[Deck] GW/x Maverick

1. The main problem with Knights into Karakas are as follows:

-Karakas doesn't stop Sneak Attack/Emrakul.

-Karakas doesn't stop Griselbrand from drawing his cards.

-Karakas gets rolled by Woodfall Primus

-Karakas loses to Hive Mind, Dream Halls, and Progenitus.

Not that stopping the Emrakul isn't huge, and not that it isn't just as important to stop Griselbody as Griselbargain. Knight combined with a Revoker/Needle shuts down Griselbrand. But Knight/Karakas isn't as catchall as it used to be.

2. I'm telling you guys. Add a Sylvan Safekeeper to your 60. Your RUG Delver matchup will jump 5-10% just because of all the games you don't lose to Submerge or burn stopping your Jitte dude from getting his first hit in.

EDIT: Also, Cavern of Souls on Humans is pretty real.

I've been playing Safekeeper in the main for a few months now, i've been pretty happy with it overall. I wouldn't cut down to 3 moms for it however. But as additional protection, it's been quite good. I do run 2 loams though, not sure if it will be as good without those.

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RUG should be a favorable match up. A few suggestions:
Play around Wasteland.
Play Choke.
Bring in extra removal in the form of Path to Exile or Gut Shot.
Umezawa's Jitte is a beatstick.
Scavenging Ooze is even better (just make sure it doesn't get Bolted right away - bring it into play when they are tapped out of R or when you have 3+ G available and 3+ creatures in the yard).

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/agree Ooze is amazing! & the Sylvan Safekeeper is better then Mom against RUG

Choke though is not as good as it appears. It does not stop force, if they are smart and leave daze in that allows them to untap additionaly many RUG players are playing a single Taiga. Choke still wrecks U and UW and some esper but is not a beating for a good RUG delver.

The better move is more removal if you stop their clock the late game goes to Maverick. PtE is great against RUG as they run no basics.

What do you guys think about Garruk Relentless ? There's a lot of newer lists using it, but I dont know, it seems a bit underpowered to me. Isn't Elspeth just better ?

Garruk is better against the Nic Fit type lists. The 2/2 (bigger body), deathtouch (flipped) and 'battle' ability can all be relevant. Also, the search feature can be nice to find your silver bullet. Elspeth is great against the mirror or anytime you need to break a ground stall with a jump boost. Both are good against control lists, as once they hit the board, it is hard for control players to answer a constant stream of tokens.

I think its inclusion is solely because it's easier to cast than Elspeth with Cavern of Souls in play.

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Originally Posted by majikal

I think its inclusion is solely because it's easier to cast than Elspeth with Cavern of Souls in play.

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Still don't agree with Caverns as inclusion for this deck. If you're trying to beat counter-based combo decks with Maverick, then you're playing the wrong deck.

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Originally Posted by Koby

Still don't agree with Caverns as inclusion for this deck. If you're trying to beat counter-based combo decks with Maverick, then you're playing the wrong deck.

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I think it's more so your Knight doesn't get Dazed against RUG Delver. I haven't tried it yet, but it looks interesting.

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Originally Posted by majikal

I think it's more so your Knight doesn't get Dazed against RUG Delver. I haven't tried it yet, but it looks interesting.

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That does not seem worth it.

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Originally Posted by mini1337s

That does not seem worth it.

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Whether it seems worth it or not, it's putting up results. I would not discount it so easily.

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Originally Posted by majikal

Whether it seems worth it or not, it's putting up results. I would not discount it so easily.

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Not to derail, but the person piloting a list has more to do with how often it wins rather than the specific cards that are played. Also see, Tom Martell and Lingering Souls.

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Originally Posted by Koby

Also see, Tom Martell and Lingering Souls.

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Implying that Lingering Souls has not put up the numbers it was expected to because the majority of Lingering Souls pilots are not as skilled as Tom Martell?

What about Lingering Souls' position in the meta at GP Indy? GP Indy was Lingering Souls' "coming out party". Martel realized it was a very strong list against the expected meta and played well (although he had some much needed draws - hit a 1-of Perish in his deck on the crucial turn in the Top 8 and had some other pretty sick hands/draws (not to discount his abilities as a player)). In any case, the meta has shifted. Cards like Sulfur Elemental, Dread of Night, Sulfuric Vortex, and Night of Soul's Betrayal all saw play after Tom Martell's GP Indy win. Going into GP Indy, Martell had to worry about none (or very few) of those cards.

It boils down to 3 factors that effect the outcome of matches:

1) Player skill. First and foremost, the skill of the player playing the deck. Secondly, the skill or lack of skill of the opponent.

2) Deck selection. Including overall deck choice and maindeck / sideboard decisions.

