I'm not at a computer right now but I will be sometime tomorrow and will be more than happy to give my current thoughts/build of the deck and answers to your questions.
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I'm not at a computer right now but I will be sometime tomorrow and will be more than happy to give my current thoughts/build of the deck and answers to your questions.
This is so disappointing, but it appears ya'll are right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
I know I wanted to stop derailing the thread with new things and focus on improving existing lists but I think I have an interesting idea and wanted to hear some opinions. I have tried SFM before and wasn't to impressed but that might have been because I tried him with Jitte and a more aggressive approach and Jitte was always awful. So why not more Batterskulls instead?
For a GWB control shell with Deeds and Decays what do you think about this setup?
4 Lingering Souls
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Batterskull
Mystic works well with Cabal Therapy and if he dies we don't care because we can cast the Batterskull anyway because we are Nic Fit. And Batterskull should be good in a mana heavy deck like Nic Fit anyway.
@Qweerios:
- Jace is best PW but in nonblue colors I agree.
- I agree with you on Surgical vs. Extirpate but I don't think we will come to conclusion on that topic. Getting around Brainstorm, Snapcaster, Cyclelands, Alurenshenanigans or Countermagic can be the right call, too.
- I still find your dislike for Carpet interesting. I'll try DR Shaman instead.
Hi, I'm a first time poster and have been reading this thread since about last December after a 10 year break from the game. I've played my own versions of Rector fit without much success at a local game store. It has been quite enjoyable though.Quote:
For a GWB control shell with Deeds and Decays what do you think about this setup?
4 Lingering Souls
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Batterskull
Mystic works well with Cabal Therapy and if he dies we don't care because we can cast the Batterskull anyway because we are Nic Fit. And Batterskull should be good in a mana heavy deck like Nic Fit anyway.
The deck I'll post below is just an idea, I haven't playtested it yet. I just keep seeing my own thoughts popping up in this thread and thought that if other people are putting them forward then so can/should I. By the way, I really enjoy reading all of your posts. Thanks to everyone for posting and in particular Arianrhod, Tao, Qweerios and HoneyT (and my appologies for missing any major contributor)!
Furthermore I enjoy finding all related info in one thread. For me it all correlates and therefore is relevant. I also think new ideas are at least as important as improving the successfull versions. There are so many possibilities to explore. The successfull versions will be played by many people anyway, and should always be getting ideas for improvement.
So, I'm also considering a build with the cards you listed, Tao. It started with the use of Batterskull since I only had one Thragtusk. It fits a similar purpose and is good with Thrun and Sigarda (and Humility). And Mystic serves a third purpose with 2 Phyrexian Tower and a fourth purpose with Opposition. My main goal with this build is probably the hunt for a maindeck answer to combo decks: Opposition. So I started thinking about Lingering Souls + Rector/Opposition. But I'll need other combo hosers to get that far, maybe adding Thoughtseizes/Gitaxian Probes.
So, here it is.
Maindeck (61):
Lands (22):
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Tropical Island
2 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Island
2 Phyrexian Tower
Creatures (16):
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Thragtusk
1 Deranged Hermit
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
2 Academy Rector
Enchantments (4):
1 Opposition
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
Artifact (4):
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Batterskull
Instants (3):
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Enlightened Tutor
Sorceries (12):
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Gitaxian Probe
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Lingering Souls
1 Vindicate
Sideboard (15):
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Golgari Charm
2 Engineered Plague
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Choke
1 Primeval Bounty
1 Humility
1 Memoricide
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Negate
1 Thoughtseize
Thoughts on the deck:
A) Greedy mana base with the addition of blue to a green-black-white build. I believe combo decks don't usually include Wasteland and thus I'll settle for about 2-3 maindeck lands giving blue mana to enable the occasional hard casting of Opposition. Currently two nonbasics to fetch and one basic to get by Explorer. And two Academy Rectors to put it directly into play. You can consider blue a dead color against noncombo decks. In 2/3 of those games you should get the Academy Rector first anyway, so you'll have the option to use the Opposition. I may skip the Island.
If Opposition doesn't work I'll remove the blue stuff and look for another combo answer. Living Wish? Regarding the use of blue I could add that initially I tried one blue land in a Rector build to be able to use Teferi's Moat maindeck. So I could keep playing Thragtusk and Thrun.
B) I would like more answers to Deathrite Shaman. However there are only two Rectors, it shouldn't be a big issue. And I hope the life gain, cheap creatures (Ooze, Mystic, Varolz, Souls), hexproof along with Carpets in the sideboard will be good against decks using Deathrite.
C) This is a flexible build of the deck for me to be able to try out different card interactions. I also generally like a diversified threat/answer base so that I can adjust my strategey depending on what deck I meet and what threats/answers I draw, as long as all threats have good synergy. For a more conventional build I could go e.g. -1 Deranged Hermit/Thragtusk, -1 Recurring Nightmare, -1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped/Thrun, the Last Troll, -1 Gitaxian Probe; +2 Abrupt Decay, +1 Pernicious Deed, staying at 60 cards. Or adding a third Top.
D) I would like to try adding Spike Feeder/Archangel of Thune. It would be nice to have a combo element. Maybe 2 maindeck Living Wish for hatebears vs combo and one Spike Feeder (which I've seen Arianrhod use).
E) I'd like to add Vault of the Archangel. I'm also considering Gaea's Cradle, but I need a really good late game mana sink to justify using it. Possibly accessible through Living Wish (sink and/or Cradle).
F) Another possible anti-combo strategy to try out could be main decking 2-3 Thoughtseize, 2 Eternal Witness, 2 Vindicate, 1 Recurring Nightmare. That way you have recurrable maindeck hand disruption and land destruction.
