All B/R update speculation.

All I hear about the metagame not adapting to Show and Tell is completely bogus. The metagame has ALREADY adapted to Show and Tell - Most players are already playing either it or RUG Delver to beat it.

People didn't complain about Maverick getting 7/8 spots because Maverick really is easy to metagame for/adapt to. People just had to start running better and more creature hate (Forked Bolt in RUG Delver,) or run things faster than it (Belcher). Maverick doesn't do anything special or broken - It just toolboxes really well.

It also really surprises me how people continue to think there's only one Show and Tell deck in existence. There's four, and Maverick can't do shit against one of them (Hive Mind), can do little against another (Dream Halls is messed with slightly by Thalia, but only for a turn or two), has to have the right answer to beat the third (Sneaky Show is beatable depending on their threat), and has to do the same and hope they don't have 2-3 threats to beat the fourth (Hypergenesis).

I also haven't actually heard much real constructive criticism, in this thread or the previously mentioned "Adapting" thread, that changes much we didn't already know. For all the people who keep saying the tools are there, the tools really are pretty limited.

But you're arguing about one deck that has a bad match-up vs. the archetype.

But Taco, RUG was doing well before all the hype over SNT with Grisel, SNT Hivemind has done nothing since last years cry fest, and RUG isn't the only deck that beats SNT. It's not like you either play RUG, Sneak, or lose.

Maverick consistently putting 4 players into the Top 8 in many events, and taking 7 out of 8 places in one event, are real tournament results. Maverick has done more format domination than Survival Vengevine did.

People finally get tired of losing to G/W Aggro and decide to start playing Combo, and all of a sudden it's time to ban a combo enabler? SNT isn't putting up any dominating numbers right now, and RUG would still be putting the same amount of players in the Top 8 regardless (there's plenty of tournament data for the last 6 months+ to back that up).

However, you've been advocating for combo enabler bans for years now Taco, so I know it's impossible for us to come to an agreement, and that's fine. You don't like Spiral Tides and Show and Tell's, and "insert next new combo enabler here." I'm not saying I like those cards either, I just don't think they should get banhammered. I'll just leave it at that.

Then again, the blue-shell-1-card-combo-involving-extra-card-never-on-the-stack is historically an archetype that gets cropped every few years.

No loss for me either way, SnT was poorly designed to begin with and wizards has painted themselves into a corner with the 1-turn-to-find-ridiculously-narrow-answer-or-die fatties.

I'm still waiting for a printing of a card that Patrick Chapin suggested long time ago. Brainstorm is a fun card, but other colors should get something that would be almost as good. StP/Lightning Bolt are nice, but green and black are left alone. Then he suggested a black card which would be something like "Target player/opponent discards as many cards as he drew this turn". Instant of course.

Would make them think twice™ before brainstorming.

This may be a useless post because of the janky nature of the card, but I'll put it out there anyways:

Angel's Grace

It has been discussed as one of the most narrow ways to combat broken combo decks (such as Sneaky Show, TES, ANT, etc.) I bring it up because if we are ever pushed to actually need a narrow answer like Angel's Grace, it becomes really easy to put it into anything using Ad Nauseam: because it allows you to draw your entire deck in one turn, essentially GUARANTEEING a win.

I'm curious what other folks think about Angel's Grace as a way to adjust to the metagame.

Too narrow? Or does it just need something broken like Ad Nauseam so it isn't useless in your maindeck?

(Disclaimer: I don't advocate banning anything right now...Show and Tell isn't warping the metagame too much, even with Griselbrand. Just my opinion...)

Show and Tell has been legal in Legacy for ages. You have been able to put Progenitus onto the battlefield with it for years. I remember that one didn't simply win games when the opponent had Progenitus on the field. Emrakul and Griselbrand aren't faster than Progenitus and have less built-in protection, but they come with additional effects. You can argue that they are more powerful or less powerful than Progenitus, but in any case, the difference it makes is very close to zero.

Why are people complaining about Show and Tell now? It's not dramatically more powerful than before. It's not suddenly showing up in huge numbers, it's just finally gaining the attention it always had deserved. It's still not dominating tournaments. Countering it with hate from sideboard is almost as easy as countering Dredge.

If any currently legal card deserves to get banned, it is Green Sun's Zenith (I'm not saying it should get the banhammer, but it's the only extremely powerful card I can think of that I wouldn't be sad to never see again in Legacy).

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Originally Posted by Awaclus

Show and Tell has been legal in Legacy for ages. You have been able to put Progenitus onto the battlefield with it for years. I remember that one didn't simply win games when the opponent had Progenitus on the field. Emrakul and Griselbrand aren't faster than Progenitus and have less built-in protection, but they come with additional effects. You can argue that they are more powerful or less powerful than Progenitus, but in any case, the difference it makes is very close to zero.

