[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

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Originally Posted by guelahpapyrus

Hey Tao (and anyone else on the Lilliana boat)-

I've never liked playing with Lilliana except with P-Fire or Recurring Nightmare, it just always felt bad to +1 her unless I didn't have a hand. Most of the time she ended up being a 3CMC Edict. It seems like a lot of the better players really like her, so I assume I'm doing something wrong when I play with Lilliana. Can you sell me on her?

Also, I noticed Tao took out the Probes in favor of Inquisition. This is exactly what I did in my BUG build, except with Thoughtseize. Why not Thoughtseize?

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Liliana fits very well in both my builds. The Punishing list is designed to use her as best as possible. You have 4 Fire, 4 Grove and 4 Top to find the Combo fast. And with those 4 Top and the 3 Thoughtseize you can reach that "unless I don't have a card in hand" state quickly.
In BUG she forms a great tag team with Jace. The two combined usually make the game end very quickly in your favor.

What I like about her in general is her flexibility:
- keeps Combo decks down so they have a much harder time coming back from your initial Discard. Thoughtseize/Therapy followed up by Liliana is much more devastating for them than Thoughtseize/Therapy followed up by creature pressure.
- a random Edict against Aggro, not very good but it helps
- backing up Deed/Decay/Fire by clearing what they can't hit (most notably Tombstalker from TA and Progenitus from Elves)
- she forces Miracle decks into a role that they are not designed to play, being active. Because if they can't deal with her quickly they lose to her ultimate.

I find Inquisition/Thoughtseize in general very close. I think Punishing lists can deal with the lifeloss a bit better than BUG so I chose IoK in BUG. It doesn't really matter I think, Thoughtseize is great, too.

Quick report:

vs Punishing Jund: Game one I kept a Deathrite, double therapy two fetch hand on the draw. The deathrite gets punishing fired and my first two draws are more therapys. He eventually double wastes me and I die without seeing an explorer or another land. Game two I screw up by playing turn one explorer off of a basic instead of fetching bayou. On my next turn I play tower and need to fetch double forest to cast decay on his bob and run out kitchen finks. He hymns me, wastes the tower, and I sit there drawing black cards (which he hymns) before drawing another explorer. And another. And another. Finally, I've fetched all my basics and have a 35 card deck with five lands left, and manage to draw three fetches in a row. At the end of the game, I punt again by ignoring my graveyard when Brainstorm finds a E Witness, figuring his Deathrite can just eat whatever I target, forgetting I had a deed from earlier.

So, not playing well. 0-1

R2 vs reanimator. Game one I play an explorer and he turn one careful studies. I turn two Therapy (hit) and flash back before casting Pod, my only action. He untaps, cantrips, and Exumes Grizzel into play and I get back Explorer. He draws seven and gets an Iona on green. I pod Explorer into P Image, copying Grizzel, and have some fun of my own. Shriekmaw answers Iona, and Recurring Nightmare starts doing silly things. G2 he forces my t1 seize and I die t2, G3 he has to fight through Deathrite but then I have more fun times Imaging Grizzel.

1-1

R3 vs Maverick G1 I keep a double therapy, Bstorm, explorer hand with plenty of gas but no green source. I give myself very good odds to win if I hit, and the therapys should slow the opponent down long enough. Of course, I die with Deed in my hand and no green source at the end of the game. G2 I have a clunky start but finally draw deed. Unfortunately, I miscalculate the board and die.

Still not playing well. 1-2

R4 vs Punishing Jund G1 I land a turn three grave titan. G2 he has active PFires, Liliana, and a Goyf going. I draw grave titan but he fires the zombies and edicts me. I draw veteran explorer, which he lets live. Next turn I draw Recurring Nightmare. He reads it before letting it resolve, and suddenly I have Grave Titan back. I end the loop with Eternal Witness getting back Brainstorm so that he can't liliana uptick to get rid of Nightmare. He kills Grave Titan again but dies to the reload + Phantasmal Image.

2-2

R5 vs Reanimator

G1 we strip each other's hands and he reanimates a turn three Grizzel. I Redcap him to seven, ship turn, and deceiver tap Grizzel on his upkeep. On my turn I land titan, and his only out is exhuming an Elesh Norn, which he doesn't find off of his seven. (not even always a md card) G2 He kills me turn two. G3 we strip each other's hand before glen elendra comes online naturally. He eventually sticks a Grizzel, but I have deceiver to tap it for lethal.

Never played a Pod, Deathrite, or Ooze this match, just killed him with discard and random garbage.

3-2

R6 vs Jeff Rasmussen with RUG

Matchup is a bye. Like it's good for normal 'Fit, but even better with four strix and more gas.

4-2

R7 vs Paul Morelli with Shardless BUG

Game one he Hymns me into Lili into Jace, but I stick a Pod and he dies. G2 I therapy his Jace and kill him with Pod again.

This matchup is actually close, and very losable if they open with an early shardless into visions to destroy whatever you're trying to do. Paul boarded in Submerge, which I think is a mistake, though it did fog my pod chain a couple times.

R8 vs Elves

G1 he kills me turn three while I need one more turn to deed, g2 I strip his hand and kill him with Pod, g3 I get hung up on a clique line and this tunnel vision makes me miss an obviously better line, and I completely punt the game and match.

