Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I dusted off my list this past weekend at the Jupiter Game NELC series and did moderately well. Lost to goblins round one of all things which I found to be amusing since I beat High Tide in round two...
Not much you can do when in game three against goblins they're on top deck mode and flip a ringleader into 3 land and another ringleader... which went in to warchief, matron, matron, land...
AEther Vial is amazing and I'll always love that card. Game one vs High Tide they go first and I have a turn one vial, he passes his third turn and I take vial to three counters play a mom. His go I port an island, he casts high tide in response. His main phase in response to him casting candalabra, vial in revoker... that won me the game.
My list plays a full set of Leonin Arbiters. Arbiter hurts virtually every deck, mainly through fetches and mystics.
I lost my win and in round to Junk, the had the play and turn 2 bob that I didn't get an answer to quickly enough. He had all the answers he needed exactly when he needed them even when he was in top deck mode in game two. It's the beats, sucks, but it's all part of the game. Ended up in 20th of 88 people, so I suppose that's not too shabby.
I know I didn't give you guys much information to go off, but I despise writing and never keep notes to actually make a tourney report and I'm in a bit of a hurry right now anyway. I will say for my last thing though; There are a lot of people who cannot grasp how this decks works/how good it is just by looking at a list, most need to have played against it a couple times just to start learning some of the massive amounts of tricks it has at its disposal. It's why I personally love this deck (and Forgemaster MUD, more tricks locked up in a single deck) and have put up several good results with it. First time I played it was nearly two years ago at Jupiter Games game one round one was the first time I ever played it, no testing with it before hand) with one loss in the swiss who I beat in the finals (Turbodrazi is not that much fun to play against with D&T, but oh the tricks you can play!) and go 72nd(I had 31 pts, no one with 31 pts prized, everyone with 32 pts did) with it out at GP Indy last year as well as other prize finishes at smaller events. Unless you've seen this deck in action before (and for a few who have for that matter) many people don't how to play against the deck because of all the interactions it has against most anything.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Mana-base doesn't support it. Makes us too susceptable to wasteland. Takes up too much space for a small splash in which there is always a solution in the colour we play.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
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Originally Posted by
monovfox
Mana-base doesn't support it. Makes us too susceptable to wasteland. Takes up too much space for a small splash.
Strasbourg lists ran 9 basics. 7 fetches and 2 basics would be equivalent. Wasteland is obviously not an issue then. Less so in fact if you also have Hierarch and Dryad Arbor to GSZ for.
It is clearly possibly within that to reliably support at least a minor splash as evidenced by the performance history of the entire format over the past eight years.
As for "takes up too much space" this is clearly an issue of what exactly you're splashing for; I would also reference my earlier post where I discussed what we mean by "free space."
It is certainly intellectually and emotionally easier to not have to cut any really good cards, but if you're not making painful cuts you're probably running an underpowered list.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
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Originally Posted by
TheInfamousBearAssassin
Strasbourg lists ran 9 basics. 7 fetches and 2 basics would be equivalent. Wasteland is obviously not an issue then. Less so in fact if you also have Hierarch and Dryad Arbor to GSZ for.
It is clearly possibly within that to reliably support at least a minor splash as evidenced by the performance history of the entire format over the past eight years.
As for "takes up too much space" this is clearly an issue of what exactly you're splashing for; I would also reference my earlier post where I discussed what we mean by "free space."
It is certainly intellectually and emotionally easier to not have to cut any really good cards, but if you're not making painful cuts you're probably running an underpowered list.
Wasteland isn't the only issue, price of progress is also an issue. so if I ran 5 fetches, 2 savannahs, and 2 basics, I've essentially made it impossible for me to get 3 white. The white sources are very important to this deck. To get locked out of them is to lose the game (6 of our white sources can be hit by wasteland, sometimes 7 depending on list).
This deck really has no need for a dork. It won a GP without it. It's been developing for 6-7 years now. It also won an SCG open without dorks (or splash). I've frequently top 8d, Finn has frequently top 8d, a few others on MTGS frequently top 8. So no. It doesn't need a splash. (the only card without white I'd ever run is qasali pridemage as a one-of to act as a disenchant out of the board if I think they are packing sideboard tech, but don't want to commit to a disenchant out of the board). So, now time to make your argument look silly.
