[Deck] Burn

Vexing devil is overpowerd if your list was running figure of destiny, just replace him with vexing and you will see the results , maybe you can replace hellspark too , for my testing the devil is just 4 damage for R , because even if they have STP they will save for other creature or for gaining life...later in the game he is just a blocker or an inmenent problem for the opponent , please do not replace bolts with vexing , replace creatures like FOD,Hellspark or marauder (gg is still the best creature),..


As for thunderous wrath , is just a bad card in ur opening 7 , but if u see the card in the game dude.... that is an overpowered effect.. if you dont like risk dont play the card . if u do like run 2 and play magma jet... it helps..

I run 3 Thunderous Wrath in my Burn list. It was superb. I drew it a few times in my opener, and as my first draw while on the draw, but it did not slow down the deck at all. Actually just made my sideboarded Cave-in's easier to decide how to play.
T-Wrath added with Vexing Devil will make Burn in the right hands overpowered.

I have found that the only time people let Vexing Devil stay in play is, late game (No real surprise there, and in the second turn after a first turn Vexing Devil in which they already took 4 to get rid of.

I love both additions.

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Originally Posted by iamfrightenedtoo

I run 3 Thunderous Wrath in my Burn list. It was superb. I drew it a few times in my opener, and as my first draw while on the draw, but it did not slow down the deck at all. Actually just made my sideboarded Cave-in's easier to decide how to play.
T-Wrath added with Vexing Devil will make Burn in the right hands overpowered.

I have found that the only time people let Vexing Devil stay in play is, late game (No real surprise there, and in the second turn after a first turn Vexing Devil in which they already took 4 to get rid of.

I love both additions.

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I'm curious about how badly Thunderous Wrath affected the game when it was a dead card in game 1, and whenever Cave-In wasn't drawn (or boarded-in) for games 2 and 3. I would appreciate it if you could expound on these cases further, as I believe that these are the situations that need to be looked-into in detail given that the "5 damage for :r:" part isn't really a surprise at this point.

Shown below are some numbers that might help with these considerations:

• With [3x] Thunderous Wrath in the deck, a player would have a 31.54% chance of drawing at least one Thunderous Wrath in the opening hand.

Kind Regards,
jares

With the format being defined by fetch lands, daze, and knight it seems to me that a standby of older sligh/burn decks might be a house: ankh of mishra. Netting a single fetch is 5 damage and tempo counters now become much less effective.

Ankh sucks. Its to slow and most decks can operate with 2-3 lands. It can be dodged easily and its the worst topdeck ever.
At best its 4 damage for 2 and x for you. Run Flame Rift instead..

I am testing the following list right now and it looks pretty powerful to me.
I really don't know if 1-2 Thunderous Wraths are playable in burn, rather say "no" but let's see what the future reveals.

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Flame Rift
4 Goblin Guide
4 Hellspark Elemental
2 Keldon Marauders
4 Vexing Devil
1 Barbarian Ring
17 Mountain

I am not shure if 18 Mountains are enough. I've been playing with 19 for a long time but due to the Vexing Devils the mana costs are so low that I think that 18 is enough too.

My SB looks like this now:
4 Fearie Macabre
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Shmash to Smithereens
1 Shattering Spree
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sulfuric Vortex

I've been playtesting with thunderous as a 1 of, it has been very good to me so far. I'm interested in hearing what other peoples experience has been with him and the vexing devil. Devil has also been really good to me. I love dropping him turn 1. This is my list right now...


1 Thunderous Wrath
4 Vexing Devil
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Goblin Guide
4 Flame Rift
1 Browbeat
3 Price of Progress
4 Lava Spike
3 Fireblast
4 Scalding Tarn
15 Mountain
4 Hellspark Elemental
1 Spark Elemental

SB: 2 Anarchy
SB: 1 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast

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Originally Posted by baghdadbob

I've been playtesting with thunderous as a 1 of, it has been very good to me so far. I'm interested in hearing what other peoples experience has been with him and the vexing devil. Devil has also been really good to me. I love dropping him turn 1. This is my list right now...


