[Deck] Merfolk

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Originally Posted by tivadar

Perish, who cares? We already beat green and blue. It's red in the color pie that we need help with.

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Well, red is often accompanied by green. The Rock can also provide a tough match-up, and also uses green. It's not a weird thought. However, I do agree that the black splash doesn't seem worth it. But if someone mentions Smother, might as well mention Perish. Perish kills quite a few things we don't like: Goyf, Goose, Cats (Nacatl and Qasali), Thoctar, Vore, Elves, KotR and Hydras. Those are quite alot of threats in decks that aren't exactly an auto-win (Zoo, The Rock, Aggro Loam, any form of an Elf deck). There's something about one-sided Wraths of God that I like. Especially if it's not on my side :wink:

And no, Hibernation is not near as strong as Perish. With black splash, you could run maindeck Snuff Outs and have Perish sitting in the board.

The thought of having Engineered Plague is a good one too. That improves alot of match ups: Against Standstill you name Soldier, Goblins is obvious and so is Elves, against Zoo you name Wizard (Pridemage, Lavamancer and in case of Domain, Dark Confidant), against ANT Goblins (they tend to combo early with EtW if they know you play blue), against Ichorid on Horror or Illusion (or Merfolk if you need to remove some bridges, lol).

The more I think of it, the better I like the black splash.

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Originally Posted by Skeggi

...against Zoo you name Wizard (Pridemage, Lavamancer and in case of Domain, Dark Confidant)...

The more I think of it, the better I like the black splash.

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You make a strong case for Perish...

On the other hand, as far as Engineered Plague being good in the Zoo match-up, I'm not sure I agree with you 100% on your police work there, Lou. Between Adept and Cursecatcher, we run as many Wizards as Zoo does. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Skeggi

Perish kills quite a few things we don't like: Goyf, Goose, Cats (Nacatl and Qasali), Thoctar, Vore, Elves, KotR and Hydras. Those are quite alot of threats in decks that aren't exactly an auto-win (Zoo, The Rock, Aggro Loam, any form of an Elf deck).

The thought of having Engineered Plague is a good one too. That improves alot of match ups: Against Standstill you name Soldier, Goblins is obvious and so is Elves, against Zoo you name Wizard (Pridemage, Lavamancer and in case of Domain, Dark Confidant), against ANT Goblins (they tend to combo early with EtW if they know you play blue), against Ichorid on Horror or Illusion (or Merfolk if you need to remove some bridges, lol).

The more I think of it, the better I like the black splash.

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The more you think of it, the larger the laundry list of weak interactions black can potentially add gets. But you should spend as much time looking at the crappy aspects of it.

None of these interactions is worth playing Engineered Plague. I think you'd have to sideboard it because there are MUs like Merfolk.

But... would you really play it and name Soldiers against Landstill? What does that do? It stops half of the ability from Decree of Justice, if they cycle it (they still draw), and it kills off I think 3 Elspeth 1/1s. Wow, that's like the worst card in the game. Prodigal Sorcerer honestly borders on being strictly better than that.

Ok, it would be decent against Goblins or Elves. Aggro Elves less-so, because they only run a few 1-toughness creatures, and they run a ton of Lords who can straight up counter it, plus act as a creature. If they play a Lord and you play an Engineered Plague, guess who lost out on that interaction?

Against Zoo you name Wizard to kill Grim Lavamancer and give Pridemage -1/-1? Pridemage can just shoot the EP anyway. Not to mention Merfolk runs Wizards of its own, Cursecatcher and Silvergill Adept both 1-toughness.

It's also terrible against ANT. Why would you possibly want that over anything else? They only go for ETW like a quarter of the time. EDIT: and if you precast the Plague they'll just burn you out since you spent a turn adding nothing to the clock.

Naming Horror is halfway decent. I think you'd actually be better off naming Zombie, but I'm not really sure. You shut off half of their fuel for Cabal Therapy, and now even less with Bloodghast. It might be a decent nail in the coffin, but why would you want this over Relic or anything else?

I also hear that Blue Elemental Blasts are the tech against goblins ;D. Engineered plagues.. not so much, especially against landstill. After all, against landstill, you are trying to play aggro, and not control.