Still playing like garbage. Deck is complex, fun, and very hard at times.

5-3

R9 vs Storm

Game one I open with Explorer and he makes 12 1/1s. I sack explorer to tower and make a strix, ooze, and second explorer. I block, taking nine, and the second explorer trigger lets ooze eat on his turn. On my turn three I brainstorm and have redcap, image, and glen elendra to put the game away. G2 I mull to four and he opens with goblins again, and I don't find a golgari charm. G3 I keep therapy, explorer, mindbreak, lands and open with therapy on probe. My reasoning was that I'd seen probe both previous games but only one duress and silence in game two, so I actually didn't know how many duress he had since it could be split with silence. I was trying to protect the mindbreak, but this was a bad line as his hand could go off turn one with a duress for my trap. He doesn't have mana floating and ad nauses down to one before passing the turn. I draw negate, pass. He tries comboing and negate bricks him. I untap, flash back therapy (thanks ad naus) and play a strix. He dies.

6-3

Overall list felt great and I had a lot of fun. Wish I'd mulled more aggressively in the opening rounds and hadn't punted so much, but some of that is inexperience with some of the (very) complex lines that come up.

Also, Recurring Nightmare is incredibly orgasmabonkers in this deck. Never lost a game after sticking it or Grave Titan.

Shriekmaw was the only five drop I was consistently happy to pod up, but it's also dead vs a giant chunk of the field. Hmm. Has to be a good five drop vs spells out there. Like I really like the redcap/glen elendra split on the four drops.

The reason I cut Recurring Nightmare from a lot of my lists was theorycrafting with Deathrite everywhere. You didn't run into that issue it seems? (Pod seems so well positioned to use Recurring Nightmare. Hell, that's one of my favorite cards from the old lists, definitely one of the cards that made me love this deck.)

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Originally Posted by Tao

Liliana fits very well in both my builds. The Punishing list is designed to use her as best as possible. You have 4 Fire, 4 Grove and 4 Top to find the Combo fast. And with those 4 Top and the 3 Thoughtseize you can reach that "unless I don't have a card in hand" state quickly.
In BUG she forms a great tag team with Jace. The two combined usually make the game end very quickly in your favor.

What I like about her in general is her flexibility:
- keeps Combo decks down so they have a much harder time coming back from your initial Discard. Thoughtseize/Therapy followed up by Liliana is much more devastating for them than Thoughtseize/Therapy followed up by creature pressure.
- a random Edict against Aggro, not very good but it helps
- backing up Deed/Decay/Fire by clearing what they can't hit (most notably Tombstalker from TA and Progenitus from Elves)
- she forces Miracle decks into a role that they are not designed to play, being active. Because if they can't deal with her quickly they lose to her ultimate.

I find Inquisition/Thoughtseize in general very close. I think Punishing lists can deal with the lifeloss a bit better than BUG so I chose IoK in BUG. It doesn't really matter I think, Thoughtseize is great, too.

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I never thought of the Jace/Lilliana interaction! Makes a lot of sense. (I just need three more. How many more boxes of bulk commons can I trade? That's the game I'm playing now.)

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Originally Posted by CalebD

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Shriekmaw was the only five drop I was consistently happy to pod up, but it's also dead vs a giant chunk of the field. Hmm. Has to be a good five drop vs spells out there. Like I really like the redcap/glen elendra split on the four drops.

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Congrats on the decent finish Caleb. I still think thragtusk is a good 5 drop to have access to. But maybe having access to 3 different 5 drops isn't a bad idea. For the anti-spell/combo creature Sadistic Hypnotist might be the best option. It is dependent on having creatures, but at the very least can sac itself. And if you have a finks,archmage or just a couple mana guys out, making your opponent immediately discard 4-8 cards seems pretty good. Other probably less good options are Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir+counterspells or Spiketail Drake.

@Recurring Nightmare: I didn't think of it but Caleb is right when he says that Nightmare gets better in Pod lists because these lists are full of tutorable value creatures. Caleb has Strix, Finks, Redcap, Archmage, Slime, Shriekmaw on top of the usual Witness, Explorer, Tusk and Titan. So it gets more powerful as well as eliminating the risk that the Nightmare is not good without interaction from the opponent because you don't have drawn useful creatures for it.
In general running a Nightmare is still a good option if you are confident to handle Shaman and have the creature base to support it.

Gratz @Caleb.

5-drop slot: I am fairly certain there is nothing useful in these colors. Reveillark is great but would require a splash and that is difficult.
I had 2 Archmages in my list to compensate for the lack of 5-drop spell control options and to have a third 4-drop. My problem with Hypnotist was that it was too inconsistent. I often didn't have enough random dorks around and never wanted to sac it to itself because then I'd have to start the Pod Chain all over again.
Meloku might be an option in the 5-Mana-slot. Doesn't solve any problems so that might be an issue but he should be good in general when he comes out of a Pod and you have a lot of mana and need quick big impact.

Mana Base: Shouldn't it be 3 Forest, 2 Island instead of 4/1?

