A more correct meme would be:Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
- we got a good color representation!
Everyone playing 5-color jund.
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A more correct meme would be:Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
- we got a good color representation!
Everyone playing 5-color jund.
Did you know what they called the BG Rock deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
That's right - Redless Jund!
I'm playing Jundless Jund in my artifact deck this week.
"After that, we'll revisit Modern in Oklahoma City to find out if Theros can push new decks to the top of the format."
Y'know, by reprinting Thoughtseize!
Oh, and all the other good... cards..
ALL COLOURS ARE REPRESENTED EQUALLY!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gheizen64
Isn't that what we wanted?
No unbannings for Legacy but GP Detroit makes Modern look hilarious. That format, and WotC's management of it, is a veritable Monty Python sketch.
It's very sad since Modern has/had great potential to be another eternal format with its own interesting meta and Modern-defining decks that doesn't just take Legacy's best cards that aren't banned and mashed into some random pile. At the current rate, it seems like the format is turning into mid-range decks, slow combo decks, and decks that can hate on the former two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amon Amarth
WotC's haphazard, at best, management of Modern's Banned List coupled with their current design philosophy is what's really at fault. I think that the format fits pretty well between Standard and Legacy but they keep pushing midrange garbage decks that all play the same because there is almost no downside to playing four color decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Jundless Jund! LOL. I love it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Vintage is actually pretty diverse believe it or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Yes, diversity is given among the blue decks, but that's pointless if all lose to Shop and Dredge unless dedicating almost all their SB to those 2 archtypes and even then it's not uncommon that you are never able to play those SB cards because Shop locks you out on the play or Dredge dismembers your hand turn 2 with flashbacked Therapies if not kill you directly.Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
There's no fun in playing in rare and small tourneys of about a dozen peeps and half of them playing Dredge and Shop, killing you without having a chance to interact with them meaningful. I have enough of the format and WotC ignoring that there's a problem for more than 4 years. They will never touch Vintage anymore and just will let the format die in the chokehold of those 2 decks, that's my expectation.
It's like talking diversity of choice in pickung up KotR, Tarmogoyf or Teravore (Jace, Gush, Bob as engines in Vintage) for your deck to battle other creature-decks, while half of the format plays S&T or Storm.
The GenCon Vintage tournaments during the last few years were hilarious and BoM is going to drop the Vintage Tournament because of the vanishing number of players participating
Haven't any of the recent anti-yard cards made Dredge in vintage more bearable?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
You're kidding, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
January: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/met...e&fecha=2013-1
February: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/met...e&fecha=2013-2
March: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/met...e&fecha=2013-3
April: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/met...e&fecha=2013-4
May: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/met...e&fecha=2013-5
June: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/met...e&fecha=2013-6
July: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/met...e&fecha=2013-7
August: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/met...e&fecha=2013-8
July is the only month where MUD wasn't the top deck. The format literally looks like the colour of shit.
Keep in mind, it takes about 7 months of vintage to accumulate the same amount of data as 1 month of Standard.
More to the point for the purpose of that website any deck with Workshops = MUD and any deck with Jace = Jace Control and any deck with dudes = fish. There are at least 4 flavors of MUD, more Jace decks than I can think of, and at least 5 "fish" decks off the top of my head.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
Oh sure, there are variations. But compared to Legacy's various? Not comparable in the least.Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
Still more than Modern.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Well if Legacy is the baseline for a wide open format nothing is ever going to compare. Legacy is so wide open sometimes people complain on these boards that they wish the meta was more defined because it's entirely reasonable to go to a 9 round event and play vs. 9 different decks. I mean as far as being wide open is concerned Legacy players are spoiled.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
That said I went to Gencon and played probably 15 rounds of Vintage and I played vs. Dredge, MUD, Turbo-Tezz, Humans, RUG Delver, Bomberman, BUG Jace, UB Jace, Doomsday, Oath, Oops All Spells, and UW Fish, so I'd say Vintage is still pretty varied. MUD and Jace Control have many flavors that all get lumped together as opposed to other decks that have different categories on that site so it makes it look like the same MUD deck wins every event.
If you look at the decks the site is pulling from for example this http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...2&iddeck=85221 is a MUD deck
and this is an Oath deck (even though it runs 0x Oath MD) http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...0&iddeck=84822
To try to head off the pissing match:
Legacy is the most diverse format.
Vintage is more diverse and more interesting than would seem at first glance, and I bet many legacy players would enjoy it immensely. I also think many legacy players would hate it. It's worth your time to try it out.
(It's probably worth your time to try the other major formats, as well.)