3) Variance or "luck". How much did you mulligan, what did you draw off the top, how much did your opponent mulligan, what did your opponent draw? How well did the two mesh? 3 Wastelands off the top against a RUG deck can equal victory, against a Burn deck, it is often death.

@Water_Wizard
More or less, yes that's my point. Some cards may be appearing in winning decklists that are new, untested, or overvalued by the viewer. This doesn't necessarily mean that those cards are instrumental in winning.

I think this is the case with Cavern of Souls. By Todd Andersons' feature matches from SCG Nashville:
Quarter-finals
Round 8

"Todd cast an uncounterable Knight of the Reliquary using Cavern of Souls (Human). While Todd announced the Cavern was being used, Randy tried to Force of Will anyway."
--- Game was won on Knight beatdown.

"Todd had no turn-two play, but on turn 3, he cast Knight of the Reliquary with a Cavern of Souls on Human. Knight was a 4/4."
"Thalia came down again, with Cavern mana."
--- Game was won with Gideon.

"Todd played Cavern of Souls on Human and used it to stick an Umezawa's Jitte. On his next turn, he played a third land to resolve Knight of the Reliquary as a 3/3."
"Darkblast got rid of the 1/1, and Todd untapped, found land, and resolved Knight of the Reliquary, as he announced the use of Cavern of Souls. Justin killed it with Swords to Plowshares."
"Todd found yet another Knight of the Reliquary, and Justin vialed in Umezawa's Jitte. Justin had Vindicate for the Knight on his turn."
---- Game was won with Garruk.

You decide whether the Cavern matters here.

@ Koby - I agree with you. When I first saw Cavern of Souls, I never thought it would see play in Maverick (maybe in Goblins or a Welder/Chalice of the Void MUD build). I don't see the need for Cavern. If they want to Force, I'll take a 2 for 1. I can play around Daze. Most of our Humans aren't affected by Spell Snare (except Thalia). Spell Pierce, which I would venture to say is the most common counter (or at least tied with FOW), does't even hit creatures.

I appreciate the research you provided in the form of quotes (as a law school student, I spend countless time doing research and quoting legal cases and statutes).

For the sake of completeness, I want to point out some quotes in favor of Cavern of Souls.

From the Tournament Reports Section (this deck took 36/732 players at the Bazaar of Moxen Event):

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Originally Posted by Snief

I registered the following list:

2 Cavern of Souls
3 Wasteland
4 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Horizon Canopy

4 Mother of Runes
1 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scryb Ranger
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Aven Mindcensor

2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sylvan Library
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares

SB:
2 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Life from the Loam
2 Krosan Grip
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Choke
2 Path to Exile
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Bojuka Bog

Short Sidenote: I played Cavern of Souls for the first time this weekend and upped them short after from 1 to 2. I would play more but that would be too much colorless mana. They are that good!

Round 9: RUG
I play against an Italian guy who plays RUG which I know because I watched a match from him in the second round. Yay for byes!
Game 1 I win because of Cavern of Souls. Playing uncounterable Knights is THAT good :D

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Not to mention, the deck that split Top 4 also ran 2 Cavern of Souls (plus a lot of "free" counterspells/graveyard interaction in the sideboard).

Maverick by Marc Duran:

Lands (21)
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Forest
1 Gaeas Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Karakas
1 Plains
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

Creatures (24)
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Scryb Ranger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Kitchen Finks

Artifacts (2)
2 Umezawas Jitte

Enchantments (2)
2 Sylvan Library

Instants (5)
1 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares

Sorceries (4)
4 Green Suns Zenith

Planeswalkers (2)
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Garruk Relentless

Sideboard (15)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Choke
4 Mindbreak Trap
1 Path to Exile
4 Surgical Extraction

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

1. The main problem with Knights into Karakas are as follows:

-Karakas doesn't stop Sneak Attack/Emrakul.

-Karakas doesn't stop Griselbrand from drawing his cards.

-Karakas gets rolled by Woodfall Primus

-Karakas loses to Hive Mind, Dream Halls, and Progenitus.

Not that stopping the Emrakul isn't huge, and not that it isn't just as important to stop Griselbody as Griselbargain. Knight combined with a Revoker/Needle shuts down Griselbrand. But Knight/Karakas isn't as catchall as it used to be.

2. I'm telling you guys. Add a Sylvan Safekeeper to your 60. Your RUG Delver matchup will jump 5-10% just because of all the games you don't lose to Submerge or burn stopping your Jitte dude from getting his first hit in.

EDIT: Also, Cavern of Souls on Humans is pretty real.

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Knight/ Karakas doesn't stop Sneak Attack only if the knight has summoning sickness. Remember Sneak Attack just give the creature haste, you can have them bounce the Emrakul or Griselbargain during the main phase. If they are not packing MD hate for you it's a pretty easy way to stop the attack. MD they do not pack any hate to stop Karakas, assuming they do not have a one of Progen.

