All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

I ABSOLUTELY dont agree. The banning of Mental Misstep was much to fast. Same with the banning of Survival. The format didnt have the time to evolve.

And remember the reasons, why Mystical Tutor was banned?

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Yeah I still say Mystical Tutor was the right card banned for the wrong reasons. There were legit reasons to ban it at the time and of course with the foresight WOTC had to see miracles coming I think they figured it was better to pull the trigger while it was played as a 4x in the two best combo decks in the format instead of waiting for the format to adjust and then having to preemptively ban it when miracles were about to come out.

Survival I don't think was banned too soon. I was the top of the pile as far as people saying wait and see if the format can adjust but let's be real, the only adjustment was the Survival decks were getting stronger and stronger. I still think Vengevine could have just got the ax instead but I agree the deck had to go.

Mental Misstep was a mistake. Again I was one of the people saying let the format adjust but the only adjustment was more and more decks running 4x Misstep so it was time to let it go. I still say Enchantress was chronically underplayed during that period.

Snapcaster Mage would've put Mental Misstep on steroids.

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

Yeah I still say Mystical Tutor was the right card banned for the wrong reasons. There were legit reasons to ban it at the time and of course with the foresight WOTC had to see miracles coming I think they figured it was better to pull the trigger while it was played as a 4x in the two best combo decks in the format instead of waiting for the format to adjust and then having to preemptively ban it when miracles were about to come out.

Survival I don't think was banned too soon. I was the top of the pile as far as people saying wait and see if the format can adjust but let's be real, the only adjustment was the Survival decks were getting stronger and stronger. I still think Vengevine could have just got the ax instead but I agree the deck had to go.

Mental Misstep was a mistake. Again I was one of the people saying let the format adjust but the only adjustment was more and more decks running 4x Misstep so it was time to let it go. I still say Enchantress was chronically underplayed during that period.

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I dont know how strong MT would be in the current format, but back then it was unnecessary. And for Miracles, I dont see much of them anyway and there still is Personal Tutor

Survival was still evolving and it was flavor of the time, because it was fucking fun to play it. And decks didnt adjust to it, otherwise you would have seen more Pithing Needle, Leylines or Extirpate. And now we have RIP, DRS and Surgical Extraction

Considering how long it takes to unban a card (aka never), waiting another 6-12 months before a ban seems pretty legit to me. Besides WotC could always print a hoser in the following set.

Mental Misstep was kind of a mistake, because it was blue. But at the time it was banned lots of decks already started to drop it or put them into the SB. Im still sad, its banned because it allowed a really competitive meta, new card choices and was a good answer to the absurde amount of overpowered eternal CC1 spells (on the draw!). The bad thing, goblins was near unplayable back then, but now we have caverns.
Im still waiting for a fixed version.
Snapcaster wasnt printed that time and damn, that guy should be red, too. Another story...

No, I really dont think WotC/DCI makes a good job.

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

I dont know how strong MT would be in the current format, but back then it was unnecessary. And for Miracles, I dont see much of them anyway and there still is Personal Tutor

Survival was still evolving and it was flavor of the time, because it was fucking fun to play it. And decks didnt adjust to it, otherwise you would have seen more Pithing Needle, Leylines or Extirpate. And now we have RIP, DRS and Surgical Extraction

Considering how long it takes to unban a card (aka never), waiting another 6-12 months before a ban seems pretty legit to me. Besides WotC could always print a hoser in the following set.

Mental Misstep was kind of a mistake, because it was blue. But at the time it was banned lots of decks already started to drop it or put them into the SB. Im still sad, its banned because it allowed a really competitive meta, new card choices and was a good answer to the absurde amount of overpowered eternal CC1 spells (on the draw!). The bad thing, goblins was near unplayable back then, but now we have caverns.
Im still waiting for a fixed version.
Snapcaster wasnt printed that time and damn, that guy should be red, too. Another story...

No, I really dont think WotC/DCI makes a good job.

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I'm glad I don't live in a world where Mystical Tutor EOT for a 1x Terminus is a legit sideboard option for a combo deck, but maybe that's just me. There were legit reasons to ban MT back then anyways, I think letting every combo deck have 4x of a card that can get a wincon or the exact answer it needs and lets them run basically 1x of every silver bullet in the SB for 1 mana might be a little much.

Survival was given time to adjust, but it never happened. It never swept Europe like it did here, but it was starting to pick up steam right before it got banned.

Mental Misstep was a mistake because it wasn't blue so every deck from Control to Aggro ran 4x. There was very little reason to not run 4x Misstep between MD and side. I ran an ultra slow BG control deck for a while and still beat ANT easily because of 4x Misstep in the board. Even zoo ran 4x Misstep towards the end.

