[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

Yeah I totally agree with that. It isn't very rare to open one landers with Ponder and no red spells though. Would you recommend moving back towards Silence if your meta is heavy in Miracles and AnT? I know that AnT is favorable for either build, but Silence helps push the matchup heavily into our favor. I hate being turn 1'd when I'm playing TES, and I'm also thinking about Bribery since two Reanimator decks have been showing up lately. Yes this meta is pretty miserable for storm, but you can't get better unless you learn to fight through the tough matchups right?

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This.

I haven't missed to run Silence until I played against Miracles. Playing top4 in a small local tourney, I discarted all counters the guy had in his hand, but couldn't combo him because he was hidding a fow and a blue card with his two Sensei's Divining Tops.

About the cabal ritual lastest issues, I only can say that I loved them, specially now that we're running an infernal tutor at sideboard. I feel that it would be better to run the full infernal playset at main, if we finally remove those rituals.

I think the Infernal is best kept in the side as I've used it a lot as a wish target. Not even necessarily for Ad Nauseam but for Empty too for the increased storm count. I sided out Cabal Ritual so often, I don't believe that I'll notice they're gone.

I updated the decklist in the opening post, no I didn't update the other content. It'll be done at some point.

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

Yeah I totally agree with that. It isn't very rare to open one landers with Ponder and no red spells though. Would you recommend moving back towards Silence if your meta is heavy in Miracles and AnT? I know that AnT is favorable for either build, but Silence helps push the matchup heavily into our favor. I hate being turn 1'd when I'm playing TES, and I'm also thinking about Bribery since two Reanimator decks have been showing up lately. Yes this meta is pretty miserable for storm, but you can't get better unless you learn to fight through the tough matchups right?

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I know about the issue of SDT + floated counterspell as a backbreaker and like a possible return of pure Tempo, a certain density of Miracles would make me consider to return to the Silences. ANT is a bit tricky as skilled pilots won't walk into Silence here with a hasted combo-attempt, but sling Discard until you are bleeded out of business/mana and drag out the game to the point where they can overwhelm you with the power of Cabal Ritual and a random discard-effect to strip Silence. Testing tough matchups gives you an idea about the Limits of the deck and yourself as a player. I like your motivation shown :)

Yeah they won't likely walk into Silence, but it can be hidden on top with a Ponder/Brainstorm waiting to be Brainstormed back up at an opportune time. Also, having Therapy and Silence makes the Goblin plan better against them, and even Silence walking is a nice option to have here as it protects your hand for a full turn which can often be enough time for us to get there. I actually made it known after our match that I wasn't playing Silence at the moment due to more experienced TES players foregoing white altogether. So it could be a very real possibility that I just get him with it, but I kinda hate the number of white sources that were in the older lists.

I'm not planning on bringing this to any larger events, at least for a while. I just don't have to confidence in the deck/my skill piloting it just yet. Also in tournaments with 7+ rounds I like having more flexibility in deck building/ card choices. We will see how I feel about it in two weeks as I have a nice sized tournament coming up. Thanks for your input Lemnear

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

Yeah they won't likely walk into Silence, but it can be hidden on top with a Ponder/Brainstorm waiting to be Brainstormed back up at an opportune time. Also, having Therapy and Silence makes the Goblin plan better against them, and even Silence walking is a nice option to have here as it protects your hand for a full turn which can often be enough time for us to get there. I actually made it known after our match that I wasn't playing Silence at the moment due to more experienced TES players foregoing white altogether. So it could be a very real possibility that I just get him with it, but I kinda hate the number of white sources that were in the older lists.

I'm not planning on bringing this to any larger events, at least for a while. I just don't have to confidence in the deck/my skill piloting it just yet. Also in tournaments with 7+ rounds I like having more flexibility in deck building/ card choices. We will see how I feel about it in two weeks as I have a nice sized tournament coming up. Thanks for your input Lemnear

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The whole "hide Silence on top and Brainstorm into it" is a bit artificial for my taste and could cause problems itself as you are possibly "wasting" your cantrips for this setup instead of using them to optimize your hand :/

During Bazaar of Moxen in November 2013, Silence-walking Goblins was more of a lackluster as you not only need white mana to do this (often requires another initial mana Source) but also can be responded to by casting Terminus, Golgari Charm or Zealous Persecution! The whole UBW stuff (Miracles, Deathblade) with counter+discard+hatebear was the reason I started to question Silence in the first place.

