I'm curious what makes you say that, I thought it looked alright...Quote:
Originally Posted by Hisa
Care to explain ?
Thanks
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I'm curious what makes you say that, I thought it looked alright...Quote:
Originally Posted by Hisa
Care to explain ?
Thanks
Sure, and sorry if Poszgay is on these boards, and I piss him off with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by JCLe
I watched the top 8 and t4 games he played with this list (Reference), so I'll make some comments about the games and boarding I saw, then the list. Done from memory as I wasn't taking notes, and I have no desire to watch those infinitely slow matches again. Also, I am by no means the law, but I've been playing and tweaking this deck for six months to great effect.
Boarding Notes:
Bringing in runed halo vs zoo? You have got to be kidding me. That card is terrible in the Zoo matchup because their threats are so diversified. He named mindslaver with it g1 (because it was that useful), then brought in two more? Game two the only relevant card named was KotR, which wasn't actually relevant, since he had the lock the entire time Runed Halo was on the table. Also, game one could have been ended 4-5 turns earlier without opening himself up to any other of her outs.
Vs the Tendrils/Doomsday/Show and Tell. I think the boarding was right. You have to run good to win this match, but, that being said, I think he had it. Solitary and humilities help. There were a bunch of misplays in the match though, and lots of sloppy play. Binning a a windswept to Solitary and not a Misty? That's just the wrong line of play, period. If you're gonna think about your turns for twenty minutes at a go (seriously though, I don't mean this as hate) don't play sloppy. There were several other incorrect lines of play in this round I noticed, though I don't recall the specifics off the top of my head (I am willing to watch the video again if people are actually interested).
Deck notes:
Runed Halo - As mentioned above, too many runed halo. The card is way way way too situational. 1 main is ok, so you have an out to ANT and the like game 1, but 2 main is wrong, as is 2 more in the board. Unless you are expecting infinite combo (which you shouldn't be in this environment) this choice is incorrect.
Blood Moon - this is bad main. it does almost nothing against zoo, goblins, 4 color top, Sneak and tell, fish ... the list goes on. It's good against junk, B/W top, BWU top and NO Bant. That's pretty much it. Not even close to a big enough portion of the field to be running it main. Wasted spot.
Solitary Confinement - I run four. I can maybe see an argument for three. Two? Wrong. Would you run one copy of Show and Tell in Sneak & Tell? All it does is fuck your consistency and make you run shitty cards like runed halo and ...
Enlightened Tutor - Fine if you only play against decks that don't run blue. Otherwise, welcome to 2-for-1. How many decks in legacy run blue? Or right.
Chrome Mox - I'm not a huge fan of Chrome Mox, but hey, maybe that's just me. I haven't tested it extensively.
Horizon Canopy - Love this.
SB
Let me get this straight, four copies of Wheel of Sun and Moon and one Choke. So the expectation is more dredge than decks with blue in them? Really? WRONG.
More enlightened tutor, more runed halo, god what a fucking mess this board is.
No Mirri's Guile, 1 Oring (outs to emrakul) in the main and SB, this list is so much less than optimal it hurts to look at. The other Enchantress list at the 5k (that pozsgay beat in the last round for the t8 spot) just looked way way way better.
Alright, thanks for explaining... the runed halo's did indeed seem like too much.
Do you have a link to that other list or do you just recall from the game?
In his defense on the Runed Halo naming, the potential on Price of Progress g2 was also significant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hisa
His G1 vs. zoo that he had locked up for forever, he was doing the same thing that I would've done. I would've suggested she concede when I get a confinement lock. After that, my goal is to do as little as possible while boring you to death while I win. I don't mean stall. I just mean that I'm going to play enough to maintain my lock and that's about it. I won't show a win condition unless absolutely necessary. Why would I want to go to game 2/3 where I could get blown out? Do I agree with the 25 minute turns? No. Do I agree with him not killing her as fast as he could have? Yes.