Why are people complaining about Show and Tell now? It's not dramatically more powerful than before. It's not suddenly showing up in huge numbers, it's just finally gaining the attention it always had deserved. It's still not dominating tournaments. Countering it with hate from sideboard is almost as easy as countering Dredge.

If any currently legal card deserves to get banned, it is Green Sun's Zenith (I'm not saying it should get the banhammer, but it's the only extremely powerful card I can think of that I wouldn't be sad to never see again in Legacy).

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Everything in this post is wrong.

Griselbrand is indeed more powerful than Progenitus. Play test some against/with the old Sneak and Show and the new Sneak and Show if you don't believe me.

Show and Tell is more powerful now and has potential to get more in the future.

Green Sun's Zenith does not need to be banned. Green finally got some kind of card manipulation and you want it gone?!? Green Sun's Zenith does nothing broken and makes green as a color competitive.

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Originally Posted by Infinitium

Then again, the blue-shell-1-card-combo-involving-extra-card-never-on-the-stack is historically an archetype that gets cropped every few years.

No loss for me either way, SnT was poorly designed to begin with and wizards has painted themselves into a corner with the 1-turn-to-find-ridiculously-narrow-answer-or-die fatties.

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That's a good post with good arguments.

.. and I'm not advocating the banning of Show and tell (at least for now not.. let's wait and see).

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Originally Posted by joemauer

Everything in this post is wrong.

Griselbrand is indeed more powerful than Progenitus. Play test some against/with the old Sneak and Show and the new Sneak and Show if you don't believe me.

Show and Tell is more powerful now and has potential to get more in the future.

Green Sun's Zenith does not need to be banned. Green finally got some kind of card manipulation and you want it gone?!? Green Sun's Zenith does nothing broken and makes green as a color competitive.

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Someone struck a nerve, lol. Green Sun's Zenith is ridiculously powerful. If bsz did the same thing except for a sorcery instead of a creature people would be crying for bans. These green/x creatures are just as if not more powerful than some sorceries.

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Originally Posted by rxavage

Someone struck a nerve, lol. Green Sun's Zenith is ridiculously powerful. If bsz did the same thing except for a sorcery instead of a creature people would be crying for bans. These green/x creatures are just as if not more powerful than some sorceries.

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No. Absolutely no.

The ONLY tool to interact with a sorcery is a counterspell, that is, only one color. On the other hand every color have tools to interact with a creature.

You'll know it's the end of Legacy when the top deck looks like the top deck from Modern.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Maverick consistently putting 4 players into the Top 8 in many events, and taking 7 out of 8 places in one event, are real tournament results. Maverick has done more format domination than Survival Vengevine did.

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- This. If were are going by the logic of what to ban based on performance, something from Maverick should have been banned. (like the broken GSZ card, lol)

I have never been able to understand these calls for banning. My favorite card is Serra Angel, since I opened one in my first pack of revised. Yes I would have more fun casting it, should I call for banning of everything till it is good again and I can have "fun" playing it.

There is no reason to think that there should ever be more than 3 or 4 types of tier one decks. They will always be a strongest card in the format. But really it is sad when I think certain cards will never be played with again in a format I love. I love the choices Legacy gives me, even if those choices may not be the best for winning at any given time. If Brainstorm, Show and Tell, go what is next. All of these cards can be fought. I understand that at any given time not all strategies are viable, but that isn't a reason for banning cards. It is sort of like Dr. Jones always calling for the banning of FoW. WHen has FoW ever one a game? It's the card it protects that actually wins the game.

Brainstorm is a great card and allows a player to actually outplay their opponent on skill, which is actually really nice. It also helps take random variance out by smoothing draws and preventing land issues from unintentionally deciding games. These are good things for an environment. Sometimes I think people only care about winning and forget how much fun Magic can be when you have to actually think, try, and test ideas to win in certain situations.

I'm sorry Serra Angel is no longer good, but I love the fact that I have so many choices of cards to play with every week. That has to be worth something.

In a side note, try building decks without fetches anymore, fucking really hard and it totally changes mana bases. I had forgotten what it was like pre 2001. But again I honestly think these all make Magic better.

Seth

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Originally Posted by Zinch

No. Absolutely no.

The ONLY tool to interact with a sorcery is a counterspell, that is, only one color. On the other hand every color have tools to interact with a creature.

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Every colour has a way to disrupt every other colour. Why shouldn't every other colour have a repeatable tutor to find the answer to its problems?





Many years ago I traded revised duals for serras and seraphs. I still love those cards and wish they were playable.

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Originally Posted by sroncor1

I have never been able to understand these calls for banning. My favorite card is Serra Angel, since I opened one in my first pack of revised. Yes I would have more fun casting it, should I call for banning of everything till it is good again and I can have "fun" playing it.