G) I have been using 1 Enlightened Tutor as a third Pernicious Deed and Sensei's Divining Top for freeing up maindeck space. The Tutor can be used in response to discard to hide your Deed on top of the library. Once you use the Deed it should compensate for the lost card. If you can't use it you won't tutor anyway. You also have the option of getting a Batterskull. I probably should add a Top though. The Tutor primarily adds power to the sideboard. There is a lot of tribal in the local meta, I use the Tutor to get Engineered Plague (or Pernicious Deed). I also like tutoring for Ethersworn Canonist against combo, or Choke when a blue opponent is tapped out at end of turn. Chains of Mephistopheles hasn't been that good yet but I'll keep testing it.
H) I'm not decided on the sideboard yet. Below is an idea. Would like Leyline of Sanctity since it is useful both vs Storm and decks packing Hymn/Thoughtseize, Liliana and burn.
I) I settled for using two Mystics since you don't want to draw a Mystic when you already have your two Batterskulls, the Batterskulls are good enough on their own and 2+ Mystics would take too much deck space without being critical for the deck. I'll try two to start with.
J) Opposition could be Dovescape, at least regarding the combo matchup. For other matchups Opposition would probably be better. Opposition is easier to cast but requires blue... I'm not that sold on Dovescape actually.
K) I probably should add some enchantment to make better use of Rector. Faith's fetters or Primeval Bounty.
Once I have decided on a deck and tried it at a local tournament I may share my updates with you, if there is any interest. The list is too sketchy to merit much of a discussion.
[Edit:] Actually Deathrite Shaman would fit well here. Few Deeds due to token theme, and it works well with Opposition. Both for casting and using. May make this change (hitting 60 cards):
-1 Recurring Nightmare, Thragtusk, Gitaxian Probe, Academy Rector, Deranged Hermit, Island
+2 Deathrite Shaman, +1 Sensei's Divining Top, Abrupt Decay, Savannah
I'll post more thoughts tomorrow (since I can finally access the Source from work again), but I wanted to chime in that I've actually thought about this a few times. I've always been very happy to sideboard in a singleton Batterskull for vs fair decks, and I could definitely see a version existing running multiple copies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
---
Got 10th place at Mythic yesterday, going 4-2. Beat RUG, UR, Dark Mav, Dark Mav; lost to Solidarity of all things (couldn't find any of my hate), and Goblins (multiple 3-4 count Ringleaders = sad panda). Won multiple games by scavenging onto Sigarda, as well as, obviously, the combo. Of potential interest: the Titans were a bit less than exciting yesterday, but oddly enough, they were 9/10 what people were terrified of out of my deck. They weren't really that scared of Archangel / Sigarda, which were the real game winners. That backs up what I've said all along regarding the 6s. Sun Titan did bring back a few Pernicious Deeds which is awesome as always, but Grave was very uninspiring. I don't think I'm making any cuts yet, since the last time I played the deck, Grave Titan was a total all-star....gonna give it a little more time and see what I think after a few more events, since I've got two wildly conflicting results on Grave atm.
More thoughts tomorrow.
Thanks for all the responses so far! And thanks Tao, you clarified a lot of doubts.
I didn't think of the carpet of flowers as an upgrade for explorer, but now I get it. And I can see the advantages of it. But is it really that important to ramp against control? Has anyone tested Choke? It also locks down RUG decks. I know it was devastating when I used it on Maverick against those decks.
Regarding Batterskull. It's a really strong card in legacy's metagame. I use it as a one-of on my UB tezzeret deck (transmute artifact target) and I'm almost always tutoring for it (although the gold medal goes to Ensnaring bridge).
However I don't think I will use it on the punishing or scapeshift variant, as you already have a strong late game (in PF lists) or an "I win" button (ScapeFit), so you want to spend your early turns either wrecking their hand, ramping, controlling the board with deeds and removal or looking for what you need at the moment with GSZ. Batterskull might be a little bit clunky if it gets stuck in your hand while you're trying not to die, and we don't have brainstorm. But I do see it being played in the white or blue versions, you can realiably cast it better than most other decks and that + Thrun or Sigarda should be game against any fair deck.
The only thing I want to point out is that a 4/3 split between stoneforges and Batterskulls seems unnecesary. I would go for 3/1 or something along those lines.
Crazy idea; What do you think about Gaddock as a GSZ target out of the board even if you're not playing white? I will definitely test it in September once I get the chance to play legacy.
Crazy idea: Ring of three wishes? Just silly?
How is it better than Diabolic Intent which rarely makes any placing list?
Summary of thoughts:
-) Polukranos was finally officially spoiled this morning, and his ability is indeed confirmed XXG. I'm not going to say that he's strictly unplayable (because I'm sure he'll be fine in standard and possibly even in modern), but he's definitely not good enough for us outside of random corner cases where you could somehow give him deathtouch (Basilisk Collar? lulz). I don't see that as being a sufficient reason to even keep him in my pool of playable cards.
-) Questioning the shell of Thune.
Highlights of the deck thusfar have been:
- Varolz + Sigarda
- The combo
- Playing Kitchen Finks against Tempo, Jund, Burn, and U/R
- Spike Feeder + Sigarda
- Getting to use Carpet of Flowers again
- Sun Titan + Pernicious Deed -- go fuck yourself, Deathrite
- Batterskull + Sigarda
- More Sigarda
As mentioned previously, Grave Titan was the nut high the last time I'd played the deck, and I was very happy with his inclusion. This weekend, though, he was very underwhelming. Unfortunately, cutting Grave Titan leaves the deck in the questionable position of running Empath solely for Sun Titan -- and the play of Empath->Titan, sac Empath to [thing], Sun Titan returning Empath->other 6 drop is absolutely backbreaking for most fair decks.