I missed the PoP naming. That is absolutely relevant. Not even close to justifying 4 copies of runed halo, though. Also, IIRC, decklists were available to everybody in the t8, so hiding cards isn't really effective. Not 100% on known decklists though, and I guess its a fine argument if you don't have full information.Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymos
G2 vs Doomsday/Shelldrazi I'd say he got EXTREMELY lucky landing that leyline from the start. Just about the only card that saved him. Then of course he proceeded to land all the relevant hate cards in order. Lucky lucky lucky.
I would have liked to see Enchantress take it, don't get me wrong, but the way he played the deck I just don't know how he got through 10 rounds (or was it 8?). I know he won 2 games by taking G1 and going to time G2. I guess that's just how Enchantress wins.
I'd like to believe I can play the deck with more fluidity though, he was turtling big time. And not even with difficult decisions. I have the think his motives were different than just winning the damn game. Maybe he needed to see Mary's entire decklist G1, I don't know. He looked like a novice and obviously paid the price for it.
Humility is the best answer to Doomsday Emrakul, and might be worth running as a 1-of for Etutor/Grove to find; but it might just be better to ignore that and use Oblivion Ring for the usually more common Show & Tell decks.
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by android
Hey everyone!
How beat combo decks??? Notably there is a big problem IMO: testing against most popular combo decks like ANT / TES and its variants, let me explain what's is happened recently.
I can't stop the combo. Sad but true. Even if I control a Leyline and a Null Rod turn 1. I would like to see how we can disrupt these first turn spells fast as soon as possible...
Simply opp can play Wipe Away targeting Null Rod, play Ill-Gotten Gains after (when storm count should be something like 7 ou 8) and finish with the same Wipe Away played before, plus Tutor+Tendrils targeting me, making my anti-combo cards useless.
Suggestions:
Orim's Chant and MindBreak Trap. (IMO Etherswon Canonist sucks because screw me up too much and opp still can return it to my hand with bounce spells)
Can someone help me? ><
As someone who at one pointed dedicated his entire SB hate to combo, my suggestion is to pack in some basic hate for combo (Leyline of Sanctity, Null Rod) that can be applied to other decks and just give up on that MU. I know how annoying it is to lose to combo, but something you need to recognize is that every deck has a bad MU. Sometimes it's more important for you to not compromise the SB to improve a horrible MU (Combo) and instead save the slots to keep your other MU's (Aggro/Control) in your favor. If your meta is rampant with Combo, then don't play this deck. I know, it sucks not playing a deck you really like, but you need to be a realist and play the meta. Every deck has strengths and weaknesses, and some weaknesses (Bad Combo MU) you just can't fix.
That having been said, here are a few suggestions I can provide if you're deadset against hating your Combo MU:
SB
3 Null Rod
3-4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline of Sanctity
MD
2 Oblivion Ring
2-3 Runed Halo
I'm running a Wish board, so if that's a path you want to consider going you can also give yourself access to Gaddock Teeg, The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Karakas, and Bojuka Bog.
But IMHO you're better off just running Leyline/Halo for primary Combo hate and just moving on to improve the Aggro and Control MU's.
Forlorn Egoist
That sums it up pretty well. I keep a pair of Runed Halo and an extra Solitary Confinement in my board to try to steal wins where they're slow. I've just accepted that it's bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist
Merfolk is weak to zoo. Goblins is weak to zoo. We beat Merfolk and Goblins and usually zoo. Everyone had bad matchups. Storm combo is ours.
Okay, guys, I just tested (to much delighted success) some new super-secret tech for our control MU: Primal Order. One of (if pretty much the only) good cards to come out of Homelands! Yeah, I know we already have City of Solitude and Choke but this actually punishes decks such as Lands and CounterTop-strategy decks for doing what they love to do: sit around and stall for 20 turns.
I doubt I'm ready to opt for this over the other 2, but it certainly has some merit. Anyway, just thought I'd post it to get your thoughts.
Forlorn Egoist
I just want to say, that this deck would have killed in Memphis. I has favored to highly favored MUs against every deck in the top 16, including two painter/stone decks that are cold to a Leyline of Sanctity. Sometimes I really wish I still lived in the Midwest.
