Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bobmans
Ralf; thnx for the quick respons. I am familiar with SLG in Jund NicFit and i realise my question was not specific. How is your experience with the splash in the GBW lists. Did you get access to R quick enough? Is it really worth spashing for to be at SLG outside of dedicated Jund? How it makes better sense.
With your mana base (7 fetch + 3 DRS + 1 red), you should be good to go.
-> 11 colored sources are required to have 90 % odds to cast a spell at CMC 4 by T4 (assuming you land every turn).
I have not yet splashed for red in GBW. But I did it in the past with other colors.
To be perfectly honest, building a sideboard demands to:
1) Create an excel workbook
2) Create tables for each MU you are expecting (mines are based on: RUG / Elves / Sneak / Jund & Shardless / BUG Delver / Storm / Miracle / D&T / MUD / Infect / Reanimator)
3) Start filling what you side in & out with the sideboard you have imagined
4) Once it is done, you will easily see what MU has to be improved based on your initial sideboard
5) Tweak your sideboard and restart @ 3)
Well, that is how I do it.
If you want to have an idea of what a "clean" sideboard is (as I've spent quite a few hours to optimize it), please have a look at the "Black Suicide" thread in the last 3 or 4 pages.
And trust me, this is a very long task (at least enjoyable) and we can discuss any points that may raise during your homework :laugh:
Edit
Example for Abzan Pod (I have only finished Elves & Sneak)
Elves
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Engineered Plague
2 Pithing Needle
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Hymn To Tourach
2 Surgical Extraction
-1 Dryad arbor
-1 Reclamation Sage
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Sigarda
-1 Veteran Explorer
-1 SFM
-1 Fleshbag Marauder
-1 BSK
-4 Green's sun zenith
Sneak
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Hymn To Tourach
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Liliana of The Veil
-4 Abrupt Decay
-1 Scavenging Ooze
-1 Veteran Explorer
-1 SFM
-1 Jitte
-1 Orzhov Pontiff
-1 Birthing Pod
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Thx Ralf for your answer. I understand the points your are making and will consider them. I really like this form of discussion.
Question: What utility lands could possibly fit a abzan kotr build in addition to karakas and phyrexian tower. Just wondering if there is unexplored space there. I feel like adding more utility lands is "too cute" but maybe there are options.
concerning sideboard: i would love to see sideboard strategies of other nicfit players (preferably abzan) to get an understanding of the possibilities.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dadadot
Question: What utility lands could possibly fit a abzan kotr build in addition to karakas and phyrexian tower. Just wondering if there is unexplored space there. I feel like adding more utility lands is "too cute" but maybe there are options.
You can but you may end up losing your time.
We are no Maverick nor Abzan rock. We don't play 4 KoTR.
Anyway, if you really want to:
1) Make a list of utility lands that can be incorporated in Nic Fit by looking at synergies (Tabernacle + Vet for example). Dismiss all others.
2) Once you have identified the lands that could be played in a Fit version, build the mana base.
Point N°2 will give you headackes because mixing utility + basics is a nightmare.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
I am strongly contemplating running rhinofit for a local this weekend, after a long hiatus from playing nicfit, here is my proposed list.
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Siege Rhino
1 deathrite shaman
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 qasali pridmage
1 baneslayer angel
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 courser of kruphix
1 vindicate
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Path to Exile
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 dryad arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Savannah
2 bayou
1 scrubland
1 tagia
There is one open slot , where that could be diabloic intent or Sidisi, Undead Vizier. I am also strongly contemplating swapping dromoka or a Grave titan, as titan has never disappointed, and dromoka has. Also testing Meren for the first time.
Any thoughts or insights?
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
moseby: i would cut a rhino and put a witness in. she is strong with meren and the etb. vindicate and maelstrom is maybe a bit much. stack up on maybe utility dudes. i like 1 gaddock main for various matchups.
personally i don't like dromoka. i would consider cutting him to smooth out the curve.
jm2c
edit: as discussed earlier a kotr could make sense.
i run 2 thoughtseize main to have a discard reliably in my starting hand and to push my cabal therapys.
i don' t like running either diabolic intent or sidisi. maybe diabolic intent is worth a spot but sidisi just ferls too much like edh. grave titan is more a flavor thing i guess. personally i run a lowe curve without 6 drops. sigarda is the 'let's get serious here' card.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ralf
How to ?
