Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Clearly, most of us agree that this deck needs 23+a-little land. I use 22 + Tolaria West as 23th, and dragon as the +23,5th land.
But if we are agreeing on the need of Dragon, what other card is your 61th card? Following this logic:
Lands: 23 + Dragon
Removal: 10
Permission: 10
Win: 4
Utility: 2 (3 would make 61)
What is the 3th Utility slot? Disk? Vindicate? Clique? Relic? And why is that card better then none? I understand the situation if it's a tutorable answer a la moat or crucible (note that I listed moat as removal, and crucible as win), but a Vindicate as 61th card isn't that great I think.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Mathmatically, this deck wants 23.5 lands.
Elaborate. Specifically, how many consecutive land drops do you want to make?
re: drawing two Tops: How does that ever even happen aside from your opening hand? Further, with a fetchland, they have cycling 1.
re: Counterspell: I usually want to die when this is in my opening hand against Daze aggro on the draw. It's ludicrously slow until turn four or so. It is obviously sick in the mid and late game and absurd in the mirror etc.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Here's my list for Waco, TX this Saturday (assuming it's a balanced meta with Loam/Goblins/Thresh/Landstill/combo/tribal etc).
Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Plains
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Standstill
2 Cunning Wish
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
2 Wrath of God
1 Humility
1 Nevinryall's Disk
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
2 Elsepth, Knight Errant
2 Decree of Justice
1 Eternal Dragon
SB:
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Extirpate
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Return to Dust
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Engineered Plague
2 Path to Exile
3 Negate
Mana-cost for CB/Chalice issues:
0cc - 3
1cc - 13
2cc - 5
3cc - 4
4cc - 6
5cc - 4
others - 3
This list is therefore prone to Chalice/CB@1 but you have EE/Disk/Return to Dust/Vindicate which dodges Chalice/CB to set your cards free. In an unknown meta, 2 Vindicates seems ideal for me. I haven't played at Waco so it's relatively unknown, and I feel assured with a list that's more flexible yet without losing power. The list I'm playing has a little less draw power, but much more diverse answers in game 1. Post-board games should be in my favor. I'm still reluctant to cut Return to Dust since it's saved my ass a couple of games, although it's the rarest tutor since with Disk, you can Wish for ETutor and blow up the artifacts/enchantments anyway.
3 Negates is good. I've been testing 2 Negates, 1 Forbid and I never wished for Forbid. Discarding 2 cards isn't cool since this deck is about resources. And if you did discard 2 cards, it means you're winning more since if you're not winning more and you're discarding 2 cards, then you've just lost 2 cards to answer the next dangerous threat.
I'm only playing 2EPlague. My strategy against Ichorid/tribal is to pack 2 EPlague, 2 Wrath, 6 StP effects. StP effects alone should stay a game good enough (think of it as game 1 but better with more STP and answers). Against Elves or green tribal, I'm wary of Grips, but since I have 3EE, 1 Disk, 1 Humility, 2 Plague, they have 4 Grips, I should be fine anyway since them gripping = them losing possible MD space for more threats.
I'm a big fan of MTutor, and after debating the last slot with:
VClique, 4th Standstill, 3rd Vindicate, 3rd Wish, 4th Brainstorm, 4th snare, 3rd Top, I preferred MTutor as a silver bullet to grab anything that I need (wincon = Decree, sweeper = Wrath, CB/Chalice destroyer = Vindicate, other answers = Wish, Counterspells = FOW/Snare/CS). I most likely will replace it with the 4th Snare if testing isn't good tonight.
This last slot is still flexible and after testing tonight, I'll see if I hated MTutor at all. If I don't and it adds to consistency and tutoring for needed answer, I'll play with 2 Extirpates in the board and maybe even 2 pulses so I can board one in the MD and leave one in the SB so I can Wish or MTutor them, increasing the chances of seeing the needed spell in my bad matchups.
Testing results will come tonight. Wish me luck. (By the way, after this tourney, I'm back to working my old old old UWg Loamstill that I've been advocating I think 30 pages back lol).
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
klaus
+ FOW & CS, Top and Brainstorm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ectoplasm
Vindicate? :D
My apologies if I'm a little bit less that perfectly precise here, I write at work and I'm a little distracted. I also had a much longer post written, but it was really windbagg-y, so I shortened it. Apparently some of the meaning of the post was lost. I'll try to explain again.
