Printable View
Dammit, wanted to play this deck before top got banned, but didn't own the LED's and volcanics. But with these techs (act on impulse, lake of the dead and edge of autumn) I'm vertical tempted to buy them :-D
The empty the Warren's is OK if you have a burning wish and 8 (preferably 9 or with a led on the field) Mana open. Wish - - > Time Spiral
Basicly, there is two build of Doomsday available. The first one is the classic DDFT version, the second one is the "Meandeck" version focused to kill with Maniac and Shelldock Isle. Here is two list you can grab to work and play with. Honestly, with SDT Ban, I still dont know if the DDFT Storm version is yet competitive nor if Meandeck version is. But both use Doomsday and it's fantastic to cast it !
PS: I do play Grim Tutor, mainly because I have it, but 2 Preordain are really good at these two slots too !
Doomsday Tendrils list is heavily inspired from lichius deck published on stormboards
LEGACY DOOMSDAY TENDRILS
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Preordain
3 Doomsday
3 Burning Wish
2 Grim Tutor
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Lotus Petal
1 Rain of Filth
1 Three Wishes
// 18 LANDS
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island // 4th color splash
1 Bayou // 4th color splash
2 Island
1 Swamp
//SIDEBOARD
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Doomsday
1 Cruel Bargain
1 Massacre
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Meltdown
1 Time Spiral
1 Void Snare
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Karakas
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Surgical Extraction
MANIAC PILE
Requirements : 2 cantrip
LED
TW
Maniac
LED
GP
Cast Doomsday.
Cast cantrip #1 : Draw LED
Play LED
Cast cantrip #2, in response crack LED floating UUU : Draw Three Wishes
Cast Three Wishes, Exile Maniac, LED, Gitaxian Probe
Play LED, crack for UUU
Play Maniac
Play Gitaxian Probe, win.
TENDRILS PILE
Requirements : 2 cantrip
LED
TW
LED
LED
BW
Cast Doomsday (Storm 1)
Cast cantrip #1 : Draw LED (Storm 2)
Play LED (Storm 3)
Cast cantrip #2, in response crack LED floating UUU : Draw Three Wishes (Storm 4)
Cast Three Wishes, Exile LED, LED, Burning Wish (Storm 5)
Play both LED, crack for RRR and BBB (Storm 7)
Cast Burning Wish into Tendrils (Storm 9), win.
LEGACY DOOMSDAY MANIAC
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Doomsday
4 Burning Wish
2 Grim Tutor
4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
2 Cabal Ritual
1 Darkblast
1 Deep Analysis
1 Mental Note
1 Pact of Negation
1 Unearth
// 18 LANDS (19 with Shelldock Isle)
1 Shelldock Isle
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
2 Island
1 Swamp
//SIDEBOARD
3 Pyroblast
3 Flusterstorm
2 Wipe Away
2 Pithing Needle
1 Doomsday
1 Pyroclasm
1 Massacre
1 Void Snare
1 Time Spiral
UNEARTH PILE
Requirements : UB + 1 cantrip + 4HP
Mental Note
Maniac
Deep Analysis
Unearth
Doomsday
Cast Doomsday, Draw Mental Note
Cast Mental Note, mill Maniac, Deep Analysis and draw Unearth
Cast Unearth into Maniac
Flashback Deep Analysis, win.
DARKBLAST PILE
Requirements : multiple
Darkblast
Deep Analysis
Maniac
BLANK
Unearth
There is multiple way to use this pile, casting Darkblast only one time, or dredging to cast it twice, etc.
You can also use Deep Analysis to draw into Maniac and the BLANK card, or just dredging all the stuff going all-in one the Unearth plan.
SHELLDOCK PILE
Requirements : UB + 1 cantrip (optional but win you a turn to land Shelldock the same turn you cast Doomsday)
Advise : Have enough mana to eventually cast Maniac and Doomsday
Shelldock
Emrakul
Maniac
Unearth
Doomsday
Cast Doomsday, Draw Shelldock Isle
Play Shelldock Isle and hide Emrakul, pass the turn
Untap, draw (Maniac), cast Emrakul via Shelldock Isle
Untap (additional turn), draw (Unearth), attack with Emrakul, win.
