I 100% agree with the delver analysis but I think top will always be better than guile(barring enchantress shenanigans).Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
You are very astute. I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
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I 100% agree with the delver analysis but I think top will always be better than guile(barring enchantress shenanigans).Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
You are very astute. I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
TTX also brings up a good point, that the Lands matchup certainly isn't favourable. Ruination also handles that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
The question never was which of the two is better. Top easily wins that, no need to discuss. The point of having both Guiles and Tops on board was to approach the consistency the blue cantrip shell gives decks as much as possible, nothing more. Yes, Delver does undercosted creatures and free counters. So what? Shardless BUG uses the shell to do CA creatures and some free counters, TES/ANT/Reanimator/Tin Fins uses the shell to blow people out of the water, Aluren/Food Chain uses it to assemble CA & combo. The point is that all of these decks carry a relatively low number of real threats and all manage to get by.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
With Guile + Top as Brainstorm + Ponder analog, the ramp we play and with GSZ to top it off we have the tools to be as consistent as anything playing the blue cantrip shell while having access to all the toys we know and love. I guess I went wrong when I compared it to anyDelver.dec, since that wasn't the sentiment I was trying to convey.
Playing Mirri's Guile on top of 4 SDTs is terrible. These cards don't cantrip and 3-4 is the most a deck can use. "Play Guile, Upkeep see Top, 2nd Guile, Bayou", that is what you are in for. Also the entire concept of trying to mimick any setup (in this case Ponder / Brainstorm) with inferior cards is stupid.
Thank you for your contribution. It was very helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
Would you be so kind as to explain how you came to your conclusion? I thought we had moved past the point of just calling eachothers ideas stupid without any rhyme or reason. Please try to use the terms "consistency" and "opportunity cost", since consistency is the subject of this discussion and opportunity cost is what's involved when trying these constructions. Don't forget to take into consideration the 16-18 shuffling effects we run and how we can adjust our playstyle accordingly.
Disagreeing with an idea is perfectly fine, but put some more effort into it than just calling it stupid.
I think Oath of Nissa is just better with top then guile. You will get 3 freash new cards and cantripde. Oath is the green ponder.
It also tucks away the Top we aim to find more consistently, so it doesn't help us there.
I do even agree with Tao, but even before that though process my main concern would be how to play a 1 mana permanent (that can't be put on top of our deck) with deed, which in my opinion is one of the best cards in the deck. Before Echelon gets triggered, this is an honest concern I am not trolling. Top and truths/scrying are not enough? We have not space for fluff in the deck, when I have a top in play all I want to draw is gas, not an enchantment that will eventually die to my own deed.
I know you're not trolling :smile:, and to be honest I'm not entirely sure on the idea myself. I just want to give it a fair go.
I adressed the various cases for Guile 2 pages back and have considered Deed. What I arrived at is that if you consider Guile an almost-Ponder and if Ponder as a 1-shot thing is a valid Legacy card, then as long as you manage to use Guile 1/2 times before blowing up Deed, you've essentially used it as a valid Legacy card and therefor should be fine with blowing it up (since you don't mind Ponder going to your graveyard).
Now consider that Guile preferably comes down T1, you probably get to trigger it twice (upkeep of turns 2 and 3) before you cast Deed and probably 3 times (upkeep of turn 4) before the first time you blow up a Deed.
Is that something I'd want to invest a mana and a card in? Maybe. It does have some awesome synergy with fetchlands (or a small GSZ) in the meantime (that might actually help you find the Deed that blows Guile up eventually).
It might also be a call to switch from Deed to Toxic Deluge, or to more spotremoval or beefy creatures. Deed is a great card, but it's not one we must play.
This is a logical fallacy right? You can say it doesn't find you tops, but you can't say it makes finding tops harder because it ships them to the bottom. You have more chance of top not being in the top 3 cards of your deck than being in them, so if anything it digs you closer to your tops if you want to think about it like that (which I wouldn't)Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
It's similar to the problems new players have with self milling.
