Well, good and bad. Timur is in top 8 with shardless BUG, make that top 4?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
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Well, good and bad. Timur is in top 8 with shardless BUG, make that top 4?Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Even with Thrun and the Garruk I still think that the list does not have enough finishers and/or value cards. It will be very hard for you to beat UW Jace decks, Shardless and often even Jund. You just lose to these decks if all you do is trade 1 for 1. You need to get some sort of engine going to keep up with the card advantage they produce.Quote:
Originally Posted by SevenInTheQueue
If you want to continue the Burning Wish without Valkut approach I think this has to be fixed. I think that Punishing Fire and Burning Wish are not mutually exclusive and more Planeswalkers could be an option, too.
For the "big game ending sorcery", there is nothing except Scapeshift so you'd have to get creative. Maybe a Natural Order with a 1-off Terastodon could work.
Since he's in red already adding a Kessig Wolf Run might be a possibility. He already runs Primeval to fetch it. And Wolf Running a Thrun is pretty good methinks.
I tried the "Wish for NO for dude" plan in Scapewish about a year or so ago, and it was absolutely atrocious. I don't think that much has changed, and I can't imagine it's any better now than it was then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
Left my notes at home accidentally because I'm running on 4 hours of sleep -- I'll pick them up over lunch and then write my summary this afternoon.
Also, sidenote: via that top 64, I will now have 14 SCG points, which means that all I need to do is show up to another SCG Open and I'm automatically Q'd for the Invitational in Indy in October.
The fox is about to be let loose in the henhouse.
"How many Shardless BUG decks is that %? OKAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY"
Why don't people run grave titan anymore? That should ruin basically anyone's day still
It's still in Arianrhod's Archangel list is it not? since I copied that list I run it... because I'm lazy.
During testin it's awesome most of the time... sometimes it's kinda meh.
It is for the moment, but I'm probably cutting it. I can't come up with a good reason to run any non-Primeval/non-Sun Titan 6-drop. Angel of Despair is fine out of the board as a hate option for Show and Tell, kind of, but meh. Sigarda wins games much more often than Grave Titan does -- as does Thragtusk (especially if you can get Recurring Thrags). He's still "okay," but he just isn't worth the slot anymore IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by XdeckX
Kevin, I'm looking forward to ripping all these Shardless decks a new asshole in Indy with you! Get Q'd!
Also, Qweerios, while I don't personally like the look of your new version, I do think Kessin Wolf Run is worth a slot in there. That one card dramatically increases your threat density and gives you a mana sink that it looks like you need.
Oh, you're Q'd as well? Excellent. I'm actually locked at 14 points -- barring an act of god I'm going to be in Philly on the 7-8th, so at absolute worst case I'll get my final point there.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneyT
We'll definitely need to swap notes on the standard portion. I haven't really started brewing for post-rotation at all (I'm on Jedi atm just for like derpFNM and such) -- waiting for Theros spoilers to see what I've got to work with. My two starting points at the moment are that I either want to do something with Plasm Capture, because I feel that card is grossly underrated, or a junk deck with Shadowborn Demon + Unflinching Courage (and then Xathrid Necro and Voice to feed the demon. maybe some Thunes while we're at it).
Yeah I never got a chance to use my invite from my KC T8. So I'm using it in Indy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I haven't been playing standard at all lately so I'm also waiting for spoilers before I start brewing heavily. We'll for sure have to meet up and compare notes. I do love me some Shadowborn Demon.
Alright, so Baltimore. Got up at 5:30am, went and picked up the +2, and we're underway. The trip down was pretty uneventful. The day before, I'd worked out my list after scrubbing out of a vintage event after unlocking the achievement of not keeping an opening 7 the entire day. I decided that I wanted to make a few changes:
Maindeck:
-1 Colossus
-1 Scapeshift (back to 2 main)
+2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
Sideboard:
-1 Red Elemental Blast
-1 Slaughter Games
+2 Rakdos's Return
These changes are a little questionable, so let me give some perspective.
Going into the event, I was expecting a heavy Shardless, Jund, Storm metagame, with compliments of Elves, Show and Tell, Miracles, Stoneblade, Deathblade, and a variety of other assorted fair decks. With that in mind, I decided to pull the trigger on Colossus. Colossus was excellent when the metagame was more based around black removal, and when Liliana of the Veil was less prevalent. Now that the meta has shifted to be once again more Liliana/StP-centric, Colossus isn't as good. 1 maindeck slot is generally useless unless I'm adding a Green Sun bullet, so I opted to play around with the traditional second flex spot in the list as well, by trimming back down to 2 maindeck Scapeshifts. More on my thoughts on this in the summary at the end.
