[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

Alright, back to ANT.

I really think Ad Nauseam is super loose in this deck, I wish I could fix that, but it just seems likenI'm going to have to live with it and move on.

pratical joke, would you mind posting your 75? Also would the Silence plan be replacing Doomsday? Because that seems kind of bad to me.

Mulliganing with this deck is fairly basic to me. If there isn't Infernal or Ad Nauseam in my opening hand I ship it unless it has LED, 2 Cantrips (where both aren't Preordain), and Rituals. For my 6 card hands, I keep anything with Infernal and Ad Nauseam, but also keep the 1 cantrip hand. 5 Cards I keep lands and castable spells. If a hand has LED+Tendrils, it has to be really broken or have Brainstorm. Against good matchups I mull fairly aggressively.

I would've mulled your first hand:

First of all discard is fine against dredge, but not mandatory, because if you can't win yourself then the duress has no effect at all.
Your hand lacks a wincondition and you only play 4 in your deck (+1 ad nauseam which I didn't count).

That's honestly too low, I think, and my list isn't that far from the one you use, 6 is as low as you can get else your hands totally rely on infernal tutor.

back to your first hand, it has nothing to win with. You rely on finding either a tutor or a cantrip into tutor. Fat chance that's not going to happen fast enough.

Against dredge I never care for tearing apart their hand, winning faster than they do works better. Most dredge-able targets are there on their T2, maybe T3. (but they have no haste unless DR a FKZ)
so you have about the average of winning till T3, most of the times that's enough for anything to kill them, fix you hand and win.

Against TES I love a hand full of discard, actually that's how I win my mirrors. since we play at least 4 more cantrips than they do.
TES plays "more business" but less cantrips, if you tear down their hand, their deck becomes substantially less dangerous. Also cantripping should be done with caution. The second ad nauseam is very nice to have here as well, since half of the fights against TES will be an attrition war. The other half is, I take that one card from your hand and then win in my turn. (or blow your face at T1)

The mirror is a dieroll..no fun there, really none at all. Just go for the attrition war and go for better knowledge of the deck (by protecting your cards the right way)

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

Alright, back to ANT.

Mulliganing with this deck is fairly basic to me. If there isn't Infernal or Ad Nauseam in my opening hand I ship it unless it has LED, 2 Cantrips (where both aren't Preordain), and Rituals. For my 6 card hands, I keep anything with Infernal and Ad Nauseam, but also keep the 1 cantrip hand. 5 Cards I keep lands and castable spells. If a hand has LED+Tendrils, it has to be really broken or have Brainstorm. Against good matchups I mull fairly aggressively.

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The chance of not having either Infernal or Ad Nauseam in your starting hand is 52,5 % with one Ad Nauseam in your deck. The probability of having LED, 2 Cantrips and Rituals isn't that easy to calculate but you would mulligan too often for my taste with ANT. This might be the case because you are coming from the TES side of the combo-spectrum.

My 75 should be in a few pages back

4x misty
4x delta
3x verdant
2x sea
2x island
1x swamp

2x chrome mox
4x lotus petal
4x LED
4x ritual
4x cabal ritual
4x infernal tutor
2x ad nauseam
1x ill-gotten gains
1x tendrills
4x duress
3x thoughtseize
12x cantrip

SB: currently
3x chain
4x doomsday
1x spaghettimonster
1x shelldock
1x trop
4x xantid
1x thoughtseize


When I'd go for chants:

Mainboard: -3 verdant catacombs + 2 marsh flats,-4 misty for + 4 flooded +1 tundra ( I'm even tempted to throw away a sea, but they're to usefull decks without wasteland)
Sideboard: -1 trop, -4 xantid,+1 trundra +4 chants

this way I don't influence mainboard that badly with a lot of unneccesary duals.

However I liked Ari's trickbind, but It'll cost me the sideboard thoughtseize for sure (not that big of a problem though).

you want 2 tundra because the risk is hugely there it'll get wasted at when it fails, and I don't like risking it not getting it easily cast the second time with a petal I might not have at all. (bigger chance, less risks)


Chants are decent vs a lot of match-ups but they do not excell like a resolved xantid does vs merfolk/treshhold (that boarded out removal)

I play 2 AdN.

Also, I don't mull that often... I guess I was being too specific, I would keep rituals lands and three cabtrips, it just depends


I love Xantid Swarm, the problem is is that it is terrible against Tempo ***** (likethe one that Top 8'd the scg open) so I kind of feel uncomfortable playing them

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

Alright, back to ANT.