Also guile not replacing itself is a reaallllyyy big deal. Drawing or opening with multiples is a nightmare. I guess these are reasons I won't be spending time testing it. But if you take the time to do so and come back with positive results then I'd be more inclined too :)
This again comes down to card selection and card draw. Top provides selection and limited draw, Guile only provides selection. Truths and Scrying provide strictly draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Top, because it can do both and dodge Deed, is superior to Guile, even if you consider the mana investment. Guile is only somewhat playable if you're Enchantress, or have nothing else. If you're concerned about it being a mana sink, Sylvan is, hand to God, the fucking tits. I would play more, but no room. Even with the Deed possibility, it's worth it. Truths is also excellent at getting back into the mid-gain after fighting through counters or discard, or just to pull ahead.
My ideal package is: 3 Top, 2 Sylvan, 3 Truths, 1 Scrying. Overkill? Sure, but with a 60 card limitation, there's no way this fits, so I'm content with 3 Top, 1 Sylvan, 2-3 Truths.I really do feel like 3 Top/3 Truths/1 Sylvan has a good mix of what you need, without nothing you don't.
Well, if you have several weeks to wait for it I might be able to. Next time I get to play I'll make sure to proxy this mess up. Guile is the speediest card of the entire bunch. There might be some merit in that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
Oh, on Oath of Nissa - I think we can agree it will never give you a Top, right? It simply can't. So as a tool specifically to find/get Top, it's useless.
You sir have a big package. I'm going to go have some fun with that, brew up a list that incorporates it in its entirety together with some means to (re)gain a good amount of life.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Rhinos, Spikes, and Angels, oh my?
Currently in hour 7 of 9 of studying. It's 12:30 AM.
-Matt
Currently enjoying a poop?Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
IF you wanted to match, or even best, blue style consistency (though you will never be able to unmulligan without the extremely skill intensive foundation of the legacy format (I hope you can feel the seething sarcasm) that is brainstorm) then I would start with 4 Oath, 3-4 top, 3-4 Traverse the Uvenwald and 4Gsun (or no Gsun I don't know).
Since oath helps you hit delirium and you can add planeswalkers to your deck and creatures like shriekmaw to supplement removal spells to tide you over till your sweepers deluge/deed fix everything for you and your walkers/rhinos can finish the game.
You crazy, beautiful person. I think you just earned Bobmans' spot as resident evil genius.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
The problem with Guile is that
1. it is worse than Top: Compared to SDT a) it dies to Deed, b) an extra copy in your starting hand is a straight mulligan and c) if you topdeck it you have to wait for a full turn to use it.
2. it gets worse if you already play Top: that is because the stuff you see in the top3 cards gets worse, you Top into Guile or Guile into Top, and you never want a second copy of this effect. Ponder and Brainstorm do not have this problem because they replace themselves.
About Punishing Nic Fit, the first card that I think should be maxed out on is Liliana. Great against Miracles, and the Edict is good against Eldrazi. The card I would cut is Abrupt Decay. It is bad against all problem matchups (aggressive Eldrazi, big Eldrazi and everything that tries to cheat Marit Lage or Griselbrand into play) and against Miracles we can try to rely on Deed or Rec Sage. I would try to push the own game plan more with something like 4 Lili, 4 Fire, 4 Deed, 4 Top, 3-4 Huntmaster.
Thank you for putting some effort into this my good sir, I really appreciate it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
I'm not sure if you'd never want a second copy of that effect. Putting GSZ/fetchland on top with the Guile trigger and casting/cracking it before activating Top (entertaining the possibility one might run into a second shuffle effect) has some obvious value.
Also, it's exactly because you run into multiples that you should have less problems with blowing one up with a Deed - you just drop your second copy after blowing up Deed.
On the general aversion of Deed blowing up ones own stuff: To win a battle one has to accept that there will be casualties. This should never, ever be an argument not to play a card. What gets me most is the sheer randomness with which the argument gets used. Sylvan Safekeeper? No problem. Deathrite Shaman? But Deed!
I'll just have to proxy it up when I get the chance :smile:.
But isn't that a straight raw card disadvantage? That's bad right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
You are 100% right, it is. That's one of the reasons why I'm still not sure on the idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
Oath and Traverse can both fetch Shriekmaw, it helps get delirium and it's fantastic manasink/card advantage card that hits nearly all creatures (especially eldrazi) except DRS, angler, strix and TNN (though it does attack past it!) and it synergises like crazy with Meren...