Tarmogoyf is "the most efficient threat". Every aggro deck, generally, wants to see him, and play him. (And Aggro-Control wants to protect him.) Because of this, aggro decks want to have as few cards as possible so they see TMET as often as possible. You see? Tarmogoyf is “the best” card in the deck.
Landstill doesn’t have a “best” card in the deck because it’s not a threat deck, it’s an answer deck. “The Most Efficient Answer” would be something like
Force of Elephant 4UU
Instant
You don’t have to play ~’s mana cost.
Choose one: Destroy any number of target permanents or counter target spell or counter target activated or triggered ability.
Split Second
That would be about perfect (it still doesn’t kill shroud creatures, but we’ll try to contain the pain). But we don’t have that and are forced to work with what we have. And while force of will is useful facing a lethal fireball, it’s not useful facing down lethal goyf damage. Similarly, while Vindicate is a great card, if you top-deck it facing down a nimble mongoose, it’s not going to save you. Brainstorm and Top aren’t answers, they help you hit the answers you need (force or swords or wrath of god or whatever). We are forced to live under a patchwork umbrella of answers which won’t completely keep out every threat. The additional protection you gain from running the single additional card is, I think, more useful than living with a 60 card restraint. Running 37 non-land cards allows you to have a better umbrella, even if it’s technically incorrect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
frogboy
Elaborate. Specifically, how many consecutive land drops do you want to make?
Well that’s the rub, isn’t it? I want four in the first four turns, two of which tap for white, and hopefully one of which (at least) taps for blue. But if I’m facing merfolk or tempo thresh or eva green or team america, I’ll need more than that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crz87
Wish me luck.
Good luck! Your list is interesting. It looks like you've cut some draw--a standstill, a brainstorm, fact or fiction--for space to run more answers. Let us know how it goes.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
What a bullshit. Clearly, there are better answers then other. Should a deck run 1 Terror, 1 Diabolic Edict and 1 Disenchant, settle for 61 cards, or run Vindicate twice? The goal of the deck doens't state the number of cards that is optimal, it will always be 60. (Unless you're running Battle of Wits). IMO, Disk is definitly the weakest card in the deck. Or crucible, or whatever. The point is, there is a card weaker then the rest. The only reason I can understand for running 61 cards is to fix your ratio's between land:removal:permission:win. I don't think it's necessary, though. By just altering the cards (run a BS, top or dragon more) or altering your playstyle, you'll be able to run a deck with 60 cards consistently.
Moss, you said 61 is good, 62 is bad for consistenty. 61 is just as bad, but a little less obvious. Please explain why 61 is better then 60.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Lands
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
3 Plains
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl
3 Brainstorm
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Standstill
3 Cunning Wish
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
2 Wrath of God
1 Humility
1 Nevinryall's Disk
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
2 Elsepth, Knight Errant
2 Decree of Justice
1 Eternal Dragon
SB:
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Extirpate
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Return to Dust
3 Path to Exile
3 Negate
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Engineered Plague
Mana-cost for CB/Chalice issues:
0cc - 3
1cc - 12
2cc - 5
3cc - 5
4cc - 6
5cc - 4
others - 3
Testing yesterday:
Aggro Loam (pre-board) 1-2
Aggro Loam (post-board) 1-1
ANT (pre-board) 1-2
ANT (post-board) 2-1
Survival Elves (pre-board) 2-0
Pox (pre-board) 2-0
Burn (pre-board) 1-2
Trends that I noticed: The matchup pre-board v.s. aggroloam is tough. Their gameplan nullifies your attempt to 1for1 or xfor1 them. If they get loam going, you're in bad shape. Wishing for Extirpate on Loam slows them but they have 3 Burning Wish to fetch the other in the SB. Vore is the main threat, and Devastating Dreams is a huge one that is salvagable by Snares. Everything is a goddamn threat. Bobs/Goyfs/Vores/Seismic/Loam. You want to save StP on Vores and playing against this deck is tough because of the more limited choices you can play your deck. I.e. you can't just snare bob/goyfs when risking yourself to possible DD. Their recursion really nullifies your removal (non-StP removal).
Postboard Relics helped a lot. I want to play 4 Relic, which should help the Dredge matchup, but the deal with Aggro-Loam is that they tend to board out Vores, knowing the hate's in. Humility becomes less potent when they bring in grips. Overall, this isn't a good matchup even post board. It's in our favor, but it's a tough matchup to play, and very easy to make play mistakes. I've tweaked my list for 3 Paths in the SB due to this matchup, and the fact that Path should improve other aggro-matchups as well (I used to run 2 Paths postboard).