This is coming from a storm player? Give me a break.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
Exactly. Great post.
Storm ist preventing you from playing spells at all and the Turn 1 kill-ratio is rather laughable compared to having playsets of Chalice, Lodestone, Thorn, Sphere, Phyrexian Metamorph, Wasteland, paired with singletons like Trinisphere and Strip Mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
@Drago
DRS is too slow to inferact with Dredge, but RIP made it into the Sideboards of Bomberman ... it's not that RIP offers MUCH more than Leyline of the Void, Dryad Militant or Jixlid Jailer did before :/
@Kingsey
Go crying elsewhere ... if you refuse to play counterspells (blue), discard (black) or permament based hate (mostly white and artifacts) or goodies in red like REB, Pyrostatic Pillar, etc. you simply lose to combo, period.
It's sad that you are unable to get the difference between a) having to choosing ways of disrupting storm based on your colors and sometimes loosing to a turn 1 kill with your turn 2 hate in hand or b) not being able to cast ANY SPELL THE ENTIRE GAME regardless of any of your previous decisions
Lemnear, you're giving Vintage the same prejudice the average Standard player gives Legacy. Also, you greatly exaggerate the success of Dredge in the format. Also, regarding MUD, it's consistently high placing seems awfully similar to the consistently high tops of Canadian Thresh, which has been the Deck to Beat almost every month this year.
I'm not prejudging ... I played Vintage non-stop since 2005 and stopped it last year, because Dredge and Workshop warped the format so much that even Vintage-enthusiasts like Stephen Menendian want the DCI to take actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by bjholmes3
I don't even want to talk in-depth about what was happend to my previous Vintage meta after all the semi- & Unpowered players got crushed by Shop & Bazaar week after week, ending up quitting or getting Bazaar themselves. The claim with 50% Shop and Dredge in my previous meta was no hyperbole. I think, and dare to estimate that others share my point of view, that the current Vintage metagame is as boring and stagnant as it was never before.
Take the results of the Grand tournaments during the last 4 years into account, the numbers tell clearly that Shop & Dredge have extraordinary High placings compared to the total number in the field ... The additional $ so shell out for 4 Workshops/Wastelands could be a reason that it's not more prominent in some areas. Bazaar mimics the issue for the unpowered-crowd. Have you ever seen that a non-dredge-deck won the price for "best unpowered deck" at Bazaar of Moxen? I don't
I doubt that Legacy has the aura of a "diceroll" or "Turn1" format among Standard players and for a long time it was an absurd idea for Vintage too, but being on the draw against Shop and Dredge got me thinking 2 years ago...
I'm trying to get my friend, who is a good magic player, into legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
His argument for playing legacy is: "I like playing games", turn 3 show and tell, Turn 2 belcher activation or turn two lots of spells into 12 goblins is not fun"
I keep showing him SCG results but he is simply too afraid of the combo decks...
I really think that it's how most standard players see legacy.
Except that Thresh gives you an opportunity to play your spells and in fact is not really powerful, it's just consistent and all-around good. Even in the worst case scenario (like Stifle + 2x Wasteland) the opponent had some chance to play anything and with a proper decission he'd maybe could fight back.Quote:
Originally Posted by bjholmes3
Otoh, turn1 resistor/Trini/Chalice followed by other lock(s) on turn2 and further on, may easily lead to a game where the Shops' opponent doesn't play a card and in fact never had a chance to play any.
Not a luring format, says a guy who never played it...
Ok, but was he in a Legacy tournament yet? Even as a mere spectator. He would see there's not much to fear...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
"One guy is not a trend", aside that's exactly the point I adressed before: play discard, counter, REB, taxing effects or swallow up defeat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
There are more than enough answers in the format ... I would show him the ways to interact with those "unfair" decks or make him trying to pilot such combo decks himself or watch a tournament: the fun isn't within the combo but the struggle to get it going
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Only I think Shops is more polarizing than Dredge is. Certain cards can beat Dredge like, with Leylines. Dredge having one way to win. Narco beatdown being the oh fuk scramble to try and not lose here option. There really isn't a card that stops shop and keeps it down that comes out turn 0 on the draw. Not to make Dredge seem trivial either. Dredge can still win despite 7 card sideboard slots. Because you need a very specific mix of mulling to Leyline, having clock, mana, and way to stop Claim/Chain/Wispmare. While they have few to no Therapies, mana, or answers for it.