As for the sideboard, Red Elemental Blast's stock is way down right now. I actually considered not running any copies, but I decided that I wanted to have at least 2 to board in the event of running into an errant Show and Tell deck. Yes, you -can- board it in vs Shardless, Miracles, Stoneblade, and so on, but you're usually better off not even bothering. To make room for REB, you often need to cut cards that are inherent 2-for-1s, and you don't want to be trying to 1-for-1 any of those decks, because they win that fight. REB is also almost useless against Storm. It can hit cantrips, sure, but that isn't usually good enough. Since I knew I wanted to be boarding some kind of alternative combo hate, I made the decision to trim one Slaughter Games. High Tide is awful right now (although the masters are still doing well with it, obviously), Show and Tell decks are all mono-Leyline of Sanctity, and 2 copies is usually enough to deal with annoyances like RIP/Helm, Natural Order, and other such cards.
Now, what to put in? I decided that the best option would be some kind of massive hand destruction. While this still has the problem of Leyline of Sanctity, I'm more okay with accepting Show and Tell as a loss, and I still have the BW->Reverent Silence plan. Since we don't have access to Mind Twist, Rakdos's Return is about as good as we're gonna get. It can off planeswalkers while Twisting your opponent. I had some minor qualms about experimenting with it because I was concerned that I wouldn't be able to get up the mana for a big Return early enough for it to matter, but, again, more on my thoughts on Return at the end.
IIRC, there were ~280-290 players, so, not too bad. Nothing earthshattering, but a good turnout.
Round 1: Chris Van Meter - Tezzereter
I obviously recognize the name as soon as I see it on the pairings board. The only question running through my head as I go to my seat is whether CVM is back on Tezz, or if he's on Deathblade, or if he's on OmniTell or MUD. In the first event, we're going to have a match. In the second, I auto-win. In the third, he auto-wins. We exchange some pleasantries, and he leads off t1 City of Traitors -> Chalice@1.
This doesn't fully answer my question, but my gut is telling me that he's on Tezz. My opening-hand Explorer is locked out, but that's fine. He confirms Tezz on t2, as he makes a turn 2 Jace and fateseals himself. At this point all he'd seen out of me was a basic mountain, so I'm assuming that he was concerned for the health of his Jace and wanted to bulk him up a bit. We go back and forth a bit, I do some ramp, he makes a Tezzeret and does some digging, Brainstorms with Jace some, etc. I attempt to play Deed on t4-t5, which gets immediately met with a Force pitching Force. Considering that his board was 1 land, some mana rocks, and two planeswalkers, I don't blame him. Unfortunately for him, this leaves him wide open. I Wish for Pulse, Pulse the Chalice, play Explorer, flashback a Therapy on him (which I'd played into the Chalice earlier), and he feels the fury of the mountains.
Game 2 I mull to 5 and he lands a t2 Lodestone Golem followed by a rapid Thopter/Sword assembly. I die summarily without doing much of anything.
Game 3 I mull to 6 and keep the following hand: Explorer, Explorer, Therapy, Deed, Wish, Forest. I should note that my decision to keep this hand was guided by that he boarded out 4 cards between g2 and g3, which I strongly suspected were Chalice of the Voids (since Chalice@1 doesn't do as much when on the draw, and CVM obv. knows this). If I hit a black source, this hand goes stupidly crazy -- he loses his hand, I land a Deed, have a pile of lands, and can threaten Scapeshift.
Naturally, I don't draw a black source. Or any other land, for that matter, except for a solitary Valakut. I eventually go on the Wish -> Pyroclasm plan, but Pyroclasm gets met with a Force. I get him down to 7 with just Veteran Explorer beatdown, though, which was amusing to me.
I made two mistakes this round. The first was that I didn't mull to 5 in g3. I certainly didn't want to mull to 5 again, and the lure of that 6er is very strong, but I'm pretty sure it was a mistake not to pitch it. The second was that on the last turn of my life, I didn't poke his Tezzeret with my Explorers, knocking him off of the ability to fire off a lethal ultimate. It wouldn't have mattered, as I looked post-game and my nearest land was like 5 cards down, and I would've been dead by then.
CVM expressed after the game that he felt I made a third mistake, too, which is that instead of playing the Valakut, I should've held it in my hand and opted to discard the Therapy the next turn. I'm less sure about this -- there are any number of things that I could draw that having the 2nd land would matter for, but I dunno. It may well have been a better line -- although the best line would have been not being in the position in the first place.
I'm pretty annoyed after this round, both because I screwed up twice (potentially three times), against a positive (though challenging) matchup, and after having mulled to 5 once...and should have been twice. Normally this wouldn't bother me quite so bad, but I'd just come off of a day of mulliganing, and I was annoyed by that.
Round 2: Mike with R/W Goblins
I don't have a ton of notes from this, but poor Mike didn't really have much that he could say about me. I let him overcommit g1 and Pyro'd him, then untapped and Scapeshifted. Game two I mulled to 6, and he got me to a whopping 16 before I Scaped him from 20.
Round 3: Tommy with RUG Delver
God writing this is painful (though not as painful as something coming later).
So I start off with an auspicious mull to 4. My 4 is double dual, Top, and Huntmaster. I lead with Top (obviously). He leads off with a Trop+Delver. I spin my Top and don't find anything exciting. His Delver flips off a Daze, and he Wastes me. Two more Dazes, a Force, and another Wasteland later, a Goyf joins the Delver and finishes me off.
