Not that I am suggesting this but if you wanted a tutor in the board I would probably play the grim main along with 3 infernals and the 4th infernal in the board
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Not that I am suggesting this but if you wanted a tutor in the board I would probably play the grim main along with 3 infernals and the 4th infernal in the board
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I feel like some of you are blowing Cabal Ritual way out of proportion here. You are aware you dont have to go for thresh and you can just use it as a black Desperate Ritual, right? It's still +1 mana, like a Chrome Mox would be, but in matchups where you have to go long, it gives you extra options. Postboard, if my Patriot or Stoneblade opponent goes "Island, go" its a good bet I'll be taking some time to Wish for Tutor/protection and likely will go off Turn 3 and enjoy having extra mana to play around Spell Pierce. But its not like if my Elf opponent goes "Forest, Symbiote, go" I wouldnt just slam my hand down their throat, threshold be damned. Cabal Rit and "preboarding" the 4th Infernal Tutor to the SB give you extra options against Blue control that has been giving Storm decks extra trouble every since TNN made it easy for them to handle fair decks. This does come with some slight decrease in the number of t1 Ad Nauseams or Warrens, but its an adjustment for the meta and what that means is trading percentage points in less relevant matchups for points in more relevant matchups.
that's an excellent point. i like being greedy about cabal ritual, but forgetting it's a (inefficient) +1 made me lose some games i played. some times, you just gotta warrens them and see that is it about.Quote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
I tried swapping the 4th IT to the maindeck when i played against some "we gotta kill them t2" decks (jund, goblins)... didn't feel much difference in those particular games, but i guess that cant be all that bad, right?
I think that here your metagame kicks in. If you are playing in SCG tourneys only with all their Multi-format Gründers which prefer the easy, streamlined decks like Delver, this point of view is valid and nothing new, but in Europe you see a lot more Miracles, D&T and BUG decks with Hymn, all matchups in which the slower approach with only 3 IT but CR's can bite your assQuote:
Originally Posted by wonderPreaux
against DnT the boarded IT is the difference between having 10 business cards to go off early vs 9, which is 74% in your opener vs 70% and against Miracles and BUG youd board the 4th tutor out anyway. for BUG, the ability to have a really stellar ritual for PiF also helps against discard when their fast clocks make IT -> Ad Nauseam less effective as well. Miracles is also pretty popular lately in the SCG circuit and America, so I dont think Bryant wouldve discounted it in his changes either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
If your meta is full of Jund/DnT or other hymm/hatebears to the point where Diminishing Returns could be good (because part of the reason for sided IT is that Burning Wish otherwise couldnt be a storm engine now that Diminishing Returns and Ill-Gotten Gains are outdated) and that 4% difference is VERY relevant... then just dont play Cabal Rit. Switch Rits in main for an IT and 3rd Chrome Mox, board a Diminishing Returns and call it a day. I think Bryant said it before, you dont HAVE to play his list and his list is likely metagaming for the general SCG or tourney meta, apply your own conditions as needed.
Of course we don't HAVE to play Bryants list. But what's thr point of a forum if we aren't allowed to discuss deck changes? Bryant is the one person who had ALL rights to change the list to whatever he likes it to become, for better or for worse. And I'll be here telling him I like his changes. Or that I dislike them. I know his contribution to the deck, and I will never tell him to shut up or to stop innovating. I will, however, mention his changes that I disagree with.
I strongly feel that we are trying to adapt to the meta with the wrong deck. If the Discard spells, the sheer power level of Cabal Ritual and the certainty of Past in Flames are what gets the Storm mechanic to win games, we should make sure we utilise those as well as we can. And we will, if we admit we should be using Basics, Fetch Lands and Cabal Ritual in an ANT shell.
If we decide we need something new all together, I am very willing to cough up a new list. Heck, why not do so right now?
NOTE: I am just throwing this in here. I have never played this. It's just an idea.
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Ponder
4 Burning Wish
3 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony /21
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
3 Cabal Ritual /19
3-4 Duress
3-4 Cabal Therapy /7
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
8 UBR Fetch /13
Side:
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames.
1 Reforge the Soul
0-1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Cabal Therapy/Duress
1 Thoughtseize.
1 Grapeshot
1 New Sorcery Bounce Card (forgot the name)
2 Pyroblast
2 Chain of Vapor
0-2 (meta slot)
0-1 Ad Nauseam /15
I'm not really sure I understand the direction of this deck. It is becoming fragile ANT, and I don't see the pros of playing the current list over an ANT build that runs a more stable manabase and more fetches. Before this list the deck was a better Belcher deck, and that was pretty cool if you were into that kind of thing. Burning Wish ANT was already a deck, and I'm not sure it fits into the "TES" shell at all.