I think we are, in a wide spread fashion, getting cute.
Jamming Bomb is nice. But bombs are usually not very legacy playable.
To jam bombs, we need to ramp.
To ramp we need explorer triggers.
Etc...
Actually I think we are "weak" in the early stage of any games save the veteran + therapy start.
I want more starts that give us another way to compete with other legacy decks.
I have much the same opinion of the deck, I really like it but all of the variants say to me that the community hasn't really figured out what works. I've only been on the deck for a year and I don't even play it every week so I haven't said anything since many of you are very good with it and have been playing for a long time, but I feel like there's something else the deck wants. Cabal Therapy/Veteran Explorer is really strong and it makes a semi passable deck out of just about anything. I think the thing that would take Nic Fit to the next level is figuring out what's actually good to do after that point.
On the subject of bombs, what I've noticed is that 4 mana is this decks sweet spo. An optimal opening allows for a T2 Siege Rhino either off of a GSZ or hardcast, and 4 mana is pretty much where you're looking to be on turn 2 but you usually spend some of that T2 mana on ramp which only leaves you 3 to cast something or alternatively a GSZ into a 3 drop. I think that 5 and 6 drops while fun are off plan.
My criticism of KotR (and you may be right on it regardless) is that you ideally want a land toolbox to work with it and this deck doesn't have a whole lot of room for that toolbox because of the basic land count. I do agree that Abzan is where you want to be though, Siege Rhino is a very good card. Out of the 60/61 cards I think that what's locked is
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Siege Rhino
4 Green Sun's Zenith
6 Basic lands
9 fetchlands
4 duals
3 other lands
3 Divining Top
So really the question is what's the most powerful thing you can do in the remaining 20-21 slots. Though to be honest I've wondered if GSZ is actually where the deck wants to be, it might be better as primary black, secondary green but for now I'll go with the GSZ plan above even though my next suggestions make an argument against GSZ. I do know that when I played Pod the lack of GSZ was never an issue because other tutors were available.
What about playing up the discard angle? Use all 3 of the flex land slots on Phyrexian Towers, max out on Hymn to Tourach, and maybe something like Drainpipe Vermin as a second early sac target alongside some DRS as a backup ramp card. Would that be enough disruption to fix the bad matchups? (I'm not really sure since I just switched to Junk from BUG which has totally different matchups). The heavy black of this plan would make something like Liliana which people mentioned earlier a bit easier to cast and it makes Murderous Redcap possible though GSZ misses him.
With Rhino you're splashing white which almost demands a Stoneforge package in my opinion, I get why the deck doesn't run it but at the same time I kind of feel like it's intentionally not running one of the best things to do in the format just because of GSZ. As an alternative to GSZ aside from Diabolic Intent has anyone ever considered Dark Petition if you're leaning heavily black?
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Im currently running this list for the new jersey open. Any advice would be great because I just want to know what people think
3 veteran explorer
3 drs
1 scavenging ooze
1 gaddoc teeg
1 qasali pridemage
1 eternal witness
1 thrun the last troll
4 siege rhino
1 thragtusk
1 sigarda
4 gsz
4 cabal therapy
2 senseis top
4 abrupt decay
3 pernicious deed
1 painful truths
1 maelstrom pulse
1 kolaghans command
1 garruk relentless
2 wooded foothills
3 windswept heath
3 bloodstained mire
2 savannah
1 bayou
1 badlands
1 taiga
1 phyrexian tower
1 volraths stronghold
1 kessig wolf run
2 forest
3 swamp
1 plains
sideboard
3 pyroblast
2 slaughter games
2 leyline of the void
1 toxic deluge
1 golgari charm
2 carpet of flowers
1 choke
1 from the ashes
1 containment priest
1 ethersworn canonist
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Krzysio
Im currently running this list for the new jersey open. Any advice would be great because I just want to know what people think
3 veteran explorer
3 drs
1 scavenging ooze
1 gaddoc teeg
1 qasali pridemage
1 eternal witness
1 thrun the last troll
4 siege rhino
1 thragtusk
1 sigarda
4 gsz
4 cabal therapy
2 senseis top
4 abrupt decay
3 pernicious deed
1 painful truths
1 maelstrom pulse
1 kolaghans command
1 garruk relentless
2 wooded foothills
3 windswept heath
3 bloodstained mire
2 savannah
1 bayou
1 badlands
1 taiga
1 phyrexian tower
1 volraths stronghold
1 kessig wolf run
2 forest
3 swamp
1 plains
sideboard
3 pyroblast
2 slaughter games
2 leyline of the void
1 toxic deluge
1 golgari charm
2 carpet of flowers
1 choke
1 from the ashes
1 containment priest
1 ethersworn canonist
my tips:
a)In my oppinion playing 4 color with 6 basic isn't the best idea...