1 Thunderous Wrath
4 Vexing Devil
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Goblin Guide
4 Flame Rift
1 Browbeat
3 Price of Progress
4 Lava Spike
3 Fireblast
4 Scalding Tarn
15 Mountain
4 Hellspark Elemental
1 Spark Elemental

SB: 2 Anarchy
SB: 1 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 4 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Pyroblast

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browbeat is a bad card , if you want 3cmc spells that deal 5 damage , try brimstone volley , also your sideboard is interesting , anarchy looks nice vs maverick , but what about trying chaos warp?? is really nice too , leyline of the void are bad , u cant really cast them if you are packing gy hate try something like faerie macabre , mindbreak trap is for combo i suppose?? , well i prefer pyrostatic pillar , but i normally dont pack any hate against ultrafast combo decks , i just auto-loose to them and prepare better for other matchups....ohh and spark elemental is just a bad card you shouldnt be playing this , try flame rift the fourth pop or a a sweeper effect...

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Originally Posted by CabalTherapy

I am testing the following list right now and it looks pretty powerful to me.
I really don't know if 1-2 Thunderous Wraths are playable in burn, rather say "no" but let's see what the future reveals.

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Flame Rift
4 Goblin Guide
4 Hellspark Elemental
2 Keldon Marauders
4 Vexing Devil
1 Barbarian Ring
17 Mountain

I am not shure if 18 Mountains are enough. I've been playing with 19 for a long time but due to the Vexing Devils the mana costs are so low that I think that 18 is enough too.

My SB looks like this now:
4 Fearie Macabre
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Shmash to Smithereens
1 Shattering Spree
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Sulfuric Vortex

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I wouldn't suggest going down to 18 lands, as minimizing the number of lands available will also affect the probability of the deck being able to maintain its preferred tempo. We surely would be able to successfully cast most of the cards that we have in the deck, but what's more important is that we are able to cast it at the best possible time (which can be translated simply into not missing a land drop in the first three turns). I prefer to maximize the probability of opening with 2 lands, so I run 20 lands, and use Fetch lands to control the mana-flooding.

I hope that helps.

Cheers,
jares

Quote:

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Originally Posted by baghdadbob

I've been playtesting with thunderous as a 1 of, it has been very good to me so far. I'm interested in hearing what other peoples experience has been with him and the vexing devil. Devil has also been really good to me. I love dropping him turn 1. This is my list right now...

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At this point, I would say that, if you would want to include Thunderous Wrath in the deck, then [1x] would be the safest number. Keep in mind, though, that since Burn isn't the type of deck that goes through several turns, the chances of getting a Miracle (even with a full set of Wraths) are slim.

Kind Regards,
jares

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jares

I wouldn't suggest going down to 18 lands, as minimizing the number of lands available will also affect the probability of the deck being able to maintain its preferred tempo. We surely would be able to successfully cast most of the cards that we have in the deck, but what's more important is that we are able to cast it at the best possible time (which can be translated simply into not missing a land drop in the first three turns). I prefer to maximize the probability of opening with 2 lands, so I run 20 lands, and use Fetch lands to control the mana-flooding.

I hope that helps.

Cheers,
jares

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Yes, I think that I will change my list to 19 lands which I am used to play.
-1 Hellspark Elemental
+1 Mountain

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CabalTherapy

Yes, I think that I will change my list to 19 lands which I am used to play.
-1 Hellspark Elemental
+1 Mountain

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That looks okay, given that you won't really need a full set of Hellspark Elementals to be able to utilize its strengths - in fact, having too many of those might be too much redundancy for your own good.

Cheers,
jares

Guys what about reckless abandon is that a real card for the deck??? , 4 damage for R seems great... also has good synergy with hellspark and keldon marauders... is just an incredible card ... i would run only 2 or maximum 3...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Basara

Guys what about reckless abandon is that a real card for the deck??? , 4 damage for R seems great... also has good synergy with hellspark and keldon marauders... is just an incredible card ... i would run only 2 or maximum 3...

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That card has actually been explored quite a few times in Burn, and even alongside Spark Elemental. The thing is, Burn really doesn't want to play too many creatures, and fewer creatures means lesser reliability of the card. At the end of the day, Reckless Abandon is one of those cards that adds a bit more explosiveness to the deck in exchange for a lot more inconsistency.