Yeah, I noticed. I dunno, I'm kinda torn. On the one hand I think Enchantress could place a Top 8 at one of the upcoming Starcities, but on the other hand decks (like all things in life) are typically cooler when not everyone plays them. That's why I still play Dragon Stompy: it's fun, and I'm more than sure it won't be getting any Top 8's anytime soon. :laugh:
Forlorn Egoist
Hi Guys, i'm begining with this deck and i post my list for suggestions:
4 Argothian Enchantress
Sorcery [2]
2 Replenish
Instant [2]
2 Enlightned Tutor
Enchantment [34]
1 Aura of Silence
4 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
1 Ground Seal
1 Karmic Justice
1 Moat
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
2 Sigil of the Empty Throne
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Sterling Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
1 Words of War
Land [20]
8 Forest
3 Plains
2 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
Side (15)
x1 Aura of Silence
x4 Carpet of Flowers
x1 City of Solitude
x1 CoP: Red
x4 Leyline of Sanctity
x1 Runed Halo
x2 Wheel of Sun and the Moon
x1 Seal of Primordium
x1 Karmic Justice
It's a classic list as you see.
@ GoldenCid
What's your meta like? Your list, as you said, is pretty standard but I'm noticing a lot of 1-of's which I assume is so you can have a toolbox for answers. Perhaps we could help you refine your list if we knew what you encountered on average.
Something I would suggest (which is a general opinion I have for Enchantress builds in general) is increasing the fetch count to 6-8 as with the mass draw that we have the deck thinning is actually relevant. You may also want to consider running a singleton Plateau. Something I often found is that I'd want the red at some point but sometimes I was wishing the green from Taiga were white instead, so... yeah.
ForlornEgoist
Well, it's variable...but it's dominated by aggro (zoo, goblins and affinity), C-top variants and a few combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist
You may want to considering running 2-3 Null Rod in the SB. It shuts off affinity lands (although they still can use the "Affinity," aspect), Springleaf Drum, Arcbound Ravager and Cranial Plating. The card hits SDT and Engineered Explosives of which many if not most CounterTop decks run the Academy Ruins + Engineered Explosives combo to wreck our day. Against combo it hits LED, Petal, and Belcher. Based on what you posted it seems Null Rod would be an ideal choice.
In regards to Carpet of Flowers I'm not very fond of it. Yeah, you get extra mana acceleration but until they get the CounterTop engine online most of the decks don't care about your mana accelerants so it seems like a superfluous card to me. You'd be better of with a 2nd City of Solitude or even 1-2 Choke. A card I've recently coined for the control MU is Primal Order although this would probably be card choice #3 behind the aforementioned. Dovescape seems to be another card many other Enchantress players are fond of running in their SB.
You probably don't need that MD Aura of Silence. I've never seen much use to MD it as I rarely ever had the opportunity to accelerate it out immediately to affect the game-state. You would probably be better off just uping the O-Ring count to 2 as that will be a little bit more of a universal answer to your needs, although I don't know how often you see Affinity.
Those are my suggestions. I don't have too much to offer for the aggro MU, but typically we're able to handle aggro if we can survive past turns 4 or 5.
ForlornEgoist
Thx you a lot for your suggestions i appreciate them!Quote:
Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist
On Dovescape: I'm pretty interested on this card! But what i don't understand is its use. Yeah, you counter all your opo stuff but so the our. So...
On Affinity: well i see it often, but concerning that it think that aura of silence is too slow anyway, i think it's a good enchant to keep aside anykind of artifact or enchant at the time i up their curve...:eyebrow:
The idea of null rod sourprises me i thought that playing a not enchant in the side card was a NO for this deck.
I used to play Dovescape. I'm not sure that I can recommend it, but since all of our spells (except Argothian Enchantress) are non-creatures, it produces a bunch of birds. The cool thing is that even though your spells are countered, your Enchantress Presence, Argothian Enchantress, Sigil of the Empty Throne, etc. still trigger when you play an enchantment spell. So you get the birds and those extra cards. The weakness of Dovescape is that is costs six. Sigil or Words of War will are cheaper win conditions, so it's usually not worth paying more mana for Dovescape.
Even thought it's not an enchantement, Null Rod isn't a horrible sb choice if your meta has a bunch of artifact decks. It doesn't hurt your deck unless you run Chrome Mox.