5-drops
Blue
Body Double-Seems cute
Peregrine Drake-More ramp?
River Kelpie-This seems interesting....
Black
Morkrut Banshee-one time removal?
Ob Nixilis, the Fallen-Also mentioned before..another win con?
Puppeteer Clique-This one seems really nice.
Shadowborn Demon-Doesn't seem bad, bigger body then shriekmaw.
Green
Deranged Hermit-Of Course
Kodama of the North Tree-Nice Beatstick, 3g is a little harsh

Thoughts?

Caleb's article has sparked my interest in pod, but I have to admit I'm more interested in playing white instead of blue. White has voice, reveilark, and sun titan. I cut green sun zenith in favor of just playing more creatures, it's awkward to try to green sun for something and then pod on the same turn. This is a first draft of a list I came up with, it seems OK in the abstract, but if you guys have any suggestions let me know. It would be nice to have a way to discard elesh norn beyond therapy to rec-nightmare it in. I've thought about academy rector too but I'd rather just play more recurring nightmare. The deck looks super weak to combo game one.

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Voice of Resurgence (maybe strangleroot geist)
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Bone Shredder
1 Eternal Witness
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Acidic Slime
1 Reveillark
1 Sun Titan
1 Grave Titan
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

4 Birthing Pod
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Recurring Nightmare
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vindicate

3 Forest
2 Plains
3 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath

SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb

I also have to agree with caleb about thragtusk. I find the card incredibly underwhelming. He's flat out embarrassing against batterskull. I run into a lot of stoneblade decks in my meta, and when you ramp your opponent game one they have more than enough mana to equip batterskull to something or return it to their hand, so trading with a thragtusk is great for them not you. The life gain is relevant against burn and U/W delver but both of those decks really have no problem killing you before you get to 5 mana. U/W delver's daze and force in particular make thrag pretty bad. I don't know, I'm sure he's great against something but honestly I'm not in love with the card.

I experimented with White Pod but couldn't come up with a satisfying list. What I learned:

- Rector should be played at least as a 1-off. The option to tutor for Deed is too good to not use. Maybe also a Collective Blessing or a Primeval Bounty on top of Recurring Nightmare.
- In the SB you should play Orzhov Pontiff (Death and Taxes, Elves, Maverick, Goblins), Qasali Pridemage (Sneak Attack, Omnitell, Miracles, Blade) and Sin Collector (every Combo matchup).
- I don't think you need Elesh Norn. When would you ever want to sacrifice a Titan?
- also, why Vindicate and SB Pulses over Abrupt Decay?

Did you try to incorporate a combo kill in the Pod version? My inclination is that would be one of the major reasons to add Pod. GSZ does a perfectly fine job of fetching silver bullets as answers, but Pod does a better job of comboing creatures together. My other suspicion was the lack of Dryad Arbor (even without GSZ) since you're on green fetches and it can be used to Pod up DRS or Explorer. Were these ideas already tested?

I've actually been tinkering with the Pod shell for Thune for a little while now after being unhappy with Living Wish, and I've finally come to a testable list. Here's what I'm going to start testing with:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Voice of Resurgence
1 Strangleroot Geist
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Eternal Witness
1 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
2 Spike Feeder
1 Academy Rector
1 Murderous Redcap
1 [can't remember]
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Archangel of Thune
1 Sun Titan

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

3 Birthing Pod
3 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Diabolic Intent

mana base (same as I've used forever now)
3/3/2
3/2/1
3/3
2

//SB

3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Memoricide
1 Mindslicer
1 Sin Collector
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Batterskull
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Nether Void
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Nevermore

I wish I could remember what the third 4-drop was that I had laid out ._.

The things that GBW loses from BUG are Baleful Strix, Phantasmal Image (turn an Explorer into the best thing in play), Exarch (cheat on Pod chains), and perhaps most importantly Glen Elendra Archmage.

The early defense of Strix can be offset by additional lifegain (which happens to feed into the combo), as well as by a pair of Voice of Resurgence / Geist slots. I'm starting with them each at 1 because I don't know which will prove to be better.

Unfortunately, the other three don't really have good replacements. From white, though, we pick up the Archangel combo, Rector for easy Nightmare access, Sigarda, and a (IMO) better Titan. Both versions have respectable sideboard options, but I believe white narrowly wins thanks to Orzhov Pontiff + Nevermore, along with access to the combat planeswalkers to really brutalize fair decks.

I'll note that if I end up feeling adventurous, I may try 4 colors. It wouldn't be hard to add on like 1-2 blue duals and 1 island, and in exchange we could pick up Strix over Voice/Geist/1 STE, Exarch over 1 Spike Feeder or Kitchen Finks, and 1 Glen Elendra over whatever 4 drop I'm forgetting. Then, the sideboard could be composed of the best of both worlds -- the permanent hate of white, along with the stack disruption of blue. This approach may be better with Deathrite Shaman in the deck, which would likely include trade-offs elsewhere.

Ive been working on this BGw list

Pod Rock

Creatures [17]
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Strangleroot Geist
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Heons
1 Primeval Titan


Engine [10]
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Birthing Pod
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Diabolic Intent

Removals [9]
4 Path to Exile
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed

Discard [4]
4 Cabal Therapy

Lands [21]
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Verdant Catacomb
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

I think geist is better than voice because it persist... you dont want to sacrifice voice for a 3cmc creature

Theros has some cards that i think need consideration right now, in particular:

Xenagos: The 0 is pretty good and get stupid really fast (2, 6, 12, 20 damage, divided between several creatures). The Pro-white dragon has haste (good against JTMS and walkers in general), and pro-white mean they can't sword it (and he don't care about angel woo). Haste also mean sweepers would still take 4 damage before they can do anything about it. The monstrous ability is also something that you can sometimes activate in this kind of deck, and while extremely costly, it make him a 7/7 flier that can ping or bolt your opponent.
Destructive reverly is a possible sideboard card, but i don't think we really care about the 2 damage in this deck.

