You do realize that they will just name Teeg to Council's Judgment? The rest of the stuff can be terminus'd away at proper time without caring about Greaves.Quote:
Originally Posted by trollking21
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You do realize that they will just name Teeg to Council's Judgment? The rest of the stuff can be terminus'd away at proper time without caring about Greaves.Quote:
Originally Posted by trollking21
@trollking
My thinking with Vengeance was between haste and trample (and pump) you get to punch through TNN and have effective dudes against Miracles (since they won't get the opportunity to dig for one before getting hit, similar to greaves.) Basically, it turns any 2/1 into a first-strike trample version of batterskull. It's sort of an in-between of the Sword of X&Y and BSK; which is probably why it's meh.
@dsck
Maybe? They also may realize you can find Teeg (3-5 ways of getting him) easier than you can find greaves. Unless they can spend mana on Judgement while having enough mana for Jace/Entreat then you have a reasonable chance of simply having another Teeg/GSZ in your hand or topdeck. The risk/reward of hitting Teeg directly and then losing because they found #2 and you have no more answers (or have to leave up W for Plow right after Judgement) may mean hitting greaves and Plowing him now that he can't be protected as easily.
Either way, the situation is obnoxious for miracles, which is all you're trying to do.
Are people playing 2 Teegs maindeck nowadays?
I'm at 1 main 1 side currently, the second for the miracles matchup .
Not main; sdematt is starting a trend (with at least me and a couple others following) that in total, you may have 3. I like this number instead of my old 1 Teeg 2 Canonist side since the same combo decks are effected but it buffs Miracles.
So yeah; even if there's only a single Teeg in the main (GSZ), I'd probably hedge 1-2 in the side since GSZ only equals Teeg when he isn't exiled/dead (and against miracles, multiples make an annoying problem.)
In matt's case, it's 3 Teeg and a GSZ. In Mav's case I could see an X GSZ, 1 Teeg, 1 SB Teeg split for these reasons.
In my case, it's 3 in the side with no GSZ; but a SoLaS to give pro-white. I'd consider greaves to make Karakas dead, but I haven't decided. Wasteland helps enough there I'd assume.
EDIT: Ninja'd
Yeah I was thinking g1 miracle player definitely would Council's Judgment Teeg instead of Greaves.
I see the argument but idk....Teeg is a dud in other matchups. Having 2 main is a hefty gamble to take. Even against Miracles, STP or CJ naming "Teeg" opens up SDT -> draw effect - > Terminus through the upkeep, meaning extra Teegs. This is why Miracles is annoying. It doesn't help CJ > Shroud. It's a catch 22 for Maverick. We outselves can take out TNN but other decks like Miracles will use it against us. If I wanted to sure-up my Miracles matchup, I'd make sure I had QPM, Kgrips, and Armageddons than a 3rd Teeg and Greaves. Just my opinion though.Quote:
Originally Posted by dsck
Took the black-splash Maverick with Dark Depths to a weird $30/three-round tournament at Eudemonia in Berkeley today.
I beat Team America and Patriot in tight three-game matches against nice dudes, but punted hard my first game against Miracles. The second was lost when he randomly had his 1x Karakas to blank my Thalia and then I drew two more Thalias and only managed to top-deck a Wasteland after my opponent powered out four 4/4 angels. Sigh.
My sideboard lacked Pithing Needle and Choke, though even with them I guess it's an uphill fight. So I wound up with like $44 in store credit--not terrible. If nothing else, the deck remains a lot of fun to play.
Is the spike feeder combo just too expensive for legacy? Maverick would be the perfect home for it between the infinite life and the infinite 1/1 counters for any mana dorks you had on board already.