I'm Gnna brew a GBx list that abuses these cards
Someone's totally making my day...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
Try to add in a Fierce Empath and Karador, Ghost Chieftain (Karador works with Shriekmaw too). Quite possibly Sakura-Tribe Elder and Qasali Pridemage. A couple of Phyrexian Towers, Meren, Siege Rhinos, Dryad Arbor, Eternal Witness to loop stuff like PtE/AD/Pernicious Deed/Painful Truths.
In the meantime I'll try and see if I can fit matts' package in a list.
Edit: The matt package list:
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Tireless Tracker
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Painful Truths
2 Sylvan Library
1 Skeletal Scrying
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Phyrexian Tower
Lol cannot make it fit at all. 4 Oath 4 Traverse 4 GSun 4 Therapy is already 16 cards. Shriekmaw and Qasali can take place of Path/Decay, but you still want deed, and then thats like 18-20 non creature, non land, non planeswalker cards which gives you a 3% chance of your oaths missing... no good. If only it fetched enchantments instead of, or as well as planeswalkers, how different this world would be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
So you could do something like this, but it looks baaaaad and runs no instants or deeds..
4 Oath
4 Traverse
4 Gsun
4 Therapy
4 Vet
1 DRS
1 STE
1 Qasali
4 Shriekmaw
1 Tracker
1 Ewit
1 Meren
2 Rhino
1 Sigarda
2 Liliana
1 Garruk
1 Elspeth
1 Ob Nixilis
1 Vraska
1 Sorin
and 20 lands. but yeeaaa looks awful.
OMG what an abomination, lol.
Kudos for trying though.
This is actually interesting to read. No sarcasm. I am in the "we can do better than guile" camp. Matt's justification makes more sense than anything I'd write. However, I'm in a different mentality about the ideal draw setup. I like the concept of Oath people are talking about and I'll be the odd man out: I like the concept of Gitaxian Probe (helps you with information, assists Therapy/TS, cantrips, is never a dead draw). Space is of course the ultimate hurdle to surpass.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I'd love to fool around with a list where this was the consistency package: (4 GSZ), 4 Gitaxian Probe, 2-3 top, 2 truth. Sylvan also being a possibility because...boobies. I'd consider supplementing probe with 1-2 maindeck thought seize or going colorless for Thought Knot Seer. There's something in the "lets shred hands" department that works so well for Nic Fit. The last time I mentioned G-Probe someone commented about how it makes therapy better. I'd like to up my therapy/discard game while simultaneously cantripping and smoothing out variance. Probe isn't going to suddenly take away clunky hands. Not am I implying this. However, there is a lot of untapped potential in abusing the information it gives. A majority of the time, we have life to spare. And I play so much stronger if/when I have hand-knowledge. Idk how to make it all fit. Because space is an issue for everyone's list.
I don't get it, please do explain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
On Gitaxian Probe - yes, it makes Therapy better, but it also opens you up to throwing away 2 life for nothing and can be a dead card in the late game when low on life, especially when you also run both Truths and Thoughtseizes.
I've considered it before, but haven't tested it yet.
@Echelon: Good point about lifeloss. But that may be the risk worth taking. The explanation you're looking for btw (below)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Quote:
Sylvan also being a possibility because...boobies.
Tits.
finished 2-3 in a league, definitely depressing.
I beat eldrazi and bug delver. lost to Sneak n Show(4 mentor in sb), Burn and Red Goblins.
SnS: had t2 snt on the play for griselbrand and I couldn't find karakas or removal. g2 he had me dead on board but accidentally activated griselbrand at 7 life. g3 I love to the third mentor.
Burn: he opened with 2 lands and only drew spells both games, also kept in PoP like a baddie.
Red Goblins: Both games he had t1 vial and drew gas every draw step while I flooded out both times and didn't see a single deed.
Feels bad when your opponents run hot, over you.
Sb feels like 15 sb for combo is too many. I will reevaluate where I need to be and go from there.
Oh man I understand the depression, that loss vs burn feels bad I'm sure about it. Heck we are the rhino x4.deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
The goblin mu in my experience only depends on how many ring leaders they manage to draw. Deed and rhino devastate them otherwise.