Here it is safer to cast Maniac after the Annihilation trigger from Emrakul, even if you have Unearth and then Doomsday as backup.
MANIAC IN HAND
Requirements : UUB + 1 cantrip + 4HP
Brainstorm
Mental Note
Deep Analysis
Unearth
Doomsday
Cast Doomsday, Draw Brainstorm
Cast Brainstorm, draw Mental Note, Deep Analysis and Unearth. Put back Deep Analysis and Maniac
Cast Mental Note, mill Maniac, Deep Analysis and draw Doomsday
Cast Unearth into Maniac
Flashback Deep Analysis, win.
UNEARTH IN HAND
Requirements : UUB + 1 cantrip + 4HP
Mental Note
Maniac
Deep Analysis
Blank (usually Pact of Negation)
Doomsday
Cast Doomsday, Draw Mental Note
Cast Mental Note, mill Maniac, Deep Analysis and draw blank-card (usually Pact)
Cast Unearth into Maniac
Flashback Deep Analysis, win with Pact backup.
Not even considering price, grim tutor is not a good card in DDFT. It's slow, and loses life in a deck that needs to pay half your life to win. Playing preordains is just superior, as it lets you dig if you need to, but more importantly is a cantrip, so it's a virtual ritual post doomsday. Grim tutor could be good in a slow meta where you have in all the time in the world to set up, but legacy is too fast to play it in DDFT.
Yeah, sometimes the 3 life cost is pain, 2 Preordain are certainly better in this deck.
I will keep my Grim Tutor for the Meandeck version of Doomsday and for my ANT deck :)
I did test with Grim Tutor as a burning wish replacement when I was hard set on cutting red. I agree, it might be good in a meandeck version with no wishes and it's definitely good in ANT.Quote:
Originally Posted by kravkenov
Edit: My current list for anyone curious
// 60 Maindeck
// 7 Artifact
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
2 Lotus Petal
1 Chromatic Sphere
// 1 Creature
1 Laboratory Maniac
// 12 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
3 Silence
1 Rain of Filth
// 17 Land
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
1 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
// 23 Sorcery
4 Ponder
3 Doomsday
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
4 Preordain
3 Burning Wish
1 Act on Impulse
// 15 Sideboard
// 4 Creature
SB: 4 Monastery Mentor
// 4 Instant
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
// 1 Land
SB: 1 Karakas
// 6 Sorcery
SB: 1 Infernal Contract
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
So after a couple of weeks playing Doomsday Tendrils, what you think about the Sensei's Top ban ?
Is the Meandeck Doomsday more competitive than the classic Tendrils version ? At least it require less setup to Doomsday into a winning pile and the ability to choose from Maniac or Emrakul kill looks pretty solid to me. What do you think ?!
I still like something similar to the list I posted above. I've tried a whole host of configurations including Meandeck versions, and other versions with counter magic. I even tried a list with Shelldock Emrakul maindeck with shit like stifle. I still like the classic DDFT version the best, and FWIW I think the meandeck version you posted above misses out on one of the few things I like about that version in Force of Will. By cutting LEDs and not playing force, it seems like it's just a worse DDFT that's even more susceptible to hate.
The same player got 3rd at a 45-person tournament over the weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott
Changes to the main deck:
-1 Manamorphose
-2 Empty the Warrens
-1 Preordain
-1 Volcanic Island
+1 Edge of Autumn
+1 Fatal Push
+1 Void Snare
+1 Lotus Petal
+1 Horizon Canopy
What is this mad tech? I thought some of my ideas for DDFT have been a bit on the extreme side but hey, seems I am mostly normal.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott
I'd be intrigued to find out his number of storm wins vs Labman wins.
This list just made the top of a 33 man tournament.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15830&d=297154&f=LE
Wow. This deck was hard enough to play when it still had access to SDT. But now? Seriously impressive work.
It gives hope to players of niche decks everywhere. :D
They sure are salting our wounds. First they take STD to make our lives miserable.