The Living Wishes have been less than optimal for me. I enjoy having Teeg maindeck, but not being able to dedicate sufficient sideboard space to relevant matchups is irritating. While I originally tried to emulate Scapewish and ran the Wishes as extra combo cards, I have come to believe that this is incorrect. A key difference between Thune and Scapewish is that while Scapeshift is of questionable utility prior to being lethal, Thune's combo pieces are respectable in and of themselves. Spike Feeder is the little engine that fucking could. That little guy has so much heart -- he does so many things, and then, when you're ready to win, he randomly goes super saiyan. I love it. Archangel of Thune is, obviously, a huge bomb all of her own. She's still (equally obviously) worse than something like Baneslayer on her own merits, but she's still frequently good enough, and enabling the combo is serious business.
As for the rest of the wishboard......I've sideboarded in the Angel of Despair more than I've wished for it, I've still never wished for Volrath's Stronghold other than when I'm getting mana screwed and am desperate for land, and while Wishing for Canonist sounds nice in theory, in practice its both not generally quick enough to matter, and having more boardable combo hate would just be better. I WILL miss having a wishable sac outlet (Viscera Seer), as well as the ability to Wish for an Explorer post-board, which is a powerful play. However, these two bonuses, alongside the combo redundancy, seems to me to not be worth the sideboard space and the 3 maindeck slots dedicated to them.
I'm reworking the shell now, and should have something to present on that topic before long.
-) I heard from my friend Jeremiah that a Nic Fit player placed in the top 8 at Xanadu in Baltimore over the weekend (55 players, I believe he said). He said that the guy was running Broodmate Dragon, which suggests to me that he was probably on Punishing, as I don't know of any other versions that have been running the double dragon. If you're reading this and you are that person, a list/report would be appreciated -- feed the hivemind!
-) Agree regarding Surgical vs Extirpate. It just depends entirely on what you're scared of. Sometimes the speed matters, sometimes the uncounterability matters.
-) Even as I understand from a theoretical standpoint the power of Lingering Souls, I still hate it. That said, I think that combining Souls + Sorin + Batterskulls (plural) seems like a legitimate place to look for a grindier midrange non-combo list. As I said before (and have many times before that), Batterskull has impressed the crap out of me as a random board-in for vs fair matches. It buys so much time, and going Voltron with Sigarda is gross and is one of my new favorite things to do.
That was me. Long time reader, first time poster, I guess? I went 4-0-2 in the swiss and lost in the first round of the top 8. My list:Quote:
-) I heard from my friend Jeremiah that a Nic Fit player placed in the top 8 at Xanadu in Baltimore over the weekend (55 players, I believe he said). He said that the guy was running Broodmate Dragon, which suggests to me that he was probably on Punishing, as I don't know of any other versions that have been running the double dragon. If you're reading this and you are that person, a list/report would be appreciated -- feed the hivemind!
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Broodmate Dragon
1 Garruk, Relentless
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolfrun
Side:
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtsieze
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
1 Blood Moon
1 Innocent Blood
1 Ichneumon Druid
The maindeck is the same as it's been for a while (I played it in the last SCG event in Baltimore), but the last few sideboard slots keep changing. Had 3 Mindbreak Trap before, but they took up too much space (and I've never played against storm with the deck in an event). Replaced them with Golgari Charm, Ichneumon Druid (which I found in a box of old stuff last week - didn't get to bring him in, but the guys checking our decks for the top 8 got a kick out of it), and Blood Moon (the idea came to me on the way to the event, and it was pretty sweet when I got it). The Krosan Grip used to be Wickerbough Elder, but the Omniscience deck can Trickbind it (which happened to me previously and unexpectedly - I thought I was in the clear when I put him in on a Show and Tell).
I managed to fade combo all day, which definitely helped (made up for some less than ideal draws, but I can't complain overall). I can give a recap of the rounds if anyone's interested.
The Xanadu player was a friend of mine; he was indeed running PFires. His GSZ targets were DRS, Ooze, Huntmaster, Thragtusk, Thrun, Broodmate, and Primeval.
EDIT: Damn, ninja'd. Hi Dan!
Yeah, a recap would be good.Quote:
Originally Posted by CCrazies
Neither Wickerbough nor Grip is sufficient vs OmniTell, unfortunately -- most skilled OmniTell pilots will immediately cast a second Omniscience (or Dream Halls) to defeat disenchant effects. Between the two I would opt for Wickerbough because he can swing and because you only have to leave up 1 mana instead of 3, which looks significantly less suspicious (if you're holding him in-hand). Slaughter Games is superior to both, although you obviously need to worry about Leyline of Sanctity then. The deck is fiendishly hard to beat for us, though, in any event.
Well then, it seems quite a bit has happened. To rednose, pettdan and CCrazies: welcome to the thread! Tao and Qweerios seem to have answered the more general questions satisfactorily.
It seems like there's been more interest in the Punishing Fire list lately so here's my current list and some thoughts for those interested:
Punishing Fire Nic Fit:
Lands:
1 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
Creatures:
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
Spells:
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Punishing Fire
3 Sensei's Divining Top
Sideboard:
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Golgari Charm
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Slaughter Games
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
Nothing too crazy with the changes. The deck is still very very good. I still haven't found a way to realistically lose to any fair deck in the format. I personally don't care for Ayotte's approach with 4 Thoughtseizes main. That creates way too many dead draws in the late game for me to be comfortable, even at the expense of losing to combo game one. The combo decks have a very hard time fighting through the diversity of hate in this sideboard. The Omnitell matchup isn't as bad as you think. REBS go a loooooong way. They have a hard time dealing with discard, counters, and permanent hate. If they don't have Leyline it's very easy. If not, we have 4 answers to it post board now, and if they have to mull to it, we should have time to find them.
