[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

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Originally Posted by catmint

Is anyone else thinking about thoughtseize vs. hymn? It seems to be common understanding that hymn is the better choice.

My pros and cons:

Pros for Thoughtseize:
- Better versus combo & control making sure you get that peace that matters.
- You gain information about how to play best.
- Cheaper!! The early turns "doing many things at the same time" is where the deck wins most matches, so 1 mana makes a difference. Deahtrite into: Thoughtseize, Wasteland, Delver with Daze backup turn 2 feels better to me than Hymn, but saving waste or delver for the next turn.

Pros for Hymn:
- Think its better against those midra nge decks because of their redundancy.
- Hitting lands (to support sinkhole plan) and/or "the last 2 cards" is often a more powerful effect.

Problems I have with hymn is that I cannot cast it on a regular basis. Tropical island is often necessary to make sure you are not cut off from blue (ponders/brainstorms) making BB a liabilty.

If people would share their thoughts and actual testing results that would be very helfpul. Stuff like "I play it because I netdeck and was always happy": keep it to yourself. :tongue:

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While Hymn is the more powerful effect I feel that the mana curve of the deck is a bit overloaded at 2 mana. My initial sollution has been to begin to skim the 2 mana spells (Hymn, Decay) down to 3 each and include some cheaper spells (Thoughtseize, Dismember) able to fill the same role.

Also has anyone ever tried adding a few more cantrips(I was thinking going up to 10)? My feeling is that your best draws include 1-2 cantrips in the first 3 turns, whereas the worst draws tend to be those that lack any library manipulation. Drawing too many cantrips can be an issue in games where you are the beatdown but still seems better than not drawing any at all.

My meta is filled with sneak attack and affinity.

Is deed my only sb choice for affinity? How about sneak attack ?

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Originally Posted by kingsey

My meta is filled with sneak attack and affinity.

Is deed my only sb choice for affinity? How about sneak attack ?

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Engineered Explosives is another option but if you really want to annihilate affinity just play Null Rod. A pair of those in the sideboard would dramatically improve the match-up IMO.

I like a single Venser, Shaper Savant in the sideboard when Sneak and Tell is popular. You can Show and Tell it in, bounce Sneak attacks, Emrakul etc as well as a mix of Thoughtseize/Spell Pierce in the board.

Would you consider Energy Flux a valid SB alternative against affinity considering even their lands are artifacts?

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Originally Posted by bilb_o

Would you consider Energy Flux a valid SB alternative against affinity considering even their lands are artifacts?

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I've never seen an Affinity deck beat a resolved Energy Flux but the card is fairly narrow. I think Deed would be more versatile as you can bring it in for a variety of matchups.

How do you guys board against RUG Delver? It seems like it's a slightly favorable matchup, but I want to make sure I'm "doing it right".

I take out my Force of Wills. I add in Disfigure (since they're the beatdown in this matchup and it answers Delver and is a trump in Tarmogoyf standoffs) and Life from the Loam (obvious reasons). If they have Life from the Loam too, I'm tempted to bring in Tormod's Crypt, although this may be a bit loose.

Running Sinkhole seems tempting, but it's the worst card in the world against Daze. Spell Pierce seems okay, although not amazing here.

I'm a bit unsure on what to do with Hymn. On one hand, it's a great card and clears their hand of removal spells (Bolt, Submerge, etc.) and Stifles so you can safely land your threats. On the other hand, they're often in topdeck mode by the time you feel safe enough to play Hymn through Daze and Pierce (perhaps only to run into a Snare), which is a real bitch when you're trying to hit BB against a deck with Stifle and Wasteland as well as seemingly infinite ways to prevent Deathrite Shaman from untapping.

Given my sideboard, it's often a choice between shaving some Hymns or a few Delvers. Cutting the threats seems terrible in this deck, but on the other hand, it's the most fragile creature we have (gets hit by Lightning Bolt, Forked Bolt, Submerge, Dismember, and Pyroblast/REB) with the least impact on board state.