Vindicate was good all day, although 3cc sorcery is still a bugger lol. Vindicate would shine in the mirror against Planeswalkers. I think Vindicate is the right decision for an unknown meta. Return the Dust was very relevant for me in the SB and it gave me outs to Crucible/Wastelock and nuking Survival.
I don't feel secure against the combo matchup without hate-bears. But I thought about it more, they're going to hate on the hate-bears anyway, so just deal with it. I wished landstill has a better clock, which is why I liked the hate-bears for nullifying ANT. I might play 2-3 Canonist to house Enchantress as well. But right now, I'm not sure about the TX metagame. Should be more aggro-focused according to my friends, so EPlague stays in. I won against ANT because I drew way more countermagic. 7 Chant ANT is pretty scary for this deck though since we're not relying on CB to help out, so it's going to be 1fo1 or 2for1 in their favor as they bait out counters and FOWs.
I've decided on 3 Cunning Wishes after testing. I feel that most of the games, I've won or recovered from Cunning Wish. MTutor's only drawback was the card disadvantage. It's still HUGE in the deck due to its ability to fetch so much in the deck, but I realized that I wanted to escape another 1cc slot against Chalice/Countertop.
Cunning Wish seemed good since it could fetch me:
ETutor - If I'm in good board position, I'll grab Standstill
- If I'm not in good board position, it grabs Disk/Humility
Negate - Against FOW/combo etc
Pulse - Needless to say
Extirpate - Always good in the mid-game when cards are in the yard and you can get rid of what's potentially a threat in future turns e.g. Tombstalker or Wastelock.
Path - the crucial creature removal.
Return to Dust - There's always going to be a target. Just relying on EE and Disk doesn't do it for me. Now I have 3 EE, 3 Wish, 1 Disk as outs to arti/enchant hate.
Then again, I might swap the 3rd Wish for the 4th Standstill. As far as I know, I think it's wrong not to play 4 Standstill. I'm just worried about an unknown meta being vial/Dreadstill infested, which it probably will be.
I'm just wondering who has tested 3 Wish builds? The thing I note that if the 3rd Wish is winning more, that's not too bad since you can grab ETutor to secure a win to prevent them from recovering (Standstill/Disk/Humility). Most cases, Wish saves my ass out of tight corners (aggro/control alike). What W,B,U instant mass removal is available as a wish target? If there's one, I'd drop to 1 Wrath MD and a Wishable Wrath in the SB since I'm running Vindicate.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Elf_Ascetic
IMO, Disk is definitly the weakest card in the deck. Or crucible, or whatever. The point is, there is a card weaker then the rest. The only reason I can understand for running 61 cards is to fix your ratio's between land:removal:permission:win. I don't think it's necessary, though.Moss, you said 61 is good, 62 is bad for consistenty. 61 is just as bad, but a little less obvious. Please explain why 61 is better then 60.
QFT. 61 decreases the consistency. Why should we handicap ourselves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chapin
[B] 2) My mana ration requires 25.5 land if I were 60, so I'm playing 25 in a 61 (or 62).[/B]
You are rationalizing the terrible. (You want to draw those Natural Orders, right?) I'll admit I've been guilty of this before, but it is wrong. First, you have so many ways to add the equivalent of fractional amounts of mana to your deck. Ending up with a fractional amount (if it's even really what you need / want) should not be a problem.
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/s...hat_of_it.html
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/s..._Roulette.html
Quote:
What W,B,U instant mass removal is available as a wish target? If there's one, I'd drop to 1 Wrath MD and a Wishable Wrath in the SB since I'm running Vindicate.
Wing Shards? It's really slow, and if you are playing Path in the side as well, it's not worth running. It's nice against random, but Path is more effecient, and rarely will it storm for two or more. The other ones I can think of are narrow; Fracturing Gust and Tsabo's Decree. Enlightened Tutor out of the wish-board can fetch "mass removal", in the form of Explosives, Humility, or Disk. It's card-disadvantage, and super slow, however. (2U+W+a draw step+at least 2) The gatherer shows a card called Retaliate, but it's really bad. 2WW Instant destroy all creatures that dealt you damage this turn. Seize the Soul can act as a two-for one, but it's costs BB, and can't hit W or B creatures.
Quote:
Seize the Soul 2BB
Instant
Destroy target nonwhite, nonblack creature. Put a 1/1 white Spirit creature token with flying onto the battlefield.