Then they are tempting us with a new Doomsday Invocation. Damn you WotC!
http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoi...y-invocations/
[Yes I do know the invocations were decided months before the B&R announcement, but still a bitter taste.]
I've been playing the Edge of Autumn list that was posted earlier and I've been almost winning games. Here's the list:
1 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Island
1 Lake of the Dead
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
1 Fatal Push
1 Act on Impulse
3 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Doomsday
3 Duress
2 Edge of Autumn
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Void Snare
1 Chromatic Sphere
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
SB
1 Karakas
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Hope of Ghirapur
1 Echoing Truth
1 Fatal Push
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Doomsday
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Massacre
1 Tendrils of Agony
I'm going to make some changes to it after having played it for a month and seeing the difference between my local meta and the Japanese meta. I haven't been liking Hope of Ghirapur in the side. Autumn's Veil, Echoing Ruin, and Pulverize look nice. Autumn's Veil could be useful if your opponent is threatening a Brainstorm on your combo turn as it stops counterspells and most removal that could hit your Laboratory Maniac while being easier than Chromatic Sphere. Echoing Ruin and Pulverize both get around multiple chalices. If I put Pulverize in the side, I think I might swap Horizon Canopy for a second red dual, which would make it easier to get the red for Act on Impulse in piles with Autumn's Veil, where an LED would have to be cracked for green.
I also think Three Wishes is much better than Act on Impulse in a lot of situations. A Three Wishes in the main and an Act on Impulse in the side seems optimal.
Edit: Meltdown is just better than echoing ruin in most cases.
I've tried all of the odder choices from that deck and I can confidently say that they are odd for a reason. The one thing that stuck in my list was a single edge of autumn. I like it because it can make maniac piles cost 2 less life post DD which has been relevant for me and it also helps when making piles that play through lock pieces. Lake of the Dead was absolute trash for me most times that I drew it, and I tried to play it for a very long time, but it just isn't good enough. Here's my list for reference, it's similar enough to what most of the other DDFT players have been trying.
// 60 Maindeck
// 7 Artifact
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Lotus Petal
// 1 Creature
1 Laboratory Maniac
// 8 Instant
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
// 17 Land
2 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
2 Bloodstained Mire
// 27 Sorcery
4 Ponder
3 Doomsday
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Duress
4 Preordain
1 Act on Impulse
3 Burning Wish
1 Edge of Autumn
// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 2 Defense Grid
// 7 Instant
SB: 2 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 2 Fatal Push
// 6 Sorcery
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Doomsday
SB: 1 Telemin Performance
SB: 1 Act on Impulse
I'm in no way trying to shit talk the Japanese list, but like I said, a lot of those choices I can't agree with having tested that exact 75 as well as the individual cards extensively.
Edit: I should also add, I don't think you can play three wishes as the draw spell in that list, running things like lake of the dead pretty much lock you into AoI as it'll be too hard to produce UU with that mana base without LED.
If you are running either of the E3 cards (TW or AoI) I would advocate AoI even main. Keep a second AoI or a D4 (Cruel Bargain / Infernal Contract) as a wish target.Quote:
Originally Posted by ToadFlinger
Don't take too much stock in the Japanese list. The player has since admitted he wasn't sure what he was doing with the list and has since restructured it to be a tad more cohesive.
Lake is a strong card but not for the 4/5 colour variants.
There is a variant I am working on atm that does utilise Lake but it is much more swamp heavy enabling it whereas trying to balance U for cantrips, BBB /Swamp, Swamp for Lake / Mountains for say Pulverize is just awkward. The manabase for the deck is key in trying to balance colours yet still have some leniency to be able to run basics if possible.
For anyone interested in the old Piledoc by Foglio, I have generated a new one for the post SDT format.
To note this is designed as a learning tool, not a dictionary. You should not use this to try and just memorise piles but instead test them out.
The criteria I have tried to set down for the piles listed is generally minimum 7 storm (Where applicable) and maximum 5 mana required post DD.
The document is still being populated over time / when I can be bothered so please message me either on here or on the Stormboards to add your suggestions (No posting them here, it will just clog up the thread).