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Originally Posted by Humphrey

I dont know how strong MT would be in the current format, but back then it was unnecessary. And for Miracles, I dont see much of them anyway and there still is Personal Tutor

Survival was still evolving and it was flavor of the time, because it was fucking fun to play it. And decks didnt adjust to it, otherwise you would have seen more Pithing Needle, Leylines or Extirpate. And now we have RIP, DRS and Surgical Extraction

Considering how long it takes to unban a card (aka never), waiting another 6-12 months before a ban seems pretty legit to me. Besides WotC could always print a hoser in the following set.

Mental Misstep was kind of a mistake, because it was blue. But at the time it was banned lots of decks already started to drop it or put them into the SB. Im still sad, its banned because it allowed a really competitive meta, new card choices and was a good answer to the absurde amount of overpowered eternal CC1 spells (on the draw!). The bad thing, goblins was near unplayable back then, but now we have caverns.
Im still waiting for a fixed version.
Snapcaster wasnt printed that time and damn, that guy should be red, too. Another story...

No, I really dont think WotC/DCI makes a good job.

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Survival was a repeatable Tutor, Toolbox and combo engine in a single 2cc card in decks that contain creatures. I disliked it seeing go but don't ignore which crowd was the cloudest calling for a ban of both, Survival and Mental Misstep: Zoo and Goblin players whinning that their Vials/Lackeys/Nacatls can get countered and Survival being the Supreme creature deck with KotR/Vegevine ... I did not hear control or combo players crying over their Dark Rituals and Brainstorms.I suggest you dig up the threads to that topic back then.

I however agree, that peeple were too lazy, arrogant to adress SotF in their 75 by either P.Needle, Extirpate, Spell Snare or Qasali Pridemage ... none saw play in the SCG tourneys. They rather let Brad Nelson and Evan Erwin spread lies about the deck ("omg it kills turn 3!")

It makes totally sense to declare Standard-players, used to play 10+ turns, as experts to judge about a format they didn't even play before and a deck which is able to kill in half the time a standard deck might take, expecting an educated analysis of the Situation *facepalm*

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

I'm glad I don't live in a world where Mystical Tutor EOT for a 1x Terminus is a legit sideboard option for a combo deck, but maybe that's just me. There were legit reasons to ban MT back then anyways, I think letting every combo deck have 4x of a card that can get a wincon or the exact answer it needs and lets them run basically 1x of every silver bullet in the SB for 1 mana might be a little much.

Survival was given time to adjust, but it never happened. It never swept Europe like it did here, but it was starting to pick up steam right before it got banned.

Mental Misstep was a mistake because it wasn't blue so every deck from Control to Aggro ran 4x. There was very little reason to not run 4x Misstep between MD and side. I ran an ultra slow BG control deck for a while and still beat ANT easily because of 4x Misstep in the board. Even zoo ran 4x Misstep towards the end.

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First, Zoo overloaded on 1cc Drops to simply ignore Misstep rather than running it themselves outside their SB.

Don't try to explain to me my Euro-meta. The reason Survival wasn't as dominating here compared to the US is that the decks did faster adapt to the menace. Running 4 Spell Snare in Countertop was a standard in europe while the US still scooped to Survival with their Counterspells. Same with Pithing Needle taking out SDT and SotF as a SB option for midrange and Aggro.

Why should Combo play Mystical Tutor for Terminus rather than for Ad Nauseam? You could run Pyroclasm in your 75 and make it a 5-outer with 4 mysticals legal. Mystical for topping Miracles would be stupid good too. It would be a 4-off in every combo deck from storm to S&T to Reanimator. Getting rid of it was healthy for the format ... the reasoning back then was the Problem ... it was an insult to the Intelligence of the Community which is however rather fitting in some context, considering the lacking backlash to Tom laPilles glorious return.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

First, Zoo overloaded on 1cc Drops to simply ignore Misstep rather than running it themselves outside their SB.

Don't try to explain to me my Euro-meta. The reason Survival wasn't as dominating here compared to the US is that the decks did faster adapt to the menace. Running 4 Spell Snare in Countertop was a standard in europe while the US still scooped to Survival with their Counterspells. Same with Pithing Needle taking out SDT and SotF as a SB option for midrange and Aggro.

Why should Combo play Mystical Tutor for Terminus rather than for Ad Nauseam? You could run Pyroclasm in your 75 and make it a 5-outer with 4 mysticals legal. Mystical for topping Miracles would be stupid good too. It would be a 4-off in every combo deck from storm to S&T to Reanimator. Getting rid of it was healthy for the format ... the reasoning back then was the Problem ... it was an insult to the Intelligence of the Community which is however rather fitting in some context, considering the lacking backlash to Tom laPilles glorious return.