Last time I went with +2 Disfigure, +1 Life from the Loam, +1 Creeping Tar Pit (strictly as an extra mana source), +2 Spell Pierce (which I'm rethinking), -2 Force, -4 Hymn. After getting Loam-locked in Game 2, I dropped 2 more Forces for 2 Tormod's Crypt.

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

How do you guys board against RUG Delver? It seems like it's a slightly favorable matchup, but I want to make sure I'm "doing it right".

I take out my Force of Wills. I add in Disfigure (since they're the beatdown in this matchup and it answers Delver and is a trump in Tarmogoyf standoffs) and Life from the Loam (obvious reasons). If they have Life from the Loam too, I'm tempted to bring in Tormod's Crypt, although this may be a bit loose.

Running Sinkhole seems tempting, but it's the worst card in the world against Daze. Spell Pierce seems okay, although not amazing here.

I'm a bit unsure on what to do with Hymn. On one hand, it's a great card and clears their hand of removal spells (Bolt, Submerge, etc.) and Stifles so you can safely land your threats. On the other hand, they're often in topdeck mode by the time you feel safe enough to play Hymn through Daze and Pierce (perhaps only to run into a Snare), which is a real bitch when you're trying to hit BB against a deck with Stifle and Wasteland as well as seemingly infinite ways to prevent Deathrite Shaman from untapping.

Given my sideboard, it's often a choice between shaving some Hymns or a few Delvers. Cutting the threats seems terrible in this deck, but on the other hand, it's the most fragile creature we have (gets hit by Lightning Bolt, Forked Bolt, Submerge, Dismember, and Pyroblast/REB) with the least impact on board state.

Last time I went with +2 Disfigure, +1 Life from the Loam, +1 Creeping Tar Pit (strictly as an extra mana source), +2 Spell Pierce (which I'm rethinking), -2 Force, -4 Hymn. After getting Loam-locked in Game 2, I dropped 2 more Forces for 2 Tormod's Crypt.

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Depending on your list:
- 4 FoW, - X Daze
+ All SB removal & Submerge
+ 1 Life from the Loam

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Originally Posted by bondafong

Depending on your list:
- 4 FoW, - X Daze
+ All SB removal & Submerge
+ 1 Life from the Loam

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I actually disagree with cutting Daze, especially if you're on the play. They get choked on mana frequently, so Daze is very often going to be a hard counter. It's also nice when you can cast Goyf, Daze back your Tropical and be immune to Submerge, or save a land from being a Wasteland casualty. I think Hymn is going to be one of the first cards to consider cutting after FoW. Yeah, it's brutal if you can resolve it early on, but that's often difficult and later you're both likely to be getting into topdeck mode.

i'm going to try to play this deck and this is the sideboard im going to try:
2 golgari charm
2 jace, the mind sculptor
3 tormod's crypt
2 blue blast
1 dark blast
2 disfigure
2 krosan grip
1 life from the loam

what do you guys think?

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Originally Posted by wcm8

I actually disagree with cutting Daze, especially if you're on the play. They get choked on mana frequently, so Daze is very often going to be a hard counter. It's also nice when you can cast Goyf, Daze back your Tropical and be immune to Submerge, or save a land from being a Wasteland casualty. I think Hymn is going to be one of the first cards to consider cutting after FoW. Yeah, it's brutal if you can resolve it early on, but that's often difficult and later you're both likely to be getting into topdeck mode.

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You've outlined all of my reasons for keeping Daze in on both the play and draw.

There were a lot of decks I used to play where I'd cut Daze in sideboarded games on the draw. I almost never cut it when I'm play with RUG Delver or Team America though.

I would strongly consider cutting hymn before force against canadian, depending on blue count and sideboard strategy.

any thoughts on stifle in this deck?