b) 2x tops isn't enough to control your topdeck and again 2 tops are low to help u keep your gamplay with 4 colors
c) garruk relentless - i like this guy, but why just 3x veteran if u r playing garruk? 4th veteren help you with chance to flip garruk in every matchup
d) your removal spells are expensive and often you can just remove a creature and u r done in your turn... i rather use some SwordstP or PathTE
e) You have just one 5mana bomb = sigarda... so you often tutor her with zenith, but you have gaddock in main. That can hurt
f) If you cut one Rhino u have space for Meren, u r not interested in that guy? I tested him just few times, but always he did his job
btw: from the ashes - :D that could be funny!! :), but... only matchup where its better then Tsunami is MUD and 12POST .. just depend on your meta
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nargoron
my tips:
a)In my oppinion playing 4 color with 6 basic isn't the best idea...
b) 2x tops isn't enough to control your topdeck and again 2 tops are low to help u keep your gamplay with 4 colors
c) garruk relentless - i like this guy, but why just 3x veteran if u r playing garruk? 4th veteren help you with chance to flip garruk in every matchup
d) your removal spells are expensive and often you can just remove a creature and u r done in your turn... i rather use some SwordstP or PathTE
e) You have just one 5mana bomb = sigarda... so you often tutor her with zenith, but you have gaddock in main. That can hurt
f) If you cut one Rhino u have space for Meren, u r not interested in that guy? I tested him just few times, but always he did his job
btw: from the ashes - :D that could be funny!! :), but... only matchup where its better then Tsunami is MUD and 12POST .. just depend on your meta
Ive been testing it and only running 6 basics hasnt ever been a problem for me.
I want a 3rd top but not sure what to cut
why do i need 4 veteran to flip relentless. im ususally fighting my opponents creatures
2 mana removal isnt the most expensive. what would you cut for swords or paths?
gaddoc is there for mianbioard hate vs miracles/combo/elves, which i need. but sigarda is usually enough, and comboed with thrun they put in work
Ive playtested Meren, but she either never came up or died instantly. If you swear by her and others do to i can try her.
from the ashes is there for mud/12 post/ and other super greedy deck. I only have 1 mud list in my meta, but i dont want to auto fold to it at the scg open tomorrow incase i randomly play against it
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Krzysio
Ive been testing it and only running 6 basics hasnt ever been a problem for me.
I want a 3rd top but not sure what to cut
why do i need 4 veteran to flip relentless. im ususally fighting my opponents creatures
2 mana removal isnt the most expensive. what would you cut for swords or paths?
gaddoc is there for mianbioard hate vs miracles/combo/elves, which i need. but sigarda is usually enough, and comboed with thrun they put in work
Ive playtested Meren, but she either never came up or died instantly. If you swear by her and others do to i can try her.
from the ashes is there for mud/12 post/ and other super greedy deck. I only have 1 mud list in my meta, but i dont want to auto fold to it at the scg open tomorrow incase i randomly play against it
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Krzysio
Ive been testing it and only running 6 basics hasnt ever been a problem for me.
Then u r a lucky guy... i have often problems with 3 colors... especialy when dig is banned and stifles + wastelands are back.. ( ive been seen lots of stifles last days) and hymn which can destroy your gameplan too...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Krzysio
why do i need 4 veteran to flip relentless. im ususally fighting my opponents creatures
ofc that your primary targets are opponents creatures, but dont forget that this guy has only 3 counters, so you cant kill fliped delver, goyf ... and you have no way to grow him up. So very often you sac your own dryad or veteran to make this guy nasty
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Krzysio
what would you cut for swords or paths?
paying 2 mana ... often you have 3-4 mana and if you spent 2 mana for removal u r done for this turn...
