i think that 1 grim tutor is the way to go 1 more business and it's cute and expensive
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i think that 1 grim tutor is the way to go 1 more business and it's cute and expensive
Man, that is an old-school list. Looks like ANT from like 3 years ago. Cool to see people still playing what they love (even if I can't get behind the choices...).Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
It seems like that list might have trouble getting thresh consistently by turn 3 with the Burning Wishes and Chrome Moxen and no free cantrips. What's your take on that?
To people playing Carpet - I'm very confused by its inclusion. What do you board out to bring in Carpet? What does it actually help you accomplish, and where do you bring it in?
Just from watching ANT on feature matches, I've seen it sit on the board and make 4 mana while the player is desperately trying to do anything but make land drops, and I've also seen it in play against thresh where it made like 1 or 2 irrelevant mana. Like...isn't ANT already good at making lots of mana between Cabal Ritual and 15 lands?
I board in Carpet of Flowers against most blue matchups like Stoneblade, RUG and so on.Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
I do not use it against fast blue decks like Reanimator or SnT (Xantid Swarm would be good here ^^)
It mainly makes your time a lot easier against taxing counters. You drop in in the early turns and in your combo turn you will have enough mana to pay for their counters.
It can also be used like rainbow rituals, playing them in mainphase 1 and switching directly to mainphase 2 to get the mana. Because of this I usually take out 1 or 2 Cabal Ritual and 1 other card for my Carpet of Flowers.
Carpet of Flowers also serves as unwasteable rainbow mana. Just deal with their hardcounters and you are good to go ;)
Greetings Mindlash
I've fiddled between Carpet and Xantid. It usually depends on what you expect. I usually go with Xantid because we really do need a silence effect against Leylines/Griselbrand and I only really want Carpet against RUG. As for Bob in the Sb, I have had it before but realized you don't want to play that game. Against jund, they will still have Lilianas. You also don't want to dilute your deck. Here is my SB:
4x Abrupt Decay
3x Xantid Swarm
3x Slaughter Pact
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Tropical Island
1x Karakas
1x Tendrils of Agony
I hate boarding in abrupt decay against non CB decks because it is so horrendous with Ad Nausem and against Wasteland. You usually are against GY hate post board so Pact makes your Ad Nausems stronger. I've also considered 1x Empty in the side but havn't got around to actually testing it.
@Phazon: I just don't get a list with Probes to work like I want it to. So I decided to run a list that works more smoothely, though it's probably suboptimal. You know, a list is only as good as the pilot can get it to be, and I seem to mess up every time I play a list with Probes, so the cut seemed logical. At least, according to Spock. :tongue:
I had no real issues in getting Threshold on turn 3. One time my first Cabal Ritual was unthreshed, but my second was threshed. And once I wanted to go off and use Chain of Vapor as a Storm engine, which would bounce my Petal, sac a land and then bounce my LED, but when I cast my LED my opponent countered it with FoW. So no chance to use Chain of Vapor to fill up my yard with both it and the land I would sac. That was the weird match against EsperBlade by the way. He made some odd choices. Of course going off at that moment was wrong in retrospect since he had a FoW plus a blue card, but he had already burned a FoW by then, so I thought I should give it a shot.
An opponent at the Sunday IQ kept a hand of fetch, Ponder, Force, Sneak Attack, Griselbrand, and Leyline of Sanctity x2 on the play. Needless to say, I won on turn 3 thanks to double Xantid Swarm.
I think it's actually NEEDFUL for you to say how you did it. Double chain or goblins?Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
This thread drives me crazy. There is almost no useful information here. Just fanboys arguing over which storm deck is better. Or whether Burning Wish is good in ANT.
Get this... Both decks have pros and cons. Get over it.