I'm looking forward to you sharing your experiences with us and participating in development :)

The updated list looks pretty close to what I've been running for a few weeks -Duress +Infernal Tutor in the MD. I really like slightly higher consistency on the G1 and then do end up typically siding out an Infernal for second and third games for more options vs consistency while giving a freebie side out for whatever hate/anti-hate/protection that I need to side in.

I was never a fan of the Cabal Ritual in this storm deck, but I really like where the deck is sitting right now. Feels like its at or near it's all time best (:
Thanks for all the hard work/suggestions/testing guys, you are incredible.

i really liked the new list, in a miracle heavy meta. (which, oddly enough, there are no miracles in my meta. lots mono blacks (pox/midrange))

considering my meta, the cabal rituals have been really awesome, and I am not moving them anytime soon of my 75. they make the past in flames even better, and put up a fight in the d&t MU .

I would like to test this new build against miracles, since i never actually won against this MU, but Ive been really glad with the Cabal ritual build. (although i miss the silences =X)

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Originally Posted by seilaquem

considering my meta, the cabal rituals have been really awesome, and I am not moving them anytime soon of my 75. they make the past in flames even better, and put up a fight in the d&t MU

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Geeeez... good luck trying to cast thre.shold Cabal Rituals against Thalia, Canonist, Wasteland and Port. I have the impression, I repeat myself every 2 pages about how to tackle the matchup

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Geeeez... good luck trying to cast thre.shold Cabal Rituals against Thalia, Canonist, Wasteland and Port. I have the impression, I repeat myself every 2 pages about how to tackle the matchup

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i know the best way is to go fast kill T2.

however, I've faced a lot T2 thalia through protection (discard, no thalia, draw thalia =/)

but the cabal rituals (after quite some time), helped me to AN even through thalias. they still are +2 sources w/ thalia in play.

or should I try to aggressively mull to 4? =/ (i´ve been really unlucky on the last couple of matches i played)

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

Yeah they won't likely walk into Silence, but it can be hidden on top with a Ponder/Brainstorm waiting to be Brainstormed back up at an opportune time. Also, having Therapy and Silence makes the Goblin plan better against them, and even Silence walking is a nice option to have here as it protects your hand for a full turn which can often be enough time for us to get there. I actually made it known after our match that I wasn't playing Silence at the moment due to more experienced TES players foregoing white altogether. So it could be a very real possibility that I just get him with it, but I kinda hate the number of white sources that were in the older lists.

I'm not planning on bringing this to any larger events, at least for a while. I just don't have to confidence in the deck/my skill piloting it just yet. Also in tournaments with 7+ rounds I like having more flexibility in deck building/ card choices. We will see how I feel about it in two weeks as I have a nice sized tournament coming up. Thanks for your input Lemnear

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I really dont think that for example 3 silence instead of 3 duress is better vs a miracles decks because of floating counter under senseis, discard has the benefit of beeing faster and the possibility of even discard the senseis or c.b. I've made multiples like discard, take out even FoW, next turn win having c.b. in hand or just take out c.b. and later kill with storm and multiple cards in hand. these kind of games is what you need on first games, because c.b. is a turn 2.

talking now about side, I see 3 A.D. as a mínimum if you want to battle a 2nd game OtDraw... because sometimes you will use A.D. to force the senseis and sometimes for c.b. and sometimes for m.mage, etc, having in conjunction with discard the perfect puzzle.

@Bryant:
how would you side vs miracles with your list?

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Originally Posted by seilaquem

i know the best way is to go fast kill T2.

however, I've faced a lot T2 thalia through protection (discard, no thalia, draw thalia =/)

but the cabal rituals (after quite some time), helped me to AN even through thalias. they still are +2 sources w/ thalia in play.

or should I try to aggressively mull to 4? =/ (i´ve been really unlucky on the last couple of matches i played)

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The Problem is getting Cabal Rituals initial mana through all the denial which is the near impossible task; not to talk about stuff like Canonist or the like in addition to the manadenial.

