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Another thing about the Burn matchup is that Energy Field just crushes them, even if you don't have a Rest in Peace along with it. Burn doesn't run Wasteland or anything that puts your permanents into the graveyard, especially in a deck that doesn't run much in the way of creatures.
How is Blood Moon against 12-post?
I fail to see how Dread of Night is superior to Engineered Plague. Both are definitely much better than Sulfur Elemental because you can tutor them via Enlightened Tutor and because they don't die to conventional removal or sweepers. Plague is very strong against Goblins and Elves while hosing the white creatures that we actually care about. Against Maverick, Plague on Humans will do the exact same thing as Dread of Night except that it gets rid of Nobles instead of Mindcensor (if they have them). Aside from DnT where it doesn't kill Flickerwisp and Mindcensor, Plague has much wider applications over a broader spectrum of matchups. You can bring it in against Merfolk, name Druid against Enchantress, keep Snapcaster, Bob, and Clique down against Deathblade. Plague, unlike Dread, doesn't turn your angels into 3/3s either and won't prevent you from getting tokens from Elspeth.
I have taken a look at Oarsman's list and stream for a good hour and I find myself disagreeing with a lot of his decisions and card choices.
On the topic of splashing Red as well as Black, I find it very possible to accomplish. The splashes are ever so slight that a pair of duals is all you need to support REB and/or TS, Plague, and Thief. Playing 2 splashes also opens up EE@4. I remain skeptical about the necessity of red as a splash color though.
What is it about REB that is worth the 3rd color? I have never liked that card against RUG to begin with. I agree that it is very good right now against SnT and may become crucial in Jace wars with the M14 rule. When red is mostly found in my dual lands, I tend not to bring in hate from the splash color against decks playing Wasteland/Stifle. When REB becomes reduced to being used as a removal, I find it very weak because it is limited to blue permanents and most of them where the REBs are relevant to the matchup, aren't best removed (Snapcaster, Clique, Jace, Counterbalance). For what REB accomplishes for us, the good ol' Counterspell or a pair of Thoughtseize would be more relevant to more matchups and get the job done just as well. Control mirrors tend not to rush their key spells and tap out so the lower cost of a hard counter isn't the most relevant, and reaching topdeck mode is a rare thing unless the game is over or we have the necessary tools in place to avoid drawing discard spells. Let's not forget the importance of hand information too. What I am trying to say here is that I don't feel like splashing red solely for 2-3 REB/Pyro is worth it for this particular archetype.
@Jutin,
Energy Field is only a temporary solution without RiP because you cannot allow any card to hit your GY. That includes instants, sorceries, fetches, discard phase. All you can do really is top and make land drops until you choose to break the Field, which may or may not be enough to win.
This is basically what I've found. Even Vortex isn't that big an issue unless landed early. The danger of Burn is them being able to unload several spells in one big blowout sort of turn where you just don't have the mana to contend with them all. Get Counterbalance, fetch basics, and don't tap out when you don't have to. Energy Field or Leyline of Sanctity is also nearly game over for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Treefolk Master
Very good, and if done early enough then I wouldn't expect them to come back from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
REB has been great against RUG as far as I've seen. It is a removal for Delver (their only real threat after a RIP is on the field) and it is a hard counter for all of their disruption. Unless they just have a massively pressuring board state, there is no reason you should have to walk into Stifle, Daze, or even Spell Pierce. Like sdematt and others have said, just spend the first several turns doing nothing but making land drops. On the play, I'd roll out a t1 Top, but on the draw, I'd wait to play around Daze/Pierce/Stifle every time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
Like you said, it's good against Show and Tell. It has a fair amount of overlap with Spell Pierce, but I'm biased (with reason) about that. Thoughtseize is a great card against combo, but I'd hesitate to bring it in many other places with this deck.
Jace and Jace-decks is another strong point for REB. REB hits most of the relevant spells (Jace, Counterbalance, Clique/Venser, and Ancestral). Not to mention that REB plays better into our late-game plan than Thoughtseize, which is better utilized in a more aggressive deck that cares less about a bad topdeck later.