Yeah i would say it is too expensive for maverick. NicFit runs it, and is the only deck which can afford it, in my opinion. Between Explorer Ramp and Birthing Pod its easy to deploy the Combo. Maverick doesnt have those things and also runs the wasteland plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by lavafrogg
I've been wanting to dip my toes into a more creature oriented deck lately so I threw together a quick maverick list to spin around with. After a couple hours of testing, I've come upon this list; my starting point was a far more traditional maverick list featuring the fast 4 gsz's along with the toolbox and super fast mana. However, when I was playing versus miracles, the deck just seemed to play more and more into their terminuses. Unless gsz is fetching a teeg, all of the mana dorks and fast gsz targets just get swept away. I also found counterbalance hard to deal with if I didnt have a gsz. The result is that I moved to a list that is more inspired by d&t that features vials. I kept the 3 drs's for additional early presence as well as extra mana to help play/equip sofai/jitte. Here's the list I'm testing after a few tweaks here and there:
25 Creatures
4x Mother of Runes
3x Deathrite Shaman
3x Dark Confidant
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Serra Avenger
3x Knight of the Reliquary
13 Spells
4x Aether Vial
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
3x Swords to Plowshares
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Council's Judgment
22 Lands
4x Marsh Flats
3x Windswept Heath
2x Verdant Catacombs
3x Scrubland
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Forest
1x Swamp
1x Plains
3x Wasteland
1x Karakas
The main slots I find that are weak are the 2 serra avengers and the singleton council's judgment. WW can be a challenge to reach without drs; and while the serras were initially added to combat delver decks (list was intially closer to dnt after I added vials), I feel that the abrupt decays allow me to hit delver consistently enough that they weren't absolutely necessary. I'm considering dropping them for something else, but not quite sure what would fit well in those two slots. I'm considering the 4th revoker/thalia and a singleton library to help filter. The judgment slot is a concession to tnn being present in the metagame, but it is very difficult to cast when thalia is on the field, perhaps it would be better off to switch back to the 4th swords, especially if i decide to slot in the 4th thalia.
Anyways, thats where I'm at. I know that this is a fairly different approach compared to the standard gsz lists and harks back a bit further to the first maverick lists, but I think that vial is a excellent tool to battle the miracles matchup which seems to be a primary reason this deck is no longer so ubiquitous.
How about 2 Qasali Pridemage? They are a reasonable clock on they're own and add some disruption as well.
I was playing around a bit more with the deck and what I think would be excellent in the avenger slot would be tidehollow sculler. With vial on 2, its a great way to counter any miracle shennanigans unless they also have a swords (and you dont have an active mom), essentially doing a very good impression of vendilion clique. Vs combo decks, its basically a thoughtseize on a 2/2 body. Vs blade decks, its a nice stall tactic to turn off w/e they fetch for as well as to overload their somewhat limited removal. I also switched the judgment back to swords as getting 4 mana with this deck was sometimes a huge pain in the ass.
I also played around a bit with pridemage. When its good its amazing, but it doesn't really provide any card advantage and is just a dead card in a lot of combo matchups.
With UR Delver with 0 Wastelands quickly becoming a major deck to beat in the format, does Punishing Maverick become more well-positioned? I like the idea of 7+ maindeck removal spells for Aberrations and Pyromancers in a Mother of Runes deck right now. It might just fundamentally be wrong to not be casting Treasure Cruise and/or Lightning Bolt in the current format, but having the PFire engine seems like a really good way to for a non-blue deck keep up with a Cruise aggro deck, and cards like Scavenging Ooze are pretty insane. Jund's discard plan looks a lot worse when they can Cruise their way out of it so I'm starting to think that Maverick is poised to put up results. This is all just theorycrafting though. Has anyone tried updating Punishing Mav for the post-Cruise format?
I've been thinking about punishing fire as well.
Here is my current build. I've seen a few punishing lists choose maindeck mindcensor over Thalia and I've actually really liked the change, people have just not been playing around mindcensor at all and you don't slow down your own punishing fires. I could easily see Thalia being the right choice in the cruise world though.
Main
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Aven Mindcensor
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Sword's to Plowshares
4 Punishing Fire
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
1 Plateau
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
SB
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Life from the Loam
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Rest in Peace
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Choke
The sideboard is definitely just a mess of on-color good stuff I like...