Mulliganing with this deck is fairly basic to me. If there isn't Infernal or Ad Nauseam in my opening hand I ship it unless it has LED, 2 Cantrips (where both aren't Preordain), and Rituals. For my 6 card hands, I keep anything with Infernal and Ad Nauseam, but also keep the 1 cantrip hand. 5 Cards I keep lands and castable spells. If a hand has LED+Tendrils, it has to be really broken or have Brainstorm. Against good matchups I mull fairly aggressively.

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I look at my hands like this (considering it's game 1 and I don't know what my opponent is playing.)
"Can this hand get there by turn 3?"
There are a TON of hands that do... and going in blind, I try to find one. That way, if my opponent is playing gobbo's/Zoo/etc I just win game 1. If it's something tougher (Top, etc) I change my strategy a bit and start trying to get into their hand.

The key to what hands to keep - It needs a plan. You also need to understand what kind of chances you have to hit something off a cantrip.
Tutors are at a premium. The grim Version runs 7 action cards (4 IT, 2 Grim, 1 AdN) so hands that start with one of those deserve a second look.
Mana is the easiest thing to find in the deck. Most versions run at least 12 accelerants. With IT, LED is generaly best, Dark ritual is the standby, and Cabal ritual is great when you have threshold (it's important to understand how fast you can get to threshold) Petal and Mox (if you play it) are both necessary but not exactly "explosive."

Keepable hands that get there also depend on how well you use your cantrips. When to brainstorm is obviously the most "skill intensive" but knowing when to ponder over preordain on turn 1 (not often) when to play a fetchland, whether to duress or preordain, etc... are small little things that seem pretty moot, but will change your win % considerably.

Also... hands with tendrils + led don't bother me much, It's normally just like taking a mulligan. Hands with LED as acceleration + IGG however... those can be problematic.

Irenicus: I think you are looking at opening 7's with this deck too much like TES. One of the huge benefits of 12 cantrips is that it means you rarely mulligan. I regularly keep hands like Preordain, Duress, Petal, X (not Tutor), 3 lands and kill on 3 just because the high cantrip density means you will likely see 10-12 extra cards if you want to off of this hand by then. Specifically you can cantrip into other cantrips to see more cards. With TES you don't have that option because you only have 6-8 (list dependent) and as such a single cantrip won't pull you as far toward the perfect hand.

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Originally Posted by AriLax

Irenicus: I think you are looking at opening 7's with this deck too much like TES. One of the huge benefits of 12 cantrips is that it means you rarely mulligan. I regularly keep hands like Preordain, Duress, Petal, X (not Tutor), 3 lands and kill on 3 just because the high cantrip density means you will likely see 10-12 extra cards if you want to off of this hand by then. Specifically you can cantrip into other cantrips to see more cards. With TES you don't have that option because you only have 6-8 (list dependent) and as such a single cantrip won't pull you as far toward the perfect hand.

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That seems like a ridiculously loose keep. If Preordain misses (which is a pretty insignificant chance), you literally do nothing. TES has more live draws to kill or literally stall (one advantage of Chant right there) for the turn 3 or 4 kill.

At the last tournament I was at, I missed on action twice when I had a hand with 2 cantrips. You must have Bryant Cook style luck (that man keeps the most disgusting hands ever).

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

You must have Bryant Cook style luck (that man keeps the most disgusting hands ever).

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I heard Ari Lax draws pretty well too.

Practical Joke, your list is 61 cards. Is that accurate?

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Originally Posted by AriLax

Irenicus: I think you are looking at opening 7's with this deck too much like TES. One of the huge benefits of 12 cantrips is that it means you rarely mulligan. I regularly keep hands like Preordain, Duress, Petal, X (not Tutor), 3 lands and kill on 3 just because the high cantrip density means you will likely see 10-12 extra cards if you want to off of this hand by then. Specifically you can cantrip into other cantrips to see more cards. With TES you don't have that option because you only have 6-8 (list dependent) and as such a single cantrip won't pull you as far toward the perfect hand.

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I myself thought in the opposite direction. I don't have a huge TES-background and get the feeling that I keep too many cantrip-heavy hands. That was the reason why I wrote the post actually. The problem I have having with the cantrip-heavy hands is that they are better in slower matchups and help setting up a secure-chaining-10 spells-kill. I like that playstyle, but maybe too much. Because in certain matchups it's certainly not the best direction for your deck.

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Originally Posted by seamonkeyman

Practical Joke, your list is 61 cards. Is that accurate?

