[Primer] Nic Fit

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Originally Posted by Kobra_D

Yeah, but it will be the last wednesday before halloween, and the gitrog monster is a monster, who is scared of chameleons. When Gitrog was first introduced a gsz'th magus of the crucible didn't exist. This might be able to push it, or might not. Why speculate when we have the tools to test?



I'm always down for destructive flow, but I would suggest something like that with a grain of salt. As it says on the front page, there is no correct way to play nic fit.

And you can make very powerful land destruction decks like maverick work in a nic fit-y shell. But inherently, we are giving our opponents mana to play their spells. We mitigate this, 1 by playing more basics than most decks, and 2 by having better cards in a vacuum along side cheaper interaction.

So it's not that anything like that can't work, but even giving an opponent 1-2 basics (the most I've seen in decks like BUG/Czech Pile), that just represents 1 more mana that you have to constrain.

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Giving the opponent mana from Explorer is somewhat conflicting, but most decks only run 1-2 basics, which then turns the Ghost Quarter's into Strip Mine's. The deck doesn't necessarily need to completely mana denial the opponent though... the card advantage that Destructive Flow generates tends to put the deck pretty far ahead in most fair matchups.

At any rate, I'm about to drive out to EW, so I don’t have time to post my list right now, but I promise I will when I have time.

Here is the list I was talking about...

G/B/r Nic-Flow

Lands (23)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Badlands
5 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Ghost Quarter

Creatures (15)
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tireless Tracker
2 Ramunap Excavator
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

Spells (22)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Fatal Push
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Destructive Flow

I'm still up in the air with the sideboard, so I'm not going to post it yet.

The deck is still fairly early in development. There are some good options like Walking Ballista and Toxic Deluge which could find their way into the maindeck. Collective Brutality is also an interesting option.

I trimmed the Scavenging Ooze and Reclamation Sage because I didn't want to cut anything else. I think that Ramunap as a 2-of is the perfect amount. I'm not sure if I should include a Dryad Arbor, but it seems kinda greedy with Flow so I'm not running one for now.

I'm not 100% sure about DRS, but the deck has a bunch of high impact 3 drops that I'd like to be able to cast on turn 2 when possible. It's also possible to take the deck into more of an Aggro Loam direction with Mox Diamond and Chalice of the Void instead, cutting the Nic Fit package (Explorer/Therapy). Another idea I had was to cut the Thoughtseize for Crop Rotation with a Bojuka Bog and Cabal Pit, which both play nice with Flow, but I like being able to consistently rip the opponent's hand apart. Hymn to Tourach is another possibility, but I think Thoughtseize has more synergy with Therapy, and getting double black on turn 2 is pretty difficult with the manabase configuration required to support Flow.

The biggest thing I was trying to accomplish was to build a deck with Destructive Flow that would be both fun and competitive. I feel like this current iteration accomplishes that.

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Originally Posted by Brael

On Gitrog, I would rather use the GSZ on a Tireless Tracker. It's less mana, just as many cards (if not more), plays better with Crop Rotation, plays better with Bob, and comes down a good 4-5 turns sooner. I think the combination of Tracker+Chameleon Colossus removes pretty much any possible niche Gitrog might fill.

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Most importantly: it's good on its own, without depending on other cards for much needed synergy. Just keep playing the game as you normally would and reap the rewards as you go along.

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Originally Posted by Kobra_D

Yeah, but it will be the last wednesday before halloween, and the gitrog monster is a monster, who is scared of chameleons. When Gitrog was first introduced a gsz'th magus of the crucible didn't exist. This might be able to push it, or might not. Why speculate when we have the tools to test?

...

I'm always down for destructive flow, but I would suggest something like that with a grain of salt. As it says on the front page, there is no correct way to play nic fit.

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Still doesn't solve Gitrog's problem though - it depends on other cards to function optimally, hence you shouldn't bother with it. Just GSZ for Sigarda/Carnage Tyrant (depending on what colours you run) and call it a day.

