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Thoughts on Thoughtseize in a meta-game that is bound to have hate-bears, Cliques, and Snapcasters?
I played against someone who was running a 2/2 split between Duress and Seize, and Seize in the sideboard. This seems like it would too a bit too much damage though. Maybe move the Seize from the sb to the main-deck and leave a Duress in the board?
Thanks a lot.. that Chant during upkeep is brilliant. I wonder how you play the control roll though as I'm not really sure which spells to really hit with pyroblast. I guess discard hurts them, but our discard is rather weak to turn us into a control deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Spanish Tunnel King
Post board you have some active disruption (duress/thoughtsieze) and some... reactive disruption (4 chant effects and 3-4 pyroblasts). By 'becoming a control deck' I guess I mean using your own dig/cantrips to provide disruption to stop them going off rather than trying to advance your own game. This will help if the game goes longer (although, like I say, going turn 2-3 probably optimum if you have protection). Once you get to around turn 4 (where they probably can go) having 1 silence is usually no protection at all (as they go off in response) so that means that you have to go off (maybe just a few storm - goblins or minitendrils, so you don't get jacked...) and still have mana up to answer whatever they do (assuming you don't need LEDs :/). I always try and play a petal out early rather than for storm so at least I can bluff always having silence up.
So..... Where to disrupt?
I think that pyroblasts are prob the best weapon against them, as they can be used defensively (just like chant effects) or aggressively to shut down early cantrips. Imagine they open with a hand of.... say.... 1 island, 1 fetch, brainstorm, peer though depths, reset, cunning wish, force of will. Its a keeper, right? We'll say that you're a lucksack/mull well (I always find I need to be a bit of a lucksack when playing storm ^^) and you turn 1 duress away the force (prob should keep that for turn 2/3, but whatever) he goes land, go and you ponder or something. He plays out his second land then passes. You draw go too. He then tries to brainstorm (the best option, as he probably needs to dig for land drop no.3) which is pyroblasted. I think you just bought about 3-4 turns of hassle-free storm action :)). The faster your hand, the more aggressively I would use the pyroblasts (which seems a little counter-intuative). Or if you need to LED when going off just throw the things around. Its more effective than you think :).
Now consider a 'normal' go off for solidarity is 4 land in play, and a high tide, meditate, reset in hand. I think thats the bare minimum, although they probably have either 1 more dig spell or 1 piece of disruption (although force isn't too good here...). I won't count the 3-land go offs as they fizzle pretty well. If you can make them feel pressured enough to do that you probably win, variance aside...
So.... They go, high tide and look at you quizzically. Now what? Say you have 1 chant/pyroblast. If you use it now you give them the out of tap out, reset (float 3) and meditate (with 4 mana open). Maybe they hit the counter and dig, maybe they hit a reset and more shenanigans, or maybe even another high tide. I think its pretty dangerous (although very fizzle-able [if that is even a word :)]). I would probably let them resolve the tide into reset (float 4) then meditate (float 1 with 8 mana open). The mana engine has started, but if you can now hit the draw engine, they will be un-able to continue, as they have committed too many resources. You have 3 for 1'ed them. This is a bit more risky, but I think it shuts them down more, and more importantly, gives you more time while they try and rebuild. The free turn off the meditate is also relevant if the goblin beatdown plan is in action :)). After this pyroblast on meditate they will probably peer/impulse to try and find force or another meditate (at which point you're probably dead if they hit it, and if you can do nothing).
Another problem is making them feel like they have to go off if it goes long (turn 4-5). For this you need to duress them/bluff chant and have addition disruption if they go for it. If it gets here though its pretty bad.
Just to be aware of some tricks they do/can do (as well as brainfreeze your face off):
1)...They can wait until you storm up to infernal tutor and just mini brainfreeze you to try and hit the ad-nauseum/tendrils so you cant search for it.
2)...If they have twincast (which they might bring in from the board, although its a little 'cute') they can twincast AdN (which is pretty funny, and almost certainly fatal), or IGG (although you would never do that, im sure... ;)).
3)...Remand feels like a hard counter against us. Its probably their best disruption here.
4)...Once they have 3 lands beware cunningwish ---> mindbreak trap (although that is quite oldschool now).
5)...Er, thats all I can think of off the top of my head.