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Originally Posted by Parcher

Stifle and Sinkhole end up being opposing philosophies in Tempo decks. RUG, which runs Bolt, Stifle, Spell Pierce, Spell Snare, Thought Scour, REB, etc. has no problem keeping mana open to use Stifle. BUG, which runs Hymn, Thoughtseize, Shaman, Sinkhole, Tombstalker, Tarpit, etc. in addition to the Ponder/Goyf/Delver that both run, ends up tapping out most of the time when the deck is working properly. Especially in the early turns, where Stifle is at it's most broadly useful. RUG can't run Sinkhole, so that's a non-issue. And the reasons for running BUG over RUG, while they might include Sinkhole, have nothing to do with Stifle's inclusion or exclusion. You can't really run the TA version as it's currently built, and have the needed open mana to access Stifle. And cutting something to add Stifle would change this iteration enough to be a different deck in how it sequences it's first three turns.

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I think Parcher sums it up pretty nicely.

Seems fair enough, I'm new to Team America and blue in general so I figured I'd ask.

What are some problem matchups for this deck?

There are no real super-horrible matchup since TA's early game is so strong that it can keep up with almost everything but currently I worry about the following:

Burn: classic bad matchup for BUG due to price of progress, thoughtseize, dismember,...

Miracles: current strategy is to attack manabases of midrange/control decks and the hand with discard which is very strong versus stoneblade, but SD.top's miracles is good against both and they play soo many basics making this plan not supported by wasteland and ineffective.

Jund: This matchup feels to me like I can be behind so far after 2 turns that I feel not to have any chance: Sometimes though you gain a lot of tempo advantage which feels like you can just get there before they stabalize (does not look too good to me). Also 23-24 lands + 4 deathrite and packing loam as well these days making sinkhole plan look pretty bad.

Canadian: another a bit swingy matchup: you can win big if you have mana, but an early combination of: stifle, wasteland, bolt (shaman), daze can win them the game also easily.

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What I've been thinking about:
In deathrite matchups:Tempo is king and it often feels who sticks an early deathrite wins. Decay is an expensive answer making people play disfigure/dismber maindeck as well with additionally 4 Submerge in the sideboard. Did anyone consider 2 additional contagion in the sideboard to support the tempo plan? Also not horrible against Goyfs, Stalkers, Lingering Souls or any random tribals & weenies.

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Originally Posted by catmint

Burn: classic bad matchup for BUG due to price of progress, thoughtseize, dismember,...

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I know BUG decks are said to have a bad burn matchup, but from my experience this is not the case for Bug-Tempo. We´re fast, and Deathrite Shaman improved the matchup a lot. Hymn is also very strong and Price of Progress is easy to play around with Wasteland/Shaman and Daze. Besides that, we have a lot of good sideboard cards we can bring in like Jitte and you can even plan something like Chill if you´re expecting a lot of Burn, which is also good against Goblins, and could be nice against Jund (Bloodbraid Elf, Lightning Bolt, Punishing Fire, ...) and some combo decks. Or Kitchen Finks, Divert, Misdirection, Obstinate Baloth, ... the list is long.

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Originally Posted by catmint

Miracles: current strategy is to attack manabases of midrange/control decks and the hand with discard which is very strong versus stoneblade, but SD.top's miracles is good against both and they play soo many basics making this plan not supported by wasteland and ineffective.

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I´ll quote nitewolf here:

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Originally Posted by nitewolf9

If you keep a top player digging for lands with their top activations, you're in a good spot.

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This is really true, I had to play against Miracles in a tournament and he wasn´t able to reach four mana postboard, although he had an active top. I admit it´s one of the harder matchups, but Hymn+Sinkhole really do a pretty decent job here. Besides that you can still play 2 Grip, or Needles for the Top.

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Originally Posted by nitewolf9

On their own they aren't quite as effective, but together the sum is greater than the parts.

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Next one:

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Originally Posted by catmint

Jund: This matchup feels to me like I can be behind so far after 2 turns that I feel not to have any chance: Sometimes though you gain a lot of tempo advantage which feels like you can just get there before they stabalize (does not look too good to me). Also 23-24 lands + 4 deathrite and packing loam as well these days making sinkhole plan look pretty bad.

