[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

4x Delta
3x Tarn
2x Mire
2x USea
1x Volc
1x Badlands
1x Trop
1x Bayou

I'm fearless.

I dislike Gemstone: you can't fetch it so the fact that it gives any color is often irrelevant as the land sits somewhere in your library. But I haven't tested it.

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Originally Posted by phazonmuant

Damn. So what was that about TES having a worse manabase?

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

TES is a worse deck in the first place.

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Hilarious. You present a manabase with Badlands and Bayou which won't even help you to work towards a win with cantrips, have not tested it properly before, but comment it being superior to Rainbow lands?

How is TES a bad deck in the face of disability to cantrip/t.hold into a win with Bayou/Badlands?

I'm curious how you can sling so many bold phrases without any reasoning or arguments to support a wacky manabase (like suddenly jump off the "ANT has a more resistant manabase than TES" boat and "announce that Basics and such are overrated")?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Hilarious. You present a manabase with Badlands and Bayou which won't even help you to work towards a win with cantrips, have not tested it properly before, but comment it being superior to Rainbow lands?

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You're right, Swamp is better for cantrips. Also, you may tap it to either play Xantid Swarm or pay the :r: in PiF cost.
I played ANT nigh exclusively for about eighteen months and only few weeks ago switched back to RUG. I don't remember the last time basics helped me in a significant way.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

How is TES a bad deck in the face of disability to cantrip/t.hold into a win with Bayou/Badlands?

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TES is worse deck because it plays Burning Wish and very few shuffle effects for BS; it has nothing to do with rainbow lands.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I'm curious how you can sling so many bold phrases without any reasoning or arguments to support a wacky manabase (like suddenly jump off the "ANT has a more resistant manabase than TES" boat and "announce that Basics and such are overrated")?

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I don't need to jump out of the boat, as I never sit in it. Both TES and ANT have abysmal manabases.

Also, feel free to add as many basics as you wish, I don't care.

EDIT: Btw, I'm not sure from where comes your certainty that I didn't test this manabase, but let me reassure you that I don't even need to test it. It happens that I just follow whatever Sloshthedark does, because he was always right about anything he did (double PiF main, LDV, his newest fashion is zero basics), while all the sourcers just grinned and held concilia about right number of Chain of Vapors.

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

You're right, Swamp is better for cantrips. Also, you may tap it to either play Xantid Swarm or pay the :r: in PiF cost.
I played ANT nigh exclusively for about eighteen months and only few weeks ago switched back to RUG. I don't remember the last time basics helped me in a significant way.

i could swear Basic Island, Gemstone Mine and City of Brass all tap for blue as well as 2 of the named also tap for Swarm and PIF.

TES is worse deck because it plays Burning Wish and very few shuffle effects for BS; it has nothing to do with rainbow lands.

In TES you don't play the BS/Fetchland interaction to early fix mana/cards but right before you go off or for defense. I still have no clue why Burning Wish should be a prove for TES being bad. Does this imply that other current options in that respective slots in ANT like Preordain, Grim Tutor, 2nd PIF, LDV, Sensei's Diving Top and Co. are better Business spells?

EDIT: Btw, I'm not sure from where comes your certainty that I didn't test this manabase, but let me reassure you that I don't even need to test it. It happens that I just follow whatever Sloshthedark does, because he was always right about anything he did (double PiF main, LDV, his newest fashion is zero basics), while all the sourcers just grinned and held concilia about right number of Chain of Vapors.

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

I dislike Gemstone -snip- But I haven't tested it.

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

I'm fine with this setting. In fact, I'll take it to our lgs on Thu and lets see what happens.

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Both phrases make it clear what you neither tested Gemstone nor tested your manabase in the field and are just biased by an opinion given by a third player. Amazing groundwork dood

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

i could swear Basic Island, Gemstone Mine and City of Brass all tap for blue as well as 2 of the named also tap for Swarm and PIF.

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Oh, I see, that's true. Also the new fetches that search for Gemstone Mines are pretty powerful. I will use them in ANT immediatelly after Magic 2018 hits the stores.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

In TES you don't play the BS/Fetchland interaction to early fix mana/cards but right before you go off or for defense. I still have no clue why Burning Wish should be a prove for TES being bad. Does this imply that other current options in that respective slots in ANT like Preordain, Grim Tutor, 2nd PIF, LDV, Sensei's Diving Top and Co. are better Business spells?