If you're feeling a bit of a fruity one, put a doomsday/Emrekul package on the board and just board in the emrekul for this matchup. It'll probably sneak one game if they dont expect it (although it'll prob. only work once :)). Just dont flip him off AdN like a boss ;).
The Spanish Tunnel King
Kanti, I was the one you were playing on MWS :) I made some misplays but like I said I just picked up this deck and I'm probably gonna grind this deck a lot in the following weeks and play this on the gp. It feels like the most unfair deck and it's sometimes not very consistent but it can get out of a lot of situations, like one game versus dredge he had white leyline in play but he was going quite slowly, however I made the mistake of not boarding in bounce or I couldn't find it or something. So I went for the 30 goblins plan via IGG. He discarded his hand which included Elesh Norn and he was 90% sure to Dread Return it next turn, shutting off that plan too. At which point I wished for Diminishing Returns (such a strong card versus Dredge) to shuffle his GY back and then made around 60 goblins :)
About the discard slots, like I said I feel like Thoughtseize has gone up in value because of Snapcaster. It really sucks to duress them and see Snappy with like a pierce in the GY. I don't know how often this will come up but I think the life loss is less important than the ability to snag a snap or a clique or preemptively take Canonist/MM etc turn 1/2. I feel like the wish target should be Duress though since that's less good to use preemptively, however still better against Clique/Snappy.
Like I said, I'm not very experienced with this deck yet, but I am quite experienced in Legacy and my general magic theory is quite sound, so this is based on my general legacy experience.
I've mashed some games in, and I'm getting more comfortable playing around hate, however in case you don't have Chant up how to profitably play around Clique? That's my worst enemy I feel like. Against greedy people I usually try and hold 2 cards before playing LED and then play wish/tutor with random card in hand. Because they were greedy they don't have the opportunity to get me with clique. But against opponents that can see this coming, how to play around it well?
PS: Sorry for my bad english, I'm foreign and very tired atm.
Hey, they were some fun games! I'll toss you a pm if you wanna test more for the gp.
If I were to run Seize I'd at most do the 3 Duress/1 Seize main with 1 Duress in the board. After playing the deck so much I really hate any form of life loss. You are only looking for non-creature spells anyhow when you Wish>Duress them anyhow.
The only way to profitably fight off a Clique is to Brainstorm in response. That or cast Ad Nauseam in rsp. On other words you are just going to have to deal with it ;/.
I was going to let you two keep losing due to Thoughtsieze, but it's just not worth playing. The lifeloss is much more than it presents, it's worse Ad Nauseams. The primary storm engine in our deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanti
All for? Being able to take a Clique or Snapcaster? Clique isn't that hard to play around, I've yet to lose to it's ability. As for Snapcaster, you're all talking about flashing back Spellpierce when you Duress them. There's much worse things to be staring down than having to pay an additional two mana once.
Taking hands with the deck and i got a hand of 2 led 1 lotus petal 1 burning wish 1 dark ritual 1 city of brass. After muling lol. Now i wanted to go for diminishing returns. But then i thought i might be being greedy should i get empty the warrens. I chose empty the warrens. Thoughts?
C'mon man, use the shift key. It's probably the one with dust all over it.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamer4life
If it's turn one, Empty the Warrens, turn two in some match-ups.
After that Diminishing Returns.
I'm in love with the bullshit I can do now that past in flames is in the sideboard. Burning wish T2 -> LED LED T3, crack flashback, dump hand. I almost want one main. Almost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
Lol i only post from my phone and there isn't one. Does it relly matter anyways? My love for legacy and intrest in t.e.s. is what should count right. After all thats what the source is about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
I thought i made the right choice. So u said after turn 2 its diminishing returns. Do the choices change if your on the play or the draw?
The source is also about Proper spelling/grammar/capitalization as per its rules. So there is that.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamer4life
Snapcaster isn't that bad but I doubt doing the 3 Duress/1 Seize with 1 Duress in the sb would be that bad. It would be more for hate bears if I played that, but at that point I might just switch decks. I was actually thinking about it and it doesn't even seem that profitable to hit Snapcaster a lot of times since they will have a hand full of non-creature spells, and Snap puts on a little clock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Anyhow, I'd rather discuss the issue of dealing with hatebears. I have loved Deathmark since it's a cheap answer but I hate dealing with Mother of Runes. Pyroclasm seems light years better in that regard. Or even Virtues Ruin?
