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I think this guy is better than he looks.
He can close out games pretty quick once he lands, is faster than WRP (actually kind of useful in Combo Matchups->SnT bring in this guy, EoT bounce with Symbiote, play again)
I've had countless games against Miracles with them being at 1-5 Life & me not being able to finish the game...
This guy seems like he can drain them out easily, just get in for a few points in the meantime.
As a standalone weapon yes - packmaster is really good, but if you can play and bounce the new guy instead of making a bunch of wolves (which also needs some amount of mana) and waiting for attacksteps/turns i can also see to gain advantage with the new one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Careve
Sadly it isn't a rare/mythic so it missed some more raw power (lifeleech would be nice^^), but we gain some synergy with ws, cradle, glimpse, heritage etc. dodge Cage! (Priest/Mindcensor/Moat/Bridge etc.) and some countermagic (Pierce/Flusterstorm) which can work against NO if your opponent also runs enough removal and some wastelands.
It would also be nice to kill an Show&Tell player with the ability, but sadly the don't even care that much about our Rec.Sage thanks to Instant-Stack-Kill...
EDIT:
Yes...he also dodges CB and if Terminus hit, you maybe get another turn to draw/tutor him and drain more (and he has some attack power compared to other elves)Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexeezay
Edit: Never mind, read wrong.
Wut? If your opponent S&Ts an OmniScience and you put in this guy your opponent laughs at you. Also: Isn't keeping creatures in play against Miracles the core problem? Isn't a lifedrain based in creatures in play ergo totally pointless?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexeezay
This creature will win me many matches in the future as a 1-of GSZ target. That is all.
http://imgur.com/tgOs0P1.jpg
Here is the full image of the card. 3 CMC! I like it, I will certainly try it out for a while in my elves list.
Wow only 3 mana, perfect! After the GP i will be back with Elves :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by zeagle
Yep, he costs 1BG and is a 3/2 body.
Also spoiled was Gnarlroot Trapper. Elf that costs B, 1/1 body, can tap to either add G mana (only to cast Elf creature spells) or can tap to give an attacking Elf deathtouch till EoT.
3 cmc makes me so much more optimistic
I'd consider Entreat to be the core problem - if they don't have the inevitable blowout from Entreat, slowly grinding them out is very much an option.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
3 mana = sweet!Quote:
Originally Posted by zeagle
This one seems spicey
http://mythicspoiler.com/ori/cards/dwynenselite.jpg
CMC 3?!!! This makes me so happy. I'm definitely gonna rock that guy now. Also, now that Elf tribal is a thing I might even catch myself playing Standard in addition to CoCo Elves in Modern. #ElvesInAllFormats
Loads of new Elves to play with. My I present Elvish Ringleader:
http://mythicspoiler.com/ori/cards/sylvanmessenger.jpg
That guy is actually a reprint. But still, seems good in Standard!
I was happy about the 4 mana version of this guy....but LOL 3??? collected company just got interesting for me.
and that 2 drop?! perfect gsz target when all you want is more bodies (pumps up hoof, good for chump blocking, makes heritage tap for 3)
http://i.imgur.com/5xgB7vYl.jpg
Party time! Woomp Woomp. Here comes the drop!
Imma celebrate by throwing mana in the air like I just don't care! :g::g::g::g::g::g::g::g::g::g:
All these Elves might make me want to play Standard for the first time in a long while. Someone slap me already.
So so so much better at 3cc. A good one-of in the sideboard.
I thought about that, too, QBChaz. Also, playing Elves in every format sounds awesome, danyul, but I don't want to spend money on Cavern of Souls or Collected Company for Modern, and as fun as Standard is sometimes, I have to fight the urge by telling myself it's a money pit.
Dwynen's Elite seems pretty good with Heritage Druid, but the only 2cmc elf we have in our deck is Visionary and something tells me that isn't coming out for it...
I do like Shaman of the Pack as a 1-of, though, and will certainly test it.
Local Legacy tournament tomorrow for Dual Lands (First place gets 4 Underground Seas). Will be rocking a Elves ( MD Scooze instead of my 2nd Rec. Sage because there are a lot of storm/reanimator/goyf decks and SB Ruric instead of Progenitus). Will see how it goes.
Seems like you maindeck at least one, possibly with more in the board since it seems really strong in matches where you can't reliably resolve GSZ. this card should reasonably kill after 4 ETB triggers, and getting 4 ETB triggers seems like it happens pretty regularly with this deck in grindy matchups. I like it.