The best plan B, if you are unable to combo Turn 1/2 is, to Wish for Massacre and slowroll. Massacre is not affected by canonist and can be cast off a single U.Sea even with Thalia on the table and GETS RID of all hatebears instead of just netting 2 mana for an initial cost of 3.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

The Problem is getting Cabal Rituals initial mana through all the denial which is the near impossible task; not to talk about stuff like Canonist or the like in addition to the manadenial.

The best plan B, if you are unable to combo Turn 1/2 is, to Wish for Massacre and slowroll. Massacre is not affected by canonist and can be cast off a single U.Sea even with Thalia on the table and GETS RID of all hatebears instead of just netting 2 mana for an initial cost of 3.

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Speaking of Massacre, does everyone think we still need Grapeshot now that we have a better way to kill hatebears? I have yet to wish for Grapeshot except for the lolz of a 20 storm kill. I understand that it can be used to kill off a weakened opponent after they have dealt with our Goblins, or to tank out an annoying Liliana. I'm just not sure it's high impact enough at this point, but it could also just be my meta where I haven't seen a Teeg yet, which is a big pull in favor of the Grapeshot.

I'm under the impression that we are going down to 0 Chain of Vapor to play the new sorcery speed one, is everyone on board with this? I actually lost a game against Marit Lage when my opponent had only one Daze in hand and one land in play, while I had 4 mana and Burning Wish. It was kind disheartening knowing that the new card was about to come out.

EDIT- Since Bryant is going to be moving the Trop into the main, is it possible that testing out a single Decay in the main is a good idea? It might not be needed, but I've found losing game 1's to a Counterbalance or Thalia is pretty disastrous since we will have to face down more hate in the next 2 games. Just a thought that might be worth testing, and it frees up an extra board slot as an added bonus.

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Originally Posted by Niggurath

This.

I haven't missed to run Silence until I played against Miracles. Playing top4 in a small local tourney, I discarted all counters the guy had in his hand, but couldn't combo him because he was hidding a fow and a blue card with his two Sensei's Divining Tops.

About the cabal ritual lastest issues, I only can say that I loved them, specially now that we're running an infernal tutor at sideboard. I feel that it would be better to run the full infernal playset at main, if we finally remove those rituals.

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Just wanted to point out that if your opponent has two tops in play, he can't tap both of them to draw two cards. The ability on one has to be fully resolved first (returning Top to the deck) before the second Top can draw a card.

EDIT: Derp.

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

Speaking of Massacre, does everyone think we still need Grapeshot now that we have a better way to kill hatebears? I have yet to wish for Grapeshot except for the lolz of a 20 storm kill. I understand that it can be used to kill off a weakened opponent after they have dealt with our Goblins, or to tank out an annoying Liliana. I'm just not sure it's high impact enough at this point, but it could also just be my meta where I haven't seen a Teeg yet, which is a big pull in favor of the Grapeshot.

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I had a close game last week against UR Delver where I could only land 8 goblins on turn one through Daze/FoW. He removed two goblins and was sitting at 9 life behind two flipped Delvers. I barely had enough mana to Grapeshot both creatures and swing for lethal. Would not remove. (=

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Originally Posted by saur

Just wanted to point out that if your opponent has two tops in play, he can't tap both of them to draw two cards. The ability on one has to be fully resolved first (returning Top to the deck) before the second Top can draw a card.

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draw with one, spin, draw with the other

edit: mained decay sounds pretty lackluster as it dilutes actual combos and a miser decay would probably hurt as main opening hands/topdecks as it would help the relevant matchups where you happen to open it

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Originally Posted by saur

Just wanted to point out that if your opponent has two tops in play, he can't tap both of them to draw two cards. The ability on one has to be fully resolved first (returning Top to the deck) before the second Top can draw a card.

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Sure you can. You put the first tap draw on the stack, followed by a look activation, followed by another draw activation. So basically you draw a card and the first Top goes on top, then you rearrange the top 3 and then the other draw activation resolves.

EDIT-Ninja'd again :'(

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Originally Posted by HammafistRoob

Speaking of Massacre, does everyone think we still need Grapeshot now that we have a better way to kill hatebears? I have yet to wish for Grapeshot except for the lolz of a 20 storm kill. I understand that it can be used to kill off a weakened opponent after they have dealt with our Goblins, or to tank out an annoying Liliana. I'm just not sure it's high impact enough at this point, but it could also just be my meta where I haven't seen a Teeg yet, which is a big pull in favor of the Grapeshot.