Those 2 mu are winnable, you only got unlucky, it happens! (I bet those SotL were bad right?)
goblins just kept drawing matrons off the top and the player agreed they were insane draws. He got to get a krenko and make like 8 tokens and then the following turn ripped the 4th matron to get a chieftain and swing for like 30Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
SotL were just very underwhelming. They are a nuisance but they don't stop your opp from doing a ton, they can still just kill you whereas canonist makes them answer her.
For combo, you need the girls (no, not another chesticle reference): Canonist, Thalia, C. Priest. Years of experience point to them doing enough disruption when paired with matchup specific options like TS, Duress, Teeg, white Leyline, Surgical, Needle, Revoker. Canonist remains my #1 option because limiting combo decks to 1 spell per turn is backbreaking. Thalia is the second strongest, but I've lost games with her on the table. Sometimes that Thalia tax isn't enough (especially since we do not run Thalia-Wasteland as a dedicated line of play). Priest is more for sneak/show, dredge, and reanimator.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
TL; DR: use female hatebears backed by 1-2 anti-combo spells to beat combo.
I have a lot of experience with the Goblin matchup. The Nr. 1 key card is Cabal Therapy. Snack their Matrons and Ringleaders. Deed is also very important of course.
Explorer is really dangerous without Therapy because Goblins can use the Mana very well.
In Modern I've been playing RUG Delver lately using Traverse. It's pretty slow to turn on but the card is very good if you can enable it fast enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
Edit: More thoughts
GBw is still probably the way to go with Traverse because you can use Tidehollow Sculler, it gives information for Therapy (important since you can't flashback it as much) and it's two types when it dies. Courser is also pretty good alongside Deed. The big problem would be getting instants.
On the subject of Probe, why not just use Inquisition of Kozilek instead? Discard is better than card draw since it helps against combo, it doesn't cost 2 life, and it still gives information. The problem is in finding room, in order to add discard you either have to remove the CA engine or the finishers.
The logic is that Probe cantrips and potentially costs 0 mana, leading to very solid lines of play (as well as the home-run opener of being on the play -> probe -> therapy). Any other type of discard is always going to be static discard throughout the game, which depreciates in value over the course of the game. Topdeck probe is at worst "2 life: get the next card", but IoK or another discard spell sucks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Again, I'm not sure how to fit it all in. Gitaxian is a card that effectively thins your list to 56 cards.
I get the logic and the appeal, I just don't think it works here. Probe isn't a card we want because we want cards that do things. Delver doesn't even run Probe just because of the cantrip, they run it because it's a free spell to flip Delver, there are several cantrips they avoid because they aren't instants and sorceries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
I do disagree with the 56 card logic too, it's more like you're getting 1 more card drawn by turn 4. So instead of going 10 cards deep out of 60 cards you're going 11 deep. This has a bigger effect earlier in the game but a lesser effect later. Seeing 11 vs 10 is huge but seeing 26 instead of 24 is much less valuable so in a sense cantripping also loses value as the game goes long, and our deck goes long. That's why we need recurring advantage so much, we're not fast enough to take advantage of 1 shot effects.
Whether it's Thoughtseize or IoK or Probe though I don't know where the room would come from. I don't know about you, but I'm really enjoying my 20 creature list and would ideally like to run even more but there's a hard limit to creatures in this deck. Between 4 Top/GSZ/Therapy and 21 lands there's a theoretical maximum of 25 creatures and that's only if you give up all your good removal.
Actually, on the creature count argument I want to touch on Oath of Nissa. It needs 37 hits, with 21 lands that means you need a minimum of 16 creatures/pw's to consider it, and that's for 95% accuracy. If you want better, and if you want to hit business rather than lands you need to run more.
Edit: Has anyone ever actually tried Tidehollow Sculler? I realize it's not green but it's a form of discard (just as tutorable as a Thoughtseize really), it has power, and it gives us knowledge on our opponents hand. It might be easier to find room for a 2/2 than for a spell. For example I've been finding QPM to be my 61st lately, maybe cutting that could work.
sculler is not where we want to be when we are a deed deck. IoK is not where we want to be, if anything Thoughtseize would be the first card I go to after 4 therapies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
it does not make you 56 cards, you are putting in 4 AIR cards that cost you 2 life, so 56 cards and 12 starting life by your count. This is not a probe style deck and there is a cost to playing 4 probes in a U-less deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
Warping the deck to include traverse and/or oath would be something you start from the foundation up. for instance, should you even be playing vet/therapy anymore? Is it not better in a maverick shell? Maverick is dead?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
My issue with sculler is that it dies to actual everything including our own deeds. Traverse seems like it belongs elsewhere because we can't get delirium reliably enough.