I ran a non black splash list like this a while ago, but I strongly recommend 2 wilt leaf lieges in the board. It makes hymns awkward, lili awkward, can preemptively stop golgari charm, night of souls betrayal, zealous persecution from the blade decks rock and black mirror, and turns thing like mindcensor into a more serious threat. In the black maverick lists you dont have to worry as much since you cut some hierarchs and add some deathrites, but in this list I think wilt leaf would be perfect. Not sure what to cut though, sideboard is mostly combo/control hate and wilt leaf is more on the midrange hate. 3 Teeg and a choke against miracles post board is disgusting.Quote:
Originally Posted by supremePINEAPPLE
I think you last sentence will apply to a lot of decks going forward. I'm predicting I'll want all the Teeg I can get.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
I actually really like swapping out the spirits for wilt-leaf lieges since I was definitely overloaded on combo/blue answers in the board. Thanks for the suggestion.
You're welcome! After that you will be super well rounded, Spirits would be better against elves, but you already have mindcensor to attack them.Quote:
Originally Posted by supremePINEAPPLE
Although I didn't do so hot at this weekend's small GPT, I reached the same conclusion about Mindcensor. I've hated on this card for so long, but literally every top deck gets in trouble when this guy flashes in (all blue decks, combo, elves, DnT with stoneforge). I beat reanimator wasteland-ing their opening dual, having them brick for a turn, then mincensor-ing in response to a fetch. It's backbreaking. I have to find a way to bring him into the MD.Quote:
Originally Posted by supremePINEAPPLE
I've also debated about Pfires. Despite it being well-positioned on paper, I'm not sure if it's worth switching over. I win so many games going Thalia + Wasteland. I acknowledge Pfires gives us infinite removal for x/1 and x/2 things but I need convincing over Pfires engine > Thalia. I'm not opposed to switching over from a black splash to red. The colors help with different metas. I just need to see what's better/stronger in the current UR/Elves/Miracle mix.
@Choke: I keep going back and forth over playing this or armageddon. Two weeks in a row I swap out a pair of armageddons for a broader SB card (this week was mindcensor). Both times I should have stayed with my gut. 'Geddon would have been just brutal.
*Something I did learn this weekend: I should play an oblivion ring or canonist for decks that cheat things out into play. I beat Hypergenesis by the skin of my teeth.
New SB is looking like...
3 Thoughtseize
2 Canonist
1 Teeg #2
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Toxic Deluge
1 PTE
5 Flex (RIP, Liege, Armageddon, ZP #3, Planeswalkers, Oblivion Ring, NO package)
I'm debating on joining the Junk Maverick movement: on one hand, the appeal of Sylvan Safekeeper with Mother of Runes to say no to spot removal looks really damn good in the current meta. But on the other, old habits die hard, and I'm so used to Nic Fit that building with a low curve in mind is gonna be tricky.
So, enough of my useless rambling: any suggestions for the following list?
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Mother of Runes
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Windswepth Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Karakas
3 Wasteland
EDIT: Updated -3 Wasteland; +1Thalia (Despite all the vulnerable manabases at the moment, I feel that Maverick cannot make as much out of Wasteland as the Delver decks)
EDIT: Updated: -1 Thalia; -1 Knight; +2 Linvala (A flying creature carrying a sword seems legit, and what better way to make use of one than to give it a relevant ability)
Updated: -1 Sc.Ooze; -1 Pridemage, -1 Depths, -1 Stage, +3 Wasteland, +1 Karakas (Although I see the value in Stage Depths being able to end games quickly, I have reservations about being able to survive that long against combo, which is when I would definitely want the game to end asap).
Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner
Hey there. Are you running 62 cards deliberately? :smile: I just took the "dark maverick" deck to my LGS and it felt really solid. It's quite similar to your list except I chose to eschew the stage/depths combo in favor of the 4th wasteland and a cavern. I would love to find room for bob but have not been able to.