This is how things went, to the best of my recollection (it ended up being a lot longer than I had anticipated). I didn't really have a sideboarding "plan", per se, but just kind of went with what seemed OK at the time.
Round 1, Draw vs. Shardless BUG
Game One: Took forever, as my draw wasn't good enough to ever turn a corner but was OK at holding him off for a while (I was hoping he'd eventually die to his own Dark Confidant, but he found enough Brainstorms to stay alive). We had a Deathrite Shaman vs. Punishing Fire in the graveyard plus Grove in play stand-off, where neither of us could use those respective resources. Had maybe 5-6 turns to find a Deed with Top to more or less take over the game, but didn't.
Board: -1 Punishing Fire (play around Surgical, I guess?)
+1 Pyroblast; should have brought in Blood Moon
Game Two: I won relatively quickly, off of a Primeval Titan I believe. He could maybe have dragged things out for a bit, but scooped to give us time for game three (assuming he could win faster than me, maybe).
Game Three: Was most likely going to be a draw, given that we only had 5 minutes left in the round. On turn 5 of turns I showed him my hand of Deed and Green Sun, which would have left him with no board or hand and me with a Huntmaster in play. Can't really fault him for not conceding though.
Round 2, Win vs. RUG Delver
Game One: He led off with a Delver that blind flipped. I Green Sun'ed for 1, which he allowed to resolve (assuming it couldn't get anything scary). Veteran Explorer allowed me to undo some Wasteland damage, and Punishing Fire eventually dealt with the Delver. The turn after Cabal Therapying to nab a Force (leaving him with no countermagic), I went for a Green Sun for 4 which got Dazed (I had a feeling he had drawn a Daze but tried it anyway). A hard-cast Primeval Titan drew a Brainstrom looking for a counter (and whiffing), though it did die to double Bolt. A second Huntmaster resolved and did some flipping (though he Stifled the initial comes into play trigger). I thought I was in good shape, but missed flipping my Ravager one turn (I had double Fire and should have just gone to his face to gain the 2 life) and he drew the Bolt to kill me from 3. Was the only really obvious misplay on the day, thought there are probably some smaller less-than-optimal decisions.
Board: -2 Punishing Fire (only kills Delver)
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-1 Garruk
-1 Primeval Titan
-1 Broodmate Dragon
+3 Carpet of Flowers
+1 Innocent Blood
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Blood Moon
Game Two: Turn one Carpet of Flowers on the play was nice. He then Forced my Veteran Explorer, which felt pretty good. Therapy to blind hit Nimble Mongoose (the threat most difficult to deal with), leaving Bolt, Chain Lightning, double Ponder. He doesn't Ponder on his turn. Another Veteran Explorer, flash-back Therapy to take both Ponders (I don't know if he thought I'd only get to take one). After the Chain and Bolt are gone, I get a Huntmaster. Use Carpet of Flowers mana to pump the wolf token pre-combat with Wolfrun (to entice him to Bolt that instead if he drew one) and swing with the wolf and Huntmaster. He Bolts the token to take 2 instead of 5. Huntmaster flipping back and forth wins the game (Wolfrun gets Wastelanded, which happened all day - only got to use it that one time.)
Game Three: Play early Carpet of Flowers, plus another one in hand. And a Veteran Explorer. Deed to wipe our boards. Eternal Witness back the Explorer, using both to double-block a Mongoose (I knew he had a Bolt, but I guess he was saving it for a Huntmaster instead of saving the Goose). Was far enough ahead that I didn't bother Pyroblasting his Ponders as he was digging for answers, and also cracked fetches with the intention of getting them Stifled, to free up Deeds or other triggered abilities later (I don't think he had played against a deck that made the mana-denial part of RUG's game look so bad, so it was probably harder to get into a different mind-set; he had a lot of exasperated looks throughout our match, but was a nice guy). Innocent Blood kills another Mongoose. Eventually top-decked a Scavenging Ooze with boards clear, and used Carpet mana to eat 5 creatures. That prompted a concession (and head-shake).
Round 3, Win vs. Jund
Game One: He actually has two basics, so the first Veteran Explorer isn't too amazing. The second one is pretty good. We traded off resources for a while, with my Top facing off against his Sylvan Library. Deed only ends up killing one of those things when I wipe his board though. At one point after he had Wastelanded me a couple times I crack a fetch and say that with a couple duals already out I might as well get another one; one of us mentions Price of Progress, and I note he's at a higher life total. He jokes about a Thragtusk, not knowing there was actually one in my deck (this was amusing when I show it to him after the match). A Huntmaster seals it after flipping and teaming up with two Punishing Fires to kill a 5/6 Goyf.
Board: -1 Punishing Fire
-1 Garruk
+2 Thoughtseize (might not have even been worth siding, but I never saw them anyway)
Game Two: Primeval Titan gets Maelstrom Pulsed. Broodmate Dragon draws a concession. Spectators were pretty amused (and my opponent was really good-natured about the whole thing - some people are grumpy when you play a Broodmate Dragon against them). Had never played Jund before, but it seems like a good match-up. Their discard becomes bad once my hand is empty, and Top mitigates it pretty well. All the creatures but Goyf die to Punishing Fire. Deed is great. And I can go way over the top.