Maybe something like this?

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Veteran Explorer
1 StormBreath Dragon

3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Xenagos

4 Punishing Fire
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
2 Innocent Blood
2 Living Wish
2 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Treetop Village
3 Grove of the Burnwillows


SB: 1 Grove of the Burnwillows
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Wickerbough Elder
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Shriekmaw
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 Pyroblast


Punishing fires build are pretty good against Grixis and blood moon if you expect some of those after their recent success. Xenagos is an infinite stream of 2/2, and lifegain is not as important right now i feel so he get a nod over huntmaster. Xenagos also murder JTMS and most of Miracle decks if you manage to cast him. With 3 innocent bloods, Deed, DRS and punishing fires, RUG should be pretty easy too. You got the full 8 discard package for combo, hope that's enough pre-board, get 6 blast after board. The Wishboard is a relic and i've got no idea if i'd ever keep wish in the deck (it's cute for sure Grove and Maze i guess). StormDragon is basically unkillable by most of the top decks, barring double bolts, and sorcery speed removal still take 4 to the face. Monstrous is super costly but it's a nice perk in some games and you often have mana to spare lategame, giving you a sink.
Pernicious is amazing against elves, and most of the format really. Grixis basically fold to it, Elves fold to it, RUG fold to it, Blood Moon decks fold to it if they can't Blood Moon before you play it, Miracle can't play angels as long as it's down, and D&T also hate this shit. Only thing it isn't good against is Omniscience/S&T decks. You have the 8 discard package for it, plus blasts in the SB.

EDIT: wow forgot that AD was printed since i last played this deck. Maybe remove the wishboard entirely? Not having tutors may make the deck a bit too unconsistent...

I think Xenagos is worse than Garruk Relentless. While it is nice that his tokens have Haste at fighting other Planeswalkers, I think that shooting DR Shamans, Stoneforge Mystics, Delvers that would kill you or your own Explorers is better.
The new Dragon is interesting because it does not get hit by any spot removal except Dismember. But I still don't think he is what the deck wants. He is too small (unless you activate his overcosted, otherwise useless, Monstrosity ability) and if he gets Edicted by Liliana or Terminus'ed you gained nothing.

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Originally Posted by Tao

I think Xenagos is worse than Garruk Relentless. While it is nice that his tokens have Haste at fighting other Planeswalkers, I think that shooting DR Shamans, Stoneforge Mystics, Delvers that would kill you or your own Explorers is better.
The new Dragon is interesting because it does not get hit by any spot removal except Dismember. But I still don't think he is what the deck wants. He is too small (unless you activate his overcosted, otherwise useless, Monstrosity ability) and if he gets Edicted by Liliana or Terminus'ed you gained nothing.

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/barn

The one exception is that if one was to brew some kind of X-spell based Jund list with like Rosheen Meanderer, Rakdos's Return, Bonfire, Profane Command, GSZ, etc. In such a build, I could see Xenagos alongside ramp critters being decent, because Xenagos could help power out the huge X-spells that such a build would be based around. His ultimate is useless for us, sadly -- his merits are solely his +1 and his -0, and on those merits alone, he's worse than Relentless.

We don't even run Thundermaw. I don't think that Stormbreath is any better, at all. Pro-white is kind of cool, but he's too small to do anything meaningful with that protection. Flyers needs to be 5-power to matter, IMO (for us, obviously, not in general).

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Got in some between-rounds testing last night with Thune. Deck seemed pretty gross overall, although the creature selection needs refining. The missing 4-drop that I was forgetting was Trostani, because I felt like testing her out (and her synergy with Archangel is solid). Playable green 4-drops are pretty few and far between, sadly. I'm going to try to run Thune at my other local tomorrow night (yes, I have two locals. I'm spoiled), probably with a few changes to the creature base.

In other news, I really want some artifact hate in my board for Scape. I wish there was a Reverent Silence for artifacts ._. I'm not sure that I care enough to run Pulverize, but I'm getting tired of not having a Wishable artifact sweeper.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

/barn

The one exception is that if one was to brew some kind of X-spell based Jund list with like Rosheen Meanderer, Rakdos's Return, Bonfire, Profane Command, GSZ, etc. In such a build, I could see Xenagos alongside ramp critters being decent, because Xenagos could help power out the huge X-spells that such a build would be based around. His ultimate is useless for us, sadly -- his merits are solely his +1 and his -0, and on those merits alone, he's worse than Relentless.

We don't even run Thundermaw. I don't think that Stormbreath is any better, at all. Pro-white is kind of cool, but he's too small to do anything meaningful with that protection. Flyers needs to be 5-power to matter, IMO (for us, obviously, not in general).