Game 2 I mull to 6, and my deck works considerably better. My notes show me dropping to 5, and then him dying at 17. His only pressure for most of the game was a Mongoose, but he had 3 Stifles and a wall of countermagic. That won't stop me by itself though.
Game 3 I mull to 5 (...), and after a lot of back and forth manage to stick a Deed and kill his board, stabilizing at 2 life. Thragtusk is the next card down (via Top). He topdecks a Bolt.
Round 4: Matt with Burn
Arid Mesa -> Mountain -> Suspend Rift Bolt, huh. Sure. I do the thing that I do, he fires off a volley of burn spells, I play some Huntmasters. I win the game at 1 life after he draws a land. /heartpounding
Game two he keeps a 2-lander with Goblin Guide into triple Chain Lightning into double Price. Unfortunately, I had a slower hand that was looking to build into a Thrag, so that's sufficiently effective. WTB Therapy.
Game three I mull to five (SERIOUSLY). I equalize the mulligan, though, by Rakdos Returning him for 3, wiping out his hand and putting him in topdeck mode. He has a pair of Grim Lavamancers, but I have a Deed in my hand. He gets me to 3 before dying to angry mountains.
So sick of mulling to 5. But wait -- we're not done yet!
Round 5: Andrew with Affinity (who top 16'ing, incidentally)
This is quite possibly the most miserable loss ever. I didn't know what Andrew was on, but I knew that I had skin in the game because he had beaten my friend Nick Patnode earlier in the day. He leads off game one with a couple of Memnites and a Signal Pest. A turn or two later there's a Pernicious Deed, and he's crestfallen to learn that it also kills his artifact lands. GG.
Game two I mull to 5. He has double Cranial Plating. You can guess what happens. Of painful note: I ALMOST kept my 7, which was 6 lands + Burning Wish. While it wouldn't have been fast enough on its own, I looked at the top card as I was mulling and saw it was Veteran Explorer, which would've been sped me up to the point where I could've landed a devastating Pyroclasm and been fine. Still a good mull decision IMO, but it's always shitty that it would've worked out alright.
Game three I mull to 5. I wish I was kidding. I also punt REALLY bad here, as I don't Wish for Pyro because I want him to overcommit, which he won't do if he knows that the Pyro is coming. He then proceeds to draw and slam down Ethersworn Canonist of all fucking things, and kills me 1 turn later via a Cranial Plating.
Oh, and except for that first one in game one, I never saw another Deed this match. qq.
I'm still in contention for top 64 -- not really what I wanted, nor where I feel that I should be on the day given my matchups, but meh. I'm in a pretty dark place mentally at this point. I totalled up my mulligans to this point:
hands I've kept of:
7: 6
6: 4 (should've been 3)
5: 4 (should've been 5)
4: 1
Out of 14 games, I mulled 9 of them, and almost half of my games were mulls to 5 or lower.
Round 6: Tim with Jund
Tim's a friend of mine that I've played at a couple of these now -- he's a really friendly Irish guy, and we get along great and always have good games. To be honest, I think that Tim's the reason that I actually ended up top 64ing on the day -- our match really lifted my spirits and let me actually have fun for the first time all day.
Game one he double-Wastes me, but I have a Veteran out that he's unwilling to attack into. Coupled with Top, I'm able to keep making land drops, and although he has a Bob going most of the game, he doesn't hit a Liliana until it's too late, and the mountains go wild.
Game two I actually land Garruk, Primal Hunter after having been boarding him out all day due to the wrong matchups for him. Garruk single-handedly locks the game down. I don't think I needed to do anything else (although I did) -- I could've just let Garruk literally win the game by himself.
Oh, and you know what's even sweeter? I didn't fucking mull this match. Maybe my deck is pulling its head out of its ass finally.
Round 7: Chris with Shardless BUG
My opponent leads off with a Delta->Sea and I panic. Then next turn he plays a Bayou and I just smile viciously.
OM NOM NOM
He draws a bunch of irrelevant cards, is forced to Force a Deed, and then dies to mountains.
Game two was a weird one where I actually just straight up killed him with Primeval Titan. These games used to be more common (the old standard Valakut interaction of fetching mountains with Titan on swing), but somewhere along the way Titan stopped killing people as often. Anyway, he dies summarily without even dealing me one point of damage.
I like Shardless. More people should play it =D
Round 8: Arturo with Meathooks
As Arturo sits down and unfolds his playmat, I notice that he's got a couple of top 8 pins on his mat, including two SCG pins and a couple of PTQs. I mentally put him on Shardless or Blade and settle in for another bye.
So when he leads off Flooded Strand, fetch Tropical Island, play Aether Vial, I'm completely confused. Now, I've played a Cabal Therapy deck for 2.5 years now, religiously. I'm a student of the format and I've played almost everything there is to play at my local at various points. When I don't recognize an opening, something really weird is going on.
I just drop my Explorer and pass back, although I have a Therapy in my hand -- I don't want to fire it off until I see what he Vials in, because that might give me some guidance. My gut was thinking that he was U/W Tempo splashing green for something, but I wanted to be sure.
On his turn, he plays Cavern naming Sliver, drops Crystalline, and Vials in Galerider.
Okayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.
Well I end up doing some ramp things. I call Predatory Sliver on the Therapy and brick, seeing a hand of Sinew, Vial, and Standstill. I flashback for the Standstill, and pass back. He vials in the Sinew and punches me for 5. I do more rampy things. He draws a Predatory and vials it in before damage, putting me to 5. I don't find a Deed with my Top, and my in-hand Wish does nothing useful. I look mournfully at my board of Wood Elves and Huntmasters that can't chump block because of Galerider, and scoop 'em up.
Game two I lead off with a Vet. He drops a Wasteland and a Vial. I go with a Therapy on Galerider, because I am not putting up with that shit again. He has double Crystal, Phantasmal Image, Sinew, and a Waste. I'm forgetting something of the sequencing here, because he ends up Vialing in a Crystalline and Imaging it before I flashback the Therapy. Maybe I led with Therapy and then had to Zenith the Explorer. That would make sense. Anyway, I take the Sinew on flashback, and then play another Therapy for his 2nd Crystalline. He draws triple Wasteland, but can't do much. I Rakdos him for 3, emptying his hand (hitting a Force, but no blue card). Mountains take over.
Game three he doesn't have a Vial, and I rip his hand to shreds with double Therapy + Explorer, curving into a Rakdos for 2 to empty him out, and then the mountains go super saiyan.
Round 9: Aaren with Reanimator
One last round. If I win, I get top 64 for $50 and two points, and some shred of my dignity back from my abysmal start of the day (you'll notice that I haven't been mulling anymore). Naturally I get paired up against someone that I recognize as having played one of my friends earlier in the day with Reanimator. Fucking wonderful.
He leads with a Flooded Strand and passes. I Cabal Therapy him on my turn, hoping that he's cocky and lets it resolve since Reanimator doesn't typically play Flooded Strands. Instead of Force of Wills my Therapy, Entombs Griseldaddy, and untaps into a Reanimate. Welp.
Game two he has a double Careful Study + dudes hand, and can't find a reanimation spell. I Burning Wish -> Reanimate targeting his Griselbrand. BAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH
Unfortunately, he has a Angel of Despair in his graveyard, and he rips an Animate Dead to ruin my fun. I opt not to draw cards, and untap into a Huntmaster. He ships it back when he realizes that even with me at 14, he loses the race to Huntmaster. We have this kind of awkward draw/land/go phase for a while, until I have enough lands in play to Rakdos him for all of the things. He discards two more creatures and a land. I then Slaughter Games his Reanimates, leaving him with exactly 1 Griselbrand + Show and Tell, 1 Animate Dead, and 1 Exhume left in deck as outs. He doesn't get there before I draw more Huntmasters and swarm him down.
Game three I'm now terrified because he's on the play and ahhhhhhhhhhh. Luckily the shoe is FINALLY on the other foot for once, and he mulls to 5. My opening hand contains Explorer, Bayou, Tower, and both Rakdos Returns. He has some cantrips but no business. I Tower it up and attempt to Return for 3 on turn two, which get Forces pitching Force. I grin savagely, and proceed to Rakdos him for 4 the next turn, which puts him on empty. I then Scapeshift the next turn, and that's all she wrote.
TAKE THAT, FUCKING REANIMATOR.
----------------------------------------------------
So, yeah. Thoughts'n'stuff.
Primal Hunter was ass. Admittedly, I only played against two matchups where I actually wanted him / didn't board him out (Jund and Shardless). I don't even need him vs Shardless. Still, though, he just never felt that great to me, and half the time when I drew him I just wanted something else. Anything else.
Rakdos's Return was the nut high. My concerns about it not being powerful enough were abated, because by the time you have 3RB mana, they'll conveniently have 3 cards left in hand. Funny how that works. The direct damage is never really dead, it's a hell of a way to undo an Ancestral Vision, it can off planeswalkers, and if combo has a slow hand, it's absolutely backbreaking for them. It also have nice synergy with Huntmaster (lol, thanks standard) because sometimes you empty and they just draw a land, which lets you flip Huntmaster on their turn, then back on yours, and so on.
I never missed Chameleon once on the day. I did kind of sort of miss the 3rd Scapeshift, but at the same time, I didn't really seem to need it. I mostly wanted it around to push the kill through a Force of Will when I didn't have a Therapy, and Rakdos's Return serves that function just as well.
I only boarded in the REBs once (against Reanimator, for Show and Tell). I also only boarded in the Slaughter Games against Tezz and Reanimator, and generally found one when I wanted to.
Thoughts for going forward:
I'm going to test putting the 2 Rakdos's Returns maindeck. I didn't board them in every round or anything, but I think that if they were maindeck, I would probably not board them out much, either. The fact that it's online vs both fair decks and combo decks is astonishingly relevant.
I'm also going to test dropping the REBs entirely, and use the 2 REBs slots + the 2 open slots for more dedicated combo hate. I haven't figured out what this will be yet - might be additional discard, or like discard + surgicals, or something. But I'm pretty sure that Scapewish is well-enough positioned against the blue decks right now that REB is actually just a crutch. If you're in a high OmniTell meta then it's a different story, but for your average event, I don't think that they're even worth bothering with right now.