Kind Regards,
jares

Hi guys, is Vexing Devil working well enough for you? I don't have too much hopes on it but I haven't tested it yet. Maybe it could fit in a very aggro list. I was thinking in something like this:

3 Plateau
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Vexing Devil
4 Lava Spike
4 Bump in the Night
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 4 Searing Blaze

Spell Snare would be a dead card at least in g1 but the mana base is really terrible xD What do you think?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dewin

Hi guys, is Vexing Devil working well enough for you? I don't have too much hopes on it but I haven't tested it yet. Maybe it could fit in a very aggro list. I was thinking in something like this:

3 Plateau
3 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Vexing Devil
4 Lava Spike
4 Bump in the Night
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
SB: 3 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 4 Faerie Macabre
SB: 4 Searing Blaze

Spell Snare would be a dead card at least in g1 but the mana base is really terrible xD What do you think?

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This looks like.... Rbw Sligh?

Though this isn't much of a Burn build, I will give you my suggestions.

6 Mountains, cannot realistically support 4 Fireblasts, let alone 6 Non-Basic mountains... So I consider this mana base to be unstable if your opponent runs wasteland.
6 lands is hardly enough to support Bump in the Night's Flashback, so why run Bump at all? Searing Blaze main would be superior.

When playing burn you need to remember that you are creating virtual card advantage. This means that you play cards that make a lot of your opponents cards dead, such as board sweepers, wastelands, spot removal, etc. I think that any burn build that is missing Price of Progress is missing out on a large contributer to burn's strategy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NeoTech

6 Mountains, cannot realistically support 4 Fireblasts, let alone 6 Non-Basic mountains... So I consider this mana base to be unstable if your opponent runs wasteland.
6 lands is hardly enough to support Bump in the Night's Flashback, so why run Bump at all? Searing Blaze main would be superior.

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The number of "real" lands is not a problem. Lynx needs so many fetchs to work. You can see for example these old Lynx Burn lists:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...5&iddeck=39322
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...4&iddeck=38652

The reason for the Bump is that playing only 4 two-mana spells hasn't too much sense to me due to Spell Snare. And there are no more Burn spells that can deal 3 damage for one mana (well, maybe Shard Volley could work but it can be problematic with Fireblast).

The list pretends to be a kind of suicide deck, extremely fast but also very unstable. Anyway I recognize that the list seems quite terrible for the current meta with decks like Canadian or UR Delver (POP) that can easily punish such a weak mana base. Maybe I could try with the Shard Volley (-3 Badlands, -4 Bump in the Night, +3 Mountain, +1 Isamaru, + 3 Shard Volley) as sometimes I could use it in resp to wasteland. I just want to test Vexing Devil in a explosive list that it's where I think that it could fit better. But yep, it seems more like a 4fun list than a really competitive one.

Running 4 Vexing Devil and 4 Thunderous Wrath. Been having a great time burning everybody out. :tongue:

So, I've been testing both Thunderous Wrath and Vexing Devil...
Conclusions:
Sure Thunderous Wrath is good but it's more times bad than good. It's a blowout when you draw it because it surrounds Counterbalance and Spell Snare and also of course because it's 1 mana 5 damage but really, the amount of times it's bad gets way over the amount of times it's good. I tested over 100 times in the past month both with 1,2 and 4 copies and I didn't like it. This was my experience of course.
Maybe it was effective around 40% of the time, which for me is not enough...

About Vexing Devil well...Only! I repeat ONLY if you change for Keldon Marauders or Figure of Destiny and maybe Hellspark Elemental it'll be good. Still, I think the best change is for Figure of Destiny.
Most of the people choose to pay the 4 mana because it's agressive when it goes on the beatdown. Early game he's really good, mid game still good but late game meh:confused: not enough!
Anyway, I must still write one thing.
Against creature decks the Devil is way better then the ones we use normally. I even risk to say that after game 1, this should be the only creature in the board. (against white weenie, maverick [special], RUG,etc.)
Against Lingering Souls deck it's not very good also.

Well, I'll continue to test and I will check how things are going.

PS: Btw, I run fetchlands in my burn list and Searing Blaze is being awesome in the past weeks :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by david.gerco

Sure Thunderous Wrath is good but it's more times bad than good.

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This observation is correct, and can be supported by the mathematical probabilities that govern the game (though I'm too lazy to look into the exact numbers as of the moment). In summary, the economy of having a 5-damage spell for :r: is great, but the risk of having a dead card in hand is greater (of course, it's worth noting that it's an entirely different case when Thunderous Wrath is played alongside Brainstorm). In a competitive environment, this induced inconsistency is simply unacceptable - unless you prefer taking the high-risk, high-reward route.

I hope that helps.

Kind Regards,
jares