And dont forget that swords or paths have another advantage... you can kill griselbrand,Elesh.. and this sort of creatures... and delve creatures like gurmag or tasigur. Against them your deeds and decays are ... useless
Iv
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Krzysio
playtested Meren, but she either never came up or died instantly. If you swear by her and others do to i can try her.
Only swords or terminus can kill your meren... and opponent has to kill him your turn or he gives you some guy from grave... and another creature can be better then 3 damage from rhino
I had fun with meren, i like this card
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nargoron
Then u r a lucky guy... i have often problems with 3 colors... especialy when dig is banned and stifles + wastelands are back.. ( ive been seen lots of stifles last days) and hymn which can destroy your gameplan too...
ofc that your primary targets are opponents creatures, but dont forget that this guy has only 3 counters, so you cant kill fliped delver, goyf ... and you have no way to grow him up. So very often you sac your own dryad or veteran to make this guy nasty
paying 2 mana ... often you have 3-4 mana and if you spent 2 mana for removal u r done for this turn...
And dont forget that swords or paths have another advantage... you can kill griselbrand,Elesh.. and this sort of creatures... and delve creatures like gurmag or tasigur. Against them your deeds and decays are ... useless
Iv
Only swords or terminus can kill your meren... and opponent has to kill him your turn or he gives you some guy from grave... and another creature can be better then 3 damage from rhino
I had fun with meren, i like this card
Our meta has delvers and wastelands, but ive always been able to play around them. the only LD i lose to is sundering titan from our MUD player
thats fair, though i usually dont keep him in vs delver, because he is too slow, but I understand your reasoning.
Thats fair. what would you cut for X amount of swords?
that is also fair. In that case I will cut 1 rhino for 1 meren
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Krzysio
Thats fair. what would you cut for X amount of swords?
For example iam currently playing 2decays + 2Swords, third decay in Side
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nargoron
For example iam currently playing 2decays + 2Swords, third decay in Side
I unfortunatly have 0 room in my board. I could cut it down to 2 decay 2 swords, and just run that, but i feel that decay should always be a 3 of minimum. I could probably cut garruk, as he is generally my weakest card
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Krzysio
I unfortunatly have 0 room in my board. I could cut it down to 2 decay 2 swords, and just run that, but i feel that decay should always be a 3 of minimum. I could probably cut garruk, as he is generally my weakest card
not bad idea...
i like planeswalkers but... in 90% cases i wish to be some rhino rather...
the only matchup where are walkers better .. miracles
btw: what about Karakas? You have sigarda, Gaddock,you will play meren...
I will prefer Karakas over volraths stronghold ( ..you have meren) or kessig wolf
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nargoron
not bad idea...
i like planeswalkers but... in 90% cases i wish to be some rhino rather...
the only matchup where are walkers better .. miracles
btw: what about Karakas? You have sigarda, Gaddock,you will play meren...
I will prefer Karakas over volraths stronghold ( ..you have meren) or kessig wolf
I unfortunatly dont own karakas, and its a little out of my budget which is sad. I perfer running both meren and stronghold incase one dies, but yeah if i had a karakas, i would run it.
yeah i expect a lot of miracles at jersey, which is why im skeptical of swords. Its one of those damned if you do, damned if you dont cases
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Krzysio
I unfortunatly dont own karakas, and its a little out of my budget which is sad. I perfer running both meren and stronghold incase one dies, but yeah if i had a karakas, i would run it.
yeah i expect a lot of miracles at jersey, which is why im skeptical of swords. Its one of those damned if you do, damned if you dont cases
Running 4 decay seems to be the right choice right now. So much delver and miracles. Also carpet in the side for the miracles matchup. Slaughter their terminus and flood the board with threats.