Rug delver, even though it top 8s a lot, needs to run Deathrite shaman. Suuuure, it has top 8d and won GPs, but that doesn't mean it's the best list. What reason does it have to NOT run Deathrite shaman? i mean, just look at how good deathrite shaman is. he makes Nimble mongoose look so bad. A much more powerful card. Nimble mongoose really doesn't have a purpose in the RUG deck the Deathrite shaman doesn't fill. DOHOHOHOHOHOHOH I AM A SMERTICLE
Edited for grammar, as you seem like the type of person to attack people based upon poor spelling, and not logic.
Come back to me once you have played the deck for 6 months.
You also asked why we can't splash, rather than why we DON'T splash. Simple: The deck is already efficient enough, and I see no reason to dilute a solid maindeck for more mana-intensive cards of another color that I may or may not get to cast.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
monovfox
Wasteland isn't the only issue, price of progress is also an issue. so if I ran 5 fetches, 2 savannahs, and 2 basics, I've essentially made it impossible for me to get 3 white. The white sources are very important to this deck. To get locked out of them is to lose the game (6 of our white sources can be hit by wasteland, sometimes 7 depending on list).
You can probably trim a couple Karakas. And fucking Eiganjo for fuck's sake.
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This deck really has no need for a dork. It won a GP without it. It's been developing for 6-7 years now. It also won an SCG open without dorks (or splash). I've frequently top 8d, Finn has frequently top 8d, a few others on MTGS frequently top 8. So no. It doesn't need a splash. (the only card without white I'd ever run is qasali pridemage as a one-of to act as a disenchant out of the board if I think they are packing sideboard tech, but don't want to commit to a disenchant out of the board). So, now time to make your argument look silly.
People have won many large tournaments with mono-R burn and Affinity, but those aren't very good decks. In fact, much as in this case the mono-R version of burn is much better in every discernible quality than Delver-Burn, as there exists no real reason to not run G/W Death and Taxes instead of mono-white Maverick.
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Rug delver, even though it top 8s a lot, needs to run Deathrite shaman. Suuuure, it has top 8d and won GPs, but that doesn't mean it's the best list. What reason does it have to NOT run Deathrite shaman? i mean, just look at how good deathrite shaman is. he makes Nimble mongoose look so bad. A much more powerful card. Nimble mongoose really doesn't have a purpose in the RUG deck the Deathrite shaman doesn't fill. DOHOHOHOHOHOHOH I AM A SMERTICLE
I mean Nimble Mongoose is much more aggressive than Deathrite Shaman, can't be targeted, and doesn't require running black to do damage.
I mean do you see how you asked, "Why not run card X in deck Y" and I responded with actual reasons and not appeals to transcendental identities?
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Edited for grammar, as you seem like the type of person to attack people based upon poor spelling, and not logic.
See above. I am not the one saying, "Don't listen to X's arguments, he's just trolling."
Also I'm linguistically a descriptivist as it happens.
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Come back to me once you have played the deck for 6 months.
"Logic."
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the word's meaning.
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You also asked why we can't splash, rather than why we DON'T splash. Simple: The deck is already efficient enough, and I see no reason to dilute a solid maindeck for more mana-intensive cards of another color that I may or may not get to cast.
"Already efficient enough" is a definitionally bad answer if it could be made better.
And you make it sound so difficult to reliably cast spells in a two color deck. If only we had, say, years and years of testing data of the reliability of 2+ color decks in Legacy showing that literally tens of thousands of people have managed this feat successfully.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheInfamousBearAssassin
You can probably trim a couple Karakas and fucking Eiganjo for fuck's sake.
People have won many large tournaments with mono-R burn and Affinity, but those aren't very good decks. In fact, much as in this case the mono-R version of burn is much better in every discernible quality than Delver-Burn, as there exists no real reason to not run G/W Death and Taxes instead of mono-white Maverick.