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And that's what makes TES worse. That and Chrome Mox. Not much worse, but still.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Both phrases make it clear what you neither tested Gemstone nor tested your manabase in the field and are just biased by an opinion given by a third player. Amazing groundwork dood

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I am biased by my experiences of twiddling around with basic lands and with the way how the matchups play Swamps or not. They simply can't start by wasting you, because then they have no clock; they need to build their own positions, because they don't have much time: I don't plan to sit on basics and munch my scrotum for fifteen turns, I'd rather win in the first turns.
I also don't need to test miser's Gemstone Mine (namely when I have no way to search for it). You may play whatever you wish to in that slot and it'll be of the same importance and quality as Mine.

If the basics are so important, why not add some into TES? Or RUG? Or you know... into that deck with Balustrade creature?
And yes, I follow the more experienced. What's the trouble? I know that many people here think that been original deckbuilder makes their dicks longer, but trust me, it's not like you're inventing a cure for cancer.

Also, Lemnear, you don't need to act like I touched your younger sister. Just play basics and be done with it.

The whole joke is, that for generations of ANT players, sculpting their hand for ~3 turns off a basic Island was a cornerstone of their success and now you say here that playing "3-5" turns without any basics in your deck is suddenly the way to go.

The difference in the importance of Basics grounds obviously on the habit of TES of NOT cantripping for "3-5" turns but trying to present their kill condition during their first 3 turns, thus the inclusion of Chrome Mox and Rite of Flame rather than superior late-game-options like Cabal Ritual. Therefore, comparing the importance of Basics in both decks is pretty misleading.

If your Goal is to win asap by piloting a storm-deck, ANT isn't the best deck in doing so.

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I played ANT nigh exclusively for about eighteen months

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Congratulations! Another 18 months and we might not consider you a beginner anymore.

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Originally Posted by gregtron

Congratulations! Another 18 months and we might not consider you a beginner anymore.

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That's nonsense. There's no defined timeframe to learn storm. I just dare to claim that it's impossible to pickup the archtype the Night before a tournament and Pilot it beyond anything that 60% of it's offered potential

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The whole joke is, that for generations of ANT players, sculpting their hand for ~3 turns off a basic Island was a cornerstone of their success and now you say here that playing "3-5" turns without any basics in your deck is suddenly the way to go.

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That's why I wrote that I consider keeping one Island in so that I may play some cantrips on turn 1-2 without Waste interacting and then sac the fetches and go for the kill on turn 3- 4.
Seriously, Wasteland is my least concern, unless paired with clock/Thalia. What I find more problematic is discard/counters and been able to play whatevedr colored spell I got (be it Swarm, Carpet, Ponder, IT, Decay, whatever) without washing out the sb with lands, is fof greater importance then fearing a card that they might not even play and that's dead on turn1.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

That's nonsense. There's no defined timeframe to learn storm. I just dare to claim that it's impossible to pickup the archtype the Night before a tournament and Pilot it beyond anything that 60% of it's offered potential

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+1
I play storm for six years and still got something new to learn every tournament.
Ok, so what about gentlemen's agreement - you'll play your basics and Mine, I'll play my non-basics and zero Mine, and we'll never return to this affair.

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If your Goal is to win asap by piloting a storm-deck, ANT isn't the best deck in doing so.

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Yeah, maybe. Maybe TES would be better. But first of all, I don't meant it like I'm in a hurry, I just don't fear Waste on turn 1-2, because they can't Waste me, they must develop their position. (Which sadly sometimes means that the best play is to Waste me, but hey, I gonna try my chances anyway, it's not like we open every hand with one land.) also, though frequent, Wasteland is not omnipresent.
I'd play TES, but I consider it been worse deck, because it tends to get clunky multi-IT, multi-BW hands, uses that joke of a card Chrome Mox and its Brainstorms are far weaker. Also, PiF is non-variance engine and one may lose with AdN even if played in Lands.

This thread is riddled with burning wish vs non BW debates to the point of ad nauseam, with the main justification for BW to be answers for hate game 1 at the expense of the manabase and a sideboard that sucks.
Before I left the game a year ago I was on the BW plan too but now instead I've just been running 2 chain of vapors main and its been really good especially since I get a full sideboard. Honestly I do not miss BW at all. CoV has great synergy with the deck, enough so to be a MB staple I believe. Its especially useful for short storming through hate with empty + therapies and/or even with snapcaster if you dont run empty main. To everyone running wish why not try out CoV main instead?