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Got in some between-rounds testing last night with Thune. Deck seemed pretty gross overall, although the creature selection needs refining. The missing 4-drop that I was forgetting was Trostani, because I felt like testing her out (and her synergy with Archangel is solid). Playable green 4-drops are pretty few and far between, sadly. I'm going to try to run Thune at my other local tomorrow night (yes, I have two locals. I'm spoiled), probably with a few changes to the creature base.

In other news, I really want some artifact hate in my board for Scape. I wish there was a Reverent Silence for artifacts ._. I'm not sure that I care enough to run Pulverize, but I'm getting tired of not having a Wishable artifact sweeper.

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Vandalblast, Shatterstom and Shatter spree are the only red artifact sweepers I can think of. You also have creeping corrosion if you want to cast it on the same turn you tutor for it and you're worried about red mana availability.

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Originally Posted by rednose

Vandalblast, Shatterstom and Shatter spree are the only red artifact sweepers I can think of. You also have creeping corrosion if you want to cast it on the same turn you tutor for it and you're worried about red mana availability.

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Pulverize and Seeds of Innocence are the two that top my list. Pulverize is serious scorched earth tactics, and I don't think that the 'free' nature of the spell is worth the cost. Vandalblast could be a consideration, but the fact that two of the decks that I would want the card against (MUD and UBTezz) are both Chalice of the Void decks makes V-blast a little awkward.

You know, at the risk of sounding naive, I think I'm gonna test that new RG walker in Nic Fit. Backup ramp (sorta, if only we played more creatures), and a good stream of tokens, and if we ever get to ultimate him it could be... okay. Bah, I guess that's why he's not too good for us. Too many spells that aren't creatures in most lists (at least mine).

any thoughts on new spoiled reaper of the wild?

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Originally Posted by kabards

any thoughts on new spoiled reaper of the wild?

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She competes with Thrun and Huntmaster of the Fells.
I guess both are better since they do something uefull if and opponent have StP and :w: open.
Gorgon has Hexproof, but you better just drop Titan or Zenith=>Thragtusk for 6 mana.

could Erebos take the improve draw enchantment place on Rector builds? may even better with the ones that run pod?

I really like the idea of Erebos on birthing pod list. Could be the new draw engine

Played Thune's new shell last night, to a 2nd place finish at the local. Beat Shardless, lost to Reanimator (which took 1st), beat BUG Delver, beat Scapewish. Some thoughts...

The creatures definitely need tuned up. Pod was always disgusting when it was online, even when I only had 1 or 2 choices left in deck at any given point on the chains. Redcap was surprisingly solid -- he shot a couple Delvers, a couple Deathrites, and knocked a t2 Liliana off of ultimate so I could deal with it. Against Scape, my hand got tore apart via Therapy into Rakdos's Return, but I had landed a Pod, and I was able to combo before him just via Podding.

Rector -> Nightmare is as good as ever. Game 1 vs Shardless he had a solid hand, but he didn't have Deathrite, and Nightmare tore him a new one by itself.

Voice terrified the BUG Delver player, but was otherwise was fairly mediocre. It was nice that he was a solid roadblock early in the game, but I think there are probably better options. Sigarda, Thrag, and the Archangels were fine all night. Sun Titan never happened, but I liked having the security blanket of knowing that if my Nightmare and my Witness were both gone, the Titan could get them back. Might be just better as a 2nd Witness, but blahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

A whole lot of things never came up, actually. I hardly saw Spike Feeder, I never drew Diabolic Intent, I never drew the Strangleroot, etc. The deck overall was playing significantly more aggroish than I really liked. I mean, the white version has always had more of an aggro plan than the other colors, but I dunno. Some of that may be my creature choices. That said, I was overall much more pleased with the Birthing Pod shell than the Living Wish shell -- having full access to my sideboard was excellent. I'm going to take some time and refine the creature choices a bit, and then I'll present an updated Thune list.

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Erebos is strictly worse than Greed. We don't play Greed. Ergo, we shouldn't play Erebos. Keep in mind that we will never, EVER have Devotion to Black online for him. We're the only deck in legacy that actually has significant lifegain built in. Yes, he can be Podded into. But whether that's better than Podding into basically any other 4-drop that does basically anything, I'm not sure. As for Rectoring, I'm confidant that both Sylvan Bounty and Recycle are still better than Erebos. Erebos + Null Profusion might be kind of a thing, just because Erebos acts as a failsafe so you can't get draw-step-locked, plus it gives you 3/5 Devotion (between Erebos and Profusion), but ehhhhhhhhhhh. I really don't see it, guys.

https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h...12533769_n.jpg

Too cute or brute in a BUG list?

Decided to run this at a local weeknight legacy event to change things up, and since the deck plays two of my favorite cards of all time, Recurring Nightmare and Birthing Pod, it was a blast.

I couldn't find a Shadowborn Demon before the tourney, so I ran a Venser, Shaper Savant instead.

In a taking a quick look, I didn't notice any lists with him in it...any particular reason? He was pretty sweet as a catch-all answer.

I also like the idea of a Meloku over the Thragtusk...or at least searching for a more impactful 5-drop over Tusk.

Deck was sweet, I ran the 3 Pod/2 Recur split. Went 2-1-1, losing to RUG on a really bad punt from just being raw to the deck and a draw to a miracles player who played way too slow and I'm pretty sure I would've won the match given more time(being a weekly event, it's a rough situation to get pushy).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/h...12533769_n.jpg

Too cute or brute in a BUG list?

