[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by Mantis

I am not afraid of ANT. That said, its probably not in our favor, but Chalice and REB definately give you a good shot.

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Well, hoping to face noobs is not really my plan to win :tongue: but I guess with 8 SB slots devoted to combo things appear a lot more fair. However, I don't have all that SB space. I got something like 3 slots to work with.

EDIT: I'm testing again with a couple Relics maindeck, with this list:

// Lands
15 [7E] Mountain (1)
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [MM] Rishadan Port

// Creatures
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief
4 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
2 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [TE] Mogg Fanatic
4 [US] Goblin Matron
2 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
2 [PLC] Stingscourger

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 3 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 2 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 3 Open slots

Relic proved to be quite good, actually.

Is Rw still worthwhile? It seems like I'm hearing a lot about mono-R, Rb, and etc, but not anything anymore about Rw. Is it viable anymore? Or out of vogue? I haven't kept up with the archetype at all...

I am testing 3 Dystopias side. Anarchy does clear the board, and is way better against Elspeth, but a one sided abyss is pretty hot. along with warren weirding and Stingscourger you can pretty effectively clear a path. Also, How are people liking Boartusk from the side?

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Originally Posted by kidsmokin

Is Rw still worthwhile? It seems like I'm hearing a lot about mono-R, Rb, and etc, but not anything anymore about Rw. Is it viable anymore? Or out of vogue? I haven't kept up with the archetype at all...

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White offers some disenchant effects and some non-goblin removal at the cost of splashing a color. Once you're splashing, opening your manabase to stifle/waste, shy not just splash 2 colors and get the best goblin removl (Weirding) and best disenchant effect (Krosan Grip, Tin Street)? I don't see white being the optimal splash right now.

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Originally Posted by TheCramp

I am testing 3 Dystopias side. Anarchy does clear the board, and is way better against Elspeth, but a one sided abyss is pretty hot. along with warren weirding and Stingscourger you can pretty effectively clear a path. Also, How are people liking Boartusk from the side?

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I was playing it too in a Rb version with Ports. It was quite difficult to reach the second Black mana. However, it might work for you.
Boartusk is quite good, at least in the monored version. Never tested it in the Rb splash.

Aha I just came back to magic, glad to see people have an active topic here discussing my favorite deck (: So much has changed though.

Question: why is no one running kiki-jiki anymore? I mean I've always been a competitive (but casual) player, is he just not tourney quality? Also I figured people would be more willing to run prospectors instead of fanatics with the new M10 rules changes, but I guess people bank on getting their warchiefs out with vials/lackeys and not wasting their turn 2 on it. I've actually won a few games with Boggart Shenanigans (which no one runs lol, but I like 1 of)+sharpshooter+prospector, usually fueled with ringleader. Granted it's a lot of cards to come up with, but I like the alternative win if my gobs can't get through.

I haven't had a chance to playtest rb but I'll give it a shot this week and if findings are good I'll post.

here's why people no longer run Kiki jiki... You're in top deck mode with nothing in play, you draw Kiki Jiki, wouldn't a Seige Gang have been way better? Yes true story.

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Originally Posted by true story

here's why people no longer run Kiki jiki... You're in top deck mode with nothing in play, you draw Kiki Jiki, wouldn't a Seige Gang have been way better? Yes true story.

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Good point. I just read through the last 40 pages or so here so I think I'm caught up now, sorry about the trigger-finger post.

Here's my current decklist, I'll be testing it this weekend:

Creatures:
2x Earwig Squad
3x Gempalm Incinerator
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Warchief
2x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Wort, Boggart Auntie

Spells:
4x Warren Weirding
4x Aether Vial

Lands:
4x Auntie's Hovel
4x Blood Crypt
8x Mountain
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland

Sideboard
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Pyrokinesis
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Boartusk Liege
2 Anarchy
2 REB

(I am too poor for badlands + fetchlands, more important things to buy atm)

My playtests have shown strong, I wish I could fit some sharpshooters and Frogtossers in there (and maybe another SGC) but I'll have to deal. Also still haven't tested out Stingscourgers. It might even be better to put it back to monored, replace the earwigs with prospectors (8 first turn drops sucks so hard), wort with SCG, and warrens with scourgestingers, thereby fixing my mana issues. I'll have to play around with it and give it a try.

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Originally Posted by true story

here's why people no longer run Kiki jiki... You're in top deck mode with nothing in play, you draw Kiki Jiki, wouldn't a Seige Gang have been way better? Yes true story.

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People just don't play goblins anymore which I don't understand. It still has a good game against most of the field and beats the piss out of merfolk.