In fact wheres Emidln these days? I would be interested to see his current iteration of storm and thoughts on CoV and SCM in the current meta.

Anyway on SB for a moment, I do not own xantid swarms so ive been playing defense grid in their place and I like them so far. However xantid swarm has the better effect, once it attacks, but seems to me to be more vulnerable to any deck that might leave in burn like RUG plus requiring a trop early and becoming active a turn later seems like it could cause issues. Are the swarms really better than defense grid?

Also can we just start referring to this deck as Flamestorm or even Cabal Storm? Either is more appropriate for the identity of the deck than ANT at this point. Personally ive been using Flamestorm but either is preferrable to ANT.

Tombstalker, may you share your CoV list?
I already thiught about Defense Grid in past, but I dislike that it costs 2 and thus is slower and Snare-able. Otoh, many decks leave some removal and Xantid dies to everything, also it's sometimes quite annoying when it flies right into Clique. (Or when you need to play several setup spells, but can't get past Insectile Abomination.)

Ya ive had similar thoughts on swarms, I mean their power is obvious I was just curious on swarm vs grid.

list:

8 fetches
2 sea
2 island
1 swamp
1 volcanic island
4 LED
4 lotus petal
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 probe
4 infernal tutor
1 lim-dul's vault
1 past in flames
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
3 cabal therapy
3 duress
2 CoV
1 sensei's top
1 snapcaster

SB
2 dread of night
2 defense grid
1 karakas
2 surgical extraction
1 extirpate
1 tropical island
3 abrupt decay
2 pithing needle
1 ad nauseam

There are a few slots that change fairly often. Im on and off the 2nd SDT vs 2nd SCM and AdN vs empty. I dont like to see multiples of SDT or SCM, or LDV for that matter.

Empty is great at times and has powerful interaction with therapies but too many decks have answers for it lately, hell pretty much every single deck does, plus I feel it tends to make you go for the easy out instead of thinking a little more to straight win. Ive learned the hard way a few times that blades and even a couple DRS are > gobbos. For these reasons and more I will often run ad naus in its place. Im just trying to figure out which is better suited MB for my local meta.

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

This thread is riddled with burning wish vs non BW debates to the point of ad nauseam, with the main justification for BW to be answers for hate game 1 at the expense of the manabase and a sideboard that sucks.
Before I left the game a year ago I was on the BW plan too but now instead I've just been running 2 chain of vapors main and its been really good especially since I get a full sideboard. Honestly I do not miss BW at all. CoV has great synergy with the deck, enough so to be a MB staple I believe. Its especially useful for short storming through hate with empty + therapies and/or even with snapcaster if you dont run empty main. To everyone running wish why not try out CoV main instead?

In fact wheres Emidln these days? I would be interested to see his current iteration of storm and thoughts on CoV and SCM in the current meta.

Anyway on SB for a moment, I do not own xantid swarms so ive been playing defense grid in their place and I like them so far. However xantid swarm has the better effect, once it attacks, but seems to me to be more vulnerable to any deck that might leave in burn like RUG plus requiring a trop early and becoming active a turn later seems like it could cause issues. Are the swarms really better than defense grid?

Also can we just start referring to this deck as Flamestorm or even Cabal Storm? Either is more appropriate for the identity of the deck than ANT at this point. Personally ive been using Flamestorm but either is preferrable to ANT.

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3cmc vs 1 cmc is the main driving force behind swarm versus grid, also some show and tell players can just hit 6 mana and hold 2 free counterspells and just beat a grid, swarm, just stops them.

the turn later thign isn't that big of a deal when it costs so much less, i am ok with saving 2 mana to wait a turn. AND allows for turn 2 wins with "silence protection"

i could try -2 gemstones +1 bayou +1 tropical

Grid is CMC 2, not 3 ;) but this doesn't matter that much.
@ Tombstalker and BedDecksPalyer: From my point of view, Swarm is mostly for the Show ad Tell/Reanimator Matchup...perhaps even Merfolk. Decks which can't deal with a resolved Insect. Nobody says someone should board it against RUG, which won't board out their Bolts against you most of the time. If a SnT-Player reveals a Griselbrand (drawing infinite Forces, Pierces, Flusters) and you reveal Swarm, you basically say: FU, I'll blank all your crappy counters and win anyways. That's not always the case with Grid in an often grindy MU like this. Against RUG I'm just fine with my Discard-Package and EtW (which I play as a 3-off in my Board at the moment).