As for your last comment: Be that as it may, that does not mean that there aren't wrong ways to play Nic Fit.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Giving the opponent mana from Explorer is somewhat conflicting, but most decks only run 1-2 basics, which then turns the Ghost Quarter's into Strip Mine's.

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In my limited understanding, this seems like the same reason for using Path to Exile over Swords to Plowshares: you're already giving them basics with Explorer, they will likely run out, one more basic land doesn't really matter and quite possibly it becomes W:exile target creature with no drawback. Ghost Quarter becomes Strip Mine after 1-2 explorer triggers. I also think this GQ interaction is relevant because of Turbo Depths, which names Wasteland often and uses GQ instead to deal with trouble lands. It looks a lot like a modern format consideration, but I might sideboard a Ghost Quarter just for this reason.

Just a question: does your deck feel light on threats?

Played against Grixis Delver, UWx Control, Dragon Stompy, Mono Black Pox, BUG Midrange, and Show and Tell last night (some online and some in person) with overall good results.

Lands (22)
3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Treetop Village
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures (18)
2 Walking Ballista
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth

Noncreatures (20)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Crop Rotation
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Collective Brutality
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Sylvan Library
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge


Sideboard (15)
1 Maze of Ith
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crop Rotation
1 Golgari Charm
2 Lost Legacy
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Nissa, Vital Force

First of all, Tireless Tracker is an absolute all star. I definitely agree with Brael that you should have at least 3 in this kind of build. Crop Rotation with Tracker is insane. I also decided to try Walking Ballista. I do like the fact that it can be played on T2 as a 1/1 and can hit Strix, Pyromancer, unflipped Delvers, Hierarch, etc. while taking 0 from Bob. However, I did not draw it enough to decide if it should stay in the deck. I wish there was an easier way to search it up. I thought about trying a single Traverse the Ulvenwald but obtaining delirium in this build is more difficult than BUG (no Strix). So far I have liked Treetop Village as a way to deal with Jace and give you a threat post Pernicious Deed. It will stay in for the time being. Meren/Titania with Karakas was great. Finally, I am on the fence about Dryad Arbor. It allows for a T2 Lost Legacy/3 mana removal spell, is good with Meren and it can be fetched EOT but it dies to Deed or Deluge.

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Amulet of the HangingLamp

First of all, Tireless Tracker is an absolute all star. I definitely agree with Brael that you should have at least 3 in this kind of build. Crop Rotation with Tracker is insane. I also decided to try Walking Ballista. I do like the fact that it can be played on T2 as a 1/1 and can hit Strix, Pyromancer, unflipped Delvers, Hierarch, etc. while taking 0 from Bob. However, I did not draw it enough to decide if it should stay in the deck. I wish there was an easier way to search it up. I thought about trying a single Traverse the Ulvenwald but obtaining delirium in this build is more difficult than BUG (no Strix). So far I have liked Treetop Village as a way to deal with Jace and give you a threat post Pernicious Deed. It will stay in for the time being. Meren/Titania with Karakas was great. Finally, I am on the fence about Dryad Arbor. It allows for a T2 Lost Legacy/3 mana removal spell, is good with Meren and it can be fetched EOT but it dies to Deed or Deluge.

Thoughts?

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Just think of Walking Ballista as a removal spell. You don't necessarily need to tutor it, it's just a versatile card when you do, though I have been experimenting with red/white to tutor it.

I would stay away from Traverse.

Dryad Arbors main purpose is that it's another way to develop your mana, to get to 3 on T2.

One thing you may want to consider, is not playing Deed, since you noted many interactions that are bad with Deed.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Most importantly: it's good on its own, without depending on other cards for much needed synergy. Just keep playing the game as you normally would and reap the rewards as you go along.



Still doesn't solve Gitrog's problem though - it depends on other cards to function optimally, hence you shouldn't bother with it. Just GSZ for Sigarda/Carnage Tyrant (depending on what colours you run) and call it a day.

As for your last comment: Be that as it may, that does not mean that there aren't wrong ways to play Nic Fit.

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I get what you're going for here, but in a technical sense it is wrong.