Plus you get reach against Miracles, which is very important.
Ever drawn a hand with 4 elves and a Zenith? Shaman of the Pack makes that hand a kill on turn 4 without getting to 9 mana. You will of course, have to use judgement as to whether or not you want visionary, but there are matchups (g1 vs combo) that all you care about it speed.
Why at side? I can totally see that i cut Packmaster for the new girl which means i keep 3 NO, 1 Hoof, 1 Ruric (for as long as we have DTT...) , 1 Sage and 1 Ooze (or maybe add a 2nd Shaman of the Pack here etc. )Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_of_Rivendell
You can have a low Zenith target with is able to win the Game (sometimes instant) which feels very good.
I think Shaman of the Pack is the kind of thing you run in multiples. 3 seems like a good place to start, IMO. You want those landing naturally.
I think that unless your primary kill is shaman and you just wholesale cut NO/hoof/thar then you can only really afford to play one.
I'm just gonna say it, is everyone here forgetting Wirewood Symbiote with this Shaman?
Assuredly noQuote:
Originally Posted by Brentane
I don't think this is wrong, but I think it's actually a slightly different deck. I think Shaman potentially opens up the ability to have two different builds of the elf deck. This new one is probably a little less like a combo deck and a little more about grinding out value, better at winning over multiple turns instead of all in one shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
To be clear, I'm not saying they'll be very different decks. I'm saying like ANT to TES or something - they'll have the same core strategy and most of the same tools, but they're going to take a slightly different route to get there.
I will try both directions, NO + 1 Backup Shaman of the Pack and cut of NO (and Ruric) and 3 Shaman +1 Teeg Main (more turn 2 protection against Storm sounds nice)Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
As someone that has played Elves in Modern I can say, it's ok. It is very straight forward though. The amount of choices you have is quite a lot smaller than you would think.Quote:
Originally Posted by MegaManR
On this new elf, oh boy. I will say it's tempting to pull the old girl out of her semi retirement for some fun.
I think the most interesting thing about a Shaman-oriented build is that it opens up spell slots and Teeg. I'd not necessarily replace the NOs with Shamans straight, but replace them with discard and slot Shamans in some other way. That way we get discard+Teeg while still having a reasonably fast win condition that can overwhelm fair decks and put some pressure on combo. That is, I feel the main carrot is reducing the tensions within the deck from all the spells and Teeg kind of hating each other into a configuration that screws itself over less, but has less raw power.Quote:
Originally Posted by MD.Ghost
I feel these are cosmetic changes. The problem for Elves is keeping creatures in play and this Elf as well as NO and the whole deck works solely on that base.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snickelfritz
Participated in the SCG Baltimore Premiere IQ today with a standard no frills list.
Round 1: Miracles
G1: Mulligan down to six, and keep a hand with an even split between spells and lands. Then drew into lands. He plays Terminus on my attack, then follows it up with Entreat. Game.
G2: Much more of a grind. I felt pretty good about this game at the start. He Forced a Choke when he was tapped out, and then I overextended into a Terminus. Entreat mops it up.
Match: 0-2
Record: 0-1
Round 2: Imperial Painter
G1: He uses Sol lands to power out his turn three combo. I was set to unleash on my turn.
G2: He sets everything up by turn two, but I'm on the play and Hoof seals it for me.
G3: He opens with Sol land, exile Shaman: Magus of the Moon. I kept a solid hand that could have gone bonkers on turn two, but it didn't have a basic Forest, and neither did my next seven draws.
Match: 1-2
Record: 0-2
Round 3: Shardless Sultai/BUG
G1: I mull to four. He lands a Jace, two Agents, and a Goyf. He swings for the fences after clearing my hand. I drew untapped drew Natural Order and Hoof took it home.
G2: I miss several triggers. He plays out Night of Souls' Betrayal then Grafdigger's Cage. I lose to a large Goyf.
G3: I land a turn two Scavenging Ooze with Cradle. He has no answer for it and goes down.
Match: 2-1
Record: 1-2
Round 4: Miracles
G1: He confirms my suspicion of Miracles with a turn three Terminus. Thankfully I didn't overextend and reload. Only then to see two more Terminus and three Swords. He lands Jace, then follows it up with Counter-Top on a clear board.