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Maybe if we weren't so reliant on GSZ to drop fatties after we ramp.

So I made a lot of test games with Punishing Nic Fit for the past days, optimized the version and wrote a little primer including matchups and SB plans for the decks in the DTB section. I feel very confident about the card choices and the strength of the deck in the current Meta.

Decklist:

2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Punishing Fire
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay

SB: 4 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Sylvan Ranger
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless


About the deck:

Punishing Nic Fit is a pure Control deck. It plays a lot of board and hand control elements and strives for conistency, card advantage and a powerful late game.

The first reason to play with Punishing Fire is of course the Punishing Fire - Grove of the Burnwillows Combo. In general getting value out of lands is an effect that Nic Fit desires because it helps you to do stuff with your mana and acts as flood protection. It kills the plethora of great 1-drops and 2-drops, keeps Tribal decks under control and gains value over the course of the game. Very importantly it also answers Planeswalkers, especially Jace TMS, who can be very problematic for Nic Fit.
The second reason to play this version are the Red Elemental Blasts and Slaughter Games from the Sideboard. They are exactly the cards you want to optimize your Sideboard plans and no other version of Nic Fit has SB cards as good as these. The biggest problems Nic Fit has are Combo decks and Jace the Mind Sculptor and the red SB cards help to fight these.

In the early game this version maximizes the chance of finding and triggering a Veteran Explorer with 4 Top and 4 Punishing Fire. It is not ideal to trigger Explorer with Punishing Fire but it will do if you need it. It also allows you to play no other mana creatures in the main that would either be inferior (Sakura Tribe Elder, Sylvan Ranger) or get killed 3/4 of the time (DR Shaman). Just don't blindly ramp against decks with Jace without anything to follow up, especially against Miracles.

In the midgame you have the full amount of Sensei's Tops to make sure you draw the right ratio of mana and spells as well as the right type of spells. As a nonblue ramp deck this is very important because draws with 3 Explorers are as bad as draws with too little mana. You have a lot of removal to make sure you can keep the board under control. You have Fire and Decay to get rid of early Confidants, Deathrite Shamans and Delvers, Deed as a reset button and Liliana can act as additional removal or kill things like Tombstalker or Progenitus that you otherwise can't kill. Liliana of the Veil is very good in this list in general. Her Discard ability is great against Miracle decks and Combo decks and less harmful for this than it is for other Nic Fit lists because you can Discard Punishing Fire to her. The 4 Tops and the high chance of getting Explorer to trigger allows you to empty your hand quickly in case you don't have the Combo. Forcing both players into topdeck mode is not a bad thing, especially if you have a Top, tick up a Liliana and strong cards in your deck.

As GSZ targets for the midgame you have either Huntmaster as a simple solid value guy, Thrun to pressure Planeswalkers or Witnesses to recycle Removal or Discard spells.

In the late game this version is designed to win with Primeval Titan. Your main way of sealing the deal against fair decks is to get a Titan into play. He will get a combination of Kessig Wolf Run, Two Towers and Groves for your Punishing Fires. Unless you are too far behind already a resolved Titan should be better than anything other fair decks do. Groves and Two Towers are good at grinding out the game while Kessig Wolf Run will turn Thrun into an evil machine and kill the opponent very quickly.


Matchups:


Miracles

- the game plays out different than other fair matchups because with Jace TMS and Entreat they have big threats, too. So don't use your Explorers carelessly or they will backfire. In G1 you usually want to trigger an Explorer with Therapy at least once but do it a bit later, more carefully and when you know you have a strong follow-up.
- Top is awesome, keep it around, don't lose it to Counterbalance. Don't risk flipping it for no good reason.
- Spend your early turns building up towards your game plans. Decay and Deed are important to keep Counterbalance off the table, try to get a Liliana into play.
- Liliana is amazing. They have a hard time dealing with her. If you have Fire-Grove going that's ideal but even if you don't, build up to her ultimate.
- Use Fire/Grove and Thrun to pressure/kill Jace.
- If you are able to take control of the game try to have a Deed in play to not lose to Entreat the Angels.

Postboard you have a bit of a transformational SB plan. You take out all your Explorers and Therapies because ramping both sides is not that good. There is a Sylvan Ranger in the SB so you have a way to get Mana from early GSZ's. You get Red Blasts which are awesome in this matchup because they can kill Jace on the stack as well as Slaughter Games to take care of their win conditions (Jace and Entreat).

- 4 Explorer
- 4 Therapy
- 1 Scavenging Ooze
- 1 Punishing Fire
- 1 Phyrexian Tower
+ 4 Red Blast
+ 2 Thoughtseize
+ 2 Slaughter Games
+ 1 Sylvan Ranger
+ 1 Decay
+ 1 Garruk Relentless


RUG
This matchup is almost exclusively about overcoming their Mana Denial. Stifle is the by far their best card against us because it hits Explorer triggers, Deeds and Fetchlands. Cabal Therapy should usually either go for Brainstorm or for Stifle, depending on the situation.
The matchup is very positive overall. Explorers are great against their denial plan and the deck approximately has one removal for each threat they play.
Post board not much changes, but it gets even a little better. You don't get any insane cards but little upgrades. This is the only matchup in which you side out Huntmaster because he doesn't size up well against their deck. Red Blast can slow down their cantripping, kill a Delver or protect a trigger from Stifle.
Normal RUG lists don't have much to bring in, they might bring Submerge instead of Bolt so if you use a fetchland with an Explorer in play they might shuffle it away, so play around that if you have the chance to but don't worry too much.