Pretty funny as I tried out the idea to jam together all 3 Rituals earlier this year too. Sadly the result was that you don't want to go for AN unless you have 1-2 mana float, otherwise the odds of continuing the combo with less initial mana but a higher average cmc of the cards revealed to AN will force You to pass the turn very often. This is basically the reason AN is considered a "draw 7" only in ANT. Ergo the increased number of Rituals made the deck slower with a pretty mana-flooded midgame in which PIF was miles better than AN (in case I wasn't dying because all I drew was mana)Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Maybe you missed the fact that I cut Ad Nauseam from the main deck I posted? :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I only added it to the board as a 0-1 (meaning take it if you want it, otherwise leave it). If I play the deck the way I posted, I would probably play an Ad Nauseam and 1-2 Chrome Mox on side for the non-blue matchups and so I can switch Empty with Ad Nauseam against Miracles.
But discussing this is probably very off topic anyway, because the list I posted is by no means an Epic Storm list. It probably comes closer to the Grinding Station deck qua playing style.
You are right. i totally missed it xDQuote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Just because I run the 4th Infernal Tutor, 4th Chrome Mox and Thoughtseize MD doesn't mean I don't think there are other viable configurations, I think the number of Infernal Tutors and Chrome Moxes are relative to how many counters and Wastelands you expect to face in your metagame, one of the things I've been experimenting with is cutting Green, replacing Gemstone Mines with Fetchlands and playing an Island with more lands in the SB.
I haven't been very impressed by the miser's Cabal Ritual, I generally just want lands.
I've been gone all weekend, I opted to go to GP:Chicago.
This thread is jut chock full of whining, I understand that some people dislike change. If you don't like my changes, just don't play them. But I'm actively trying to find the highest success rates and right now with in heavy blue metagame Cabal Ritual is better than the additional land and a third Chrome Mox. If the metagame changes and decks like Death and Taxes, Jund or Burn with Eidelon become popular, then it would be right to switch back. They're metagame changes people.
One of the issues with this thread is I'm beginning to wonder if people know what they're talking about at all anymore. Cabal Ritual is bad against discard decks? What?
I played against UWr and BUG Delver over the weekend, I was thrilled every time I drew Cabal Ritual and it wasn't a Chrome Mox. I also never once saw a lack of power in Ad Nauseam. Notably because casting Ad Nauseam with mana floating is just as good as revealing a Chome Mox.
🙏Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Amen
If you guys are interested in another change, I'm cutting Pyroblast for another Chain of Vapor and a third Abrupt Decay. With Eideleon becoming more and more popular I want more answers (mainly a second Chain), with this our Miracles match-up weakens which is why I'm adding the third Decay back in. As for sideboarding versus UWr decks. I think bringing in Grapeshot or Tendrils (Your choice) is a fine solution to Meddling Mage.
Hey there, everyone. As promised, I decided to go ahead and try the Cabal Rituals in the main, took it into a Daily Event on MTGO. I kept an eye out for situation where Cabal Ritual came up and noted whether it would've been better or worse as a Chrome Mox or a land (unfortunately, its online, so its not as though I couldn't somehow note the cards to know which would've been the land or the Mox etc). I went in a fan of these changes, and I wanted to put a little money where my mouth was. Next up, I'll be testing with no Pyroblast and an additional copy of Chain of Vapor and Abrupt Decay, just because I do encounter a fair amount of Burn online.
Unfortunately, I've still not unpacked all my stuff after moving, so I couldn't stream the event. Enjoy this mini-report in it's place, hopefully I can shed a little light on how effectual, positively or negatively, the Cabal Rituals were. 33 player event, dailies are always 4 rounds on MTGO. It's an admittedly small sample size, but a little data is better than none at all. Luckily, being at my comp let me take a lot of notes.
Round 1 - Death and Taxes
Game 1: Opponent leads off with Plains into Aether Vial, passing back to me. I launch a Gitaxian Probe, seeing equipment, a couple Aven Mindcensors, a land and a Thalia. I throw around some mana before using a Burning Wish to find 14 Goblins off Empty the Warrens. The opponent can't beat 14 Goblins and concedes. Cabal Ritual never came up.
Sideboarding:
- 3 Duress
- 2 Ponder
+ 1 Infernal Tutor
+ 1 Thoughtseize
+ 1 Chain of Vapor
+ 1 Abrupt Decay
+ 1 Tropical Island
Game 2: Opponent heads on in with Rishadan Port into Aether Vial and passes. I mimic my last opening too with Gitaxian Probe, revealing Thalia, Port, and no white sources among the other cards. I then throw some mana around, Cabal Ritual included, Emptying the Warrens for 14 via Burning Wish once more. It's worth noting I emptied my hand too, meaning a Chrome Mox would've been as useless as a land when it comes to trying to go off turn 1. Bricking here would've led to a painful Rishadan Porting at least, or a topped white source could invite a Thalia to eat all my cookies. Cabal Ritiual, even though I didn't get to hit Threshold, was exactly what I needed to play the Belcher role here. 10 min round 1.