I'm planning on going with a couple of friends that have queued by top 8'ing or winning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I need 6 more points by then to Q. I got Milwaukee 2 weeks before and a couple of local IQ's (lousy standard).
That was a friend of mine, Zach Schulz. He started out strong and got asked about a deck tech but most of his rounds went to time. I'll try and get him to post his experiences, but he mostly just lurks. His list was roughly based on Tao's he mentioned and then he customized it for cards he really liked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Hope you guys get Q'd, trying to meet as many people as possible at Indy!
@Tao
You think a PF shell w/ Burning Wish for value is a possibility? Where would you make room for both 4x Punishing Fire and 3x-4x Burning Wish, while still keeping a high threat count?
I qualified for an invitational back in March, but I'm looking to go to the Vegas one in December. Anybody planning on heading there?
PS: Anybody have a good (updated) ScapeWish list I could test out?
Edit: Just threw together this as a list
Creatures (13):
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Eternal Witness
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Huntmaster of the Fels
2x Thragtusk
1x Primeval Titan
Instants/Sorceries (17):
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Burning Wish
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Punishing Fire
Artifacts/Planeswalkers/Enchantments (7):
3x Pernicious Deed
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
1x Garruk Relentless / Liliana of the Veil
Lands (23):
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
3x Bayou
1x Taiga
1x Badlands
1x Bloodstained Mire
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Volrath's Stronghold / Kessig Wolf Run
3x Forest
2x Swamp
1x Mountain
@Tao,
Tsunami is pretty much a "big game-ending sorcery" against Miracle. Slaughter Games can also be one give the right matchup. Sweepers are generally game-ending as well for a lot of decks. I don't think you have to avoid interaction with Nic Fit to close a game. In the end, you always have Thrun to lean on while you keep the board clean.
@Qweerios: The list you posted didn't even have a Thrun.
@SevenInTheQueue:
- Not sure if it would be too much with Fire and Wish. Haven't tested it, just theorycrafting. The list looks like a pretty solid start. But I'd play 4 Burning Wish. If you dedicate 8 SB slots to it, it better be good enough to be a 4-off. Also a 3rd Top. Maybe cut the Ooze and a Decay.
- Look at Arian's last post for good updated Scapewish list. He just top64'ed an SCG with it this sunday.
@Wish target:
- Life from the Loam: I think this should be played. Early on it gives you land drops and shuffle effects for the rest of the game, later it gets you back Value lands that they sniped with Wasteland.
@possible Sorcery Win Conditions. I know these are not the best, just random ideas:
- Rude Awakening: could be some sort of bad proxy for Scapeshift.
- Primal Command: Quite flexible. The life gain would be something other cards can't do.
Another less mana intensive option I always want to run in scapewish but it just isnt as good as scapeshift is Haunting Echoes. Its really a finisher for combo and control. Doesn't do a lot if your in a bad board position.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
If I was playing a non-scapeshift burning wish list Id run this for my wish board:
1 Thoughtseize
1 Tsunami
1 Haunting Echos/Rude Awakening
1 Maelstrom pulse
1 Pyroclasm
1 Damnation/perish/virtue's ruin
1 Reanimate
1 Slaughter Games
1 Innocent Blood
6 Non-wish cards
I'd be interested in that guy's Deadeye BUG Pod list if someone has it.
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
Working on itQuote:
Originally Posted by Tao
EDIT: next post
I'm the one who played the BUG Pod list in Baltimore. Started 4-0 beating 2 Shardless BUG, 1 MUD, 1 Deathblade, then the wheels fell off, so to speak. Lost to Miracles, 2 ANT, 1 UWR Delver. Here's the list:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
MAIN:
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
2 Coiling Oracle
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Thragtusk
1 Acidic Slime
1 Shriekmaw
1 Grave Titan
1 Deadeye Navigator
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Birthing Pod
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
SIDEBOARD:
4 Force of Will
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Golgari Charm
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Baleful Strix
1 Pernicious Deed
I will be the first to admit the deck is somewhat loose, and the sideboard is sort of thrown together. I also know I broke a cardinal rule in cutting GSZ, but i wanted to try something different. Since I have sweet blue and black creatures i want to get, and because Birthing Pod is my favorite card, I wanted to try that. Deadeye Navigator is almost always a win-more card, but it did win me a game against Deathblade when I paired it with a Strix. Usually you just get Grave Titan and call it a day (this is how I most commonly won my games). Both of my ANT matches went to 3 games, Glen Elendra was nearly unbeatable for them if when I could get it in play in time.
Highlights:
-Beating Josh Cho with Volrath's Stronghold recursion
-Beating Ali Aintrazi's MUD when he had Chalices on both 1 and 3 (Podding up the Chain...)
-Sliming a Jitte that was preventing my Grave Titan from attacking
-Podding a Thragtusk beast token into Veteran Explorer before Deeding
Some Cons:
-Deck mulligans and general consistency (I mulliganed a lot and it definitely cost me one match). Brainstorm and cantrip creatures help with this somewhat, but not having GSZ obviously is a factor.