By themselves, Gitrog doesn't require anything more to work. Tireless tracker requires land drops and 2 mana per clue to function. You can easily argue or debate over cmc versus power, or the fact that Gitrog is hosed by a value karakas, but that doesn't change the fucntioning by themselves clause of your argument.

Bob by definition has been a build around creature. So, to say that Gitrog doesn't play well with confidant further goes against your previous argument against Gitrog.

What are these optimal cards to function correctly? By itself it's a 6/6 death touch beater. You can argue it gets blocked by elemental tokens, but so does Tracker.

I'm not saying that the intuition on Gitrog is wrong, but things have changed since it was tried previously. Why not re-evaluate the card?

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Originally Posted by Kobra_D

I get what you're going for here, but in a technical sense it is wrong.

By themselves, Gitrog doesn't require anything more to work. Tireless tracker requires land drops and 2 mana per clue to function. You can easily argue or debate over cmc versus power, or the fact that Gitrog is hosed by a value karakas, but that doesn't change the fucntioning by themselves clause of your argument.

Bob by definition has been a build around creature. So, to say that Gitrog doesn't play well with confidant further goes against your previous argument against Gitrog.

What are these optimal cards to function correctly? By itself it's a 6/6 death touch beater. You can argue it gets blocked by elemental tokens, but so does Tracker.

I'm not saying that the intuition on Gitrog is wrong, but things have changed since it was tried previously. Why not re-evaluate the card?

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But the thing is, both Titania and Gitrog are 5cc, and Titania is almost always going to be better. Making 5/3 tokens is better than drawing a card, and Titania gives you immediate value by returning a land. Gitrog really needs Loam to get insane value, but if I'm playing Loam, I'd rather play Worm Harvest at 5cc.

Also, Gitrog effectively halts the development of your manabase. One land out, one land in (if you draw one). So possibly you destroy your own mana develipment, effecrively reverting you to the midgame.

Feel free to try it out for yourself though. I'm just telling you what the result will be.

Gitrog does let you play an additional land per turn so if you have lands you can continue to develop your manabase. Having tried both I can tell that is seldom the case and that titania closes the game, with in a single turn, which is what I expect from a 5-drop rather than CA (titania into fetch into crop wasteland yourself is 25 power)

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Originally Posted by Lueseto

Gitrog does let you play an additional land per turn so if you have lands you can continue to develop your manabase. Having tried both I can tell that is seldom the case and that titania closes the game, with in a single turn, which is what I expect from a 5-drop rather than CA (titania into fetch into crop wasteland yourself is 25 power)

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I'm not a big Titania fan but Titania into fetch, into crop, into fetch is still a reasonable line that doesn't rely on Wasteland and gets you 20 power.

Ooh, Arianrhod (spelling? never get it right) live playing Scapefit at www.twitch.tv/cardtitan at Eternal Weekend.

Edit:
Playing vs ANT, that can be rough.

G1: ANT goes off on t2 with Past in Flames.
G2: t3 Lost Legacy for something. I'm going to guess Tendrils, there's still an Empty the Warrens in the deck. Kevin wins, Ruben drew a lot of Hurkyl's Recalls and Decay, commentators are speculating that he overboarded, not knowing what he was up against.
G3: Ruben starts with Probe + Duress taking Kevin's Therapy. Kevin draws Thoughtseize and takes Dark Ritual from a hand of 2 Ponder and 1 Ritual. A few turns later Kevin has a hand of 2 lands and a Scapeshift and a board of 4 lands. It seems like a topdecked GSZ or Veteran will end it, there's a Therapy in the Graveyard. Ruben is at 13, Kevin draws the GSZ. Therapys, Brainstorm in response.. Shows 3 sorceries. Kevin Scapeshifts and - yep, 2-1!

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Originally Posted by pettdan

Ooh, Arianrhod (spelling? never get it right) live playing Scapefit at www.twitch.tv/cardtitan at Eternal Weekend.

Edit:
Playing vs ANT, that can be rough.

G1: ANT goes off on t2 with Past in Flames.

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Lol, dammit.

Concerning lands and Gitrog - in order to play them, you need to draw them. Wanting to keep drawing lands to keep your landcount constant (or growing) sounds like a poor plan.