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1: There was 2 schools of thought on Misstep for Zoo. One ran Missteps the other didn't. The version that ran Misstep seemed to perform better IMO (but they both kind of sucked overall compared to other decks in the format at the time).

2: Yes Americans are stupid, no one here was running Spell Snare, oh that's why we weren't winning, God damn why didn't we think of that, everyone who plays Legacy in America must be retarded or something. /sarcasm
Seriously though I think a big part of it was the American meta was still on the tail end of the Merfolk dominance. A lot of people had yet to switch over so some of the decks that might have had some game vs. Survival were getting swept up early by Merfolk decks. CounterTop would have been a bottom tier choice to bring to an SCG event when Survival was in full swing. Still if I would have been the one making the choice Vengevine would have been the one to go.

3: We agree on Mystical.

I was on the Wagon of "Vengevine broke Survival? Then ban the damn vine and pay attention to future printings!" too, but realized that this would take WotC to actually THINK about their creature power creep. Fact is, that at some point, they would fuck it up again and we have the same dilemma once more. They took the save choice here from their perspective.

I, however would love to see Survival in a kind of Toolbox Maverick. Guess that's why they printed GSZ

Is the announcement tonight?

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Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7

Is the announcement tonight?

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Yup, 12 EST

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Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7

Is the announcement tonight?

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No, it's next week. The announcement is the Monday after the prerelease.

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Originally Posted by mini1337s

Yup, 12 EST

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Originally Posted by rooneg

No, it's next week. The announcement is the Monday after the prerelease.

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Well shit, now i'm confused. My facebook news feed is blowing up with B&R predictions so I think it is tonight

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Going forward, Banned and Restricted updates will by synchronized with set releases. For each set, starting with Gatecrash, the announcement will be the Monday after the Prerelease, and the effective date will be the same as the release date of the set.

There are several advantages to this. First, this means there is no longer a date you have to remember. Second, it is less disruptive to deck management. Most players find it is a good time to update their decks when a set releases. Finally, this answers odd questions as to whether a banning has taken place if the update date occurs in the middle of a tournament.

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From the September 2012 announcement.

No changes, no surprise.

Must suck to play Modern...

So it's the monday BEFORE the prerelease, not after

MindTwist am i cry.

Wanted Vise the most honestly tho'.

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Originally Posted by Samsunait

So it's the monday BEFORE the prerelease, not after

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Oops, my mistake.

As a Legacyplayer I like this changes.

As someone who owns a Moderndeck... lol.


Greetings

Another not-at-all wrong looking match at Atlanta this weekend. Leyline is a "fun" card.

I'm confused; what happened to Modern? The article I saw had only two bannings in Pauper.

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Originally Posted by bjholmes3

I'm confused; what happened to Modern? The article I saw had only two bannings in Pauper.

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GP Detroit was eaten alive by Jund. People here are not big fans of Jund.

Ah, so it's the lack of ban that's the problem, lol. Modern reminds me of Yugioh: one or two decks dominate the format for a few months, then get banned to high hell. Jund is like Dragon Rulers: it survived.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

GP Detroit was eaten alive by Jund. People here are not big fans of Jund.

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I think it's funny how Jund is making a comeback despite Bloodbraid elf being banned.

They should ban Tarmogoyf and DRS from the format for maximum rage quits.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

I think it's funny how Jund is making a comeback despite Bloodbraid elf being banned.

They should ban Tarmogoyf and DRS from the format for maximum rage quits.

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Tarmogoyf is far too efficient a threat for that format. There's a slew of cards that would be played, and decks that would be good enough, if only Tarmogoyf wasn't around to one-up all their threats.

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Originally Posted by evanmartyr

Tarmogoyf is far too efficient a threat for that format. There's a slew of cards that would be played, and decks that would be good enough, if only Tarmogoyf wasn't around to one-up all their threats.

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They did it for the kitty, why not the Goyf?

I wonder if WOTC fears losing support if they ban goyf, especially since they just reprinted him.

The hilarious part of what happened in Detroit is that the biggest targets to ban based on sheer numbers are Thoughtseize, Tarmogoyf, and Dark Confidant, which all recently have seen reprints to push the Modern Format. Deathrite Shaman got played more, but it's more of a symptom of the dominance of those other cards than an actual problem (re-gain life lost from Bob and T-Seize, shrink Tarmogoyf).

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Originally Posted by majikal

The hilarious part of what happened in Detroit is that the biggest targets to ban based on sheer numbers are Thoughtseize, Tarmogoyf, and Dark Confidant, which all recently have seen reprints to push the Modern Format. Deathrite Shaman got played more, but it's more of a symptom of the dominance of those other cards than an actual problem (re-gain life lost from Bob and T-Seize, shrink Tarmogoyf).