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guess you listed the most important ones. I may add:
- not having an U.Sea in play and Massacre being too expensive to hardcast (also includes Magus of the Moon)
- having to remove creatures without your opponent having a Plains (for like buying you some time against double Delver starts)
- having to remove a 3-thoughness creature (Painter of servant)

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I'm under the impression that we are going down to 0 Chain of Vapor to play the new sorcery speed one, is everyone on board with this? I actually lost a game against Marit Lage when my opponent had only one Daze in hand and one land in play, while I had 4 mana and Burning Wish. It was kind disheartening knowing that the new card was about to come out.

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I can only hope people add this gem to their sideboard. No more surprising game 1 hate you cannot handle; no more speculative boarding of CoV.

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EDIT- Since Bryant is going to be moving the Trop into the main, is it possible that testing out a single Decay in the main is a good idea? It might not be needed, but I've found losing game 1's to a Counterbalance or Thalia is pretty disastrous since we will have to face down more hate in the next 2 games. Just a thought that might be worth testing, and it frees up an extra board slot as an added bonus.

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[I fear, the Miracles matchups aside, you'll curse yourself every time you draw it :/

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I have a lot of CB in my meta, and I tried going with main deck AD out of frustration. It is not good.

Made more edits to the opening post. A quick sideboard update, take it with a grain of salt. It's mostly similar, just swapping some stuff here and there.

The problem with Miracles is that if it's not one card that gets you then it's the other, between Force of Will, Counterspell, Vendilion Clique, Counterbalance, Sensei's Divining Top and hate bears you just have to Thoughtseize and force them to have the Sensei's Divining Top/counter lock, because as soon as you replace Thoughtseize with Silence you'll just start bitching about Vendilion Clique, Counterbalance and hate bears again and those cards are going to more consistently lock you out of the game than Sensei's Divining Top is. It's just that you "feel" as tho' you can actually do something about Vendilion Clique, Counterbalance and hate bears when you have answers in your deck to them and you can't do anything vs Sensei's Divining Top in comparison, but you're probably still just as dead if they do hit.

Edit: I'm still a bit surprised people are cutting Bribery and Diminishing Returns, are Reanimator and Jund not decks in your meta or what?

I really haven't liked the conditional SB cards like Abrupt Decay, the second Pyroblast and even Xantid Swarm lately, one of the cards I've been going back to is Inquisition of Kozilek as these days not hitting Force of Will seems like the least of our worries as far as disruption's short commings go.

After cutting Green, I've been thinking about heading towards just the fetch/dual manabase at this point of 2 Underground Sea, 2 Volcanic Island and X fetchlands, being able to protect the manabase from Wasteland and shuffle after Brainstorm is just a really solid boon for TES

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

The problem with Miracles is that if it's not one card that gets you then it's the other, between Force of Will, Counterspell, Vendilion Clique, Counterbalance, Sensei's Divining Top and hate bears you just have to Thoughtseize and force them to have the Sensei's Divining Top/counter lock, because as soon as you replace Thoughtseize with Silence you'll just start bitching about Vendilion Clique, Counterbalance and hate bears again and those cards are going to more consistently lock you out of the game than Sensei's Divining Top is. It's just that you "feel" as tho' you can actually do something about Vendilion Clique, Counterbalance and hate bears when you have answers in your deck to them and you can't do anything vs Sensei's Divining Top in comparison, but you're probably still just as dead if they do hit.

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With this being said: how off is it to think about Pithing Needle in the SB to block random Fetches, Grindstones, DRS, Sneak Attack, Griselbrand, Wasteland, SFM, Sensei's Divining Top, Engineered Explosives, etc.?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

With this being said: how off is it to think about Pithing Needle in the SB to block random Fetches, Grindstones, DRS, Sneak Attack, Griselbrand, Wasteland, SFM, Sensei's Divining Top, Engineered Explosives, etc.?

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how would you find sb space for a relevant number of copies? or would this be some sorta miser 1-of?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

With this being said: how off is it to think about Pithing Needle in the SB to block random Fetches, Grindstones, DRS, Sneak Attack, Griselbrand, Wasteland, SFM, Sensei's Divining Top, Engineered Explosives, etc.?