Round 4, Win vs. BUG Delver
Game One: I mulligan to 6, and keep Top plus 5 lands on the play. Lead with Mountain (for maximum confusion), Top. He thinks for a bit and lets it resolve, so I know I can name Force with my first Cabal Therapy (he told me later that his only threat and his only other blue card was a Delver). He blind flips his Delver on the first try, but I find a Punishing Fire with Top to kill it. After a few turns I slam a Thragtusk on an empty board and go back up to 20. "I have no way of dealing with that." *scoop*
Board: -2 Punishing Fire (I forgot about Deathrite and assumed he had Mongoose)
-1 Garruk
-1 Primeval Titan
-1 Broodmate Dragon
+3 Carpet of Flowers
+1 Innocent Blood
+1 Blood Moon
Game Two: Keep an awkward Deathrite Shaman, Top, double Deed hand. He has turn one Delver (blind flip - every Delver I saw flipped immediately unassisted, I believe), into Deathrite himself. I see a Blood Moon with Top, and just need to walk him into tapping out so he can't Abrupt Decay it after floating mana (also need to Deed away his Deathrite) - a Veteran Explorer finds me Forest and Swamp in preparation. I play out a Deed assuming it will get countered (with the Force I saw off Delver), but it resolves. He has just two lands out, so when he swings with the Insect I pop Deed for one and respond by trying to eat a creature with my Deathrite to goad him into using his own to prevent it (tapping him down to one land), which he does. Post combat he plays a second land, but then uses them to cast Life From the Loam (I guess he saw Jund colors and assumed Wastelands from my side?) to make his 4 card hand into Force + 3 lands. I untap and drop the Blood Moon. *scoop* A lot of distraught looks during these games. I think at one point I reassured him that he couldn't have expected to face this match-up.
Round 5, Win vs. Jund
Game One: I keep Bayou, Grove, Deathrite, Green Sun, Cabal Therapy, Garruk, Titan. He plays fetchland, go. My plan is to play Deathrite turn one, so I can Therapy into Green Sun for Explorer to flash back Therapy turn two - stripping his hand and potentially setting up Titan on turn three - which would have been my most explosive opening of the day by far). He Bolts my Shaman and Wastelands me. I play the Grove. He Wastelands me. He Thoughtseizes the Green Sun. At this point I'm feeling like there's a decent chance I'll end the game with no permanents in play. I find a land and a Top. When he Hymns my hand of Garruk, Titan, Therapy, I find a Punishing Fire and use Top to draw it hoping to discard the Fire and the Therapy. He hits the Garruk and the Titan. He plays a Liliana, but doesn't use her. I Therapy his one card and blind hit Bloodbraid Elf (actually fist-pumped and cheered at the first thing to have gone right in the match - he's a good guy who I've played against before*, so it was all in good fun). He gets a Deathrite Shaman, and the Liliana starts ticking up. I Punishing Fire the Shaman, and later Top into a Maelstrom Pulse to kill the Liliana with 6 loyalty. He's had Fire/Groves to whittle me down, but I eventually find a Thragtusk (which is a slightly faster clock). He finds a second Grove and a second Fire, but opts to keep hitting me instead of letting me gain a bunch of life as he takes a couple turns to kill the Thragtusk and beast token. Spectators were pretty dumbfounded that I won.
* Feel a little bad, but can't not mention this; last time I played him was RTR block draft. He's at 2 with a bunch of guys, one of whom has a Stab Wound on it. I have a lethal attacker that he can't block (I had purposefully not played any creatures all game to make his Launch Party bad, but needed to to keep from dying on a previous attack). When I go to attack, he casts Launch Party - sacrifices a random guy(!) - to kill my attacker and put me dead on his turn. If he wasn't at 2, with a Stab Wound killing him on his upkeep. Given this history, the way the Legacy game ended didn't really surprise me.
Board: -1 Punishing Fire
-1 Garruk
+2 Thoughtseize
Game Two: A triple Zenith hand gets mostly ripped apart by discard. I Green Sun for Thrun with a Deathrite out as Liliana protection. It attacks past his 3/4 Goyf (which eventually dies to Abrupt Decay). Two Liliana's later and the Thrun is gone. I get it back with Eternal Witness, but it gets Hymned away. Neither of us has much going on, as I Top into lands and Cabal Therapy (with no shuffle effects), while he keeps finding more discard/removal of his own. He have a Punishing Fire war going, but I find a second Fire first (right after I draw it I pass with two cards and he Hymns me - I respond with the double Fire) and ride that advantage to victory. Sensei's Diving Top is very good in this match-up. I think at one point he Abrupt Decayed it to force me to put it on top and thus have to take a turn off of using it while I was constricted on mana (or he didn't know how hard it was to kill a Top).
Round 6, vs. Sneak and Show
Intentional Draw, thankfully
Top 8:
Loss vs. Shardless BUG
Pretty excited, as it's one of the few decks in the top 8 I have a good match-up against. Nothing too interesting in the games though, as I drew pretty poorly (saw 0 Deeds across the two games, even with Top going, and had the things that did things countered and discarded).
One game he Wastelanded both of my Groves, ate my Punishing Fire with Deathrite Shaman, Thoughtseized my Broodmate Dragon, before Hymning the rest of my action away, Forced my Maelstrom Pulse on his double Goyfs (against which my two Veteran Explorers were acting as a pseudo-moat - he tried to Pulse them to swing in for lethal, but I bought myself an extra turn by saccing the targeted one to Phyrexian Tower), Suspended (and resolved) two Anscestral Visions, and fate-sealed me with Jace after I was forced to shuffle Top away to grab an Abrupt Decay to kill a lethal Goyf. And I *still* have a good chance of winning that game if I find a Deed over the last few turns (I was holding a Cabal Therapy to force Deed through). On the last turn I drew a land (that he left with Jace) and cast Cabal Therapy anyway for the heck of it (with only the land in hand). He actually thought about it for a bit before letting it resolve - I just wanted to name Force to up my blind hit rate with Therapy on the day to 75% (6 of 8, I believe).
Ended up with 6 Modern Masters packs (Cryptic and foil Reveillark the two best pulls) for my trouble.