Hehehe yeah: apparantly I'm having trouble using Excel to double check myself :P. Anyhow, the way I see it, there are two reasons to play black: better noncreature (or to be more precise, more generic) removal/hand disruption, and Bob to help with Sylvan Library card advantage (mostly because A) Bob is a creature, so it doesn't get hit by Thalia and B) Although Sylvan Library can draw more cards in one turn, chances are you wont be paying as much life per card with Bob).Quote:
Originally Posted by nevilshute
I'm iffy on recent changes to the list, mostly because while I'm skeptical about wasteland's applications as mana denial tool for Maverick (tbh, it seems like we're more of a creature-based control list as opposed to a straight up tempo list), I do recognize it's value as removal for utility lands (Dark Depths, Karakas, Gaea's Cradle/Serra's Sanctum, etc.). Also, I'd hate to run max Thalia since she is legendary.
I also kinda want to include a flier or creature with reach in here somewhere, most likely Linvala since it looks like Elves! is hell game 1 for me.
Do you even Maverick, bro?Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner
On a serious note, Wasteland + Thalia honestly wins half my games. Linvala is okay only if you can live to see turn 3/4 where you can drop her. At that point, the opponent is capable of natural order-ing a wincon into play. With UR delver making huge strides where I play, Linvala would be a cute blocker but her real benefit doesn't stop triggered shenanigans like Swift, YP, and Delver itself.
I think there's room for improvement in this list. I don't think you need two karakas as Knight of the Reliquary can fetch your singleton. If they cast show and tell, you can put a Knight into play, untap and search for karakas with no problem. I would not play less than 4 Knights in Maverick. To me, Knight is the heart and soul of this deck and cutting even one is a mistake. The same goes for Thalia. She is one of your best cards in countless match-ups, you want 4. You said Maverick "cannot make as much out of Wasteland as the Delver decks" but I strongly disagree with this statement. After playing Maverick for years, I've concluded that Maverick is one of the best "wasteland" decks. The reason for this is simple. Knight can fetch wasteland, and many games are won by this approach of just tutoring up a wasteland every turn until your opponent can no longer cast anything. On that subject, I would not go below 4. As someone else in the thread mentioned, Thalia + wasteland wins games.Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner
With your list, I would make the following changes: cut the linvalas, and either the dark confidants or the stoneforge mystics depending on personal preference. Maverick is not that much of a "stoneforge" deck, and I only say that because we rarely play 4 and never play batterskull. Qasali pridemage is a 3 of in most lists to simply beat the stoneforge decks. It's a great tool. Linvala sounds like a slam dunk but really it's a trap. Her ability sounds great but she does almost nothing in a majority of match-ups. I've played one in the side and it was merely ok, not great.
With all that said, welcome to playing Maverick and I'm someone that also loves Nic fit so I feel like we could get along.
Hey everyone. I'm a long time storm player. Occasional Thalia.deck player. About 1 1/2 years ago I got the cards for maverick together but only played it a few times before deciding to put all my focus on storm. In the mean time I have - from time to time - felt like playing a creature-centric deck but, perhaps buying into the talk of Maverick's demise, I chose Death and Taxes.
Now, for the past year or so, maverick has been more or less off the map where I play. There is one guy at my LGS that always plays it but he only shows up once every couple of moths. He's somewhat of a master with the deck, though, and nearly always does well. He has adopted the black splash btw.
Then there's Thomas Herzog who keeps propping up in the occasional scg-top 8 now and again. And I keep thinking... Is maverick perhaps one of the most underplayed decks around? In relation to its, erm, power level?
Bottom line is that for a good while I've felt like the deck was WAY under-hyped and the fact that so few people were playing it meant people had written it off. Not that it was actually a bad choice.
So I talked to a buddy if mine and came up with a list and I took it to a 25-person tournament for a 4-0-2 record (the 2nd draw being an ID). I faced:
Infect: 2-1
Painter: 2-1
12-post: 1-1
UR swiftcruise: 2-0
Merfolk: 2-1
Last round: ID
I loved playing the deck and I'm certain I didn't play it to near its full potential.