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Well, at some point WotC has to stop banning stuff out of fear of just driving people away. I wonder what deck(s) would dominate if Jund left?

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Originally Posted by majikal

The hilarious part of what happened in Detroit is that the biggest targets to ban based on sheer numbers are Thoughtseize, Tarmogoyf, and Dark Confidant, which all recently have seen reprints to push the Modern Format. Deathrite Shaman got played more, but it's more of a symptom of the dominance of those other cards than an actual problem (re-gain life lost from Bob and T-Seize, shrink Tarmogoyf).

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I wouldn't mind seeing them get banned in Modern so that Legacy players can acquire them more cheaply.

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Originally Posted by majikal

The hilarious part of what happened in Detroit is that the biggest targets to ban based on sheer numbers are Thoughtseize, Tarmogoyf, and Dark Confidant, which all recently have seen reprints to push the Modern Format. Deathrite Shaman got played more, but it's more of a symptom of the dominance of those other cards than an actual problem (re-gain life lost from Bob and T-Seize, shrink Tarmogoyf).

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People however are pointing to the fact that DRS allow for T2 liliana and lifegain, two things that are pushing the deck over the top. Were not for DRS i think Jund, Ajundi, Burundy and Burgundy wouldn't be as dominant. Iirc almost all of the undefeated decks D1 were Jund, and they're keeping all the tools for decent U-based control lists on the banned list because "counters are unfun", but getting grinded by AD, Liliana, Goyfs and whatsnot is a world of fun. The worst shit was the banning of Wild Nacatl, god forgive aggro has a tool to race Midrange. They only want midrange, and in turn PWs become obscene in a format that's all grindy midrange. I'm thinking they'll ban liliana honestly. Thoughtseize, DRS, Confidant and Goyfs all saw recent prints/reprints, while Liliana is already out of Standard.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

People however are pointing to the fact that DRS allow for T2 liliana and lifegain, two things that are pushing the deck over the top. Were not for DRS i think Jund, Ajundi, Burundy and Burgundy wouldn't be as dominant. Iirc almost all of the undefeated decks D1 were Jund, and they're keeping all the tools for decent U-based control lists on the banned list because "counters are unfun", but getting grinded by AD, Liliana, Goyfs and whatsnot is a world of fun. The worst shit was the banning of Wild Nacatl, god forgive aggro has a tool to race Midrange. They only want midrange, and in turn PWs become obscene in a format that's all grindy midrange. I'm thinking they'll ban liliana honestly. Thoughtseize, DRS, Confidant and Goyfs all saw recent prints/reprints, while Liliana is already out of Standard.

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What's the list of "unfun" things that WotC is checking off their list?

[] Counterspells
[] Land Destruction
[] Fast Combo decks
[] ???

From GP Detroit's coverage http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazin...et13/welcome#2

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Modern is a format alive with diversity.

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checks top8/16 for diversity, making a face like this :eyebrow: then also this :really: and then I figured he must be trolling :rolleyes:

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Day 2 alone featured thirty-seven different types of decks

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Whatever floats his boat..

If Modern is an example of diversity, then Legacy must be a Rainbow.

Of course, Vintage looks like mud.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

What's the list of "unfun" things that WotC is checking off their list?

[] Counterspells
[] Land Destruction
[] Fast Combo decks
[] ???

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[] Fast mana creatures
[] Cheap removal

WotC you need not to pay me you can take this for free :cool:

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

[] Cheap removal

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Well that can't be right, they haven't banned Lightning Bolt.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

What's the list of "unfun" things that WotC is checking off their list?

[] Counterspells
[] Land Destruction
[] Fast Combo decks
[] ???

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You forgot [] Random Discard.

[] Decks that don't require you to tap sideways
[] decks that get free things in play from Graveyard

Wizards has been promoting tactics over strategy for years now. Jund is the final form of this approach and (in my eyes; not only because of the recent GP results) the manifestation of everything I dislike about this way of playing the game.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

[] Fast mana creatures
[] Cheap removal

WotC you need not to pay me you can take this for free :cool:

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Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar

You forgot [] Random Discard.

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

[] Decks that don't require you to tap sideways
[] decks that get free things in play from Graveyard

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Updated my "Things Wizards of the Coast hates" .txt


[] Counterspells
[] Land Destruction
[] Fast Combo decks
[] Fast mana creatures
[] Cheap removal
[] Random Discard
[] Decks that don't require you to tap sideways
[] decks that get free things in play from Graveyard

http://cdn.meme.li/i/on4gp.jpg

Liliana of the Veil
Thoughtseize
Tarmogoyf
Deathrite Shaman
Dark Confidant

5 cards that rule Modern and your wallet ... what a joke of a format: nearly as expensive as Legacy, nearly as "diverse" as Vintage....