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Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

On the other hand, as far as Engineered Plague being good in the Zoo match-up, I'm not sure I agree with you 100% on your police work there, Lou. Between Adept and Cursecatcher, we run as many Wizards as Zoo does. :wink:

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So you board the Cursecatchers and Adepts out for the Perishes and the Plagues?

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Originally Posted by Forbiddian

But... would you really play it and name Soldiers against Landstill?

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I know for a fact that this is a correct play. You take out all their win conditions except Factories, and you have Wasteland for those. The biggest thing it does, is stop Elspeth. That's huge. Most lists don't even run DoJ anymore, and usually they don't have to get to the point where they get an Angel out of DoJ. Besides that, Engineered Plague is a proven sideboard card against Landstill for The Rock. Why wouldn't it work for any other deck that could run it?

About your other arguments: I have alot of experience with Engineered Plague (from playing The Rock, Eva Green and Team America) and it really sounds like you're just guessing (naming Zombie for Ichorid...no, no no! You want to stop from them actually having a creature to sacrifice). Try for yourself I'd say.

Anyway, as I said before, I'm not sure about the black splash, but so far only DDK comes with a reasonable argument against it and I think that problem can be solved. Engineered Plague in case of Domain Zoo it's certainly worth it because it stops Dark Confidant. In case of Naya Zoo, I probably wouldn't use it.

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Originally Posted by Skeggi

About your other arguments: I have alot of experience with Engineered Plague (from playing The Rock, Eva Green and Team America) and it really sounds like you're just guessing (naming Zombie for Ichorid...no, no no! You want to stop from them actually having a creature to sacrifice). Try for yourself I'd say.

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I used to play Ichorid back when it was just Horror, Zombie, and Illusion, and Engineered Plague was a total joke. I was never remotely afraid of that card under any circumstances. It didn't even slow me down.

You're right, I was guessing about Zombie. I know that Horror doesn't do shit. Illusion doesn't do shit. So I figured maybe Zombie might do something, but I guess not.

Anyway, now Ichorid runs four creature types. Horror, Zombie, Vampire/Spirit, and Illusion. I really have no idea what you're thinking to accomplish for 2B against Ichorid.



Like I said, if you want to shut off Elspeth, try http://magiccards.info/4e/en/94.html. It's broken. But anyway, some other things:

Elspeth is a 1-3-of, 1-of quite often, actually.
DoJ is still played, a lot. I checked around a few random Deckcheck lists, and it sees as much play as Elspeth, so saying it's gone is just silly.
Crucible of Worlds + Factory was played in every deck.
Recurring EE is also a "win-con," and handles Eplague anyway.

It's not like you even make them resign if you stop the soldier-generating ability on Elspeth. You're Merfolk, it's easier to just beat Elspeth down with Islandwalk. And at any rate, I wouldn't sideboard a card to stop 1 of my opponent's cards.



So assuming that you've given up on thinking it'll help against Zoo (killing Grim Lavamancers at the cost of having to board out Adepts (a great card against Zoo and Cursecatchers), we have:

Marginal against Ichorid.
Marginal against Landstill.
Great against Goblins.
Good against Elves.

Great against Goblins and Elves seems good since those are problem matchups whereas Landstill and Ichorid are less difficult matchups.

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Originally Posted by Forbiddian

Like I said, if you want to shut off Elspeth, try http://magiccards.info/4e/en/94.html. It's broken. But anyway, some other things:

Elspeth is a 1-3-of, 1-of quite often, actually.
DoJ is still played, a lot. I checked around a few random Deckcheck lists, and it sees as much play as Elspeth, so saying it's gone is just silly.
Crucible of Worlds + Factory was played in every deck.
Recurring EE is also a "win-con," and handles Eplague anyway.

It's not like you even make them resign if you stop the soldier-generating ability on Elspeth. You're Merfolk, it's easier to just beat Elspeth down with Islandwalk. And at any rate, I wouldn't sideboard a card to stop 1 of my opponent's cards.



So assuming that you've given up on thinking it'll help against Zoo (killing Grim Lavamancers at the cost of having to board out Adepts (a great card against Zoo and Cursecatchers), we have:

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Lol, thanks for the laugh, I needed that. The best way to beat zoo is still to attack its tempo. You need to focus on disrupting its manabase as much as possible. You could even consider playing http://magiccards.info/ch/en/21.html . Your only going to beat them if you can shut down their mana, its that simple.

a card like http://magiccards.info/mm/en/100.html could also prove testworth as a way both to get ahead and to provide evasive threats.