I'd love to get some feedback on the list. The cavern would have been a cradle but I didn't have one. The cavern actually ended up being very relevant against UR. The 2 teegs were a concession to a) the new delve cards, b) facing miracles and c) facing storm. There were both storm and miracles in the room but I faced neither. And I only faced one deck playing with delve cards. Subsequently teeg felt most insignificant and got sided out a lot. Still not ready to abandon my plan of running two though.
One final thing is, that I would love, love, LOVE to run bobs as it's one of my favorite cards, but I was simply unable to convince myself that it was proper to do so. He makes us more vulnerable to -1/-1 effects. We need him to survive two turns before he generates card advantage. Also, since I'm not running discard in the main I feel like there are less dead cards later in the game where we would need bob to draw us through them unlike Jund.
I might be wrong and would love to be convinced :smile:
My list for reference:
4x Thalia
4x mom
4x knight
4x deathrite
2x stoneforge
2x pridemage
2x gaddock teeg
1x ooze
1x noble hierarch
1x scryb ranger
1x aven mindcensor
1x jitte
1x sword of fire & ice
1x sylvan library
4x swords to plowshares
4x green sun
4x Heath
3x verdant
1x flats
2x savannah
1x bayou
1x scrubland
2x forest
1x plains
4x wasteland
1x karakas
1x cavern of souls
1x horizon canopy
1x dryad arbor
Sideboard:
3x thoughtseize
2x ethersworn canonist
1x surgical extraction
1x bojuga bog
2x abrupt decay
1x krosan grip
2x zealous persecution
1x garruk relentless
2x Pithing needle
Has anyone tested a few preachers in the mainboard? Been testing them, and they've been pretty sexy. Teeg is also a miniumum of two in my mainboard because of treasure cruise.
I have been brewing between Punishing and GW for a few weeks now and Thalia is just so strong but so is punishing fire and I want to play P fire and a strong two drop that is anti combo besides teeg and then i saw this list:
Maindeck (57)
Creature [21]
1 Birds of Paradise
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Mother of Runes
1 Noble Hierarch
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaddock Teeg
Artifact [2]
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Instant [8]
3 Punishing Fire
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Abrupt Decay
Sorcery [3]
3 Green Sun's Zenith
Land [23]
1 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wasteland
1 Thespian's Stage
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Arid Mesa
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Dark Depths
Sideboard:13
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Sylvan Library
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Crop Rotation
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Slaughter Games
full list wasn't provided so I'd add an Ooze, pridemage and a mom, I'd also cut the 3 non-heath fetchs for 2 wastlands and a savanna,as far as the sideboard goes id cut the traps for canonists, i think trap is really weak because the decks you bring it in vs always play probe,not sure what the calls are with slaughter games and what its' good vs,with the two open spots I'd play 2 choke. thoughts?
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/c...sts-2014-10-25
Any thoughts on the list that did Top 8 at Eternal Weekend?
It looked really weird to me at first (Domri and Voice were odd to see) but I kind of like it more and more as I think about it. I mean, I probably would cut the Domris if I took this list to a tournament, adding most likely the second Scooze and the Library that are in the sideboard right now, but I think the broad strokes of the deck are pretty ideal (Stoneforge for Batterskull as a main plan, lots of Knight fuel without too much utility land durdling, solid removal and GSZ packages).