Overall, the deck was really sweet (more games ended with concessions from opponents at high life totals than actual attacks for lethal, I think). Huntmaster and Thragtusk were both awesome - if either resolves they take so many resources for the opponent to get fully rid of. Thrun is really good against the UW decks, but if Lilianas are all over the place then I'd consider replacing him with a 3rd Huntmaster. Garruk is similarly better against those decks than against the BUG control decks that have Goyf in them (and Abrupt Decay to kill a flipped Garruk). Not sure what changes I'd make at the moment though. Also considering going to 3 Punishing Fire (maybe for a 4th Deed?). And some sort of anti-combo sideboard plan (other than take out all of the things that do nothing and bring in anything that does something) would be good.
Gratz CCrazies/Arian and thanks for the reports. I sign everything positive about Sigarda, best card in the deck. Sun Titan sounds very sweet at the moment. I will try it.
I found 3 Inquisition of Kozilek in addition to Therapy a comfortable setup in general for both White lists and Punishing Fire lists. I don't like the lifeloss from Thoughtseize and we have Therapy for CMC4 stuff. It is also just a good way to start a game by taking a Hymn, Sitfle or a Brainstorm from their hand.
I took up Nic Fit again after I fell in love with Burning Wish (4th place losing to 4c loam using Burning Wish in top8 using Lightning Blade). After moderate testing, I really like how it is extremely smooth to wish for Innocent Blood, Massacre, or Pyroclasm to trigger explorer and sweep the board. I also find myself wishing for Slaughter Games and Tsunami often as a form of game-ender following heavy discard or how it simply gives me access to Maelstrom Pulse without having it clog my mainboard. I was pleasantly surprised at how powerful Burning Wish could be without Scapeshift. Red Blasts were always reaching out to me but I could never find a significant reason to play red over blue when I couldn't find anything worth the splash to play mainboard (PFire is win-more, Broodmate is underwhelming, Huntmaster is ok). Having 4 additional virtual sac outlets that double up as bomb spells for specific matchups is simply more consistent than having the additional manipulation and synergy of Brainstorm, Probe, and Jace.
With that said, do you guys know of any strong or synergistic Sorcery spells that would be worth their salt for Nic Fit in all 5 colors with minimal color weight in blue or white? I am considering to move Teeg from the SB to the main and add a single Savannah and I am curious about strong blue sorceries in general.
I have been using the following SB to very satisfying results against decks that are traditionally bad matchups:
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Innocent Blood
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Tsunami
1 Reverent Silence
1 Slaughter Games
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Gaddock Teeg
-4 Blasts are standard for dreaded cards like SnT, Jace, counterwars, cantrips, Brainstorms... you know the drill
-2 Surgicals may seem light on GY hate but there are 4 GSZ, 2 Deathrites, and 1 Ooze in my main with 4 Burning Wish for a Slaughter Games and ample disruption to give you enough time.
-Thoughtseize is there as the cheapest form of disruption for Burning Wish and usually comes in the main postboard when Deeds and Decays are worthless. I have the 3 other copies already in the main. It is interesting to note how Thoughtseize's life loss is mostly irrelevant in a deck playing 4 GSZ, 2 DRS, 1 Ooze, 1 Huntmaster, and 1 Thragtusk. Unmask seems like a potential replacement since it comes down a turn sooner at the expense of ditching a dead card like Abrupt Decay or Deed.
-Pyroclasm > Damnation/Perish because it has a significantly lower mana cost and therefore it comes in on time vs. tribal aggro. It is also much easier to recur and re-use in a timely fashion as well and it is usually one-sided. It may not handle Goyf or Kotr but thats why I have Decays and Deeds, and not why I play Burning Wish.
-Massacre > Virtue's Ruin because it is probably one of the strongest and most timely wish target. Massacre kills Explorer and costs zero. Being unable to cast it against Teeg is mostly irrelevant because there are other removal spells in the board that you could wish for in that particular scenario. Playing Teeg against Nic Fit is also a poor play to begin with as it only shuts down GSZ and that effect is often mirrored.
-Tsunami is probably the second best wish target after Massacre and will make dedicated control and/or mono blue decks scoop up their cards. This card undoes the symmetry of Explorer.
-Reverent Silence is probably the least relevant wish target in the deck but it has its merits. It assures us a bye against Enchantress and kills a bunch of fringe enchantments for free, but most importantly, it gets rid of Leyline of Sanctity in time.
-Innocent Blood, Slaughter Games, and Maelstrom Pulse are no-brainers.
I don't have enough mountains to play Pulverize, Ruination is too narrow, Dreadbore overlaps with the other targets, and Reanimate seems a bit too cute. Am I missing anything?
In White lists a good Anti-Combo-SB is:
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
3-4 Surgical/Extirpate
4 Thoughtseize (less if some are already MD)
Targeted Discard without any Enchantment removal fails against the White Leyline. So any White list should have a Pridemage in the 75 because he kills it and is useful in general. Golgari Charm also kills the White Leyline and is great against Elves and D&T/Maverick (and a couple other random decks).
Another possible SB option is Elspeth, Knight Errant. She puts pressure on Jace TMS (and a snipe on him with her +3/+3 flying is gamebreaking) and quickens the clock against Combo significantly.
@Tao,
I don't know if these suggestions were aimed at me because I was specifically asking about sorceries (AKA: Burning Wish targets) but here's what I think if they were:
Qasali Pridemage doesn't cut it if his purpose is to get rid of Leyline. He will generally get rid of the enchantment on turn 4 via GSZ or in best cases on turn 2-3 with a turn 1 mana dork and a drawn Qasali, which means that you won't be getting any disruption in before turn 4-5 against a combo deck with Leyline. You also cannot leave mana open for REB since it is literally consuming all of your mana during the critical turns if it isn't drawn naturally with a mana dork. Burning Wish for Reverent Silence is much more solid since you can get a thoughtseize in on turn 2 after a turn 1 dork, or still have mana open for a REB and having dealt with the Leyline for 2 mana.