Like!Quote:
Originally Posted by AlleywayJack
That's what happens when a deck has so few customizable slots and everything has already been talked through. It is not like we are expecting M14 or Theros to really change what cards we are going to use.Quote:
Originally Posted by AlleywayJack
Honestly, what useful information are you looking for? No one gets good at storm by listening to randos on the internet jawbone about their favorite build; they have to learn by experience. The biggest change in 2 years was Past in Flames...as a more efficient IGG. A year before that it was Probe...as a more efficient Thoughtseize. This year it's Abrupt Decay...as a more efficient Wipe Away. The deck doesn't fundamentally change. And clearly it's still possible to do well without new tech - Asthereal and others will advocate for that. So again, what do you want us to be talking about in here other than arguing for marginal differences between decks?Quote:
Originally Posted by AlleywayJack
Tournament reports, SB'ing suggestions, interesting or difficult scenarios you've come across and what lines of play you chose and actual reasons behind deck decisions. Civil conversation would be neat too!Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
He Forced my turn 1 Swarm, so I resolved another one on turn 2, and I made 18 Goblins on turn 3. His turn 2 land that he topdecked was an Ancient Tomb, so that made the 18 gobos enough to kill in one swing if he ever activated the land. I boarded in my 1 Echoing Truth for situations like this though, but my hand wasn't nearly powerful enough to find the bounce spell and PiF kill him that turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
I think it's fine for people to debate Burning Wish in this thread. I mean isn't the point of discussion to come up with an optimal list? Jay, you were the most vocal about wanting to debate Burning Wish from the beginning, and you said people are "idiots" if they don't play Ad Nauseam in this deck.
What is the merfolk matchup like without red for Pyroblasts? I understand you have A. Decay, but I find it hard to believe that the match up is a favorable matchup. I know that Swarms are decent against merrow as was spoken about earlier in the thread, but between their crazy critter base and them being even a moderately competent player in the form of knowing what to counter (tutors, Swarms/Carpets, PiF, AN, etc.), it seems pretty scary. Looking for advice on how to play against it apparently.
-ABC
Against Merfolk it plays out like that:
- Do I have Swarm? Resolve that and you're golden.
or
- Do I have enough (fast) mana to pay for taxing counters? If yes you're golden.
Usually they have only FoW as real counters and basically no removal for your Swarm. So you "just" have to create tons of mana to pay for the taxing counters before they kill you with their fish...
Abrupt Decay (and Pyroblast) are kinda bad as you don't want to expose yourself to Wasteland if you don't have to.
So if you're playing green I'd only board in Xantid Swarm (and Carpet of Flowers), no Decay, no blast.
BTW has anybody time and experience enough to write a proper primer?
I've often wondered myself what kind of Merfolk match up we have. (Un)fortunately(?) there are no Merfolk players in my local meta whatsoever so I haven't had a chance to test it. I would imagine in it's in the medium-to-hard bracket due to a very fast clock when completely undisrupted combined with a lot of main deck counterspells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
On another note I'd like to report my latest tournament experiences:
Having picked up ANT roughly two months ago I'm still in my infancy as a pilot of the deck, but I have been getting the hang of things recently at least to a point where I'm no longer making glaring errors (or so I hope ;)). I've exclusively been playing a list with Burning Wish, but yesterday I had prepared a deck without Burning Wish, more in the UB Adam Prosak vein. I started playing some test games against a friend of mine playing BG Pox. Already there I felt uneasy as soon as Deathrite Shaman hit the board and I was looking at my hand with my single win con Tendril's of Agony that I had topdecked into on turn 3. Certainly not an unwinnable situation at all, but the DRS just made my Tendrils awkward, as a single discard spell and subsequent DRS activation would end my game on the spot unless I could find a brainstorm to hide it / shuffle it away.
During the actual tournament I ran into similar situations where it just felt incredibly vulnerable and unflexible without the Burning Wishes. I'm hesitant to pass judgement on the actual functional merits of either deck, but suffice to say it definitely suits my style of play and my temperament as a player to play a version of ANT that runs Burning Wish.
Having said all that I'd like to hear what people think about the following sideboard:
2x Xantid Swarm
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Virtue's Ruin
1x Duress
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Chain of Vapor
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Past in Flames
I've opted to drop Ill-Gotten Gains as I asked myself how often I've ever played it and the answer was disturbingly close to nil. Maybe I'm just not skilled enough to be playing it, but it just often seems completely irrelevant when an opponent has counter magic in his yard, which is a frequent occurance ;)
The two Sensei's Divining Tops used to be Carpet of Flowers, but I just feel that I already have the two swarms for fighting decks with islands in them (two different approaches, I know), and the top is just a bloody amazing Card when facing discard.