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Eh, that's really narrow, for the most part I've just learned to rely on discard to keep Counterbalance off the table and kill them before they have time to find a Force of Will with Sensei's Divining Top. I think when TES gets into the habbit of trying to answer the opponent's "threats" when that threat may not even be an actual problem you're generally just playing the deck too conservatively.

We're never going to make that match up a good one, I generally try to invest all of my energy in beating tempo decks where they don't have any 1 card that jut totally fucks us over. We have speed to deal with Top, ANT doesn't even have that - which really baffles me how the hell that deck consistently places higher.

Bryant on SCG stream against Reid Duke on UWR Miracles

Bryant leading 1-0 ^^ Gogogo!!

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Originally Posted by Elfkid

Bryant leading 1-0 ^^ Gogogo!!

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1st game was pretty brutal from Reid's side

G2 also pretty harsh

GG Bryant - keep stormin' on

Would like to watch if someone has the link and timestamp at hand

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Would like to watch if someone has the link and timestamp at hand

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http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/538117034

around 6:00:00

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Originally Posted by Sloshthedark

http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/538117034

around 6:00:00

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Thx a lot, pal. Will take a look when at home. Need to dig up Reid's list; maybe I find a reason for this quick loss there

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Thx a lot, pal. Will take a look when at home. Need to dig up Reid's list; maybe I find a reason for this quick loss there

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simply put manaflood and mana screw ...other than poor CS on BW, BS and a Top spin, nothing happens on Duke's side...

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Originally Posted by Sloshthedark

simply put manaflood and mana screw ...other than poor CS on BW, BS and a Top spin, nothing happens on Duke's side...

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Sounds like a lot of turns, mana and options to me :/

P.S. How I love to trade additional Wishes/Infernals in turn 2 for more discard.


Edit: watched it. Nothing too fancy. CS against Wish was bad, aside from that, no mistake from Reid here. Would have been a bit more interresting if the second land would not have been a Plains. Still, eot Decay would have dismembered that one as well.

If anyone wants a full +/- sideboarding guide (made with Bryant's great OP) message me!

Felt so good to watch Bryant crushing a Miracles deck.

He played ANT though. (Like hell, get the Storm decks right SCG plz http://imageshack.us/a/img443/4251/ixgr.png)

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Originally Posted by Zombie

He played ANT though. (Like hell, get the Storm decks right SCG plz http://imageshack.us/a/img443/4251/ixgr.png)

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I stopped caring about that as SCG's usual crowd are the netdeck-players. I just facepalmed myself as they talked about the number of Rituals and PIF without noticing that PIF isn't even in the Maindeck and that this MAYBE could be a hint at this deck not being build around that card and Ritual effects.

I just loaded it up. ANT? Looks at opening, sees Wish... Yea, something is wrong here.

Edit:
What was the card in the front of he sideboard?

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

I just loaded it up. ANT? Looks at opening, sees Wish... Yea, something is wrong here.

Edit:
What was the card in the front of he sideboard?

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Unhinged Foil as a divider. Dunno what he uses. I would pick Naughty/Nice for that ... for obvious reasons

@Bryant:
Related to the Miracles match up, I saw it
I'd like to ask how did you exactly side in 2nd match up?
Had you sided the same way in 3rd match up in the case you had lost?

Edit: I think also c.s to b.w. was bad in here.

it seems you left a 4 mana cost and low number of c.moxes, but I wonder if the c.b. landed how the game had developed... maybe 75% no FoW was on top at the point you would have played A.D on c.b..... what was the feeling about this?
I think like F.Fortue in here, the kind of games TES wins goes through the path that these 2 games demonstrated... however I need to disagree because 0% possibilitys of win had happened if plains had been island instead and no A.D. had been included...

I never really though on taking out full moxen for miracles match up, I think 1 as máximum was correct, as I conceived Miracles somehow as Reanimator or S&T matchup therefore quick is needed... but also reaching the late game vs miracles c.m. is a bad card, but again I find this contradition... I mean, if instead A.D., C.Mox for sure would have been better in that scenario in that 2nd game. agree?

if you sided like: -3C.M,-1EtW,-1Ponder,-1Duress = +3A.D, +2Pyro,+1T.Seize From opening list I think that I would have left maybe 2 C.M. instead of the 2 pyro, but seems that the truth is that c.moxen is bad vs a control match up andmiracles now it is because of existence of a.d., not only T.A. will profit from it! so even adding pyros seems the ritgh move, is this the reasoning?