Haunt (When this spell card is put into a graveyard after resolving, exile it haunting target creature.)
When the creature Seize the Soul haunts is put into a graveyard, destroy target nonwhite, nonblack creature. Put a 1/1 white Spirit creature token with flying onto the battlefield. (kill a dude, haunt token, throw token in front of a guy to kill him.)
Quote:
I'm just wondering who has tested 3 Wish builds?
I used to run 3 Wish, 0 Fact, and now I run a 2/2 split. I thought about running three to be able to see cards like Pulse faster against sligh, and maybe add more bombs in the side to Wish for, but for now I'm playing just two. With three they can clog your hand and in some matchups, but if you play multiple Path that shouldn't be a problem.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I might do 2 Wish, 1 Fact. The problem now is my 4cc slot is tight:
2 Wrath
1 Humility
1 Disk
2 Elspeth
That's six 4cc slot. I can push it with a FoF but I don't feel comfortable playing eight 4cc slots and play against matchups where I cannot hit my 4th land as consistently as I want to, or matchups that end before 4cc. How did you find your 4cc slots? Perhaps you were playing speedstill with no wrath? I might drop down to 1 Wrath, but 2 Wrath has been good for me all the time, even in 1 for 1 Goyfwraths or Stalkerwraths.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I don't think you need to be too concerned with running more 4 drops. I remember a conversation I had with Moss awhile back that included the phase: "We run so many unfair cards." This got me thinking about Humility, Elspeth, FOF, and Disk. All cost 4, all are insanely good even on their own. How often do you lose when you have 4 or 5+ mana in play? I know that answer for me isn't very often. In closing, our 4 drops > format. No need to cut them.
BTW: I finally blocked progenitus with a factory at my last tournament. Hoorah!
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
The problem with having 8 4cc cards is that a significant part of the meta won't let you get to 4cc easily and some won't let you keep it (particularly on-color) when you do get there. I hate to go back to the Tao of Landstill, but a huge part of what we do well is not beat ourselves.
A 61 card deck with 7 or 8 4cc cards is just spitting in the wind. It'll look great when it clicks and it will fail to click more often than a 60 card deck with 6 4cc spells.
Consistency has to be the hallmark of an archetype like this.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I used to run only 1 wrath of god in my landstill builds, having 4 swords, 3 ee and 2 wishes that can get 2 path or 1 slaughter pact have been ok for me to control creature decks.
my 4c spells consist in:
2 elspeth
1 wog
1 humility
1 moat
1 fof
having moat+humilty locks the game totally agaisnt most decks in the format, but i'm thinking on replacing the moat for another wog since pridemage came out. that cat sucks.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rockout
I don't think you need to be too concerned with running more 4 drops. I remember a conversation I had with Moss awhile back that included the phase: "We run so many unfair cards." This got me thinking about Humility, Elspeth, FOF, and Disk. All cost 4, all are insanely good even on their own. How often do you lose when you have 4 or 5+ mana in play? I know that answer for me isn't very often. In closing, our 4 drops > format. No need to cut them.
BTW: I finally blocked progenitus with a factory at my last tournament. Hoorah!
I run 8 4c cards, and Konsultant runs 10.
I have 2 Elspeth, 3 DoJ and 3 WoG. Konsultant has that plus 2 Disks. Also, when we cast EE, we tend to invest an average of 4+ mana on it.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I believe in the current models that I play that there are 4 overall utility slots. If you look at the previous posts by me and look at any of my models you will see I label as so.
The problem is this: When you have 4 utility slots you also need to have even numbers across the board for your different suits I.E. removal, draw, permission, win. Now granted in a metagame like todays it's much easier to see that if your playing a heavier aggro/ aggro control lineup then perhaps the removal suit should be heavier then the permission etc. The Model's I present to everyone are specific models against a general consensus of the meta-game; so any specific meta-tuning is up to you all.
Back to the point: in order to satisfy my requirements and have 4 utility slots you are more then likely playing 61 cards based on a 23 land mana base. I feel like the 2% chance you take in drawing inefficiency more then makes up for it in overall card quality.
I personally run one of the lowest curves in this thread. I have for a long time. that doesn't mean that I don't believe that other cards are bad, outdated, etc. I personally don't pay as much attention to the 4cc cards as I do the 2-3 drops this deck has to offer. To give you an idea the normal landstill list runs something like 2.6 ish for an average curve "maybe more."