G2: Another game two grindfest. I have him on the ropes countering Sylvan Library and a Heritage Druid. Unfortunately I never get to three mana and can't play out Choke. Eventually he realizes Quirion Ranger is a beast and needs to go. Then fateseals me away.
Match: 0-2
Record: 1-3
Round 5: Deadguy Ale
G1: I overextend into a main deck Zealous Persecution. Jitte and Sword of Fire and Ice keep me off the board.
G2: He Swords my Deathrite Shaman, I in turn Decayed his. This was a bad idea as Containment Priest shut me out from the Natural Order and Green Sun's Zenith in my hand. I never recover.
Match: 0-2
Record: 1-4
Round 6: 12 Post/Turbo Elderazi
G1: I mull to four. It seriously was not a good day for hands. Still I manage to combo him out the turn after he wasted a Crop Rotation. He laments he should have waited to pull out Glacial Cavern.
G2: After smacking him around for several turns, he properly rotates into Spaghetti Monster mana and casts it. He follows up with Primeval Titan for good measure. Still I had a chance to win if only their were two more spells in the yard. After his attack I was able to keep a Deathrite Shaman and enough mana and untaps to machine gun him, but we had only Decay and Rotation in the graveyard.
G3: He lands a turn three Trinisphere, I land a turn four NO into lethal Hoof.
Match: 2-1
Record: 2-4
Round 7: Delver brew
G1: No resistance into a turn three Hoof.
G2: A little more resistance, but the back up aggro plan works.
Match 2-0
Record: 3-4
Round 8: No Show
If it was one of the two ladies I think it was, I would have faced either Infect or Storm. Glad to have just walked away.
It was not what I wanted out of the day, but it was my first time in over a year playing in a tournament. The goldfishing and playing against my 4C Loam certainly helped me find certain play lines, but I still have a habit of overextending. Sometimes it's because I want to set up my next turn, and others is to go on the aggro plan. Either way, it cost me more than once today. I was expecting a little more in the bad match-up area, but really only Miracles was a bad draw. I certainly didn't have love in the opening hand department. I mulled at least once each match. Two of the hands I shipped were me being too aggressive looking for a quality opening. The rest were either land heavy or a single Cradle/Arbor.
Shaman seems like a nice addition.
The 2 mana, you get 2 1/1 vanillas not so much. If that were a thing, we would have played Wirewood Hivemaster.
It's a 2/2 and you get a 1/1 if you control another Elf. Extra bodies are relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
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1/1, 2/2, big whoop. It doesn't make mana, it doesn't untap stuff, it doesn't draw cards, it doesn't clear graveyards and it doesn't wreck enchantments/artifacts. It just sits there. With its buddy.
The thing with Hivemaster is that it needs you to play stuff after it. Enablers are good if they are cheap and reward you for going nuts on something afterwards (Glimpse, High Tide), or are splashy enough lategame plays that reward you for having gone nuts before (Natural Order, Tendrils of Agony, Shaman of the Pack, Packmaster, Emrakul). In the context of this deck, Hivemaster is a card that is expensive and not splashy in itself, but requires you to durdle afterwards. The new Elf has less overt potential for brokenness, but has better flow - it rewards you for having done things before and is more of a presence on the board, while still being good with Symbiote.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
EDIT: Not saying that means the new card is playable. But it doesn't have certain game flow issues that Hivemaster has, so I wouldn't evaluate it as "Hivemaster doesn't see play, so..."
The flipside is that with a Hivemaster you can also loop a 1 mana creature and it allows you to create tokens whilst keeping the BFF-team up and running. The other guy forces you to choose between either drawing cards with Visionary or creating tokens, it doesn't allow you to do both.
Very true. Like I said, the new card is weaker but has better flow. Hivemaster has the potential to be broken but flows much worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I'm going to play both cards as 1-ofs in the first tournament I get to play with them. We'll see how they do (the shaman is a no-brainer include IMO).
I really like the double-dood elf for builds which rely on Heritage Druid, but he creates less adavantage these days than Visionary or Sage if paired with Symbiote. Just to be clear: we have more than enough value plays with etb trigger available and do not need the guy unless WotC prints a second coming of Glimpse which would flip the decks focus from "tutoring" to "drawing" once more. Elves was a NO deck in the early 2000's and switched to Glimpse and back over the last decade.
As amazing the Origins set is in the quantity of Elves, I dunno if anyone except the Legendary one is worth testing as the lifedrain Elf isn't really targeting the decks current weakness