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3cmc vs 1 cmc is the main driving force behind swarm versus grid, also some show and tell players can just hit 6 mana and hold 2 free counterspells and just beat a grid, swarm, just stops them.

the turn later thign isn't that big of a deal when it costs so much less, i am ok with saving 2 mana to wait a turn. AND allows for turn 2 wins with "silence protection"

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Thanks for the reply the turn 1 swarm play makes perfect sense. Hitting 6 mana I have seen before although their FoWs/BS etc become far worse when paying 3 apiece. Grid costs 2 btw unless your referring to bant with thalia maybe?

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@ Tombstalker and BedDecksPalyer: From my point of view, Swarm is mostly for the Show ad Tell/Reanimator Matchup...perhaps even Merfolk. Decks which can't deal with a resolved Insect. Nobody says someone should board it against RUG, which won't board out their Bolts against you most of the time. If a SnT-Player reveals a Griselbrand (drawing infinite Forces, Pierces, Flusters) and you reveal Swarm, you basically say: FU, I'll blank all your crappy counters and win anyways. That's not always the case with Grid in an often grindy MU like this. Against RUG I'm just fine with my Discard-Package and EtW (which I play as a 3-off in my Board at the moment).

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This also makes sense, ill have to pay more attention to how grid performs and maybe ill just end up buying some swarms.
EtW otoh is also very good against RUG especially in hand but im not willing to run more than 1 in the 75 anymore. I usually see MUD, reanimator, RUG, DnT, maverick, burn, miracle control, jund, few others. Most of these can shrug off goblin tokens pretty easily after the initial surprise.

I'm far from an experienced Strom player, but I've really liked Defense Grid whenever I've used it. I can't count the number of times that I've seen Swarm just get ranched. On the play, Defense Grid ensures that you can go off t3 unhindered since they won't have even made their 3rd land drop. Even when you are on the draw, your opponent will have to decide if doing nothing for the next turn or two is worth leaving up a single piece of countermagic. I concede that Swarm is better against decks that cannot easily answer it like SNT, but even Reanimator can blow Swarm out with Elesh Norn. Against decks like RUG that are relying on a critical mass of soft counters to get there against combo, Defense Grid blanks most of their hand.

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Originally Posted by Dzra

I'm far from an experienced Strom player, but I've really liked Defense Grid whenever I've used it. I can't count the number of times that I've seen Swarm just get ranched. On the play, Defense Grid ensures that you can go off t3 unhindered since they won't have even made their 3rd land drop. Even when you are on the draw, your opponent will have to decide if doing nothing for the next turn or two is worth leaving up a single piece of countermagic. I concede that Swarm is better against decks that cannot easily answer it like SNT, but even Reanimator can blow Swarm out with Elesh Norn. Against decks like RUG that are relying on a critical mass of soft counters to get there against combo, Defense Grid blanks most of their hand.

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Wow ... are you really breaking the matchup ANT vs. Reanimator down to Swarm vs. Elesh Norn?!? Griselbrand has flying btw and laughs at Swarm. Your best bet is Racing them ... not trying to be the control-deck.

The issue with Grid is that it costs 2 mana. When do you plan to play it? In your killturn? Unlikely to calculate 2 more mana in your combo. Spending your turn 2/3? Very questionable in a meta with a Million discard spells.

Not to talk about it being a target for the metagames no.2 counter: Spell Pierce. The only card in games 2&3 Swarm has to fear is Lightning Bolt from RUG

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

The only card in games 2&3 Swarm has to fear is Lightning Bolt from RUG

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I really seen Swarm hit by anything possible, even in decks that should not play any removal post-sb. (Looks like ppl are familar with Swarms...) Also, many blue decks pack Clique in sb for storm match.

I am wondering what people think, or what the expert opinion is on playing anything but one tendrils main in the preordain build as opposed to playing with burning wish or wishes and all the other random cards like empty the warrens, xantid swarm, ill gotten gains, etc. To me it seems to be an experience factor unless there are meta game factors I am missing.