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oops a catacombs to many..

Only play 15 lands instead of 16 listed.

61 is the new tech... isn't everyone up on that yet :)

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Originally Posted by Vesper Ghoul

I heard Ari Lax draws pretty well too.

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Magic: the Gathering. Skill game.

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

Magic: the Gathering. Skill game.

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I've been lurking the forums for a while trying to learn more about Legacy, but I had to finally post to point to the quote in my signature.

Yes, it's a skill game, and yes, deck design comes down to minimizing the effects of random draws. But in the end, unless you make efforts to do so, you don't control the top card of your deck.

ok, I vote no more talk about how well people draw cards...

I'm at a point now where I'm not sure if I want to play Meditate or Show & Tell in the board. Both fill the same role in the deck (another option post doomsday) however, show & tell has the advantage of taking up less slots alltogether.

I'm also going to give Practical's current sideboard a go. I do like Xantid vs. Fish and BUG.

Back to sideboarding with ANT:

Against which decks (other than CB) do you board Doomsday (with Emrakul)? I wouldn't board it vs 4-Wasteland.dec but might board it vs slower controldecks which play a lot of permanentbased stormhate (e.g. "Quinn", Enchantress).

On the other hand I can imagine that Doomsday with a Meditate-Tendrils-kill might be a good way to win in certain matchups. Therefore I am thinking about cutting the additional Ad Nauseam for a Meditate. Do you think that Doomsday (with Tendrils) is good backup plan vs. decks like BUG which play a lot of discard?

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Originally Posted by Irenicus

Back to sideboarding with ANT:

Against which decks (other than CB) do you board Doomsday (with Emrakul)? I wouldn't board it vs 4-Wasteland.dec but might board it vs slower controldecks which play a lot of permanentbased stormhate (e.g. "Quinn", Enchantress).

On the other hand I can imagine that Doomsday with a Meditate-Tendrils-kill might be a good way to win in certain matchups. Therefore I am thinking about cutting the additional Ad Nauseam for a Meditate. Do you think that Doomsday (with Tendrils) is good backup plan vs. decks like BUG which play a lot of discard?

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Not alot of decks since alot of the matchups that ask for it run wasteland and/or stifle. I'd rather board in bounce to deal with permanent hate as well.
Your Ad Nauseam gets even worse if you also add Meditate. My friend is testing +1 Meditate +1 Doomsday +1 Grim, +4 Top, -4 Preordain, -2 Mox, -1 Ad Nauseam and I'm not sure if he likes it really.
I suppose you could still run 2 Chrome Moxen and less Cabal Rituals (I'd still keep 2 though) in order to make AdN better but I'm not sure if the extra option outweighs a less good Ad Nauseam (and a harder decision tree).
I wouldn't play a meditate main without doomsday main, you don't board it in often enough imo. You could run it side though.

The Current List. I posted this on the StormBoards but figured I'd throw it up here as well.

//Main
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

4 Infernal Tutor
2 Grim Tutor
1 Ill Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize

4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Brainstorm
1 Ad Nauseam

4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Swamp
2 Island
2 Underground Sea

//Board
4 Doomsday
1 Shell-Dock Isle
1 Emrakul
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Tropical Island
2 CoV
1 Rebuild
1 Hurkyl's Recall

Chrome Mox - I don't like Chrome mox. There are very few spells you "want" to imprint before going off. That's the bad part. On the good side, it adds some raw power to the deck, makes getting hellbent without LED a bit easier, and brings the count of possible outs after AdN with no mana floating up to six. I have come to think that Mox's strongest asset to the deck is allowing you to run less (15 as opposed to 17) land while still having the same number of mana sources. Much Like Grim Tutor, I think it's a necessary evil.

Doomsday Package AND Xantid. The sideboard needs to be dedicated to the two worst matchups, Countertop and the BUG Team America decks...

Swarm has been the best thing I have found in the TA matchup (and it's pretty good vs. fish of course...) and of course DD is great vs. Top.

I've been playing a bit more Solidarity lately than ANT though... so maybe I'm out of touch :)ed

@leegoo: I like your list except for two small things. First, I think that the Bloodstained Mire should be a Verdant Catacombs. Being able to fetch up Tropical Island is more important than jedi mind tricking the opponont into believing you are plaing something else. Second, I'm a bit worried by your low number of CoVs. I've actually considered going op to four sometimes. My guess would be, that in a large tournament, you will lose too many games against random permanent based hate cards. I might be wrong though.