-Combo matchup is not great game 1. Therapy, Clique, Glen Elendra, and Venser can help in this endeavor.
-Playing Pod means you have a lot of strange one-offs that are insane in certain situations and can be complete bricks in others. Also requires you to have a creature you want to sacrifice.
The deck was a lot of fun to play. I don't know that I would necessarily recommend it as a viable option, and certainly it could use some tweaking.
Thanks, Zach! I guess I'll share too.
Went 3:3 at SCG Baltimore and then dropped mid game in round 7 because my EDH pod was called, (won EDH with Arcum Dagsson shenanigans).
1 Garruk Relentless
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Baleful Strix
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Simic Sky Swallower
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
2 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Ponder
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Sideboard:
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Damnation
2 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Notion Thief
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Vendilion Clique
Wins:
Skyler with Pox
Best match of the day, every turn was a slug fest. Primeval Titan took game 1. Lost game 2 to absolute mana denial. Won game 3 with Thragtusk + Volrath's Stronghold.
All spells (can't find opponent's name)
Win game 1 due to opponent mulligan. Lose game 2. Win game 3 with Thoughtseize, Force of Will, and Scavenging Ooze
Todd A. with Reanimator
Game 1 lost to Tidespout Tyrant. Win games 2 and 3 with heavy discard.
Losses:
Zack M. with UWr Miracles
Lose game 1 to Entreat the Angels. Lose game 2 because I misplayed but was probably going to lose anyway to a Jace, the Mind Sculptor ultimate.
Travis B. with Omniclash
Game 1 I die very early, Omniscience --> Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Game 2 I mull to 6, have a hand with Thoughtseize, Thoughtseize, and Cabal Therapy. Opponent starts off with Leyline of Sanctity. :cry:
Scott H. with GU 12-Post
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
The list is really fun. The cantrips and Green Sun's Zenith made it consistent. Planeswalkers give you another way to win if your creatures can't stick.
I came to this event to fight 3-color good stuff (shardless/deathblade/etc.), tempo, aggro, and other mid-range. Through play testing I found that this list is favored against these strategies.
Final thoughts:
Simic Sky Swallower should be cut but I won't because it's too funny. I'll probably replace it with a Theros god card.
Primeval Titan + Creeping Tar Pit / Volrath's Stronghold = nuts
Notion Thief is awesome. I might cut one from the side for Thoughtseize or Envelop.
Carpet of Flowers should probably be in the sideboard. Veteran Explorer triggers are bad against Omniclash/Sneak Show and Miracles. If Nic Fit isn't ramping then it's not doing anything.
Welcome and thanks for contributing!
I've been experimenting with Pod quite a lot recently so I know your struggle. On the one hand Pod is basically unbeatable once it gets going, on the other hand it restricts the deck severely. GSZ has been going in and out for me too, the mana curve is tough to balance and finding the right ratio of spells to creatures isn't easy either. And you always walk the line of win-more. Building a dedicated Pod list is certainly challenging. I think you did a quite good job, I like your list, like you said it needs some tweaking. More tomorrow.
How do you feel about the viability of rector with these creatures enchantments of Theros?
EDIT: now that i have a little more time to dedicate to the post, let me make a decent one.
Hey guys, there has been a long time that i don't post, but i'm always reading the thread. Grats on the great work for this wonderful and fun to play deck that made me enjoy the legacy format. The above question is because white would be my favorite splash, but since rector was falling to a lower tier of the archetype, i went to Honey T's punishing build and been having tons of fun with it (great job). Could it be that Rector makes a return with Theros? And, Arianrhod, could you see it back on your thunian build (BTW gratz on the awesome build)? I would love to see a thunian and rector together. I know it still lacks lacks THE creature enchantment of the right color, but sure looks promising, doesn't it?
PS: I'd like to try a beginners shot on the scapeshiftless BW build brought by Qweerios. Abstractly, i think that is a brilliant approach. But I agree with everybody that said that would consider the punishing fire package. By my miserable experience (Legacy is not that popular in my city, and i just get to play against an incomplete Pox and StoneBlade, a Green 12 Post, an Affinity and some modern decks) with the PF build, what i always most miss is the versatility main board to maybe snatch some G1s from poor matchups, and feel like burning wish can just do that and, by that, increasing greatly the possibilities of victory against those decks. And you still have access to red awesome sideboard spells, like Qweerios stated. But i know how devastating the PF package can be and the value it brings against some matchups, so i wouldn't go without it. On the other hand, i admit the it would require to cut some of the MB discard, so it would be weaker against combo, and i guess that's not what Qweerios want.
So from the most recent list that Honey T posted, i would go -2 maelstrom pulse and - 1 punishing fire for + 4 burning wishes and 61 cards (which i think it wouldn't be a problem due the versatility of both BW and GSZ). I would love to find room for volrath's stronghold and a savannah for Tegg, as well as to a 1-off Thoughtseize MB, but i can't see how. As for the non wish sideboard, assuming 7 cards as the way to go, it could have 2-3 carpets/REB, 2-3 surgicals and 0-2 thoughseizes (bisides one to the wish) and 0-2 slaughter games, or something like that.