I mean Nimble Mongoose is much more aggressive than Deathrite Shaman, can't be targeted, and doesn't require running black to do damage.
I mean do you see how you asked, "Why not run card X in deck Y" and I responded with actual reasons and not appeals to transcendental identities?
See above. I am not the one saying, "Don't listen to X's arguments, he's just trolling."
Also I'm linguistically a descriptivist as it happens.
"Logic."
Perhaps you are
unfamiliar with the word's meaning.
"Already efficient enough" is a definitionally bad answer if it could be made better.
And you make it sound so difficult to reliably cast spells in a two color deck. If only we had, say, years and years of testing data of the reliability of 2+ color decks in Legacy showing that literally tens of thousands of people have managed this feat successfully.
It is hard to cast multi-colour spells in a two color deck that is running 8 colour less sources. What is relevant about crusader is that he gets PAST goyf, and is all around solid in the aggro matchups. Knight of the reliquary just doesn't fit in this deck, becuase we don't need to be tutorig up lands, and many times out white sources won't be plains. I refuse to run any less than 4 Karakas, due to it being highly synergetic and acting as a wasteland against decks running white. Yet again, you haven't played the deck, you should probably go play it, top 8, come back, an write me a 10 page essay on why I should run knight of the reliquary. Btw, we bring rest in peace out of the board for jund, so he's essentially for 2/2 for 3. Many decks can and have splashed, but does that mean they should(you provide an example of this in delver burn). There, is that enough reasoning for you?
If there is a card DnT would splash for, it would either be the academy ruins for creatures, or a Qasali pridemage.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
monovfox
It is hard to cast multi-colour spells in a two color deck that is running 8 colour less sources.
Hence the goodness of Hierarch and the badness of Port.
I would say that Port is not worth cutting Knight from G/W Death and Taxes for, since Knight does more and lets you just get more Wastelands etc..
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What is relevant about crusader is that he gets PAST goyf, and is all around solid in the aggro matchups.
He usually dies to merfolk in combat and also every burn spell. Also two life off of StP is rarely relevant whereas 8-10 life often is.
I mean they can chumpblock Knight with a Goyf I guess. Think about that for a second.
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Knight of the reliquary just doesn't fit in this deck, becuase we don't need to be tutorig up lands
Chaingunning Wastelands seems pretty good to me for some reason.
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and many times out white sources won't be plains. I refuse to run any less than 4 Karakas, due to it being highly synergetic and acting as a wasteland against decks running white.
The GP top 8ing lists ran 3, but I guess you know more than people that did well in that tournament that one time.[/argumentyouwereliterallyjustusing]
Anyway 4 Knight + 4 GSZ + 2 Karakas is like, 10 Karakas, which is like more than twice as many as you're running with 4.
10.5 really since if they Waste/Legendrule it you can get it back with GSZ->Witness.
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Yet again, you haven't played the deck, you should probably go play it, top 8, come back, an write me a 10 page essay on why I should run [s]knight of the reliquary[/s] 4 Karakas.
Oh there it is again.
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Btw, we bring rest in peace out of the board for jund, so he's essentially for 2/2 for 3. Many decks can and have splashed, but does that mean they should(you provide an example of this in delver burn). There, is that enough reasoning for you?
You know they printed this card called Scavenging Ooze. Even better you can have him G1 and not just die to Punishing Fire.
No, to be honest this mostly sounds like an evasion of reasoning. The only really solidly grounded concern seems to be that it's hard to cast two colors of spells, or harder than one, but see again empirical results of 8 years of this format.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Empirical results of different decks that are not this deck are no good. I'm not trying to dodge the question.
You made a point about the GP list with 3 Karakas. I prefer 4. Some maverick players don't run certain cards, even if the "best" list was running them, just due to preference. I also don't run mindcensor becuase I think it is a bad card.(yet again, a choice due to preference). Perhaps I don't splash due to preference. I'm not saying a splash is wrong, I am justifying why we don't splash. Whether you choose to believe my reasoning is your choice.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I sense a bit of frustration in your posts IBA. What do you expect to happen? That people agree - this thread is closed down and everybody plays maverick?