Depending on the Mud deck, Goblin welder, oath of druids or even a clock + hate can be problematic for them. Workshop decks are basically the most played rogue/meta deck in the format. Everyone knows there out there but can't dedicate main deck interaction to them due to the fact it will make their other matches worse. Post board its a very fair match up for most decks. I haven't seen dredge do anything worth mentioning in vintage in ages.Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13
So your argument is there aren't good answers to artifacts? Lodestone isn't anywhere near as back breaking as you're making it out to be. There are combo decks in that format too, and no, we aren't "crying", simply stating facts. You hate games that aren't interactive yet you play storm. You said it yourself if they don't pack discard, counters, or some kind of resistor they deserve to lose, I agree. In vintage if you fail to bring answers to Shops and Dredge you deserve to lose as well. Sure they can get the nuts hand and ignore whatever you do, but can't that happen in legacy too?
It helps that it's the coolest deck in the format, IMO. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by bjholmes3
@Tylert: I started in Legacy by building Budget Bob decks that packed way too much discard. The idea was "Don't lose to unfair decks. Deal with everything else the hard way.". I had a boat load of fun, and it was always great to face down a Storm player and make T1 Hymn into T2 Liliana or something stupid and eaqually degenerate. The deck was inherently bad, but it showed me how to find a balance between beating Show and Tell and not dying to Jund. It was also quite cheap, but mostly because I was able to borrow my duals. (And still do a year on. *shame*)
Yes, exactly the reason why Vintage storm-combo runs Oath of Druids: to have a chance against WorkshopQuote:
Originally Posted by John Cox
There's a whole article Series written by Brian DeMars in the Web with the topic "on the draw against Workshop"; read how bad it is from another (well known) players perspective. It doesn't Matter if there are "good answers to artifacts" if you never have the mana to play them though Wasteland and resistors or they get simply countered by Chalice of the Void!Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
As stated above: Vintage storm runs Oath + Griselbrand because Artifact hate won't do it alone against Shops. Not even Nature's Claim is good enough to handle the Brown Menace.
Funny hitting me on Storm while I play Elves and Miracles as well, but lemme tell you that the primer gives me a thrill of being the possibly most skill- and math-intense deck in the format, despite of the challenge to not stumble over your own feets, opponents can interact in several ways with it, like I always presented.
Vintage Shop however often boils down to a single question: "Do you have FoW against my T1 Lockpiece?" ... Often followed by "Do you have enough mana to overcome my manadenial while I play only lands that produce 2+ mana?". There is no Chance to ever Fight back on the draw without FoW because of the redundant nature of Workshop decks. Workshop has more than 4 playsets of resistors and manadenial in it's 60 ... stop comparing it to Storms 4 Dark Rituals (EDIT: not to mention one is an instant that adds +2 mana once in your Pool and the other is a land for +3 you can use EVERY TURN)
In essence: there's still no hate existing that proper handles Workshop decks on the draw and unless you are a blazing fast combo deck there's no way you can win game 1 against Dredge while games 2-3 even remain a struggle even if you board in half your board you had to dedicate to that specific matchup
What? lol you're almost as good as Cavius sometimes.
Guys, don't try to convince me :p
I'm having a lot of fun in legacy and i play a fair deck (D&T).
My friend can nearly build merfolk... not the worst deck vs combo as it can easily pack FoW, dazes, Spell pierce, flutterstorm and mindbreak trap...
He just need to learn the meta and pack some hate against combo deck...
However, my point was that i see a lot of T2 players, including my friend example, that think that Legac is only a matter of T1 / T2 kills.
That would be indeed sad, because if you watch the SCG coverage, you can easily see that it's not the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
A sincere advice: don't let your Meerfolk-Friend get the illusion that the flurry of counterspells (especially the crappy MBT) affects TES/ANT ... they all run Xantid Swarm in the side for exactly those decks: Shitload of counters, no removal .
He'll learn that a diverse sideboard (Bounce / removal / counters) is the way to go... even if it is the hard way :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
We just don't want him to be discouraged, sitting across a Xantid Swarm with a grip full of counters, thinking "fuck this shit! Stupid Format!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
PongifyQuote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
The thing with MUD is that it has reigned as the most placing deck in Vintage since October of 2010. Worldwake-Lodestone- was released February of that year, and Scars Mirrodin was October of that year.Quote:
Originally Posted by John Cox
So basically in 3 years It has shitted on the format as the most widely top 8'ing deck. Out of those 36~ months, it did not hold its 1st place spot in placings only a paltry 6 times(6 months).
Thirty fukn months as the best placing deck is grossly over placing. Legacy's RUG isn't even half as close to that number.
Thank you. Hopefully people will stop claiming that Vintage is fine and healthy.Quote:
Originally Posted by menace13