Of course, since i'm kind of a noob on the deck, i might just have said a lot of dumb stuff. So please tell me what you think so i can be closer to the mastery of the piloting and thinking of the deck and the legacy format. Thank you all in advance and for the great work you are doing, and forgive me if i have given wrong credit or have missed someone.
I tested Wish Fit today at a local tournament (around 15 players), and tied for first place. Here's a short report:
2-1 vs. Reanimator (double Deathrite did a lot of work)
SB: -4 Decay, -3 Deed, +2 REB, +2 Pyro, +2 Surgical, +1 TS
2-0 vs. Shardless BUGw (Wished for Innocent Blood)
SB: -3 TS, -1 Explorer, +2 REB, +2 Pyro
1-2 vs. UWr Miracles (Wished for Slaughter Games on Jace, Reverent Silence on CB/RiP, and Tsunami) - very close games overall, could have won if I found a Wish for Pulse/Deed/Thragtusk.
SB: -4 Explorer, -4 Therapy, +2 REB, +2 Pyro, +2 Surgical, +1 TS, +1 Teeg
2-0 vs. Zombardment (Wished for Massacre and Pyroclasm in G1, and Reverent Silence on Humility in G2)
-3 TS, +2 Surgical, +1 Innocent Blood
The deck ran very smoothly all night. It is also very convenient how the entire Burning Wish package was relevant. The only change I made to the original list was to replace Huntmaster with Thrun. Teeg is still in the sideboard and I do have 1 Savannah mainboard. The card I am most likely to cut for MD Teeg is the 4th Explorer. 2 Explorer is all you will ever need or be able to get value from during a game and drawing multiples can be really detrimental. Going down to 3 seems reasonable, but at the same time, it is an Explorer.dec...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
Oh god, it seems crazy to do so.
Hi,Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
I am new to this Forum. But I read regularly, especially in this Thread.
I would like to know, if all of those Wishtargets are necessary? Maybe you can go down to like 5-7 Wishtargets and get more cards to board in.
What do you think of the following Wishtargets as a core and then add some sideboard cards depending on the meta:
1x Haunting Echoe/somekind of finisher
1x Innocent Blood
1x Slaughter Games
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Thoughtseize
1x Pyroclasm
As a finisher maybe you can try Call the Skybreaker, although it produces tokens. Bad with deed and abrupt decays. Other cards not mentioned so far could be Green Sun's Zenith(good with the maindeck creatures) and Diabolic Revelation.
What do you guys think?
Thanks, Dennis
If you have questions about the Burning Wish list Qweerios is your man. I was also just giving random ideas. I have not much experience with BW in Nic Fit.
I was experimenting quite a lot with White Pod list recently. In the end I couldn't find a good enough list despite trying but if you like brewing there is definitely some potential, both in blue and in white. Rector for Deed and Primeval Bounty or Conclave's Blessing, and saccing Reveillark to Pod is pretty nuts. Sin Collector, Pridemage, Teeg and Orzhov Pontiff are good White SB cards. Murderous Redcap, Entomber Exarch, Stoneforge Mystic and Sea Gate Oracle are also cards worth looking into. Cutting GSZ in Pod lists is certainly a viable option to free slots. I am not saying that Pod isn't viable, it has a lot of power. I just couldn't get it to work (yet) but I wouldn't be surprised if someone showed up with a sick Pod list.
For the question if Bestow (Enchantment keyword from Theros) might make Rector viable again, that might be possible. The Archon isn't powerful enough but a similar card could be. You just have be dead sure to be able to kill Deathrite Shamans if you plan to play with more than one Rector, for example 4 Decay and 3 Deed should be the minimum. I'm really curious if Theros brings us some good stuff, powerful Legends and GSZ go well together. I'd love something good to get on 2 or 3 Mana.
Punishing Fire lists just gave me better win rates with their straightforward game plan compared to my Pod attempts. This is my current Fire list. It is well tested and I am happy with it, MD and SB. It plays enough disruption to win first games against all types of matchups and thanks to Fire-Grove and Thrun-Run has still enough gas. Liliana is sick in Fire lists. Good synergy with Fire, fixes the Tombstalker problem and is awesome against Combo and Control.
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Mountain
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Punishing Fire
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Huntmaster of the Fells
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Grave Titan
It seems Caleb had posted a BUG pod list we may be interested in.
http://tinyurl.com/pz4ndlx
What I like about his list is:
- 4 Strix
- less than 4 GSZ
- 3 DR Shaman (you want them in Pod lists)
What I don't like:
- the high amount of mediocre, underpowered 1-offs: Varolz, Finks, Redcap, Deceiver Exarch, Glen Elendra Archmage, Phantasmal Image, Shadowborn Demon, Shriekmaw, Dryad Arbor, Scavenging Ooze. They can be solid value creatures but there are just too many of them.