In my progression with the deck I had to play with burning wishes and empty the warrens just to stay interested because I was missing so many lines of play. About a month and a half ago or so (maybe longer I can't remember) I decided to take a break from my other deck and just play storm until I was proficient with it. I was using one burning wish and a tendrils and past in flames in the s/b. At first I did not like preordain at all. After I played and played and played I understood that preordain just like using one tendrils increases the constancy of the deck.

If you are able to identify most (all if possible) lines of play then all the extra cards just get in the way. The discard package of four duress and 2 cabal therapy in the main is adequate for disrupting most plays your opponent is planning. I could probably go on and on about why I think this and why I think that, but what advantage if any do burning wish variants have over preordain builds? I also use one grim tutor because it seems to also be the more consistent than four preordains.

For the s/b I just do not understand xantid swarm. Carpet of flowers allows you to fix your mana base to either beat the counters or get the right color. I also do not really understand more than two chain of vapors. Most of the time I end up casting them off of an ad nauseam to bounce a leyline. Even in those circumstances I just board in the karakas and an extra cabal therapy to get thalia, and one chain of vapor. Slaughter pact also seems completely unnecessary and redundant. Chain of vapor can achieve the same goal against gaddok teeg, ethersworn canonist, and any other board piece that needs removed.

I am also wondering why more people do not use gemstone mine? That card probably picks up so many games its ridiculous because it can produce any color you need. I've also found that two basic islands, one basic swamp, four deltas and three tarns are necessary for higher consistency. I used to play tps in vintage, so the legacy version of storm just seems far more simplistic.

I'm not saying the cards I mentioned above are not good cards to play, but I am wondering what the numbers are on them in terms of success/failure in certain metagames. Go ahead and tear that post up, that is kind of what I am looking for here.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Wow ... are you really breaking the matchup ANT vs. Reanimator down to Swarm vs. Elesh Norn?!? Griselbrand has flying btw and laughs at Swarm. Your best bet is Racing them ... not trying to be the control-deck.

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There are a whole lot of things that can go wrong for ANT vs Reanimator, but unless I'm missing something Griselbrand does nothing to reduce the effectiveness of Swarm. I feel like trying to simply race Reanimator is a losing proposition since they are just as fast as us and pack more disruption.

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Originally Posted by jtos84

I am wondering what people think, or what the expert opinion is on playing anything but one tendrils main in the preordain build as opposed to playing with burning wish or wishes and all the other random cards like empty the warrens, xantid swarm, ill gotten gains, etc. To me it seems to be an experience factor unless there are meta game factors I am missing.

In my progression with the deck I had to play with burning wishes and empty the warrens just to stay interested because I was missing so many lines of play. About a month and a half ago or so (maybe longer I can't remember) I decided to take a break from my other deck and just play storm until I was proficient with it. I was using one burning wish and a tendrils and past in flames in the s/b. At first I did not like preordain at all. After I played and played and played I understood that preordain just like using one tendrils increases the constancy of the deck.

If you are able to identify most (all if possible) lines of play then all the extra cards just get in the way. The discard package of four duress and 2 cabal therapy in the main is adequate for disrupting most plays your opponent is planning. I could probably go on and on about why I think this and why I think that, but what advantage if any do burning wish variants have over preordain builds? I also use one grim tutor because it seems to also be the more consistent than four preordains.

For the s/b I just do not understand xantid swarm. Carpet of flowers allows you to fix your mana base to either beat the counters or get the right color. I also do not really understand more than two chain of vapors. Most of the time I end up casting them off of an ad nauseam to bounce a leyline. Even in those circumstances I just board in the karakas and an extra cabal therapy to get thalia, and one chain of vapor. Slaughter pact also seems completely unnecessary and redundant. Chain of vapor can achieve the same goal against gaddok teeg, ethersworn canonist, and any other board piece that needs removed.

I am also wondering why more people do not use gemstone mine? That card probably picks up so many games its ridiculous because it can produce any color you need. I've also found that two basic islands, one basic swamp, four deltas and three tarns are necessary for higher consistency. I used to play tps in vintage, so the legacy version of storm just seems far more simplistic.