I agree that Plague is mostly only going to help for Elves and Goblins, but I think it could work for Landstill too. Against Ichorid, I'd rather have GY hate, Echoing Truth on zombies, and/or Propaganda before boarding in Plagues and for Zoo I've found that having tons of removal is the best option (eg. I consistently sided in 8 spot removal + 4 blue blasts in my testing, and Perish would help if you have black splash). But since Elves and Goblins are also very hard MUs, I'd say Plague still deserves a spot in the board.

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

a card like http://magiccards.info/mm/en/100.html could also prove testworth as a way both to get ahead and to provide evasive threats.

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That definitely looks like it's worth testing.

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Originally Posted by Forbiddian

Like I said, if you want to shut off Elspeth, try http://magiccards.info/4e/en/94.html. It's broken. But anyway, some other things:

Elspeth is a 1-3-of, 1-of quite often, actually.
DoJ is still played, a lot. I checked around a few random Deckcheck lists, and it sees as much play as Elspeth, so saying it's gone is just silly.

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All you're saying here is that Plague is a better choice because it also helps against DoJ, not just Elspeth. Oh, and if I want to shut off Elspeth, I think Pithing Needle is still alot better than Prodigal Sorcerer. A second Needle can be used on Mishra's or EE. Prodigal Sorcerer. Really? GTFO. Plague may not be perfect, but it's alot less dumb.

I still think the main problem with splashing black is that all the maindeck removal spells it gives you access to are restrictive in some way or another.

Perish seems pretty good for the sideboard, E Plague a little less so, but I could see using it to supplement BEB as extra Goblin Hate. But besides that, what else?

Basically, I think if y'all want to find viable reasons to splash black, you're making a concession because it gives you sub-par removal spells-- I'm not a huge fan of Snuff Out, because you'd already be running fetches, and this deck has limited defenses, it's not like you're always sitting pretty on a high life total. And I've made my case against Smother.

What you should look for is more totally kick-ass sideboard spells that you would get from splashing black. Something no one has mentioned so far is Planar Void (obviously Leyline would be horrible in this deck because you either mulligan for it or don't get to cast it.) Or perhaps even Yixlid Jailer. That's just food for thought.

Not wanting be a total noob( which is quite hard for me) but why are you guys worried about the Landstill matchup? I tested it quite some times and it's already hard to win for me even when my SB consisted of 4 Plagues and 3 Path's...

On top of that what are you going to board out? Most cards except maybe Stifle are quite good against Landstill. But Stifle might be better than Plague. Or do you board out Standstills against Landstill?

If you bring in Plague against me I'll be glad. Again sounding like a total noob, but if you are afraid of mono-colored decks with loads of permanents(Gobbo's, Elves), how would Washout work? It only buys time though.

Benie

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Originally Posted by Benie Bederios

Not wanting be a total noob( which is quite hard for me) but why are you guys worried about the Landstill matchup? I tested it quite some times and it's already hard to win for me even when my SB consisted of 4 Plagues and 3 Path's...

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Well, you should talk to Elf_Ascetic, you know him. He never lost a Merfolk match with his Landstill. And he played it alot. I think E. Plague might help.

I like the idea of Planar Void, Ichorid is coming up and isn't the best of match-ups. It also helps against enough other decks.

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Originally Posted by Skeggi

Well, you should talk to Elf_Ascetic, you know him. He never lost a Merfolk match with his Landstill. And he played it alot. I think E. Plague might help.

I like the idea of Planar Void, Ichorid is coming up and isn't the best of match-ups. It also helps against enough other decks.

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Planar Void seems like it would be halfway decent against Zoo too, since it shuts down Goyf and Lavamancer until they sac a Pridemage. Also, if they run Knight of the Reliquary, it makes that bitch look somewhat silly.

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Originally Posted by Forbiddian

Like I said, if you want to shut off Elspeth, try http://magiccards.info/4e/en/94.html. It's broken. But anyway, some other things:
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At least put some thought behind you post and mention http://magiccards.info/card.php?card=Rootwater%20Hunter ...