1. Also is Krosan Grip still a possibility to battle Sneak and Show? I haven't seen any maverick decks run/ need it up until now.

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Originally Posted by Water_Wizard

Not to mention, the deck that won the whole event

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Top 4 did split.

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Originally Posted by Darkness

Knight/ Karakas doesn't stop Sneak Attack only if the knight has summoning sickness. Remember Sneak Attack just give the creature haste, you can have them bounce the Emrakul or Griselbargain during the main phase. If they are not packing MD hate for you it's a pretty easy way to stop the attack. MD they do not pack any hate to stop Karakas, assuming they do not have a one of Progen.
[/LIST]

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You are forgetting that you can tap Karakas only ONCE PER TURN.

Karakas does stop a stupid Sneaky player, thats right. But if he knows, that he just has to have 2 Red mana, he can play around Karakas easily, even with just 1 Emrakul. E.g.: SnT player Plays Sneak Attack and after paying 4 mana he has 1 untapped Volcanic Island and 1 Lous Petal left on board, and you have an active Knight. Then SnT play activates Sneak Attack by tapping Volcanic Island for R for the first time>>>

1.) >> you activate KotR at end of mainphase and bounce Emrakul with Karakas.
2.) >> you activate KotR at end of the beginning of combat step and bounce Emrakul with Karakas.
3.) >> you activate KotR in response to the annihilator trigger and bounce Emrakul with Karakas, then sacrifice 6 permanents.

If you follow Way 1.) your opponent activates SA with the Petal and brings in Emrakul again, then attacks you for 15 + annihilator.

If you follow Way 2.) your opponent activates SA with the Petal and brings in Emrakul just in the beginning of combat step, before declare attackers and attacks you for 15 + annihilator.

If you choose Way 3.) you only sacrifice 6 permanents and dont get dmg, but your opponent has Emrakul in his hand again and is going to kill you next turn.


So the best way is to tutor Maze of Ith in response to annihilator so emrakul dies at eot and you get no dmg, even that is an incredibly bad deal.

This is my current list I'm bringing to SCG Worcester, MA.

Creatures:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryab Ranger
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Knight of the Reliquary

Artifacts:
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Enchantments:
1 Sylvan Library

Instants:
4 Sword to Plowshares

Sorceries:
4 Green Sun's Zenith

Lands:
3 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

SB:
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Path to Exile
2 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Choke
2 Krosan Grip
1 Gideon Jura

1. Bog and Crypt are for Dredge/ GY hate
2. Path is an extra removal for creature decks and RUG. Gideon is there for Mirror Thinking about putting Linvala or Elspeth in his spot.
3. Choke is for RUG, Esper, UW Miracle
4. Needle Teeg Ethersworn + E Tutor are for combo alongside K. Grip for Sneak Attack and random hate to stop my creatures, i.e. Humility Ensaring Bridge, Cursed Totem, esc.

Cavern of Souls is catchall enough to run. That colorless isn't going to bite you in the ass very often - You only have one turn one play that Cavern on Humans doesn't cover - Green Sun's Zenith into Dryad Arbor, and you don't really have -any- double mana symbols in the deck. Pridemage and Teeg are the only difficult casts.

Not getting your dudes Dazed/Forced is pretty huge.

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Originally Posted by Sedris

You are forgetting that you can tap Karakas only ONCE PER TURN.

Karakas does stop a stupid Sneaky player, thats right. But if he knows, that he just has to have 2 Red mana, he can play around Karakas easily, even with just 1 Emrakul. E.g.: SnT player Plays Sneak Attack and after paying 4 mana he has 1 untapped Volcanic Island and 1 Lous Petal left on board, and you have an active Knight. Then SnT play activates Sneak Attack by tapping Volcanic Island for R for the first time>>>

1.) >> you activate KotR at end of mainphase and bounce Emrakul with Karakas.
2.) >> you activate KotR at end of the beginning of combat step and bounce Emrakul with Karakas.
3.) >> you activate KotR in response to the annihilator trigger and bounce Emrakul with Karakas, then sacrifice 6 permanents.

If you follow Way 1.) your opponent activates SA with the Petal and brings in Emrakul again, then attacks you for 15 + annihilator.

If you follow Way 2.) your opponent activates SA with the Petal and brings in Emrakul just in the beginning of combat step, before declare attackers and attacks you for 15 + annihilator.

If you choose Way 3.) you only sacrifice 6 permanents and dont get dmg, but your opponent has Emrakul in his hand again and is going to kill you next turn.


So the best way is to tutor Maze of Ith in response to annihilator so emrakul dies at eot and you get no dmg, even that is an incredibly bad deal.

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Touché