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Same is true here: It looks bad on paper, 23 lands, 4 Shaman, loam ... Sinkhole will do nothing ... wrong :) Its acutally pretty good against them. Their manabase is really awkward, and when I had to play against Jund during a tournament the game ended like this: His board: 2 lands, 2-3 cards in hand; My board: Tombstalker, Deathrite Shaman, 3 Lands and 1 card in hand. Although this could be on the extrem side of the spectrum, it shows how efficient Sinkholes are. Its not so much to completely screw them, but to prevent them from casting their important spells while beating them with your creatures. If the game goes a little bit longer, things will look bad for you, but at that point, they should aready face lethal on the board.

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Originally Posted by catmint

Canadian: another a bit swingy matchup: you can win big if you have mana, but an early combination of: stifle, wasteland, bolt (shaman), daze can win them the game also easily.

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Yea, thats a hand many magic players fear, but the matchup is really exciting. It´s pretty balanced, but in my opinion at least 20 percent is decided by the die roll. Thanks to Deathrite Shaman its a bit easier to play around Submerge now, if he survives, but here really every move could be crucial. One of my favourit matchups to play :)

Don't rule Stifle out too fast. On paper, there is obvious potential problems with the tap-out of Hymn (I don't run Sinkholes), but in play this is a minor problem. I have been running a list, for 12 tournament matches (10-1-1) plus random casual/test games, that runs Stifles instead of Delver (with 3 Tombstalker). The simple reasoning being, that this type of deck doesn't want to run too many creatures, and that Tombstalkers, Goyfs and Shamans are more important than Delver. Stifle does a lot of heavy lifting - so my 2 cents: try it out before you rule it out ;)

That aside: How has SB Jaces and/or Sylvan Librarys been for you in mirrors or other matchups where Force of Will is boarded out (if you indeed think that is right?)? Is it too heavy or what?

Thx

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Originally Posted by Valarne

Don't rule Stifle out too fast. On paper, there is obvious potential problems with the tap-out of Hymn (I don't run Sinkholes), but in play this is a minor problem. I have been running a list, for 12 tournament matches (10-1-1) plus random casual/test games, that runs Stifles instead of Delver (with 3 Tombstalker). The simple reasoning being, that this type of deck doesn't want to run too many creatures, and that Tombstalkers, Goyfs and Shamans are more important than Delver. Stifle does a lot of heavy lifting - so my 2 cents: try it out before you rule it out ;)

That aside: How has SB Jaces and/or Sylvan Librarys been for you in mirrors or other matchups where Force of Will is boarded out (if you indeed think that is right?)? Is it too heavy or what?

Thx

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so you are saying we should drop delver?

On Sinkhole vs. Miracles & Jund
The scenarios you desribed are how we want it to play out aka best case. Simplyfied you can say there are also "mediocre" and a "worst case" scenarios and those have to be considered when evaluating the MU% and the SB cards. Remembering one game where it worked out is not very effective. If you do serious testing with sinkholes against those both matchups and tell me "I owned them" I want to see your secrets.

Fact is that if jund curves out pretty well and if it is on the play starting with deathrite you are always behind and playing sinkhole after they made their T2/T3 play is a lot less effective. Good jund players will also have a loam in their 75 and board out/reduce their elfs since they don't need them to win and they know having cards in hand without enough lands is one way to loose. As I said soemtimes (especially on the play) you can also get very much ahead if you have the deathrite/removal/daze/Sinkhole/Wasteland hand. Overall a very swingy matchups where T1 to T3 are pretty much deciding but I think they have more ability to get back from behind than we do.

On miracles: Wasteland is usually justa a colorless land and if you don't have multiple sinkholes in the early turns & they keep struggling to find them in the top3 you are happy. Much more common is that they make their basic drops and you play one sinkhole which they giggle about. :smile:. Also to stop us from winning they just haev to pay W (swords & Terminus).

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

so you are saying we should drop delver?

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Well, it's not an order ;) But I have played without, because it is unnecessary and in tough matchups like Jund, it is a liability by being an almost dead draw. If I am playing Team America, then I don't want to flood the table with threats. I much prefer to have a plethora of spells avilable, and try to clear stuff like Swords away with Hymn, before deploying Tombstalker. DRS will get killed often, but his upside when untapping is much greater than Delver.

That aside, Miracles should be better if we are playing Stifle.