Also happy to receive constructive feedback :)
Hopefully this will be useful for those unsure as to how to pile sculpt or just starting off before entering an event too.
Document may be found HERE!
thanks for putting this together. it might be helpful to use an example with some pictures of cards for any players that are brand new to this kind of document.
Hi all,
I'm back playing M:tG lately, and I've been trying to catch up on what's been happening with this deck lately, especially after the Top ban. I noticed everyone has switched over to Act On Impulse as their pile-draw over Ideas Unbound. I wanted to ask about that, since I can see different situations where you'd want either one.
For example, consider this old SDT situation:
Board: SDT
Mana: BU
Hand: Dark Ritual + Cantrip + Doomsday
With this, you could go Dark Ritual > Doomsday, piling LED, Ideas Unbound, LED, LED, Wish. Cantrip into the LED, spin Top while cracking LED. You now have 3 blue mana and Ideas Unbound in hand. Ideas draws 2 LEDs and Top, flop everything, and Wish into Tendrils. Alternatively, you can pile LED, Ideas Unbound, LED, Probe, Lab Man. This can achieve a pretty similar result, beating Teeg and being vulnerable to removal.
The key mechanic is that the Top replacing itself allows you to double cantrip while triggering the subsequent LEDs in the pile. With that mechanic absent, AoI is how the LED mana is achieved, which is probably why it's such a popular pick. However, I notice there are some issues with using AoI:
For example, consider this single cantrip pile:
Mana: BU
Hand: Dark Ritual + Cantrip + Doomsday + LED
With this, you can accelerate into a pile of Draw-3, LED, LED, Probe, Wish. With a cantrip, cracking LED for red or blue, you can play out the pile. With IU, you can simply play out the pile, paying with mana for Probe, or any cantrip, and resolving the whole thing from as little as 2 initial life. With AoI, though, you need a minimum of 6 life, to have enough life to pay for Probe while resolving the Probe, or you have to make Wish the 4th card and lose a storm. Thus, AoI is mechanically necessary for a double cantrip pile, but imposes limitations on the single cantrip pile in terms of storm achieved or life needed.
Another irksome consideration of AoI is with the pass-the-turn Laboratory Maniac pile. The basic pile is Draw-3, LED, Chromatic Sphere, Probe, Lab Man. The cost of the pile is 2 + cost of the Draw-3, and provides a removal-proof OTK from nothing in hand. Thus, the consideration is how 2UU compares to 4R. Since most Doomsday manabases (should) have 2 Island/1 Swamp, this means you can hold a dual/Petal in your hand and make the Ideas Unbound pile Wasteland-proof against the Teeg decks. With Act On Impulse, the pile becomes more expensive (though Dark Ritual can provide a lot of that generic mana), and requires an off-color mana to start off.
I haven't sat down to look at how IU/AoI compare when it comes to things like double-Doomsday piles or Brainstorm piles, but I think the PTT and single-cantrip pile are relevant enough interactions to be thinking about. Has anyone considered running both, or have a decisive rationale for running one of them?
Lastly, I wanted to ask about manabases. Currently, I'm working with this:
2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
However, I was considering adding a Badlands. This would give me a third Mountain, enabling Pulverize. It would also let me fetch Underground Sea to cantrip turn 1, Badlands to Wish turn 2, and then I can lay a third land and naturally cast Doomsday. I'm not sure how great a second non-blue land would be, but I think a first Badlands has the most merit of any I'd be playing. I'm not sure if I can find room for an 18th land, but I'm on the fence about whether I'd want to cut the 9th fetch or the 3rd Underground Sea. Does anyone have any insights or opinions on Badlands, with or without the use of Pulverize?
Firstly most people have switched because now running 4 x BS, 4 x PN, 4 x GP and 4 x Pre you are more likely to have double cantrips rather than suitable mana out. The life loss scenario you mention is relevant but by the time that sort of life loss occurs you probably have more mana available than the very minimum. Some people have tried both however having two 'dead' ish cards in the deck can be troublesome for sure.