Golgari Charm is a nice touch but dealing with permanents is the least of my concerns when I consider SB slots.
On a more positive note, I played 9 games against a skilled ANT player and have won 5 matches out of 9. I won 1 mainboard game and 4 postboard games. The deck gets disruption in on every single turn post-board and wishing for Tsunami or Slaughter Games usually seals it. Including Teeg mainboard would definitely further the odds in my favor. Here is the list I have been using for reference:
Creatures (12)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
Spells (19)
3 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
4 Abrupt Decay
Others (6)
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
Lands (23)
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
Sideboard (15)
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Innocent Blood
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Tsunami
1 Reverent Silence
1 Slaughter Games
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Gaddock Teeg
SB changes against ANT:
-4 Decay, -3 Deed, -1 Titan
+2 REB, +2 Pyro, +2 Surgical, +1 TS, +1 Teeg
I am currently considering to cut an Explorer or a Fetch in order to include Teeg main and free up an additional SB slot. I am curious as to what Burning Wish target I could include as my 15th SB card while I have access to GBrw colors.
- I meant the SB for White lists in general. I've played a lot of games in the last days with varying lists and only posted what I am absolutely sure about.
Qasali Pridemage allows T4 discard against Leyline without acceleration, T3 with acceleration or if you drew it. Not turn 5. That might often be too slow but it also might not be sometimes, especially if they have less cards because of Leyline (and maybe even mull'ed for it). It is certainly better than not having the option plus it kills idle Sneak Attacks and has many other good uses in other matchups. Golgari Charm is just a good way to round out your SB against Elves, Maverick, D&T and Leyline.
- Your list looks not very good to be honest. You give up so much power from Scapeshift without much gain. You have barely any threats left. I haven't played with it so maybe I'm wrong but to me it looks very much like you will often get outvalued by Jund, Shardless and UW Jace decks.
Qweerios. How does this version do against SNT/OMNI?
@Qweerios
Why the huntmaster and not thrun?
I've been considering Rise // Fall. Has it been discussed? Sorry in that case, I fail at using the advanced search for "Rise // Fall"!Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
It may not be good enough, but it has some relevant uses so I want to mention it for general consideration:
- extra discard vs combo decks (desperately needed, IMO)
- slowing down aggressive decks while also returning a lost/used Explorer/Ooze/Deathrite/Stoneforge/Witness
- late game returning a good offensive creature from the grave while also clearing way for your offence
- the bounce has synergies with Therapy, Liliana & Jace
- bouncing Wall of Blossoms/Baleful Strix/Stoneforge/Witness/Thragtusk also seems good
- bouncing Tombstalker or a reanimated creature
There are a lot of things to consider in order to make this card useful. E.g. playing Phyrexian Tower helps you get creatures into your own graveyard early. Deathrite Shaman helps you play the card, while also ending up early in the graveyard.
I wonder if one Taiga and 6-7 fetches together with 2 Deathrites would be enough to play Fall regularly vs combo decks. The colors are an obvious issue either way.
I was thinking at one time we had a renanimate as a burning wish target, that seems better?Quote:
Originally Posted by pettdan
I was mostly considering the card for maindeck use, and that's why I wanted to bring it up. But since it fit Qweerios's description I took the opportunity to reply. Two mana is a bit much for use together with a Burning Wish, considering it doesn't have a huge impact on the game, but on the other hand it's not strictly irrelevant - perhaps it even can be a useful Wish target due to it's flexibility(?).Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone2016
When it comes to the effect of the card it is quite far from Reanimate, I'd say. It is first of all a quasi Hymn to Tourach. But it is also a card that can e.g. bounce a Tarmogoyf and return a killed/countered Veteran Explorer to your hand on turn two. The option of adding maindeck combo hosers is very attractive to me.
@Star Scream,
I have yet to text extensively against SnT.
@Blastoderm,
Huntmaster could easily be Thrun. Thrun gives you inevitability while Huntmaster gives you another value body for Therapy at 4 mana and further improves the burn matchup. I haven't needed Thrun in a long time, hexproof has been only necessary against StP/Snap/BSkull decks.
@Tao,
I wouldn't necessarily compare this list to Scapeshift more so than regular GBx variants. Unlike ScapeWish, this list has a stable manabase. I speak from personal experience when I state that Nic Fit has never needed a 4cmc sorcery to win a game, and how a strong manabase has always been a strong component of this deck's success. You can't expect to lose manipulation (shuffle effects), weaken your manabase, play a large amount of value creatures, and hope to be anything remotely close to a successful control or combo deck.
You're absolutely right about the unreliable manabase and needing shuffle effects for SDT in ScapeWish. However, one of the problems of this archetype (and why I took up ScapeWish) is durdling and not being able to finish matches in time. How does this version stack up?Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
Long time browser, newly registered and just bought into the deck. Looking to play Punishing Fit tonight at my weekly Legacy event tonight. Judging by the local purchases in my community, I can expect a couple Shardless BUG and some Delvers flying around. This is what I planned on running tonight, but I am very open to suggestion:
Maindeck (60):
Creatures (15):
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Eternal Witness
2x Huntmaster of the Fels
2x Thragtusk
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Varolz, the Scar-Stripped
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Primeval Titan
Instants/Sorceries (15):
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Punishing Fire
3x Abrupt Decay
Artifacts/Planeswalkers/Enchantments (7):
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
Lands (23):
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Bayou
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Bloodstained Mire
1x Taiga
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Kessig Wolf-Run
3x Snow-Covered Forest
2x Snow-Covered Mountain
2x Snow Covered Swamp
Sideboard (15):
4x Duress
2x Slaughter Games
2x Extirpate
2x Obstinate Baloth
3x Red Elemental Blast
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Primeval Bounty
The Sideboard needs a lot of tuning, but as somewhat with little experience with this particular deck I rather be safe than sorry when facing a Storm or Omni-Tell match-up.