I'm not crazy about the SB, I think it has a couple maindeck cards in it (second Scooze and Library) and I've never been impressed by Thrun. I think it's possible that a couple Electrickery are warranted, not just because Young Pyromancer is the best creature in the format right now, but also due to the splash damage against opposing Mom decks and Elves. Tabernacle feels a little too symmetrical for my tastes. And I've found that ever since Council's Judgment got printed, Armageddon is a better haymaker against Miracles than Elspeth (although Elpeth's value in the BUG matchup might still mean she keeps the slot). I'd probably build his board like this (after subbing the two maindeck cards in for the Domris):
2 Pyroblast
2 Electrickery
1 Life from the Loam
1 Council's Judgment
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Choke
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Krosan Grip
1 Path to Exile
1 Energy Storm
I think if Energy Storm is the truth against Burn (and it looks like it, on paper) this board might want more than one. The two Krosan Grips look clunky and bland, but RIP hurts, and every deck that boards it in has multiple other relevant targets, so I wanted a lot of that effect. This board does very little to address the issue of combo, but with the meta the way it is right now, I feel ok giving up some ground on the Storm, Sneak and Show, and Reanimator matchups. (And more to the point, if I felt like I needed to prepare more for those decks, I would be playing a Thalia build or just straight D&T anyway, the decision to bring Punishing Mav in the first place really rests on the assumption that these decks are not as relevant as decks that play lots of dudes).
Since I'm playing D&T right now, I of course tend to think more deeply into that matchup than is maybe necessary. This board has 6-8 cards to bring in and the maindeck only really has 4-5 I'd want to take out. I'd need to test a lot of post board games to figure out how much the matchup changes in them.
I thought the most interesting thing about that list was the fact that it has 0 deathrite shaman. The last time I saw someone do well with a list like that was Meru Bhanot playing straight GW in a starcity like 3 years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
It's not really that surprising. Surprising that he went GWr instead of GWB? Maybe. But once you accept that, it's a simple matter of there being no mana to support Deathrite Shaman's most important function.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
Even the punishing fire lists have splashed for shaman since Fabian Goerzens list at gp strausburg. I am glad to see hierarch return, I always loved it as a card.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
I think Voice will someday find a home; though I'd imagine in GWB for Souls. The reason I say this is because it's two sword-carriers in one. If you get more dudes, more power to ya. It also has minor application against Liliana's and the token can be larger on the attack than an opponent expects. (Kills Voice, you get a 1/1, you drop a DRS next turn and swing for 2 and they can't block or w/e.)
That said, it's a bear that only has an upside against non-Plow decks and the upside can be pretty minor. With all of the TA, Shardless, and RUG though; I could see him slowly make his way in. He can make counter-spells pretty one-sided in Bant colors (since if they counter back, you gain dudes.)
ಠ_ಠQuote:
Originally Posted by Pans-Advocate
I was being serious. I think Pyromancer is better than Deathrite, Stoneforge, True-Name, Delver, and Goyf. What else is even in the running? Watching the Eternal Weekend coverage made it clear to me that the card and board advantage that Pyromancer creates if you don't kill it immediately on sight is unparalleled and can win otherwise totally unwinnable games. Basically if you are not playing a way to sweep opposing X/1s in your 75, your deck is not equipped for the most powerful plan that the best deck in the format is using. Kevin Jones completely sold me on UR Delver being the best deck in the format, and Pyromancer being the reason why.
Junk needs Zealous Persecution. Punishing Mav needs Electrickery. Straight GW is probably not viable. If I really thought that straight GW was where I wanted to be, I would still splash Persecution out of the board with a Bayou and/or Scrub in the main. The win% gained against Elves and D&T (and, in the case of Zealous, TNN decks) is becoming icing on the cake ... The real targets are Elemental tokens.
Regarding the lack of Deathrite Shaman, I actually like that choice right now. With the increased value of RiP, Shaman's capacity as a mana dork suffers too much in post-board games, and this deck really, really needs the mana. Noble not tapping for red hurts, but at least it always makes mana. However, the other side of this is that refusing to splash makes the combo matchups harder because you can't Thoughtseize them. Fortunately, the tempo decks that we are targeting by playing Punishing Mav are also pushing combo out of the format somewhat.
I completely agree. I've always defined the best creatures as, "Can I allow them to untap with this?" Deathrite, Stoneforge, Mom, Bob, Metalworker if you want it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pans-Advocate
Delver, TNN and Goyf, actually, I don't care about in the same way. They are efficient beaters that can get ahead and can kill you, but they don't really offer other advantage. I'll take hits off a delver for a few turns while I set up something to overwhelm it.