You asked for the reasons why people play this over Maverick. The reasons where oulined (tricks & synergies, port, color mana not hurt by stifle & wasteland). You replied that you don't think these reasons are valid (port is bad, mana is not a problem, tricks/synergies are worse than powerful GW cards). At some point both parties have to let go because they are not able to convince each other and that's ok. Accepting each others opinion is a fundemantal communication skill that not only nurtures the argument instead of "ranting" but also shows respect to each other.
I am surely not a friend of IBA, but in this thread for his standards the style of the argument was very content-centered and not really about personal attacks (even ignoring personal attacks against him), which is something positive. What was lacking is outline above..."letting it go" and "leaving people their own opinions and experiences".
As for the argument I do appreciate that people try to use "logic" to come to the conclusion on what the best cards are in given decks, but I think it is well known that playtesting (for a long time) is really enlightening. That people "fail" to outline their conclusions from testing/playing in way that it makes sense in IBA's logic is a different issue.
One question IBA aiming at showing you that your logic might not always be perfect: I never played maverick but I've played against it with many different decks and I also talked a lot to very successful Maverick players. Everyone comes to the conclusion that scryb ranger as a 1-2 of is the nuts in Maverick. You seem to reject it. Is everyone else wrong again or could it be that your logic is not perfect?
My logic tells me that you not appreciating scryb ranger shows that your skills in getting the max value out of tricks and utility creatures is limited. Hence it makes sense that death and taxes looks like a bunch of suboptimal stuff to you.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
If people are willing to concede that they share fundamentally the same strategies and are essentially the splash/unsplash of the same deck, I am perfectly happy to let people come to their own conclusions about which is preferable between G/W D&T or Mono-White Maverick, and whether they think Revoker et. al. are enough to be getting on with and better than reaching out for Knight of the Reliquary, Teeg, Ooze and Pridemage.
I will, on the subject of cool tricks, say that Knight of the Reliquary (amongst some other cards I would strongly recommend playing or at least hold as playable,) is capable of some incredibly cool tricks. It can bounce legends; it can destroy lands; it can "block" flyers with Maze of Ith or give itself Vigilance with the same. It can wipe out graveyards; it can fetch another creature in response to sac effects, or it can sac a creature to nuke Bridge from Below. It can even, if we want to get more arcane, destroy Germs, regenerate itself or other creatures, generate a G for each creature you control, give a creature -2/-2 until end of turn, put creatures from your graveyard on top of your library, or a number of other neat tricks.
It does all this while being usually a 7/7, 8/8 or bigger.
But people really liking cool tricks doesn't mean that that's what's winning them the game and there was a pretty important article about this.
Scryb Ranger enables really cool plays while being a 1/1 and doing basically nothing by itself other than perpetually chumpblocking a Delver. Like lots of the examples I gave with Knight, I don't find that worth the cost. Now people love their cool tricks and maybe to them that's worth more than increasing their chances of winning, but if we're starting from a competitive standpoint? Yeah, the card's junk. I'm also clearly not the only person who thinks so since the guy that top 8'd with the deck at this past GP didn't run it (not, again, that that's some iron-clad defense; but this is not some insane outlier opinion. I'm going to point out that I said the same thing about Gaea's Cradle when every Maverick list was running that and now everyone's cut it.)
And for the same reasons a lot of the cards in standard D&T lists are just, honestly, bad. Vialing in Serra Avenger on turn 3 is so good, right, you're cheating? I mean I love the card- I actually built a Standard deck around it that got Calosso Fuentes 9th at States- but your turn 3 ideal play of the card is approximately 500% below the power level of turn 1 Delver. But it makes people feel really clever, like they got away with something, hacked the game- and that's what's so dangerous.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I happen to think that Blue splash is worth more than the Green splash, not so much for the creatures (Green has that department locked up), but moreso for Brainstorm, Daze, Stifle, and Geist. Weathered Wayfarer is also a boss.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Maybe IBA has a point. If the deck is focussed more towards a 'maverick' strategy, it might do even better. But if that's the case, perhaps you could mock up a list and report on some results? If the splash makes the deck 'strictly better', sure I'd try it! I think we should never close our ears to discussion.