There is no reason to think that there should ever be more than 3 or 4 types of tier one decks. They will always be a strongest card in the format. But really it is sad when I think certain cards will never be played with again in a format I love. I love the choices Legacy gives me, even if those choices may not be the best for winning at any given time. If Brainstorm, Show and Tell, go what is next. All of these cards can be fought. I understand that at any given time not all strategies are viable, but that isn't a reason for banning cards. It is sort of like Dr. Jones always calling for the banning of FoW. WHen has FoW ever one a game? It's the card it protects that actually wins the game.

Brainstorm is a great card and allows a player to actually outplay their opponent on skill, which is actually really nice. It also helps take random variance out by smoothing draws and preventing land issues from unintentionally deciding games. These are good things for an environment. Sometimes I think people only care about winning and forget how much fun Magic can be when you have to actually think, try, and test ideas to win in certain situations.

I'm sorry Serra Angel is no longer good, but I love the fact that I have so many choices of cards to play with every week. That has to be worth something.

In a side note, try building decks without fetches anymore, fucking really hard and it totally changes mana bases. I had forgotten what it was like pre 2001. But again I honestly think these all make Magic better.

Seth

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This is the same fallacy that Hanni exhibits. You try to deflect by talking about Serra Angel, but your argument is really about brainstorm. That is your (and zillions of others) pet card.

I wish you'd all see that complaining about a new card that pushes a ton of other strategies/cards out the window is exactly the same as complaining against a ban on your favorite cards/strategies.

If the DCI bans a card that forces you to play other cards you really don't like or WOTC creates a broken interaction, it's really all the same. You play Legacy with certain expectations and rules and when someone drastically changes those expectations and rules you have a right to speak out about it.

Just to clarify I don't advocate banning brainstorm.

I do advocate banning Show And Tell.

If you go the adapting to snt/gb thread on this forum, you will see how truly limited options there are against this deck. With those limited options, if people want to be competitive, they are figuring out they can either take up RUG, or perhaps a UW control deck with humility. There really aren't that many answers. We are trying to adapt, but it seems like the only way to adapt is to play decks that interact on the stack (blue w/ brainstorm.) That is what I mean by pushing other strategies out.

Fallacy? lol

There's no fallacy. If the DCI decided to ban, let's say Delver, on this next B&R... I'd also quit. You obviously missed the point I was making regarding banning.

It's possible to adapt to a strong strategy. It is not possible to play with banned cards. Once a card is banned, it's gone for good. Maybe, just maybe, it will come off the banned list in 5+ years... but don't get your hopes up. If a card is seriously degenerate, format warping, and dominating Legacy, I'm all for the ban. I've yet to see anything remotely indicating any of those factors for either Show and Tell or Brainstorm.

(FYI, Brainstorm isn't why RUG is doing well.)

I really do feel bad for all of you who are having such a tough time beating Show and Tell decks. Mind if I ask what deck(s) you're getting your asses beat with? That might shed some light on the matter.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Fallacy? lol

There's no fallacy. If the DCI decided to ban, let's say Delver, on this next B&R... I'd also quit. You obviously missed the point I was making regarding banning.

It's possible to adapt to a strong strategy. It is not possible to play with banned cards. Once a card is banned, it's gone for good. Maybe, just maybe, it will come off the banned list in 5+ years... but don't get your hopes up. If a card is seriously degenerate, format warping, and dominating Legacy, I'm all for the ban. I've yet to see anything remotely indicating any of those factors for either Show and Tell or Brainstorm.

(FYI, Brainstorm isn't why RUG is doing well.)

I really do feel bad for all of you who are having such a tough time beating Show and Tell decks. Mind if I ask what deck(s) you're getting your asses beat with? That might shed some light on the matter.

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Your smugness only helps to highlight the problem. You've said yourself that you can beat SNT decks. But all of the decks you've built to beat SNT decks have brainstorm and several other cards that interact with the stack. Mind telling us of a deck you've built that can beat SNT that uses any color BUT blue?

Actually, I think Junk decks have a far better matchup against Show and Tell decks than general blue decks do, but why should that even matter? What you are complaining about right now is blues ability to answer non-interactive combo decks with countermagic, not about Brainstorm. This is not some new fucking concept. Do you think G/W Aggro decks stood a chance against Storm Tendrils before GSZ? Hint: they didn't. Why should your aggro decks without disruption like discard or countermagic suddenly be able to beat combo decks? Do you understand how this format works?

You still didn't answer my question about what decks you're getting your ass beat with. And smugness? What the hell does that have anything to do with anything?

You want a quick protip on improving your combo matchups with aggro decks? (In this case, let's use G/W Maverick as an example) - Splash a third color.

I'm pretty sure that both Rock and Bant have a good RUG matchup, too.

I don't think you've played against any SNT decks with anything other than blue. Leyline of sanctity comes in and they can still win on turn 2.

SNT is not a combo deck. SNT is acceleration. It's like the blue metalworker.