Snapcaster isn't that bad but I doubt doing the 3 Duress/1 Seize with 1 Duress in the sb would be that bad. It would be more for hate bears if I played that, but at that point I might just switch decks. I was actually thinking about it and it doesn't even seem that profitable to hit Snapcaster a lot of times since they will have a hand full of non-creature spells, and Snap puts on a little clock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Anyhow, I'd rather discuss the issue of dealing with hatebears. I have loved Deathmark since it's a cheap answer but I hate dealing with Mother of Runes. Pyroclasm seems light years better in that regard. Or even Virtues Ruin?
Cook's Kitchen: Storming into the Past
This is the first of my weekly articles for Jupiter Games.
Punny title.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Also -- fuck this thread's grammar usage lately. It's such an eye sore.
Read it; it's pretty much every argument he made on here summed up. It makes a sound comparison between Past in Flames and Ad Nauseam as well as why Past in Flames should not be in the main deck. It also had a nice history of TES.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
What I'd like to read about, though, is Bryant's (or anyone else's) comments about replacing Diminishing Returns (DR) instead of Ill-gotten Gains (IGG) with Past in Flames (PIF).
Seriously, I feel like they are the most alike. IGG is so important against the aggro match up, I'd hate to throw that away because I failed to set up PIF. Bryant even admits in his article that PIF is slower to set up than IGG is. The reasoning I can think of for PIF replacing IGG is that double Ad Nauseam means that that is basically the only line of play against aggro to win, or later in the game Tutor chain (and DR I suppose).
The way I see it, DR and PIF occupy the same slot more so than any other storm engines. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but don't you simply cast DR for these reasons:
1. no life loss
2. getting new spells to cast because of a lack of storm
3. mid to late game when discard has stripped you down or counter magic has worn you out
Well guess what? PIF does these things with more accuracy. PIF is stronger in the late game and does not require Orim's Chant/Silence to resolve. IGG is necessary to beat aggro/sligh because with IGG, it's just easy. DR is based on luck and gets you there sometimes. I don't know about you guys, but "necessary" sounds a lot better than "sometimes"...
I'd like to hear anyone's comment on this, but I feel that at this point, if DR is only used for the above reasons, PIF should replace that instead of IGG.
I just don't understand why people hate on Diminishing Returns so much. You guys really are spoiled with the fact that you started playing combo post-Ad Nauseam. I cast Diminishing Returns all of the time, it's probably one of the most Burning Wish'd for cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
A few tips:
1.) It's not a last resort. I cast this bad boy all the time, in the early game too. I'm talking turn three or four off of Lands and a Lotus Petal. It's a means to a new hand, not always a means to winning the game.
2.) It's miles better against Hymn decks than Ill-Gotten Gains.
3.) Who cares, you fizzled. Odds are you can go off again next turn.
4.) It's chance not a guaranteed win. That's half the reason we play the card, guaranteed wins are often shut off. This gives us that fighting chance! Sometimes we just have to cross our fingers, reveal the flop, and draw 7.
5.) Speaking of draw 7's, you never hear Vintage players go, "Yeah man, Timetwister sucks!". That's probably because they weren't waiting until their last turn to cast it.
6.) You don't want to only play two identical storm engines in your sideboard with the same function, it creates situations where Graveyard removal actually becomes relevant against us. Part of the beauty of TES is that we always have options to win however we'd like, including winning around Graveyard hate, Meddling Mages, ect.
7.) What aggro decks are you so worried about that Ad Nauseam can't take care of? Ad Nauseam is great even against zoo on turns 1-2. We should be able to goldfish this match-up with one hand in our pocket showing them what we're doing below the table, on the table.
8.) I think I'm done rambling, I'm going to go Grapeshot someone.
Regarding point 5 above, I think Twister is quite niche in Vintage these days. This might have more to do with Lodestone Golem than anything else.
I haven't played this deck in months or been following the thread I have a few questions.
1) Whats the thinking on City of traitors in the mana base (wasn't on first page).
2) Has anyone tried more chant effects post board? It looks like there's going to be a meta with a lot of combo soon and this seems like a good plan.
3) Why are we using Shattering Spree again instead of Meltdown? I'm not complaining (I have a foil shattering spree) but meltdown seemed good.
4) Currently, what's this decks worst three matches.