These four should suffice:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempus
Adam Prosak: Legacy Storm Primer.
Timo Schünemann: The Legacy Laser - UBR Ad Nauseam Tendrils.
Carsten Kotter: Eternal Europe - The Cabal Rises.
Ari Lax: Legacy Storm Primer (a bit outdated, but still very well written, thorough, and relevant).
I learned Storm with this artikel, too and all of them are Great. Mention that the only List playing burning wish is Schünemann's and he swiches to 16 cantrips and 4 infernal Since abrupt decay is legal.
(shhhh... Dont Play wish ;))
I solved the 5th Business spell and Grim tutor is a Bad Card - Problem
By playing Empty MD. You Board it in against Rug and Bug, wich are Not your best matchups, so having it Main can only help.
what is ad nauseam? baby don't hurt me, no moreQuote:
Originally Posted by Asgar
it remains the question what value EtW has if you have to cast 2 turns of cantrips to find it and still Need to generate the 3R. This deck cannot dump a T1/2 EtW like it's brother and so I asume EtW is too slow as a threat and if it's expectable to infernal for it, isn't PIF the superior choice as a Tutor Target in like 90% of all cases?
These were exactly my thoughts about EtW. It is to slow in Cantrip ANT and you nearly never need it if Infernal Tutor is available.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
In TNT EtW was useful in the SB if you could use Burning Wish Turn 1 or 2 and not generate enough Storm to kill with Tendrils.
Turn 3 EtW is not likely to win you the game in most cases.
Greetings Mindlash
if you want more bussiness, grim tutor is the answer. playing 3 preordain and 1 grim is the best option for me
I tried it in TNT with BW and Grim in my SB and in ANT with 1 / 2 Grim Main...I do not like this card.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberTooth
But on the other hand I have never had buisness problems with 16 cantrips so far.
Grim hurts too much in some matchups. 3 Life on AN flip and 3 Life while casting it are a bunch of life. Same goes for flashbacking it.
It is probably the next best tutor after Infernal Tutor in ANT, but for me the cantrips list works out better.
Greetings Mindlash
of course, grim tutor sucks as a card, but i feel better playing it, i suppose that is a personal preference, and after all, ant's ad nauseam sucks alreadyQuote:
Originally Posted by Mindlash
Yeah thats true...when I am playing TES I enjoy playing AN alot. It is almost impossible to fizzle it with all the initial mana sources and low cmc cards. I rarely use it in ANT though. But I would not cut it entirely. There are just those fast and easy wins here and there.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberTooth
And you can also use at as a super draw spell from time to time. Natural drawn AN can also be a strong option in ANT. I am not willing to exchange it entirely for EtW...at least not maindeck.
Greetings Mindlash
yeah, if you cut ad nauseam for etw you are doing something wrong
Is Grim Tutor even a viable option in the sideboard when playing Burning Wish?
The only time you'd get Grim with your wish is when you can PiF for the win. And for that to be the case you'd need A LOT of ritual effects in your hand (and possibly in your GY too). So, sure, if your hand is something like: 2x Dark Ritual, 1x Cabal Ritual (threshold), 2x LED and Burning Wish, but no Infernal Tutor in the GY, AND you have red producing land, you could make enough mana to burning wish -> grim tutor -> past in flames and win with Grim. You'd also need to be on at least 7 life.
With no Grim Tutor in the board the above hand would be limited to "just" making 14 goblins with EtW...
Wouldn't then one Grim Tutor be better in the actual main deck? I'm thinking something along the lines of a 4/2/1 split of Infernal/Bwish/Grim.
I have a Reforge the Soul on side for that situation. During my last tourney I didn't use it, but I was glad I had the option regardless.Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
(Note that Diminishing Returns can exile all your wincons, and it eats your graveyard, which makes Cabal Ritual and a potential follow-up Past in Flames worse.)