Max out on vet and therapy with a few Drs to help and don't mess around with swords. Just play good creatures and win.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Played my list at a small event tonight. Went up against Show and Tell (2-1), Shardless BUG (2-0), and Jund (2-0). It felt good to go 3-0 (there were 12 of us so 2 3-0's at the end, but time limited it to 3 rounds) in my first actual attempt with the deck as Junk rather than BUG. I really liked how it played out, the only thing I didn't like was that I didn't see my Deeds very often. I didn't really need them against that lineup but 2 feels like too few based on what I saw.
Meren only got to come out once but when it did it was game over. I didn't even get any counters on it but returning Siege Rhino to my hand only to sacrifice it and return it again next turn was amazing. Meren (combined with enough stuff to sacrifice) was powerful enough that with my 23 life I was able to keep both a Griselbrand and an Emrakul back on defense.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Hey all--Only own Storm in Legacy, however, I want to add a "fair" deck to my collection as well and I've been jamming Junk Fit on Cockatrice and I love it. Here's where I'm starting:
Creatures:
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Siege Rhino
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda
1 Meren
Spells:
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Sensei's Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Painful Truths
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Diabolic Intent
22 Lands w/ 1 Tower/1 Volrath
Side:
2 Duress
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddok Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
1 Toxic Deluge
Couple questions...I've seen some lists run 61 cards...what's the argument behind that? Is it really necessary? I'm also struggling picking between Path to Exile and Swords...right now, giving them life seems better to me.
And my SB...granted, it's meta dependent but I want game vs Combo so I've dedicated a lot to that. Is Sylvan worth the slot? Thinking I like it in the grindy match ups. Double black for Hymn may just be shit, too...haven't had a game where it's come up yet.
Any specific tips/tricks for a new player?
Blind Therapy naming Pyroblast after opponent resolved Painter and hitting 2 was the highlight of my night tonight w the deck (then proceeded to double Rhino for the win) .
I may want the 4th Rhino...
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BeardTron
Couple questions...I've seen some lists run 61 cards...what's the argument behind that? Is it really necessary? I'm also struggling picking between Path to Exile and Swords...right now, giving them life seems better to me.
The argument behind 61 is that the increased toolbox is worth more than the added inconsistency. Normally the argument for 60 cards goes something like this. Your deck has an average power level of X, and your 61st card is going to be your weakest card, therefore it's bringing down the power level of your deck. But in a deck that has a high number of tutors that's not really true because that weakest card is sometimes going to be your strongest card and you can usually find it. Because of that the 60 card logic doesn't completely hold true. As for why 61 specifically, if you add a 62nd card you're also probably adding a 63rd as a land so that 61st card only costs you 1 deck slot but the 62nd card costs you 2 deck slots which is significantly more expensive.
Re: [Primer/Deck] Nic Fit
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BeardTron
Hey all--Only own Storm in Legacy, however, I want to add a "fair" deck to my collection as well and I've been jamming Junk Fit on Cockatrice and I love it. Here's where I'm starting:
List
Couple questions...I've seen some lists run 61 cards...what's the argument behind that? Is it really necessary? I'm also struggling picking between Path to Exile and Swords...right now, giving them life seems better to me.
And my SB...granted, it's meta dependent but I want game vs Combo so I've dedicated a lot to that. Is Sylvan worth the slot? Thinking I like it in the grindy match ups. Double black for Hymn may just be shit, too...haven't had a game where it's come up yet.
Any specific tips/tricks for a new player?
Blind Therapy naming Pyroblast after opponent resolved Painter and hitting 2 was the highlight of my night tonight w the deck (then proceeded to double Rhino for the win) .
I may want the 4th Rhino...
Welcome aboard, seems that NicFit is popular.
The 61st card is not necessary, but like said; it just gives you a small bit of design space while you cant notice its presence on consistancy.
Chosing PtE or StP follows arguments that are really meta dependant and personal. In the end arguments for running either equal each other out, so ultimately there is no "best" of the two. The fact no one seems to agree of which is better confirms that.
Every NicFit SB is mostly dedicated yo beat combo, since G1 we are already strong vs fair.dec. there might be some slots dedicated to specific MU's outside of combo. Say Golgari Charm, Toxic Deluge, combat walkers, etc.
The only tip is: enjoy and keep playing it disregarding losing or whatever. This deck is the funnest one i've played since Survival of the Fittest (Tezzeret aswell actually).