- 1 Huntmaster of the Fells
- 3 Punishing Fire
- 2 Thoughtseize
+ 1 Abrupt Decay
+ 1 Sylvan Ranger
+ 4 Red Elemental Blast


Shardless
They are stronger early on but you have the better late game. It is often about recovering from Hymn and Liliana and building up your Mana. You can overcome some card disadvantage with card quality. Your goal is to resolve a Titan so you can go over the top of what they do. Fire-Grove can kill eveything except Goyfs so that is good.
This is one of the few matchups in which you side out your Lilianas. Her discard doesn't match up well against Ancestral Visions, her Edict ability is bad against Shardless Agents and she dies to Decay. Red Blast is great because it can hit Vision, Jace and Brainstorm.

- 1 Eternal Witness
- 2 Thoughtseize
- 3 Liliana of the Veil
+ 1 Abrupt Decay
+ 1 Garruk Relentless
+ 4 Red Elemental Blast


SnT
Preboard is your worst matchup besides 12-Post or Stage/Depths Combo decks, though with 2 Thoughtseizes and 3 Lilianas in addition to Therapies you have the Tools to steal G1 wins from them.
Postboard it gets much better, the matchup gets at least even. Red Blast and Slaughter Games are amazing. They bring in the White Leyline so side in the Golgari Charms for that. Charm can also hit idle Sneak Attacks which are not uncommon and a great danger if you manage to keep them on 0 cards with Liliana. The White Leyline is obviously very strong against us but that is not the biggest concern. It is their matchup to lose. If they Mulligan for it, have Multiples or keep bad hands because of it you might be able to win with Red Blasts, Surgicals and Liliana.

- 2 Abrupt Decay
- 4 Punishing Fire
- 3 Pernicious Deed
- 1 Thragtusk
- 1 Primeval Titan
- 1 Veteran Explorer
- 1 Stronghold
+ 4 Red Blast
+ 2 Slaughter Games
+ 2 Thoughtseize
+ 2 Surgical
+ 2 Golgari Charm
+ 1 Sylvan Ranger


Elves!
You play Fire and Deed so the matchup isn't the worst but it is certainly not easy either. They can kill you with Glimpse and Order quickly and Symbiote can also get out of control quickly. But if you survive the early turns and you get Fire/Grove going you are in a good position. Liliana is an important tool here because her "+1" ability prevents them from storing Elves and then going off with a topdecked Glimpse. Her Edict can also be useful as simple extra removal but more importantly to get rid off a big thing they GSZ'ed for. Sideboarding doesn't change much but it you get a couple of nice cards.

- 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
- 1 Thragtusk
- 2 Explorer
- 1 Scavenging Ooze
- 1 Kessig Wolf Run
+ 2 Golgari Charm
+ 2 Thoughtseize
+ 1 Garruk Relentless
+ 1 Abrupt Decay


Jund
The matchup plays very similar to the Shardless matchup. Jund might overrun you with DR Shaman, Hymn, Confidant and Liliana but you have tools to fight back. If the game goes long and nothing went wrong you should have an edge because thanks to Titan you have more Fire/Grove and because with Two Towers + Thragtusk you won't die.
Post board not much changes because both decks have not much useful to bring in. You should side out the Lilianas, they are awful against Jund.

- 3 Liliana of the Veil
+ 1 Thoughtseize
+ 1 Garruk Relentless
+ 1 Abrupt Decay


AnT
Similarly to SnT decks you can steal wins in G1 but it is not easy. The key cards are your Discard spells, Liliana and Scavenging Ooze.
G2 gets much, much better. More Discard and more disruption instead of the many clunky cards from G1. The Red Blasts slow down their cantripping, especially the Brainstorm in response to Discard. For Empty the Warrens you keep the Deeds in. They are better than Golgari Charm because they can't be discarded anymore once they are on the battlefield and they can blow up idle LED's and Petals (which are not a rare sight due to Liliana).

- 2 Abrupt Decay
- 4 Punishing Fire
- 1 Volrath's Stronghold
- 1 Explorer
- 1 Thrun, the Lats Troll
- 1 Thragtusk
- 1 Primeval Titan
+ 4 Red Elemental Blast
+ 2 Slaughter Games
+ 2 Surgical Extraction
+ 2 Thoughtseize
+ 1 Sylvan Ranger


Death and Taxes
This is not a bye like it looks on paper but you do have a clear edge and should be able to kill all their creatures with Fire, Decay, Liliana and Deed.
Post board the matchup gets a bit worse. They bring Rest in peace which is very good but most importantly they have Cataclysm which is the real threat. Be aware of that and - if you have the chance to do so - keep lands in hand, Basic Lands in the deck and an Explorer on the battlefield. On the other hand you get Golgari Charm which is also a blowout (it kills Mother or Runes, Thalia, Revoker, Mindcensor, Flickerwisp and Mangara).