I'm not saying the cards I mentioned above are not good cards to play, but I am wondering what the numbers are on them in terms of success/failure in certain metagames. Go ahead and tear that post up, that is kind of what I am looking for here.

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Shall I copy&paste the last 60 Pages of this thread for you? Because since the banning of Mystical Tutor exactly those topics are all the threads content

If you can summarize the last 60 pages that would be much better. I already have my thoughts on the subject. My view is that anything other than one tendrils and the preordain build is just less consistent, but good for learning.

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Originally Posted by jtos84

If you can summarize the last 60 pages that would be much better. I already have my thoughts on the subject. My view is that anything other than one tendrils and the preordain build is just less consistent, but good for learning.

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I played Preordain build for a very short period, so count me biased, but I find the durdling quite annoying. I wouldn't play anything else then LDV version except for a heavy hatebears meta, where I'd consider playing 2-3 BW and appropriate sb.

@jtos84:

The Burning Wish / No Burning Wish discussion is a heavily contested one. I appreciate that you make your arguments calmly and politely, unlike some people that frequent this thread. I wrote a brief analysis on how I see the differences on salvation, quoted beneath.

I'm not heavily experienced (having played ANT with Bwish for about 3 months now) so that might speak in favour of your 'experience' argument. I'd agree that running no wishes make the deck more consistent. But the deck WITH wishes is hardly inconsistent and I feel that the consistency you get, while great when goldfishing, often gets knocked out of course by a live opponent. Stuff like keeping a good hand on the draw, watching your opponent drop a t1 deathrite shaman and then you top-decking your one tendrils. Now, any discard spell from your opponent will basically end the game. Extraction effects post board also get way more scary. It might just be a question of experience and I might be more inclined to playing with no wishes, but the one tournament I tried it, I failed miserably at it and really didn't feel comfortable with it.

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Advantage of running without Burning Wish:

No awkward Past in Flames situations as tutoring for PiF will always result in the tutor being in the yard for the win (not factoring in actions by the opponent) - This is one of the major points against running Wishes. Having a hand of 2x Dark Ritual, 1x Cabal Ritual, 1x LED and then drawing a Burning Wish usually means being able to only make 12 goblins instead of simply winning which would have been the outcome had that Wish been an Infernal Tutor or a Grim Tutor (note: with a Grim tutor in the board you could potentially win with the wish anyway)

The manabase is more labored - without the wishes and with only PiF needing r you can get away with not playing the Badlands and only running a single Volcanic Island as your only red source. The freed spot can be used for an extra basic Island or potentially a Gemstone Mine. Also generally it just means fewer occasions where you need red mana which makes for more streamlined play.


Advantage of running with Burning Wish:

More flexibility, more roads to victory - Having Burning Wish means you won't get caught with your dick in the wind getting your only win con Tendrils discarded and removed from your graveyard with an extraction, a relic or something else. It also opens up a path to pre-board Empty the Warrens which can lead to the occasional turn 1, 2 or 3 10+ goblins. This is probably a matter of personal taste and temperament, but for me I absolutely didn't feel comfortable playing with the Tendrils as my only win con. On more than one occasion I've ended up with it stranded in my hand and my opponent having a Deathrite Shaman on the board. It just felt a lot more fragile and having Burning Wish in the deck just means more ways to get out of awkward situations where you've lost your Tendrils somehow.

Makes Ad Nauseam better - To me, this is a big upside. Ad Nauseam without Burning Wish means most of the time you must hit an LED. Will that happen often? Sure. Will there be occasions where two of your LEDs are already in your yard? You bet. But with Burning Wish it's usually much more straight forward to win off an AN as you don't need to get hellbent. It means you need red mana, either floating or by hitting a petal or a red producing land (assuming you haven't already got one untapped in play and have not yet made your land drop). There will be cases where you have one tutor effect and wish it were the other and vice versa, but I feel that all in all the wishes improve the Ad Nauseam greatly.

Game one access to anti-hatebear Cards - not autoscooping to a resolved Gaddock Teeg - This might not come up very frequently but it sure is nice to have the option of wishing for a Virtue's Ruin and kill the Teeg (or Thalia).

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Originally Posted by jtos84

If you can summarize the last 60 pages that would be much better. I already have my thoughts on the subject. My view is that anything other than one tendrils and the preordain build is just less consistent, but good for learning.