At one point my curve was 2.18 which was a laugh riot to me because I was running 17 1cc cards. I still beat half the format, but the ends more then justified the means so I went back to running a much more top heavy version of the deck in order to beat normally winnable but happened to be problem matchups for me.
Consensus:
My model is the best, you all should run it and see how great I am. (extreme sarcasm)
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citrus-God
I run 8 4c cards, and Konsultant runs 10.
I have 2 Elspeth, 3 DoJ and 3 WoG. Konsultant has that plus 2 Disks. Also, when we cast EE, we tend to invest an average of 4+ mana on it.
The "extra" 4 drops do require you play a tighter game the first few turns of the game. Don't piss away your Force on something that isn't really that relevent. They are also considerably stronger cards than most decks play. My wins have been easier than ever with this build. Pretty much I hit my 4th land cast one spell and realistically my opponent's begin to lose. Mana denial decks are a factor but then again they do give us a side board.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Konsultant, mind posting a list? I know the ones at Hadleys included lots of FoF, which I'm a fan off. I've just not been experienced with playing with so many 4cc spells, partly because my meta is so LD-based lol.
Also, just curious, what are your real names on deckcheck?
Konsultant
Moss
Citrus-God
I believe you guys were the top8s at Hadley?
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crz87
Konsultant, mind posting a list? I know the ones at Hadleys included lots of FoF, which I'm a fan off. I've just not been experienced with playing with so many 4cc spells, partly because my meta is so LD-based lol.
Also, just curious, what are your real names on deckcheck?
Konsultant
Moss
Citrus-God
I believe you guys were the top8s at Hadley?
Real names:
Since konsultant rarely posts on here and probobly wont see it. Konsultant's name is Geoff Smelski. My name is Joel Ferris. I don't know Citrus god, but I have his aim :).
Also Rockout, Konsultant, and another Team Left Fielder Top8'd Hadley, not me.
but I would like to mention that I haven't placed out of the top2 since Chicago in any tourney i've been in so far. I'm also in the source Legacy tourney if that means anything to you guys.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crz87
Konsultant, mind posting a list? I know the ones at Hadleys included lots of FoF, which I'm a fan off. I've just not been experienced with playing with so many 4cc spells, partly because my meta is so LD-based lol.
If your meta is full of LD (meaning Aggro Loam, Sui and Stax. Merfolk and Tempo Thresh excluded), you should be running a better deck for that metagame instead of playing Landstill. Try something like Ichorid or Merfolk. But that's my opinion as a competitive magic player. If you want my advice on FoF and Landstill, it's good against LD. Sure you need to build up to 4 mana, but against LD, you will on average have 4 mana in play regardless due to you having such a high land density. So cast FoF, they'll separate those cards in one of those boring land vs. spells piles, and just proceed to stabilize. If you're playing against Merfolk or Tempo Thresh, just learn how to be patient and you'll win (I'm sorry that was brief, vague and lame, but that's always been how I approached those decks in testing).
Quote:
Also, just curious, what are your real names on deckcheck?
Citrus-God
Oh man, the last time I even Top 8 was with UGW CounterTop Thresh. That was a long ass time ago. But even if I play, the tournaments I play at dont put their Top 4-8 decklists on deckcheck.net.
Also, I havent played in a tournament for 4 months. I do playtest with my team still, so I'm still sharp enough to play magic properly. I'm sure I could Top 8 a tournament easily with Landstill. Especially with the new addition of SDTs in the maindeck and Counterbalances in the board.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I've noticed our transvestite friend Meddling Mage falling out of grace lately, any specific reason to it? He/she seems like a real swiss army knife that can help in so many matchups, from siding him/her in against burn for dead cards like wog to shutting down aggroloam and annoying ichorid, posing a roadblock to TES/ANT, it just seems like a really solid sideboard slot to me.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ectoplasm
I've noticed our transvestite friend Meddling Mage falling out of grace lately, any specific reason to it? He/she seems like a real swiss army knife that can help in so many matchups, from siding him/her in against burn for dead cards like wog to shutting down aggroloam and annoying ichorid, posing a roadblock to TES/ANT, it just seems like a really solid sideboard slot to me.
theres more aggro in the format then combo or control (Bad) because of this control decks are packing more removal (bad) combo decks are faster (If they beat you it's going to be based on you not having an answer versus it being specificly MM.) This is also the reason why we play negate.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
So apparently I didn't top 8 the source tourney. Opponents not showing up is just a bitch. I would have finished 4-1-1 and instead finished 3-1-2