I think Sculler is fine as a sideboard piece against Combo, since most of the time, Deeds are dead there anyway. I'm just not sure Sculler is better than playing true hatebears and 1-CMC discard, since I'm always a fan of turn 1, take something, turn 2, drop a dude that stops you and then the race begins.
However, I would run Sculler right now in Degas or Deadguy Ale, either in main or board.
Realistically, then I'd run something like:
3 Thoughtseize
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Ruination
2 Slaughter Games
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons/Control Walker
Ruination being not quite as good as Tsunami against all the icky Miracles players, but insane for Lands/Shardless/Jund/Eldrazi. This board is obviously weaker then to SnT rather than AnT, but I've found that matchup to be basically pretty darn bad, so fuck it.
-Matt
Very possible, but the decks we want Sculler in we usually don't want Deed so it seems like it might be an easy sideboard swap in games 2 and 3 for an edge on decks like Storm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
I agree, Traverse is very different, I think it's a Legacy viable card but this isn't the deck for it. For one, GSZ and Therapy both actively work against it because neither puts a sorcery into your GY. Oath is a little different but for the most part I agree, I'm not really interested in one shot manipulation effects unless I can get some board presence out of them too.Quote:
Warping the deck to include traverse and/or oath would be something you start from the foundation up. for instance, should you even be playing vet/therapy anymore? Is it not better in a maverick shell? Maverick is dead?
This will probably get lost in the high velocity with which we are burning threw pages but i figured id share my progress so far. Ive been conducting my own ground up rebuild using miracles and shardless as the viable control deck models to follow and have yet to test anything but here are my notes and scribbles you can largely ignore the sideboard its just a starting point for when i start testing i apologise the formating didnt paste well:
Miracles control shell:
5-6.5 finisher:
2-3 instakill
3-4.4 slow death
3 non creature wincons
2-3.5 creature based wincons
18 manipulation:
10 card advantage
18 filter
7 permanent based
11 one shot
25 disruption:
23-25 creature answers
14 non creature answer
13 spell based combo
0 graveyard
7 permanent based
15 one shot
Shardless control shell:
10-11 finisher:
1 instakill
9-10 slow death
1 non creature
9-10 creature
16 manipulation:
16 card advantage
5 filter
1 permanent based
15 one shot
26 disrutpion:
18 creature
18 non creature
17 spell based combo
4 graveyard
10 permanent based
16 one shot
Nicfit miracles/shardless model list:
4 zenith
1 arbor
4 explorer
1 ste
1 qpm
1 witness
1 sigarda
3 top
2 intent
3 leyline void
2 helm
4 therapy
1 ts
3 decay
2 lilly
1 deed
1 pulse
2 e bridge
1 trinishpere
1 garruk relentless
2 bayou
1 scrub
2 savannah
2 forest
3 swamp
1 plains
1 karakas
1 phyrexian tower
4 verdant catacombs
4 windswept heath
29 disruption(therapy=8):
20 creature
19 non creature
20 spell based combo
3 graveyard
14 permanent based
20 one shot
7@0 cmc (fb therapy/leyline)
5@1 cmc
0@2 cmc
3@3 cmc
3@4 cmc
13 manipulation(4vet=2):
8 card advantage
13 selection
7 hard tutor
5 permanent based
7 one shot
9 finisher:
3 non creature based
6 creature
10 ramp:
8@1 cmc
5@2 cmc
4@3 cmc
Sb
2 path
1 leyline of the void
1 deed
1 deluge
2 e plaque
1 ts
1 hymm
1 grip
1 lilly
1 sorin
1 decay
2 needle
I feel like a lot of ground is gained vs storm, sns, dredge, reanimator, turbo eldrazi, eldrazi aggro and lands.
Dnt and burn look rough on paper and delver in general may loose some percentage points.