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Eh, that's really narrow, for the most part I've just learned to rely on discard to keep Counterbalance off the table and kill them before they have time to find a Force of Will with Sensei's Divining Top. I think when TES gets into the habbit of trying to answer the opponent's "threats" when that threat may not even be an actual problem you're generally just playing the deck too conservatively.

We're never going to make that match up a good one, I generally try to invest all of my energy in beating tempo decks where they don't have any 1 card that jut totally fucks us over. We have speed to deal with Top, ANT doesn't even have that - which really baffles me how the hell that deck consistently places higher.

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I agree with this a lot. speed in the CB matchup is probably the best solution and pushing on discard is mostly ideal for this (discard on T1 kill on T2) ANT durdles turn 1 and 2 and then gets locked out. the .5 to full turn bump from TES is worth it.

CB+ top is basically a slidable/Scalable Chalice and killing them before its active is better IMO than trying to wait for one of the three decays you boarded in. Probably going to mess with three color for a while and see how it goes.

why not play ANT? too slow, better AN's in TES with access to PiF if needed for late game. Early PiF chains need a lot of set up and not to be fucked with via DRS. and Rite of flame number one is usually about as good as Cabal ritual number one (+1) and less dependent on it being turn three+

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Originally Posted by Pelikanudo

I never really though on taking out full moxen for miracles match up, I think 1 as máximum was correct, as I conceived Miracles somehow as Reanimator or S&T matchup therefore quick is needed... but also reaching the late game vs miracles c.m. is a bad card, but again I find this contradition... I mean, if instead A.D., C.Mox for sure would have been better in that scenario in that 2nd game. agree?

if you sided like: -3C.M,-1EtW,-1Ponder,-1Duress = +3A.D, +2Pyro,+1T.Seize From opening list I think that I would have left maybe 2 C.M. instead of the 2 pyro, but seems that the truth is that c.moxen is bad vs a control match up andmiracles now it is because of existence of a.d., not only T.A. will profit from it! so even adding pyros seems the ritgh move, is this the reasoning?

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I'm not sure why we discuss the boarding here if there is a whole section in the OP about that. What is the logic behind keeping 4 Infernals in the Maindeck but removing all Moxen so T1/2 Ad Nauseeams are not only less likely to happen but also less successful (while increasing the lifeloss and average manacosts you flip to AN?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I'm not sure why we discuss the boarding here if there is a whole section in the OP about that. What is the logic behind keeping 4 Infernals in the Maindeck but removing all Moxen so T1/2 Ad Nauseeams are not only less likely to happen but also less successful (while increasing the lifeloss and average manacosts you flip to AN?

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I take the OP as reference, so with this list - which has 3 I.T. base I just do not side 1 I.T. leaving only 2 in base I think it is nonsense also, In my list I play the 4th I.T. so for this case I will side out 1 single I.T.

Removing the 3 C.M. is what Bryant proposed from Opening. watching at the video game 2 what you say is what the 2nd game demonstrated, no C.M. was shown with A.N. and he was dependant on Petal for winning. but I believe that if for example no LED has shown from A.N. then the petal had been used to discard c.b. and pass the turn which is equally effective, but for sure not as effective as winning on this same turn...

As said,
a) Miracles is a Control matchup and the unique distinction is c.b.
b) if you play 3 A.D. as mínimum, then c.b. should not matter and the behaviour of the match up should be focused as a Control match up.
c) in a control match up, C.M. is the worst card as we'll reach the late game.

these seem the conclusions, but I'd like to ask Bryant about this. as said in my previous post, I'm not sure also about taking out full moxen against Miracles as I want to also be quick in this match up... for sure 3 A.D. will be included, but not sure about pyro. the logic seems that pyro > C.Mox in a large game vs control.

I've never took out the full moxen from the list... as much 1 C.M., it seems like a different aproach vs miracles. I somehow agree and disagree at the same time, but for sure this is something I'll try on next torunament... so that's why I'd like how he exactly sided... also I think the Reid List has no S.Pierce and yes pyro which is to a certain extent relevant... vs us, by here people plays pierce from 2 to 3 as Jund is a match up to have in mind and pyro just do nothing against them, some lists even play Ancestral Visions vs Jund...