~True Story~

I recently started to pick up the mono red list. I've been kicking ass on mws to most decks actually I really love the list and will be picking up the cards irl.

After a multiple day vacation of playing and playing and playing with my RB list, here's where my list currently stands.

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Badlands
4 Mountain
4 Wasteland
2 Gemstone Caverns

4 Aether Vial
4 Warren Weirding

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Frogtosser Banneret
3 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Goblin Tinkerer

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Thoughtseize
4 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus

Four tiny little screwaround tournaments got Goblins a win and three top 4's, where it lost to Landstill, Survival, and Magnivore.

Gemstone Caverns was amazing all week. The ratio of times I got to start with it on the draw versus the times it hurt me for being colorless was over 2-1, and overall I found it to be a hugely positive addition, largely negating the strong tempo boosts I'd have to fight through otherwise.

I decided I wanted a Tinkerer after having occasional problems with artifacts ranging from Merfolk's Vials/Jittes to DS's Chalices to Landstill's Mishra's Factory (Tinkerer is GREAT for this when you lose Port!) to random crap like Isochron Scepter. It's been pretty good so far.

The 6 slots for Gempalm/Frogtosser kept bouncing from 4/2 to 2/4 to 3/3 all weekend. It's at 3/3 until I get more testing in. Both were solid all week, and both make each other better (Gempalm's a decent fighter when he starts costing one mana).

Needle was strong all weekend. If you aren't splashing for Grip, run this. I was able to shut down Survivals, Factories, Deeds, Elspeths, Garruks, Jaces, Jittes, SOFI's, Scepters, Mutavaults, and even Fetchlands in matches where I needed more mana disruption. I liked it as an all-purpose answer to all kinds of things.

Pyrokinesis was as godly as ever. A brief experiment to replace it with Tarfire quickly told me I needed to quit designing decks after downing a lot of Admiral Nelson's, and Pyrokinesis quickly recovered it's slot.

Thoughtseize and Relic of Progenitus were both solid. Relic could easily be the 4 over Needle depending on what I expected to face. Relic was strong against Survival and Ichorid, but not really useful against much else.

I did also learn that Relic's less of the auto-include for the graveyard slot than it used to be. Relic was once or twice too slow to stop Ichorid in testing, and shrinking Goyfs was less of a problem than it used to be. That said, the cantripping makes it probably the best option still, as my build's too controlling to warrant it being Leyline, Extirpate sucks in aggressive decks, and Crypt is just less than spectacular sometimes.

@Tacosnape: Have you tried out Cabal Therapy instead of Thoughtseize? I've always preferred Therapy due to just being good with it and reading signals.

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

@Tacosnape: Have you tried out Cabal Therapy instead of Thoughtseize? I've always preferred Therapy due to just being good with it and reading signals.

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Given that I have the reputation in Alabama of being the Jesus of any card that says "Name a Card" on it, especially Therapy after winning a 30+ person cash tournament on a series of perfect blind Therapies, you'd think I'd favor Therapy more. But my build, especially without Fanatic? I strangely didn't like it. I had trouble flashing it back fast enough for it to be better.

If I were going to run Therapy, I'd change things around and run Mogg War Marshal, who just screams Therapy synergy.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Gemstone Caverns was amazing all week. The ratio of times I got to start with it on the draw versus the times it hurt me for being colorless was over 2-1, and overall I found it to be a hugely positive addition, largely negating the strong tempo boosts I'd have to fight through otherwise.

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Caverns indeed seems amazing in this list, with that good number of 2cc drops.
Going first turn Banneret, Second turn Ringleader seems just too good to pass by. :wink:
If I was playing black, I'd play your version.

@Tacos: When do you side Seize in? combo? In what matches is it relevant to side it in, and take creatures from their hand?

Also, dont you miss CotV? I just cant have a SB without 4 of them.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

SB:
4 Pyrokinesis
4 Thoughtseize
4 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus

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Strange... I guess there is no Engineered Plague in your area? Last tournament I played with 4 Cabal Therapies in the Sideboard. I faced 2 Eva Green decks but Cabal Therapy didn't hit any Engineered Plagues. Instead they top decked them constantly. They have enough removal to survive your early rush.

Thoughtseize wont be any good with Plagues... in my experience it's the plagues in their deck that kill your and not the ones in their opening hand.

Why care about combo matches?

I prefer to improove my matches against agroo, control and aggro control MU.

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Originally Posted by ScatmanX

@Tacos: When do you side Seize in? combo? In what matches is it relevant to side it in, and take creatures from their hand?