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The problem is that there's no consense. Here, you have to deal with peeps who tell you that Grim Tutor is nuts, groups that advocate for ugly 4-Color manabases to support Abrupt Decay and Burning Wish and others preach consistancy with 16 cantrips with 2,5 colors but all claim that they have THE SUPERIOR build, miraculously recover from any discard and are immune to Wasteland.

Obviously, that can't all be true at the same time and there's too much bias to tackle the certain problems without having the discussion derailed by talk about builds.

I've been looking at side board hate to play against storm. Nothing seems that overwhelming. I acknowledge you can easily loose to one piece of hate, or just take out four pieces plus like its nothing. Burning wish can be really good for maindeck thalias. It seems burning wish may just be a legitimate meta game choice as opposed to one build being superior or correct. It seems like it will just come down to preference because games two and three are not overly scary against dt or maverick.

I think I prefer three preordains and a grim tutor because of the consistency. I think it also allows me to remember lines of play easier because burning wish creates alternative lines which may cause difficulties at times.

Deathrite shaman can cut you off of past in flames. I do not think that this alone is all that scary. Out of all the games I have played against deathrite plus surgical it has rarely happened that I get my tendrils extracted. Its not even really common to get a tutor extracted. It seems like there is no one superior build, but to just be on top of your game and knowing exactly what lines of play you will encountering with the cards you are playing.

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Originally Posted by jtos84

I've been looking at side board hate to play against storm. Nothing seems that overwhelming. I acknowledge you can easily loose to one piece of hate, or just take out four pieces plus like its nothing. Burning wish can be really good for maindeck thalias. It seems burning wish may just be a legitimate meta game choice as opposed to one build being superior or correct. It seems like it will just come down to preference because games two and three are not overly scary against dt or maverick.

I think I prefer three preordains and a grim tutor because of the consistency. I think it also allows me to remember lines of play easier because burning wish creates alternative lines which may cause difficulties at times.

Deathrite shaman can cut you off of past in flames. I do not think that this alone is all that scary. Out of all the games I have played against deathrite plus surgical it has rarely happened that I get my tendrils extracted. Its not even really common to get a tutor extracted. It seems like there is no one superior build, but to just be on top of your game and knowing exactly what lines of play you will encountering with the cards you are playing.

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DRS does nothing to stop PIF

It obviously does something against something. I wonder what that would be.

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Originally Posted by jtos84

It obviously does something against something. I wonder what that would be.

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Maybe it pings target creature at cost of :r: and two cards from gy? Oh wait, must be the other creature...
Everytime I read such a bold statements like "DRS does nothing against PiF" I wonder if those players ever played a game of Magical gatherable cards. It's like saying "Terror does nothing against creatures". Yes, there will be the times when you combo through their sole DRS and watch them shed blood, sweat, tears. Otoh, there will be times when you'll not be sitting across a fish bowl, and then DRS will keep you of threshold, lower your life total, exile key cards and generally just ruin your day.

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

Maybe it pings target creature at cost of :r: and two cards from gy? Oh wait, must be the other creature...
Everytime I read such a bold statements like "DRS does nothing against PiF" I wonder if those players ever played a game of Magical gatherable cards. It's like saying "Terror does nothing against creatures". Yes, there will be the times when you combo through their sole DRS and watch them shed blood, sweat, tears. Otoh, there will be times when you'll not be sitting across a fish bowl, and then DRS will keep you of threshold, lower your life total, exile key cards and generally just ruin your day.

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DRS is only a Problem if you are unable to respond to your Cabal Ritual if they try to snatch your t.hold or being to shortsighted to cast Infernal->Infernal->PIF and laugh at them trying to stop you by removing Infernal.

Dood, if a single DRS activation per turn is threatening for your life total or enough to stop you from getting T.hold during your first, say 4 turns, I would question your playstyle and skill.

I made a bold Statement because the issue is pretty easy to solve. Take a look at my fucking reports in my sig to see how irrelevant DRS against storm are and save your "but, but, but you have no idea!" crap.

Terror does pretty much the same against Emrakul or Griselbrand that DRS does to storm.

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Shall I copy&paste the last 60 Pages of this thread for you? Because since the banning of Mystical Tutor exactly those topics are all the threads content

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Sadly this.