I top-8'd a local tournament with UWr Miracles (same tournament that oarsman was at, who also top-8'd) and REB did some serious work. I went against 2x Reanimator and 3x RUG, siding in the REBs against Reanimator. Went 2-0 against Reanimator and 2-1 against RUG. REBs did some serious work in the Reanimator match-up. Against RUG, I didn't feel like the REBs were worth siding it, but I could be wrong here. I'd expect REBs to be a lot of help against other Jace mirrors too and I'm satisfied with the red splash/REBs (this was the first tournament that I actually had Volcanic Islands). I also saw Joe win a game by REB'ing a threat right before extra turns ended in a control match-up.
One card that I really didn't get to use was Blood Moon. It should be great against BUG/Jund-esque decks, but I never faced them and I never really had an opportunity to use the Moon.
Not sure how the black splash would work out, but that's my two cents on red splashes/REB.
REB hits D. Sphere, Notion Thief, etc. in the possible UWb UWr mirror match. I definitely think Red has the leg up in the mirror and in other blue matchups. I think the black has better game against other parts of the format too. It'll likely come down to personal preference, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
-Matt
It depends on what else you are packing. If you aren't running RIP, then you might feel better with more removal/sweepers. If you are running Spell Pierce or have Flusterstorm to bring in, then you might find those more useful. Flusterstorm is much better at winning counter wars, but doesn't have the upside of shooting a Delver.Quote:
Originally Posted by SageShadows
Blood Moon is fairly hit and miss. I've lost and stalemated games with it on the field (mostly due to them topdecking basics or having a Deathrite or pressure already on the field). When it is good, it is godly, but unless things really line up for you, it's far from an I-Win against those decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by SageShadows
A lot always comes down to personal preference and don't forget meta. Notion Thief is amazing against BUG (a horrible MU btw...), but isn't that great elsewhere. Vindicate is hot, but doesn't help against Show and Tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I think one of the biggest points in Red's favor is mana-stability. The Black splash almost always requires more dedication. UWr is fine fetching basics until the very moment (usually mid-late game) when they need to REB something. UWb has to fetch :b: within the first few turns to maximize Thoughtseize. Also, unlike most of the Red splash, not being able to cast your Black spells at instant speed adds further strain to your mana when potentially facing Wastelands.
1. black or red splash
Yes, I agree, it's definitely meta-dependent. I would like to stress that black's strength is removal. If you would like to play black discard against combos (show and tell), I would argue that extra Flusterstorm and/or REB are simply superior for those match-ups alone. If you insist on using black for discard, I wonder why you're not playing Esper Stoneblade?
Now, you guys probably respond with: Miracle has 7~8 removal spells. In my opinion, enchantment creature removal such as E.P. and DoN are still better. You force decks to deal with these enchantments while they're holding back their Dark Confidant/Geist. With M14 rules, Vindicate on Karakas/Jace is very, very valuable, a lot better than O-Ring/DS, which is bound to get destroyed at some point.
2. mirror
come on..., how many people actually play Miracle per local tournament across United States?
3. blood moon
even with tutor, yes, I admit resolving blood moon can be a blow-out in certain match-up. However, just how frequent do stars align to make it happen? Does it happen often enough to warrant a MD spot? Perhaps it's best to put it in SB?
4. burn
people seem to believe that Miracle will always have correct answers in time, to stabilize itself. Yes, in that case, you win. The beauty of burn deck is its mono-color consistency and high threat density. Burn is a mono-color deck while Miracle runs 3. You could easily have Tundra in your opening 7 then it'll get wasted and the game might just go wrong for Miracle from there, or you could blow out Burn with Turn 1 top turn 2 CB. It's not as simple as it sounds, otherwise Magic would not be as interesting.