However, I do think D&T should be strictly played as a control deck. The main plan of D&T is to stick needles in the plan of other decks, rather than deploying scary big things from the get go. The thing is though, sticking only a few needles in someone's plan isn't enough. The marginal added value of each consecutive needle is increasing, so the third needle has more 'value' than the second, the fourth more than the third and so on an so forth. So cutting needles for other cards like Zenith and a tutorable package might add power to the deck, but it does decrease the overall value of the remaining needles. Testing might prove me wrong (and I'd be very interested to hear so), but I think cutting some needles would render the rest of the plan subpar.
Therefore there are two decks with different plans: maverick and D&T. The maverick strategy is farely loose and might have some different possibilities (the 'conventional configuration', going vial, going towards junk, going towards punishing fire) and all have been battle-tested in tournaments with nice results. The current D&T strategy has also been successfully tested in a tournament environment, but slight deviations from the plan will offset it. Therefore we haven't seen many successful alternative versions of D&T. Also, having very little experience with the deck, I think I should stay as true to the battle-tested versions of this deck before trying to invent the wheel. I need to get more of a feel in playing this deck.
But, and I can't stress this enough, testing might prove me wrong. If it interests you, please make a list and report on some testing againsts different matchups.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
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Originally Posted by
Koby
I happen to think that Blue splash is worth more than the Green splash, not so much for the creatures (Green has that department locked up), but moreso for Brainstorm, Daze, Stifle, and Geist. Weathered Wayfarer is also a boss.
All those cards are great indeed, but do somewhat decrease the value of our own Thalia. However, weathered wayfarer seems SO COOL! When I read your post I thought wayfarer only grabs basics, but it seems to take any land! This is huge, IMO. It allows for a whole new kind of land package.
I'll be testing that one for sure!
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
You will definitely need fetchlands for weather wayfarer to shine:
Fetch/wasteland, in response (before searching, thereby having one less land on the battlefield) activate wayfarer.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
For those that might not remember, from the dawn of Legacy. Alix top 8'd with it again at GenCon, adding E-Tutor.
This is obviously outmoded by 8 years of new cards, but some people might appreciate it for historic value.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
M@verick plays a GW vial list with wayfarer and from my countless MWS games against him I can tell you this little beast does so many mean things. M@averick also plays Revoker, only 3 Knight of the Reliquary and no GSZ, so his deck is more a less a merger of the classic Maverick list and Death and Taxes. I hope he joins the discussions.
Compared to death and taxes he looses disruption, but has more card advantage and more "punch" with Knight and some tricks where he uses cradle/vial and SFM to tutor, play, equip, attack with a sword in one turn closing out games.
I do think that facing Terminus & Punishing fire a creature strategy based around vial gives your mother a bigger chance to survive and vial gives your opponents in general more headaches.
If monowhite or M@vericks (who has countless top8s) version is the best - who knows. M@verick is even testing splashing black for more disruption. That the classic Maverick list with Junk or Punishing Variations will still stay stock legacy material is out of the question. Having a couple of different creature decks to be viable is surely better for legacy than if everyone is playing the same.
On a personal note. The way M@verick plays made me think about not playing blue (except for my old pet deck elves) for the first time since I spent a fortune on buying into leagcy. The success of Death and Taxes at the GP makes it even more interesting.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hjalte
You will definitely need fetchlands for weather wayfarer to shine:
Fetch/wasteland, in response (before searching, thereby having one less land on the battlefield) activate wayfarer.
Doesn't work...
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
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Originally Posted by
bondafong
Doesn't work...
Why not? When the Wayfarer abbility is activated, he sees one land fewer and resolves, right?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
It works. You activate him after the sac and before resolution. That card is hard to use in a control deck though. You kinda HAVE to have an active Vial.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Finn
It works. You activate him after the sac and before resolution. That card is hard to use in a control deck though. You kinda HAVE to have an active Vial.
It does allow you to be controlling, right? Chaining wastelands seems awesome.
Testing time!