- 1 Thoughtseize
- 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
- 1 Scavenging Ooze
- 1 Thragtusk
+ 2 Golgari Charm
+ 1 Abrupt Decay
+ 1 Sylvan Ranger


Deathblade
They want to play a fair game but you are better at that than they are. Punishing Fire kills everything they have, Therapy is great against Stoneforge Mystic and Deeds are also great. If the game goes long you have the better late game thanks to your Titan.
Post board not much changes. Red Blasts are okay, they get Jace and Brainstorm, but I don't think you want all 4 because they do nothing early on against Shaman, Mystic and Confidant. They won't have anything that is significantly better than any of their maindeck cards, either. Side out all Lilianas at the first sight of Lingering Souls.

+ 2 Red Elemental Blast
+ 1 Garruk Relentless
+ 1 Abrupt Decay
- 2 Thoughtseize
- 1 - 1 Scavenging Ooze

Very good primer, Tao!

New to the deck putting together a gbw pod version very similar to arianrhod my questions are is thrun and sigarda too redundant and if so should thrun be a wickerbourgh elder? If not what would my third four drop be.

Second question might be noobish(well definetly is) but I am correct in thinking I can sac shriek maw in response to the evoke trigger to pod into a titan if so would it be better to just play a fourth five drop and play two shriekmaw?

Third question I have a deathrite shaman and glissa where sakura tribe elder is how important is the two drop slot currently I only have ooze and 2 strangleroot giests with the ooze in place of diabolic intent.

Fourth and final question my only rector targets are deed is this right or should I be dropping her keeping thrun and adding elder or baloth to keep just ticking up the life total? thanks in advance

@Ayotte,

I saw potential in Phophet of Kruphix as well. I think she might have a home in a BUG Fit list with mainboard FoW and Far // Away. This way, you could go on about casting your usual business while untapping to hardcast FoW or some straight up Counterspells. It also opens up a lot of mana during your opponent's turn for Far // Away and Cryptic Command tricks with Eternal Witness. All your creatures get Vigilance and giving Eternal Witness Flash with some counterspells in the yard turns her into a snapcaster.

Currently 2-0 at philly. Beat uwr delver and burn. Steve is 1-1 with thune. I've also seen a bug pod version as well, who said he's from the source.

@ Prophet of Kuphrix: I actually think it has a lot of potential usefulness in a BUG list, and here's why...

1) Obviously more mana is always great. While it can't be used on casting GSZ for creatures, that's not really a huge issue, at least IMO.

2) Flashing into Baleful Strix or Coiling Oracle EOT seems really good, particularly since it's just going to generate more and more CA. Can also do some really cute things with flashing Strix in in response to attackers, or using it with Academy Ruins and a second Strix to chain through several before/after combat.

3) You can tap out and still retain control of the game even without FoW. IMO if you run Prophet you are actually less likely to be in favor of running FoW MD, simply because you can retain control later on with non-free counters so long as Prophet is out there. You obviously still want it in the SB, but I think the better option would be to relegate it entirely to there.


If only it let you cast everything as thought it had Flash, but at that point it would probably be way too good with GSZ...

3-1. Beat uwr delver again, then lost to mud.

Ugh. Looks like philly is overrun with show and tells. Card is getting a little annoying.

Go Arian. Avoid those SnT decks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by uncletiggy

New to the deck putting together a gbw pod version very similar to arianrhod my questions are is thrun and sigarda too redundant and if so should thrun be a wickerbourgh elder? If not what would my third four drop be.

Second question might be noobish(well definetly is) but I am correct in thinking I can sac shriek maw in response to the evoke trigger to pod into a titan if so would it be better to just play a fourth five drop and play two shriekmaw?

Third question I have a deathrite shaman and glissa where sakura tribe elder is how important is the two drop slot currently I only have ooze and 2 strangleroot giests with the ooze in place of diabolic intent.

Fourth and final question my only rector targets are deed is this right or should I be dropping her keeping thrun and adding elder or baloth to keep just ticking up the life total? thanks in advance

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- I don't think you want Thrun in a Pod list because he doesn't give you value when you sac him for a 5-drop. Murderous Redcap and Academy Rector are 4-drop cards I'd want to play in any white Pod version.
- You can't use Birthing Pod "in response" at all. You can only use in when the stack is empty. So that trick doesn't work.
- I don't think you need Tribe Elder in a Pod deck.
- At least one enchantment that does something to advance the board would be a good idea. Depending on the version Recurring Nightmare, Primeval Bounty and Collective Blessing are options.

Wheels fell off. 3-3 now....deck has proceeded to start doing the no-land/all-land dance. Disappointed that with such a strong finish, I'm playing for 50 bucks. Pretty fucking lame.

Dead by storm. Details tomorrow.

Haven't actually seen any show and tell around me....even when I was at th top tables earlier. Must be the scg pros who are getting feature matches I guess.

First scg I haven't cashed in a good while now...pretty bummed.

http://topdecker.gr/mtg-news/3108-th...hen-rider.html

So...seems like an upgrade to Angel of Despair in the board.

Well...that's gross.
http://media.wizards.com/images/magi...svwB_EN_LR.jpg

Arian, were you playing scape or thune?