All B/R update speculation.

playing with brainstorm is amazing. Its so fun, regardless of how 'broken' you feel the 4 of makes a deck. Its not like having brainstorm in your deck means you have it in your hand. A 'fair' deck has been crushing legacy for a while now and plenty of people would love to see something put a rain on that parade. Banning brainstorm would only push the 'turn dudes sideways' modern format further into legacy. Sure there are plenty of niche combo decks that could come up if brainstorm were banned, and sure there are apt reasonings behind potentially banning such a card, but we're nowhere near the format warping state to require such a ban. Right now creatures are becoming as powerful as spells were. To me that just means legacy is getting more fun.

Fun is completely definable by 1 persons view, and it can't be defined by a group.. ever. Only reductive values of fun could be applied to a format, and if the format ever became an 'everyones happy' format we'd all just be better off playing accession or dominion and say fuck off to MTG.

Its great to come an argue on the internet, but everyone in this thread regardless of how smart they seem is basing their opinions on THEIR opinions not facts, or tournament data. Otherwise we'd be calling for a ban of something in a deck that takes an average of 60% of games in any given field.


adapt, play smarter, get better.

I've broken every one of my rules for posting on a forum by posting this post, and it goes to show that you shouldn't drink whiskey-worklate-get pissed at renders-and take it out on anon people. Come to GPATL and lets get some real fucking data.

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Originally Posted by Star|Scream

I find it so weird how on one hand people like Hanni say that you should adapt to beat SNT/GB and complain that people are "whining" because they can't continue to play their favorite cards, but then threaten to quit if the DCI were to ban brainstorm, specifically because they play legacy to play with their favorite cards. o.O?

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I don't find it weird at all. If you don't like a format for any reason, you're allowed to quit it. However, whining about it and making it worse for the rest of the players is not very polite. Hanni said he would quit, and he complains about people who whine instead of quitting. Where's the weirdness in that?

Also, it is worth noting that you can change your decklist to beat a broken card, but you can't get a banned card legal no matter how much you change your decklist.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Because banning cards is a serious issue. Once a card gets thrown on the banlist, it's probably never coming off. You will never be allowed to play with that card again. Why in the hell am I playing an Eternal format if I can't play with old cards? In cases like Flash back in 2007, it was understandable. Mental Misstep was understandable, because it was fairly format warping when every single deck in the format was forced to run it as a 4-of. But Mystical Tutor, because of a gentlemans agreement? Survival, because of SCG whiners? Come on man. I draw the line there. If a card like Brainstorm gets banned, I have no incentive to stick around in a format where unbroken stuff keeps getting banned. I want to see cards come off the banned list, not get put onto it.

There's a big difference between adapting to strong strategies like Show and Tell instead of whining about it, and wanting to quit after a string of bad judgement calls on DCI's part regarding bannings. Banning stuff is a slippery slope; if the gentleman's agreement works for Mystical Tutor, there's a whole shitload of cards that could easily fall into that same category. Banning Brainstorm is where I draw the line... I will go indulge in one of my other hobbies.

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+1, this is exactly the way i feel about BS, Id like to see unbannings to shake the format up! altho i feel it is very diverse atm

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Because banning cards is a serious issue. Once a card gets thrown on the banlist, it's probably never coming off. You will never be allowed to play with that card again. Why in the hell am I playing an Eternal format if I can't play with old cards? In cases like Flash back in 2007, it was understandable. Mental Misstep was understandable, because it was fairly format warping when every single deck in the format was forced to run it as a 4-of. But Mystical Tutor, because of a gentlemans agreement? Survival, because of SCG whiners? Come on man. I draw the line there. If a card like Brainstorm gets banned, I have no incentive to stick around in a format where unbroken stuff keeps getting banned. I want to see cards come off the banned list, not get put onto it.

There's a big difference between adapting to strong strategies like Show and Tell instead of whining about it, and wanting to quit after a string of bad judgement calls on DCI's part regarding bannings. Banning stuff is a slippery slope; if the gentleman's agreement works for Mystical Tutor, there's a whole shitload of cards that could easily fall into that same category. Banning Brainstorm is where I draw the line... I will go indulge in one of my other hobbies.

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+1!!!!

Hanni, i'm in love with you!

Also, i would like to see how people who are complaining about brainstorm/s&t/othershit would react on speaking about their cards in this thread (cards they play in their deck)....

About S&T

I think that what disturbs most people about S&T is the fact that Sneak.deck is a totally brainless deck. It is always frustrating to lose against a bad player, and personnally I cannot bear losing t Sneak players making dozens of missplays per game. However, I am not advocating for S&T's ban.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Because banning cards is a serious issue. Once a card gets thrown on the banlist, it's probably never coming off. You will never be allowed to play with that card again. Why in the hell am I playing an Eternal format if I can't play with old cards? In cases like Flash back in 2007, it was understandable. Mental Misstep was understandable, because it was fairly format warping when every single deck in the format was forced to run it as a 4-of. But Mystical Tutor, because of a gentlemans agreement? Survival, because of SCG whiners? Come on man. I draw the line there. If a card like Brainstorm gets banned, I have no incentive to stick around in a format where unbroken stuff keeps getting banned. I want to see cards come off the banned list, not get put onto it.