Young Pyromancer is even more dangerous because they don't even need to untap with it, thanks to free spells, or just casting it with mana in play. Plus it can flip the board on you (pyro, bolt your guy, counter your next guy). And if they get two down.... Watch out.
GW has Holy Light at least. Wouldnt be the best with Noble Hierarch, but I think it would be worth it in the matchups where you want it.
I am actually thinking it might be time to bring out the old 1-2 punch of Loyal Retainers/Elesh Norn. Norn is very castable with Cradle, and seems like it would just slaughter right now. Need to look at those old Adam Cai lists for inspiration.
BSK just beats it. As does SoFaI on anything. Pyro is good, but he's susceptible to the removal the format already wanted us to run due to Elves and D&T, and isn't any more impressive against Miracles than Goyf. I felt the oddness against UR delver where I had to kill a Pyro and they had Daze + FoW in hand; but it'd be the same way if it was a Goyf. I've abused Pyro before in a weird brew and it was nice to swarm through TNNs and Goyfs while being able to stall, but at the same time I don't think he's long for the format; he'll go back to obscurity just like he did with Grixis Delver; he's too weak as a topdeck or against any deck with reasonable board presence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pans-Advocate
Time will tell and we can agree to disagree for now, I just really think you're heavily exaggerating his power level. People should've been running sweepers anyway; UR delver just made it obvious enough that people might freakin' do it now.
I should point out that it hasn't had enough showings in the Top yet to become a DTB. It probably will, but I think the frenzy will die down shortly and he'll fall into the abyss with Swiftspear at his side.
I don't think Holy Light is playable, especially since straight GW's mana dorks all die to it (whereas a list relying on Deathrite could play it, but Persecution is just way, way better if you're already doing that). The upside to splashing is too high, especially when even the tempo decks are cutting Wasteland and you're less likely to get punished for greedier mana bases. I love the idea of putting Elesh Norn on the table but it feels too clunky and slow to successfully enable against any of the decks that you want it for except maybe the mirror (Elves is too fast, D&T has too much grave hate that they're already siding in, Pyromancer/Delver decks will never let your Fauna Shaman activate). I'm still keeping my eye on that strategy though, if the format starts evolving towards more midrange-y decks that can stymie tempo assaults it could be quite a trump. Remember when Maverick was siding Gideon Jura for the mirror? God, I wish that card was realistically castable right now ...
I don't see how it is remotely possible to claim that UR Delver isn't a deck to beat right now. It is far and away the most successful deck in the format at this moment.
Maybe we should just be siding Gut Shots.
I mentioned Gut Shot a week or two ago in the DnT thread. I like the Elecktrickery talk if people go R for Punishing Fires.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pans-Advocate
As for the discussion at hand, I like the upside of Elesh Norn but can't justify it. The time it would take to string together that combo you're better off going DD/Stage for an auto-kill. You also have to fit very clunky cards together -- Fauna Shaman(s), Elesh, Loyal. What do you cut to make room for this? If you were hellbent on cramming such a package into the deck, I would assume you cut SFM + equipment not named Jitte to accommodate. Even then, you would have to convince me you're make the deck better. I'm not opposed to the idea of Elesh in Maverick (especially with the meta the way it is right now). However, I would need to see some results.
Pure GW Maverick is dead. You need a splash color to generate CA. We have an increasing need to sweep the table (UR, Elves, DnT/mirror). I'll stand by my 5x sweepers in the board until a better solution is found.
Alright, alright, you guys have convinced me.
I have flip-flopped more than Mitt Romney on my deck choice for SCG Oakland, but I think I will play Dark Maverick, the deck I have most tournament experience with.
Last I played this deck was December last year at SCG Vegas. I went 4-5 beating grixis delver, high tide, UB Tezz, and esper stoneblade. I lost to Elves, rug delver, merfolk, jund, and bant.
I have played Jund for just under a year, but I really like where Maverick is at the moment.
What would you guys recommend as a gauntlet for testing right now?