The problem (if it really is a problem) is the core of legacy storm is so integral it may as well be part of the 10 commandments. The core is so goddamn powerful as to win even when the remainder is built and piloted sub optimally. And thus cabal storm, "ANT" is become decadent arrested development.


What we really need is the fucking 3rd tablet moses never shared, but that would probably just get an entire deck banned.. hey maybe Lejay has it!

For you guys who play surgical extraction in the side, besides using it against reanimator, dredge or other faster combo decks, do you guys side it in against decks like miracles? Discarding a counterbalance/FOW and extracting it seems sweet.

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Originally Posted by mike1987

For you guys who play surgical extraction in the side, besides using it against reanimator, dredge or other faster combo decks, do you guys side it in against decks like miracles? Discarding a counterbalance/FOW and extracting it seems sweet.

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So you wanna waste cards in YOUR HAND to get rid of cards in THEIR LIBRARY which they MIGHT topdeck?

Think about resources, pal

Hi Guys, about the Grid/Swarm's debate, is true that grid is under snare/pierce, but in that case you wouldn't consider a 1 for 1?
I have play both grid that swarm, and it's hard to say which its better, but certainly i know that its very annoying have a grid in play, and couldn't go off because your opponent have 3 free mana to cast FoF.
Btw Xantid are more easy to get in play if we have green, and if we have more than one in play they can buy at least on turn to find some way to win. Ah and even if in this time its a rare match-up, xantid swarm are pretty effectives also against Dredge, in getting rid of their Bridge.

I apologize for my english, i hope not to do too much mistake!

WTF? Sorry, but you would board Swarms against Dredge to chumpblock? That can't be serious...

Belive me, instead, its serious stuff! I win a final chumpblocking dredge with swarm, true story bro'.. btw except COV and meybe an eventually surgical/extirpate what you would brought in for the other match?
Xantid force him to go of or have you dead on board if he doesn't want to lose his bridge.. And you may always play xantid and flashback a therapy to blows of the bridges.. Fantamagic XD but happens

Xantid Swarm + Cabal Therapy as tech vs. Dredge?

Discard their Dredge cards or what? Playing 2 crappy cards in that matchup postboard just to get rid of 1-2 bridges if you assemble both?

If this thread keeps up the quality of the last few pages we can move it down to Development. Swarm against Aggro, Defense Grid in a discard-meta, Surgical Extraction against FoW and the ever repeating question for advice which Build to choose between 16-cantips, Wish and Grim Tutor ... This thread became more degenerated than the old Elven thread imo. :(

I'm not saying to let inside my 4x of duress and 1x of thoughtseize.. I left in only my two therapy..
So: OUT - 4 duress, -1 thoughtseize, -2 gitaxian
IN +3 COV +2 surgical + 2 xantid
Eventually a Change Karakas-basicSwamp if you are expecting a Iona "returned"
Anyway i'm not saying that I have include xantid swarm in my sideboard like an anti-dredge slot, but even looking around to other Ant sideboard, we haven't much bullets against Dredge, so if xantid can provide more benefit than other main cards why not brought in.. Also, it works.. I understand that can sounds strange and I don't wont to convince anyone, just share experiences and thoughts. IMHO

I was hoping for a more scientific approach, but I think I understood what you meant.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

If this thread keeps up the quality of the last few pages we can move it down to Development. Swarm against Aggro, Defense Grid in a discard-meta, Surgical Extraction against FoW and the ever repeating question for advice which Build to choose between 16-cantips, Wish and Grim Tutor ... This thread became more degenerated than the old Elven thread imo. :(

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Swarm and Defense Grid both come in against counters. The problem is when so many of the counter decks these days are also packing multiple removal spells. And you still haven't explained why Swarm is bad against Griselbrand?

Surgical is awful against FoW, agreed.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I made a bold Statement because the issue is pretty easy to solve. Take a look at my fucking reports in my sig to see how irrelevant DRS against storm are and save your "but, but, but you have no idea!" crap.

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As far as ye ole Burning Wish VS Preordain, I have to admit that Preordain does make goldfishing T2s infinitely more consistent. As far as actual games... I've had a lot of trouble with discard + exile effects removing my only Tendrils and leaving me completely dead. Even just naturally drawing the Tendrils when you're on the LED plan makes a lone Deathrite or Nihil Spellbomb really awkward. Burning Wish, while clunky, gets around that.