There's a big difference between adapting to strong strategies like Show and Tell instead of whining about it, and wanting to quit after a string of bad judgement calls on DCI's part regarding bannings. Banning stuff is a slippery slope; if the gentleman's agreement works for Mystical Tutor, there's a whole shitload of cards that could easily fall into that same category. Banning Brainstorm is where I draw the line... I will go indulge in one of my other hobbies.

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I've always wondered when they were going to use the MT logic on another cards(s). That banning set a dangerous precedent.

Just for fun I'm going to point out here that in some nearby parallel universe people are Mystical Tutoring for Show and Tell.

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Originally Posted by thefringthing

Just for fun I'm going to point out here that in some nearby parallel universe people are Mystical Tutoring for Show and Tell.

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And Ad Naus, Entomb.... Miss that format.

They should unban survival, land tax, and earthcraft and ban ooze combo. Mystical tutor should still be banned. Vengevine-survival, would be slightly above avg. in today's meta.

Yeah it makes me sad Survival is still banned. With all the Surgical Extractions flying around today, is Vengevine really that scary?

I mean RUG even traditionally plays 4x Spell Snare on top of all the countermagic!

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Originally Posted by thefringthing

Just for fun I'm going to point out here that in some nearby parallel universe people are Mystical Tutoring for Show and Tell.

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Originally Posted by menace13

And Ad Naus, Entomb.... Miss that format.

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And Miracle cards....

It actually looks like a broken but fun format (given Survival of the Fittest and Mental Misstep is part of that)

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

Yeah it makes me sad Survival is still banned. With all the Surgical Extractions flying around today, is Vengevine really that scary?

I mean RUG even traditionally plays 4x Spell Snare on top of all the countermagic!

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You are totally right. But I doubt they'll unban Sotf soon.

Nothing will be banned.

If anything should be banned it should be Delver.

Or maybe they'll print a another new GW hatebear with "whenever an opponent cheats a fatty into play pick it up, tear it into pieces, yell 'combo is for losers, biatch' and smack your opponent in the face."

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Originally Posted by ddt15

Nothing will be banned.

If anything should be banned it should be Delver.

Or maybe they'll print a another new GW hatebear with "whenever an opponent cheats a fatty into play pick it up, tear it into pieces, yell 'combo is for losers, biatch' and smack your opponent in the face."

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How about "every time an opponent flips delver of secrets, you get to flip the fucking table on him and win the game"?

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Originally Posted by Machahiko

How about "every time an opponent flips delver of secrets, you get to flip the fucking table on him and win the game"?

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I'd like that. Let's send it to wizards' suggestion box. Would add some excitement to those flippin' games vs RUG.

How about a card that says "Destroy target sore loser."... But it would obviously be a dexterity card so it probably won't be printed.

We might be on to something here. New format?

It is fun to see how people call "whining" and then threaten to leave Legacy should their pet card get banned. Shows who the real whiners are...

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Originally Posted by lochlan

It is nothing like in Vintage with Ponder and Brainstorm. In Vintage you get to cantrip into Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall, Time Walk, Tinker, etc. Card selection spells are quite a bit better when they let you access the most powerful cards ever printed.

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Then why are Ponder and Preordain banned in Modern? I haven't played the format in a while but I don't think Lotus or Yawgmoth's Will are legal there.

A dumb card like Ponder too good for Vintage and Modern, but the million times better Brainstorm ok for the format in between them? You can go and explain on how that makes perfect sense with format context but format context can't explain such a gigantic difference. And if you don't believe me, look at the numbers.
The only reason to keep Brainstorm in the format is that players like it despite it being overpowered. But then just admit that it is OP instead of claiming it is a fair card.

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

Can you imagine Belcher in a format with no Brainstorm to dig for FoW?

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Yeah. It won't change anything. Belcher will get a bit higher win% but nothing to worry about. Maybe it will even get worse because Discard becomes viable again.

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Just for fun I'm going to point out here that in some nearby parallel universe people are Mystical Tutoring for Show and Tell.

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First of all, at the time of MT's ban, there wasn't anything wrong with MT in the format.

Secondly, the biggest drawback to MT is that it causes card disadvantage. Especially in the Show and Tell decks that are relying on FoW + Misdirection for their counter backup, the card disadvantage would be extremely noticeable. It would still overall strengthen the consistency of the deck to a degree, but it also gives decks even more tools to fight it, like Thought Scour and Predict, plus the white hatebears like Leonin Arbiter and Aven Mindcensor, and anything else I might be forgetting. Pinpoint discard would get a bit stronger too, since it becomes much easier to empty the opponent's hand when they only have a few cards in it (since SNT needs a fatty in hand + the SNT they tutored for).

Also,

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How about "every time an opponent flips delver of secrets, you get to flip the fucking table on him and win the game"?

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http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...is-Plays-Magic

If only they would print a cheap instant speed discard... Clique is expensive and has a major drawback. I'm thinking something more along the lines of thoughtseize as an instant, which would be devastating.