Personally I have been working on a two colour no-wish variant that eschews AoI for 1 x IU and 1 x IC main. The deck is much more designed to produce a lot of B mana and therefore wants the cheaper IU and the B IC for pile enabling. It also allows for double cantrip piles such as [LED, IU, LP, DR, ToA] though does require greater storm count pre-pile. It runs at least Conjurer's Bauble as additional cantrips that can also be used as the same stored draw as SDT was giving the 1UU pile of [IU, LED, CB, GP, LM] and allow other tricks such as storm looping (1:1 Mana:Storm benefit with no cards in deck) or to increase pile size.
If you decide to remain on the Wish version I would say stick to AoI as it does some solid work atm, especially in the face of Leovold and you can run two as you can replace the traditionally SB IC with a second AoI. You can also Double Doomsday off of it as the draw spell into the second pile can be stored in exile using it. With the UB version CB allows for the Double Doomsday-ing to occur.
First of all I will point out I consider 17 lands high so 18 is just crazy talk to me. I run 16 lands and 2 LP though one land is more of a Spell (Lake of the Dead). For Wish variants I think 15-16 lands and 3-4 LP is a good place to be. I agree you want a Badlands though should remove a Volc for it. I also think you could drop a Mire and up a Tarn unless you have a lot of likelihood of the new Spyglass being around in Stompy lists.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
Pulverise I am less sure on. By Force has been used a lot to great success but obviously if Pulverise has been doing the work then stick with it.
Hopefully that helps at least somewhat!
I suppose it makes more sense to answer these in reverse order. To clarify, I run 17 lands, and I didn't want Badlands to be an 18th. Compared to you, it sounds like you shifted a land out for a Petal. I can see why you might want a Badlands over Volcanic, as Lake of the Dead gives you an incentive to run more Swamps, but I was looking for a third red source, so if I went for something like Wish > Pulverize, I could pull another red source for a Wish/Act on Impulse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doishy
I'm not sure that Pulverize is the best choice, but it does seem like a distinctively different option given that it can cost zero mana, so you don't have to wait a turn after Wishing for it. I'm not sure how many slots to devote to artifact locks like Lands/Eldrazi, so I was thinking I'd want the Wish target to be the most decisive, to take game 1s and also reduce the burden on the sidedeck, as might then only need 0-2 Hurkyl's or red artifact sweepers. Just out of interest though, what is the bonus to playing By Force over Meltdown? As far as I can tell, By Force is better against some Trinisphere situations, but less good against multiple Chalices, which is the artifact held in common by a lot of lock piece decks. Since the second lock piece can be Thorn or Trinisphere, I figure it might be more effective across all scenarios to play Meltdown.
My main concern was about how AoI fits with pass-the-turn piles, but do all the blue cantrips really de-emphasize those plays that much? Part of the appeal of this deck, in my opinion, was that against other combo decks or BU(x) decks, you can run full attrition into a pass-the-turn pile that negates discard. For example, with careful land plays and cantrip use, you can use discard to snipe BU(x) deck's counters and slam a doomsday, effectively blanking their discard because you'll have lands for the mana and can simply topdeck into your win the next turn. Gambling against their topdecked counters seems way better than trying to work through Seize/Hymn eating away your spare cantrips or requiring you to discard those while you also have to, at some point, beat the counterspells. Since Grixis/4C are so popular, I figure this would be a legitimate concern, but I haven't tested enough to know how good/bad the matchups are.
That's why I'd be concerned about the Lab-Man-pass pile costing more and costing red, which comes off non-basic lands (though, with 3 red lands, I could more easily draw one naturally, which lets me conserve a red against non-hymn discard spells). It's also worth noting, though, that against Storm/Reanimator/SnS, your nonbasics wouldn't get challenged (and you can play AoI off Blood Moon anyway) and they have neither removal or damage to challenge a pile of AoI, LED, Probe, Probe, Lab Man, which wins the game for 2R anyway. I do like the idea of MB/SB AoI, it's just hard to let go of IU entirely, I'll know for sure as I test against the BUG/Grixis/4C lists.