4/11 people who played at our store on Thursday :(Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
As long as you didn't keep a mono land mono entreat hand, your cards will be able to interact with them. Even if you don't just lock them out of the game with Countertop, you can still counter their spells the old fashioned way. A timely Spell Pierce and Counterspell gives you several turns to find business. They usually land at least 1 creature per game, so removal is still live. Swording your own guy buys a ton of time. If they play several creatures (Guide/Lavamancer/Vexing Devil), Terminus wins the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
We are not a 3 colour deck. We are a 2 colour deck with 2 duals for a slight splash, usually post board. Find basics and you've automatically blanked they're price of progress. If you find yourself with a Tundra in your opening, 1R for 2 damage is quite crappy.
Burn does not play Wasteland. Even if they did, if they use a land drop to kill your dual early on, that's pretty good.
This is all assuming you're not playing Energy Field and/or Leyline Post board. If you are, its not even a challenge.
You have the words "interesting" and "beauty" regarding Mono Red Burn. Your argument is inherently flawed.
Is English your native language? Do you understand the concept of context?Quote:
Originally Posted by The Treefolk Master
"You could easily have Tundra in your opening 7 then it'll get wasted and the game might just go wrong for Miracle from there, or you could blow out Burn with Turn 1 top turn 2 CB. It's not as simple as it sounds, otherwise Magic would not be as interesting." Interesting here is an adjective to describe the probabilistic nature of Magic.
"The beauty of burn deck is its mono-color consistency and high threat density." Again, your understanding of Mathematics is seriously lacking. The probability of Miracle getting mana-screwed is much higher than any mono-color deck. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to observe that. Describing the mono-color consistency of any deck as a beauty or a sale point might be a novel idea to you.
The only inherently flaw here is the evidence of your failure in your education.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Sorry to still be picking on you, but I think you often don't know what you're talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
You're complaining? I wish other people still played Counterbalance at our store. Went from 5-8 people to just me in the last year or so. I love the mirror, GBx deck less so. :/Quote:
Originally Posted by thecrav
Actually, English it not my native language. I therefore prize myself on my ability to understand sarcasm.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Agreed. Usually it's just sauce and me duking it out, but there is a third who shows up now and again. T1 Top baby, e'ry day, any day. Can't stop. Won't stop.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by The Treefolk Master
I played in my first Legacy event over the weekend and ended the day with an amazing 1-4 record :laugh: I felt that the deck ran well but my own poor play and inexperience cost me a lot throughout the day. I really need to practice more before the next event. I made a tournament report on my blog here:
http://captainforgetfulness.blogspot.ie/
Unfortunately I forgot my pen and paper so my notes on each match aren't very detailed, but there's still plenty to read. Plus the odd gamestate where I won a game by milling with Helm of Obedience. The day was a real learning experience though and showed me that I have a looooong way to go before I can even call myself competent at Miracles.
Twndomn, don't be a twat. We can still discuss this like civilized people, even with large differences of opinion. Insulting educational background, if that is the case, is something that person can't necessarily control anyways. Don't commit logical fallacies, let your argument have merit on its own instead of chipping away at your own position.
-Matt
Still trying to figure this one out.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Nilla Pac
Here's a solid resource, btw.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/
And also, this.
The Red splash is just a splash. Unfortunately, the Black "splash" forces you to actually be much closer to a true three colored deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Treefolk Master
That's the website I learned them from. Hooray to the internet!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
-Matt
I was running a very similar deck in 2010 and since quit playing for school. Apart from having to look up 1/3 of the new cards i see mentioned, it's cool to see this deck in the DtB section and i've enjoyed catching up on how it has evolved from Hanni's original CounterTop Walker idea to this. Except I'm lost as to what "this" has become. I read the first 30-odd pages, then started scanning forward for changes in tech/new cycles of cards added that I have no clue about/etc. I get to the last few pages and apart from some talk on punishing fire all i see is people calling each other names. Would someone care to throw up some brief refresher of why this deck is where it is at, or a link to the post that would answer this?
Thanks.