Why would you run full 3c ANT for Wish and still run the crap that Grim Tutor is?
grim tutor is bad, i prefer 3 wishes in tnt, because bw doesn't search only for the grim, and you dont really need so much mana, you can bw on your second turn for grim tutor and go off turn 3
You could also get Grim Tutor on turn 2 with Burning Wish and go for the kill the turn after.Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
Sometime you just do not want to BW into Empty or you have no second tutor in your hand to BW into PiF / IGG or your storm is to low for ToA. In that case you get yourself the Grim Tutor one turn earlier. Beeing able to perform it all in one turn is just a bonus.
You could probalby play something like 3 Infernal, 3 BW, 1 Grim with one Infernal in your SB or 4 BW and 3 IT...but I don't think it is a good idea to play less then 4 Infernal Tutor main.
Greetings Mindlash
Edit: Just got ninjaed a lot of times :D
I would say PiF is better than Empty maybe 80% of the time. That 20% when you want a fast Empty just steals games. I won with Empty 3 times at the IQ and PiF every other game. Those 3 times I won with Empty definitely mattered, even if they were less than the number of times I cast PiF. Ad Nauseam is just an unreliable card and is absolutely terrible against blue tempo decks that pressure you early. Ad Nauseam is a fine card in matchups that we already win easily with PiF. It's like an easy button when you don't have patience and want to get excited by variance. All I can say is to try Empty. Maybe you'll like it, and maybe you won't, but I have played both Ad Nauseam and Empty, so I am just drawing from my experiences with the cards. Not running Ad Nauseam also lets you run Grim Tutors for added consistency and not make you feel like you have to play some number of bad cards like Chrome Mox.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
and still deathrite shaman and pulse can destroy you, but well, to me, ad nauseam, is a neccesary evil
Deathrite Shaman is mediocre at best against PiF. I rarely have trouble beating it. And with Pulse… Just don't Empty into a Pulse haha. You have Probes and tons of discard to know whether or not Empty would be good against a particular deck or good in a certain situation. You can also flashback Therapies with goblin tokens. With Ad Nauseam, CREATURES can destroy you… Which is very sad. I like not caring about what their stupid Delvers are doing in the first 3 turns.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberTooth
No it´s damn good. Before, losing to a discard deck was just a really terrible bizzare painful accident... Like t1 DRS and die xx turns later having t2 in hand entire game... Stupid and unfortunate... since printing of Thalia you randomly face lame t2 funhosers that actually kill you... so thats how Zoo players felt all the time... At least that used to be fun for one side of the table, fast and face it, for bringing knife into a gunfight they deserved it... Raping the saying further actual situation is better described like fork vs. spoon in a knifefight, more of a gathering than a magic...Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
what is this I don't even?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
Haha! Yeah my Google translator didn't work when I plugged it in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
Deathrite by himself is not scary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
Deathrite + discard is a bit scariear, since they can get your tutors/bombs/rituals and remove them.
Deathrite + discard + counter is a nightmare.
Does anyone have any advice in regards to the Mono-U OmniTell matchup? I played against it two weeks ago and between their abundance of counterspells, Brainstorms to hide combo pieces, Leylines in the board, and the asymmetrical awesomeness that is Show and Tell, the matchup seems horrible.
I am currently running Adam Prosak's list and any suggestions as to what I should be sideboarding in and out would be appreciated. The fact that they have Leyline in the board makes me feel like I should be boarding out my discard for Carpet of Flowers and Chain of Vapor, but that leaves me with virtually no way to disrupt them.
I have also considered playing a two-of Krosan Grip in my board as it seems like the only reliable way to disrupt Omniscience/Dream Halls. There are two players in my meta who are currently on this deck so I do not mind devoting sideboard cards for specific hate, if necessary.
I played a bunch of test games against someone playing Drew Levin's list (one or two changes tops to the 75). Now granted, we only played pre-sideboard matches so I can't speak for games 2 and 3. They don't run that much counter magic for starters. My opponent only ran 4 Force and 2 Pact of Negation. The two pacts won't often be online before we want to go off so my initial advice would be to not be too afraid to go off. Discard obviously helps a bunch. Vis a vis leylines I think our best strategy is a combination of Xantid Swarms and Chain of Vapors.Quote:
Originally Posted by art138