@Star Scream,
I fail to see how Nic Fit wins too slowly or "durdles" too much. I never had any problems closing games in time with a single Primeval Titan or Jacing my opponent while Deed looping. After all, it is a control deck so control of the board needs to be established, and that takes several turns. Compared to Miracle (Tier1 deck), Nic Fit is lightning fast and ridiculously linear... Nic Fit is not a complicated deck to play once you are familiar with the cards so you shouldn't take too long to complete your turns. Control mirrors will probably go to time, but then again, all control decks tend to when they are faced with attrition.
This particular GBr variant of Nic Fit wins the same way any other conventional list does: it ramps into fatties. Burning Wish is there to help the deck's consistency with sacrifice outlets, board sweepers, and other utility sorcery spells. It virtually expands mainboard space at the cost of sideboard space, making the deck overall more consistent and versatile.
The Maindeck looks pretty good. For the Sideboard I would play Thoughtseize over Duress and a 4th Red Blast. How did the tournament go?Quote:
Originally Posted by SevenInTheQueue
I ended up running a list using Qweerio's Burning Wish shell that he recently posted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
Creatures (13):
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Eternal Witness
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Huntmaster of the Fels
1x Thragtusk
1x Primeval Titan
Instants/Sorceries (18):
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Burning Wish
4x Abrupt Decay
2x Thoughtseize
Artifacts/Planeswalkers/Enchantments (6):
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
Lands (23):
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills
1x Bloodstained Mire
2x Bayou
2x Taiga
1x Savannah
1x Badlands
2x Treetop Village
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold
3x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Mountain
Sideboard (15):
2x Red Elemental Blast
2x Pyroblast
2x Extirpate
1x Massacre
1x Innocent Blood
1x Slaughter Games
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Thoughtseize
1x Tsunami
1x Pyroclasm
1x Reanimate
1x Reverant Silence
Ended up winning the 8-man we had. I feel as though I won the match-up lottery though.
R1: 2-0 vs. Dredge (Lost the die roll)
R2: 2-1 vs. RUG Delver (Won the die roll)
R3: 2-0 vs. Death and Taxes (Won the die roll)
Really enjoyed the utility the wishes brought. I wanted to designate a slot in my wishboard to something that wasn't necessarily reactive. I went with Reanimate, and it worked out quite well, but the idea of something similar to Banefire or Rakdos' Return was mentioned several times as a possibility in the future. Also, would Raging Ravine be a possible substitute for 1x Treetop Village?
Anyways, I feel as though this is the list I want to work on currently. Tips, comments, concerns?
I have the same concern as Tao regarding this list. It seems to run so few threats. However it seems interesting. Might try it out once I have more time to test.Quote:
Originally Posted by SevenInTheQueue
The only useful tip I can give you is regarding the Gaddock, I love having access to him in my 75, but I don't think he belongs in the main. I would also like to try and fit the 3rd top. And a sorcery win condition out of the SB (can't think of anything besides worm Harvest though).
@SevenInTheQueue,
Glad to hear you enjoyed the shell. I am also looking for more proactive, game-breaking sorcery spells. So far, I have Clan Defiance, Rakdos's Return, Plunge into Darkness, and Harmonize in mind. However, I am not sold on any of them yet. Tendrils of Despair doesn't look half bad either.
I have tried Raging Ravine and the activation cost is too hefty. Treetop is better, and trample is relevant.
On the topic of threats, how many is too few, and how many is too much? I recall tearing through 7 swiss rounds using only 1 Thrun, 1 Titan, 1 Thragtusk, and 1 Ooze back when I played Gifts Ungiven.
@Rednose
The Teeg was more of a meta call, but ended up being unnecessary. I'm not attached to his slot in my 60, and will probably end up putting him in the sideboard.
@Qweerios
Got really excited when I saw Plunge Into Darkness, but then realized it was an instant. Get really spicy and play Beacon of Unrest/Creation
As far as threats go, I didn't feel as though they were lacking. That said, my sample size isn't nearly large enough to give a solid opinion on the matter. With Teeg heading to the board, I wouldn't mind replacing him with a 3cc threat. Here are the options I've found:
Varolz, the Scar-Stripped - I've seen him pop up in multiple lists, and he seems quite strong. That said, does he really add anything to the deck that we don't already have access to?
Daybreak Ranger - Maybe Kibler brainwashed me, but could this be strong enough? Deals with Delver, Strix, V-Clique, Mindcensor, etc. Again, are these things we can't already deal with?
Kitchen Finks - Nothing exciting
Fierce Empath - Currently only finds Primeval Titan. Could add another 6cc to increase threat count. Not that exciting by itself though
Vithian Renegades - There might be enough match-ups where this is relevant G1 to include.
I heard there was a deck featuring birthing pod and dead eye navigator. Which one of you guys is playing in the open?
I meant Promise of Power, not Plunge.
Possibly Zirath/Timur Babakol i guess, he was undefeated the last time i checked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Even better. PoP is big game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
LOL. When I say PoP is big game in legacy I don't think Promise of Power is the card that I think of. It does seem pretty sweet though. A Skeletal Scrying that you dont have to rape your own yard.Quote:
Originally Posted by SevenInTheQueue
Looks like Kevin was 5-3 going into the last round with a chance to top 64.
Top 64...45th to be exact. Report tomorrow. Deck shit the bed early then finally pulled its head out of its ass in r6. Then went on a tear and beat my next three pretty easily, including reanimator in the last round. Had good matchups all day u til reanimator....good meta for us. Couldnt track down the bug deadeye list....wasn't timur. More tomorrow....at hard rock now then road for 3 hours lol