Is it Nic Fit? It looks to me like it's just Scapeshift. But I've only seen game 3.

NM. There's a Vet. Looks like he wins.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Lol, dammit.

Concerning lands and Gitrog - in order to play them, you need to draw them. Wanting to keep drawing lands to keep your landcount constant (or growing) sounds like a poor plan.

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Given fetchlands and Crop Rotation, if Gitrog comes down on say turn 7 you're probably looking at around 14/40 cards remaining in your deck that are lands. So in order for your mana development to just break even you need to draw nearly 3 cards/turn. Gitrog gives you 1, and your draw gives you 1, so you need something else to give you 1. If you want your mana to continue to develop, you're looking at needing 6 cards/turn, which is 4/turn after Gitrog. And even then, it's a rate that can only be sustained for a few turns before your deck is totally out of lands, and your mana development again goes backwards.

I'm not a fan of Titania, but as far as 5 drops go, Titania is much, much better. 5/3 tokens are still effectively free cards.

Is there any decklist available for something similar to what was just seen in the EW? I really liked how it looked and I''ve been thinking of getting a new Legacy deck finally.

We have a new opportunity with Ramunap Excavator. Life from the Loam and even crop rotation are not necessary in a build (although may still provide value). I'm just saying that things have changed, it might be worthwhile to reevaluate some cards. Far from saying that Gitrog is the best and solves all scenarios, but it does do something cool worth checking out.

All that being said, it's probably not going to work out but I do have the cards, and the time. Getting 10 matches in can only help.

**I can't believe I missed valakut on stream >.>

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Originally Posted by Icapica

Is there any decklist available for something similar to what was just seen in the EW? I really liked how it looked and I''ve been thinking of getting a new Legacy deck finally.

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Edit: hmm, would it be better to wait until after the tournament? In case some opponent is curious to read the decklist before a round. I'll just wait a few hours updating. I found the list anyway. Probably ridiculous but well.

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Originally Posted by Icapica

Is there any decklist available for something similar to what was just seen in the EW? I really liked how it looked and I''ve been thinking of getting a new Legacy deck finally.

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4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Regisaur Alpha
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Carnage Tyrant

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Burning Wish
2 Scapeshift

2 Abrupt Decay

2 Nissa, Vital Force

2 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed

4 Badlands
4 Taiga
2 Bayou
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

sb::
1 Scapeshift
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Pyroclasm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Innocent Blood
1 Lost Legacy
2 Slaughter Games
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pulse of Murasa

I believe this is where Kevin landed this weekend, plus or minus a card or two. This is the most recent list I have from him as of a few days ago, with the Pulse of Murasa in the board being a flex slot that he and I have discussed a fair amount.

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Originally Posted by Brael

Given fetchlands and Crop Rotation, if Gitrog comes down on say turn 7 you're probably looking at around 14/40 cards remaining in your deck that are lands. So in order for your mana development to just break even you need to draw nearly 3 cards/turn. Gitrog gives you 1, and your draw gives you 1, so you need something else to give you 1. If you want your mana to continue to develop, you're looking at needing 6 cards/turn, which is 4/turn after Gitrog. And even then, it's a rate that can only be sustained for a few turns before your deck is totally out of lands, and your mana development again goes backwards.

I'm not a fan of Titania, but as far as 5 drops go, Titania is much, much better. 5/3 tokens are still effectively free cards.

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You're awesome!

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Originally Posted by Kobra_D

We have a new opportunity with Ramunap Excavator. Life from the Loam and even crop rotation are not necessary in a build (although may still provide value). I'm just saying that things have changed, it might be worthwhile to reevaluate some cards. Far from saying that Gitrog is the best and solves all scenarios, but it does do something cool worth checking out.

All that being said, it's probably not going to work out but I do have the cards, and the time. Getting 10 matches in can only help.

**I can't believe I missed valakut on stream >.>

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Dude, the math says we don't and things haven't changed enough. I'm sorry man, it's just not gonna work. Please do know that I'd honestly love to be proven wrong though! Let us know how your testing works out!