The more and more i think about it im enjoying the idea of a black splash much more. E. Plague on its own flips the goblin matchup alongside Snuff Out for Piledriver. And having all our non vial non standstill spells be free means every turn can be devoted to dropping more dudes.

Personally this is what im testing

3 Mutavault
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
5 Island
4 Wasteland

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Rejereey
4 Merfolk Sovereign

4 Snuff Out
4 Standstill
4 Aether Vial
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

SB:
3 E Plague
3 BEB
3 Relic
2 Jitte
2 Echoing Truth
2 Perish

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Originally Posted by Volrath

At least put some thought behind you post and mention http://magiccards.info/card.php?card=Rootwater%20Hunter ...

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Originally Posted by Skeggi

All you're saying here is that Plague is a better choice because it also helps against DoJ, not just Elspeth. Oh, and if I want to shut off Elspeth, I think Pithing Needle is still alot better than Prodigal Sorcerer. A second Needle can be used on Mishra's or EE. Prodigal Sorcerer. Really? GTFO. Plague may not be perfect, but it's alot less dumb.

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Wow, you guys are so retarded. Even after Happy Gilmore pointed out that it was a joke.

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

Lol, thanks for the laugh, I needed that.

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And are you seriously all splashing Black? It's much worse than white even when you compare it card-by-card. The only thing it brings to the table that you want that White doesn't have is Planar Void, but PV isn't all that much better than Crypt or Relic. White gets you Swords (answers Bob and Tombstalker, and do you really want to Snuff Out against Zoo?), Absolute Law, and that one shapeshifter that replaces Wakethrasher.

If Black had Swords, maybe it'd be on the table, but Snuff Out isn't good enough, and Smother is even worse. Bob and Tombstalker still see a lot of play.

And white is probably worse than mono-blue when you count color screws and wasteland/stifle vulnerabilities.

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Originally Posted by Forbiddian

Wow, you guys are so retarded. Even after Happy Gilmore pointed out that it was a joke.
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Maybe it's because we are Dutch, or that sarcasm doesn't really shine on the internet.

I still feel that white is the best color to splash, if you're going to splash a color at all. 4 Swords main with x Path in the sideboard just addresses this deck's achilles heal better than any of the alternatives.

Of course it's gonna boil down to what yr meta looks like. But just overall, I feel like efficient removal with a negligible drawback is better in this deck than the things that are being touted as reasons to splash green or black. Not to mention white gives a bunch of other stuff that could be good in various metas, like Absolute Law, Seal of Cleansing/etc, hell for a while I tested 2 Jotun Grunts in the sideboard and actually liked them pretty well, although I wouldn't run them instead of proper graveyard hate. White seems to me the most diverse of the possible splash colors in a blind meta.

Discuss.

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Originally Posted by Volrath

Maybe it's because we are Dutch, or that sarcasm doesn't really shine on the internet.

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Don't be racist, not all Dutch people are retarded.

O waait icwutudidthar, well played sir.

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Originally Posted by DukeDemonKnight

Of course it's gonna boil down to what yr meta looks like. But just overall, I feel like efficient removal with a negligible drawback is better in this deck than the things that are being touted as reasons to splash green or black.

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It doesn't boil down to your meta. There's no meta where you'd rather have Black Splash than White Splash. I think people are just excited about some new possibility and aren't bothering to step back and see if it actually has potential.

If you're going to splash a color, it has to affect the maindeck in a meaningful way. You don't go from mono to two color, which adds stifle and wasteland vulnerability (and you have to do more than -8 island, + 4 fetchlands, + 4 duals to make the splash work... honestly talk to some Merfolk players who play Stifles or anybody playing Tempo Thresh, those decks rely on color screwing opponents) just for some sideboard tech.

Swords affects the maindeck and it can board in a number of cards as good as black's. The white shapeshifter (Mirror Entity or something) is also better than Wakethrasher.

Adding an entire extra color just for Snuff Out maindeck seems ludicrous to me. WE HAVE SWORDS IF YOU GO WHITE!

In order for Black to be worth even trying over White, it has to bring other very strong cards to the maindeck. Unless you think that Snuff Out is better than Swords?!


But as a statement carrying some more force, I also think that the Mono-U version is superior to the U/w version.