Also, dont you miss CotV? I just cant have a SB without 4 of them.

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While I realize this isn't as specific an answer as you're looking for, I side in Thoughtseize whenever it's better than something else in my deck. More simplified, it comes in against control, combo, and goblin hate. More often than not, it's going to come in for a removal Goblin. I won't ever side it in for the explicit purpose of hitting creatures, and I'll rarely bring it in against threat-heavy decks unless they have something I have no chance of dealing with outside of Thoughtseize.

Against Landstill, for example, I'd bring in Thoughtseize and Needle rather than the weak removal I have. Against Storm Combo, out goes Warren Weirding, in comes Thoughtseize. Against Enchantress? Gempalm Incinerator goes for Thoughtseize.

As for Chalice, truth be told? I've never been a fan of Chalice in sideboard. Ever. That said, if any list is actually going to run Chalice, this is probably the best one ever short of Chrome Mox/Tomb lists, as it can actually Chalice for 1 without too much worry if need be, and can drop it turn one on the draw. I might try this out.

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Originally Posted by Avatara

Strange... I guess there is no Engineered Plague in your area? Last tournament I played with 4 Cabal Therapies in the Sideboard. I faced 2 Eva Green decks but Cabal Therapy didn't hit any Engineered Plagues. Instead they top decked them constantly. They have enough removal to survive your early rush.

Thoughtseize wont be any good with Plagues... in my experience it's the plagues in their deck that kill your and not the ones in their opening hand.

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And what exactly is R/B supposed to do about Plague? Run crap like Mad Auntie, Goblin King, Boartusk Liege, or Dralnu's Crusade? No thanks. If you'll recall Goblin history, for a long time certain builds of Goblins' solution to Engineered Plague was just to ignore it, and if you got double plagued out you got double plagued out. Granted, this is less of a sure thing than it used to be as Goblins wins far fewer game 1's than it used to, but there you go.

Saying Thoughtseize is no good versus Plague isn't entirely accurate. It will hit a Plague that's in your opponent's hand, period. It sucks if it's on the board, and it sucks if they topdeck it, but such is the nature of discard. At least if it's already on the board, Seize will hit whatever's coming next that gives your sickly goblins a chance to still fight through it. Thoughtseize will hit Plague if it's in their hand, and if it isn't? You'll probably get a nice Tombstalker, Goyf, or pesky LD spell instead.

If you're overly concerned about Plague, then add a Wort, Boggart Auntie in the Tinkerer slot, and move the Tinkerer to board in place of Needle/Relic #4. (Or have the Wort in board and the Tink main, whichever) Wort's pretty solid against Plague, letting you sometimes win against a black-based aggro deck by virtue of it being too big for Plague, their removal being unable to hit it because it's black, and recurring Weirding to keep the board clear.

We have the child of Goblin King and Goblin Warchief:

Goblin Chieftain 1RR
Creature — Goblin R
Haste
Other Goblin creatures you control get +1/+1 and have haste.
“We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war.”
2/2
Sam Wood

Any thoughts on this? Is it worth maindeck slots? Does it count as Goblin Warchief 5-8? Although no cost reduction is HUGE. How would you compare this to Warchief, King, Mad Auntie, Boartusk Liege and the like? Discuss.

Huh? Where did you get that from? Looks pretty insane if that is true on first sight tho.

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Originally Posted by no_chi

We have the child of Goblin King and Goblin Warchief:

Goblin Chieftain 1RR
Creature — Goblin R
Haste
Other Goblin creatures you control get +1/+1 and have haste.
“We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war.”
2/2
Sam Wood

Any thoughts on this? Is it worth maindeck slots? Does it count as Goblin Warchief 5-8? Although no cost reduction is HUGE. How would you compare this to Warchief, King, Mad Auntie, Boartusk Liege and the like? Discuss.

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I'm impressed. Just yesterday I was thinking, so wtf with goblins being the only tribe with off color Lord effects?

Haste is quite good as an ability, but the 3cc slot is a bit clogged. It might work as Warchief 5-6 in monored, but he doesn't have haste on its own, and doesn't reduce our costy spells.
The +1/+1 is nice, but it's not huge in this format:
- Our goblins aren't going to kill dudes being 3/3s. The only relevant cards with 3 thoughness are Mongoose, Nacatl and Ape.
- Our goblins aren't going to survive Pyroclasm anyway.
- There will still be 4 warchiefs and 4 ringleaders in the deck, so haste might be kinda redundant.

That said, this guy might be worth as a maindeck solution to E.Plague, to free some SB spaces. Liege is A LOT better in this role though.