- I don't care who tells me why Brainstorm is bad in this deck. If you don't play Brainstorm in your blue Control deck with dozens of Shuffle effects and silver bullets, a need to find sac outlets for Explorer and to shuffle away your bad 1-offs and a need to find Pod you are doing something wrong, period.
- the way he approaches the Combo matchup. If you are telling yourself that Mindbreak Trap and Arcane Lab are good against Show and Tell decks you are lying to yourself.
This is freakishly similar to the list I've been working on the past several days. I was going to post it yesterday for discussion but something came up. It's only like 6 cards difference from Caleb's.Quote:
Originally Posted by jbone2016
About Caleb's deck:
He states that you want a critical mass of creatures, and he includes 24 (including dryad arbor...which seems terrible as one of your land slots -- and he's running 21 lands the way it is). This is also his justification for not playing brainstorm. However I've found that the card is just so powerful in Pod decks, letting you put away and shuffle your bricks, put away creatures you want to pod into, or finding your non-creature spells like Deed. Caleb doesn't include Deed at all in his list, and while you don't necessarily want to be deeding away your Deathrite Shamans, I have found the card to be so powerful that I don't think I want to play without it, especially since you very rarely blow it for more than 3, you never hit your own Pod or the creatures with which you're going to win the game. Also, brainstorm is crucial in helping you find your hate cards in games 2 and 3. You'll notice that my Pod list has 21 creatures (which i think is a critical mass...) and has made room for 4 brainstorms and 2 Jaces. It's just a matter of what you want to do with those extra slots.
All of this being said, I definitely want to try adding Deathrites. I will also say that there are times when you really wish you had a Deceiver Exarch to go from 2 to 4, particularly in situations where you need to get Glen Elendra online.
This. I like some of the silver bullets, but your deck doesn't need to be only silver bullet one ofs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
Brainstorm seems very powerful in a deck where a lot of the time you arent even casting the creature as much as you are podding into it or green sunning it in.
MBT is an awful awful card. Arcane lab is a little bit better, but MBT is BAD. Just play more Blue spells and play force in the board
I think that if I was going to go all-in on Pod like Caleb did, I would run maybe 1 Green Sun as a "5th" pod. Either way, you should only need 5 creature search options....maybe a Diabolic Intent if you can make room for it. But like 3 Zenith/2 Pod, 2/3, 4/1, or 1/4 should be your configuration, IMO.
Ordinarily I dislike Brainstorm in blue Nic Fit decks, but for a Pod based list, I agree that it's pretty important.
I read his article as him specifically trying to avoid lumping the deck in as another Nic Fit variant (even though it obviously is), which is one reason he chose not to run Deed. He said something to that effect about how "Nic Fit runs Deed, but we don't."
I've come to hate Grave Titan. Most of the time it just isn't good enough. I'd rather see that be a Consecrated Sphinx or a Frost Titan. Glen Elendra is a reason to run blue, and I could see an extra copy or two in the sideboard. Card is nuts.
I was shocked when Caleb said that Thragtusk has been underperforming for him. Just absolutely stunned. Thrag is consistently one of the best cards in my deck, regardless of which version I'm playing.
Yes, a lot of his decisions appear to be from theorycrafting rather than actual playtesting.
I think it is because he does not run deed or decay. So that 2 drop creature everyone plays is always going to have much greater game impact than a thragtusk since by the time thrag comes out goyf will probably be a 5/6 at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Quote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
I like the idea of pod decks. They look fun. But I think this is probably true. Pod decks look really good on paper, but in reality they force you to play a bunch of terrible cards with no spots open for enough removal, tutors (GSZ, wishes, etc) or cheap filter cards (top/BS). If you ever manage to survive to point in the game were you are going threw a pod chain, you probably already won and you could have just played Jace (a card that doesnt force you to run terrible cards) and won with his card advantage or -12.
I think we agree that the list is not the way to do it. Not being able to kill things like Revoker, Mindcensor or Jitte is a pretty big deal, it lacks a game plan against Show and Tell decks and it also can't ever beat Elves. Nothing against Caleb, but this article was a bit rushed I think.
For blue decks I have come to like Envelop more than FoW. FoW has been too incosistent because you don't always have the blue card and on top of it it often leaves you with very little after you pitched your good blue card for it and then the opponent can just draw himself out of it.
Envelop counters most things you want to FoW, too - Infernal Tutor and Burning Wish against TES, Natural Order and Glimpse against Elves and Show and Tell against Omnitell and SnT. I have not tested it against Shardless yet but it might be worth boarding it to counter Hymns and Visions.
Not hitting Ad Nauseum seems poor. I mean it might be that Envelop is good enough against everything else that it's okay to still lose to AdN, but I dunno. Why not just Negate? Seemed like Negate was doing everything we needed it to for the blue versions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
/barn or whatever re: Negate.
It counters everything relevant without needing another blue card. Counters enchantments too a la Dream Halls and Sneak Attack. It's just better than Envelop for what it's needed for.
My sig list has a 3/2 split between Envelop and Negate at the moment. Envelop can counter on your first turn and also the difference between keeping open one mana and two mana feels very important so you can spend more mana during your turn for discard and threats.