Round 2 - UWR Delver
Game 1: My hand has no Cabal Rituals, but it does have a turn 1 play of Lion's Eye Diamond and Infernal Tutor into Ad Nauseam. Being on the play, I just decide to jam it, no fear. With only 1 land and no cantrips, it's not like the hand would get better fighting other counters anyway and 20 life Ad Nauseams are beautiful. The opponent doesn't have Force of Will and doesn't concede to the Gitaxian Probe that follows my Ad Nauseam; 2 big mistakes, I suppose. The opponent reveals Scalding Tarn, Flooded Strand, True-Name Nemesis, Stifle, Daze, Sword of Fire and Ice, and Umezawa's Jitte: UWR Delver without the secondary or tertiary colors. I do some stuff and dunk, no Cabal Rituals, sorry.
Sideboarding:
- 2 Ponder
+ 2 Pyroblast
Game 2: I keep an ok hand, the opponent kept a one-lander with some graveyard hate, which would end up being irrelevant as I never saw a Cabal Ritual and he never cast the Rest in Peace, only a Graffdigger's Cage. The opponent leads with a Delver of Secrets and later flips it revealing Force of Will, complicating matters. I Ponder revealing Burning Wish, Empty the Warrens and Burning Wish. I have to go off the turn after, an earlier Duress on another Force of Will revealed the opponent has no other counters, blue cards, or lands, though their next draw could be a counter or a blue card. I get struck to 13 by Insectile Aberration and the opponent passes with one untapped Tundra, the Graffdigger's Cage, Insectile Aberration and a hand of: 1 unknown, Force of Will, Lightning Bolt, Stoneforge Mystic and Rest in Peace. I draw and between Lion's Eye Diamond, Burning Wish and Empty the Warrens, I have 3 options, depending on how safe I want to be:
1: Use Burning Wish for Thoughtseize, follow with Empty the Warrens. This plays around all counters, conserves a Lion's Eye Diamond and Lotus Petal for the next Burning Wish on top and produces a lot of Goblins.
2: Bait counters with a midsized Empty the Warrens, follow with Burning Wish to Empty the Warrens again. This plays around Flusterstorm only if they throw it at the first Empty the Warrens, Force of Will on Burning Wish would leave me with a very shaky clock, though. If the opponent has nothing this option gives the opponent one turn fewer compared to option 1 if successful, which is the allure.
3: Jam all the mana into a Burning Wish and try to Tendrils out. This wins right away, 2 turns before option 1 and 1 turn before option 2, but plays around absolutely no counters.
With the opponent stuck on one land and a 4 turn clock as is, I decide to play it safe and run option 1. Thoughtseize nabs Stoneforge Mystic after revealing nothing of consequence, and I produce 16 Goblins with the in-hand Empty the Warrens. With 2 lands, a Lotus Petal, and Lion's Eye Diamond, I'm pretty secure at 11 life, because I can grab Grapeshot or Massacre to stem damage, or even Tendrils for 2 in a pinch. The opponent continues to draw dead and loses. While Rest in Peace would've made Cabal Ritual lackluster (if they could cast it and I had Cabal Ritual, neither of which happened), the real issue was just making sure I could resolve spells when they mattered. Also I was, once again, strapped for cards and storm-count to the point where Chrome Mox or a land, respectively, wouldn't be very welcome at the time even if the issue of Rest in Peace had reared its head.
Round 3 - UR Delver
Game 1: The opponent leads with Grim Lavamancer off of a Volcanic Island, revealing their deck choice. I actually kept a no-lander because it contained Lotus Petal, Rite of Flame, Gitaxian Probe, Burning Wish, Brainstorm and 2 Lion's Eye Diamonds, the logic being I would either go off or find a land. I resigned myself to the latter when my Gitaxian Probe revealed a Force of Will and Snapcaster Mage amidst a Goblin Guide, Ponder and land. The Gitaxian Probe drew me another Lotus Petal, so I hope to use the Ponder off of Lotus Petal to draw out an aggressive Force of Will and win or at least find a land. Again, I had to settle for the latter. I spend a turn cantripping and hitting another land, then soak some damage, falling to 13. On turn 4 I Brainstorm, placing a second Burning Wish on top. I use my first Burning Wish to play a subsequent Thoughtseize, my opponent assumes I'm not going off this turn and Brainstorms to protect the Force of Will, revealing a pair of Lightning Bolts, lands, and a Ponder. I then lay down the 2 Lion's Eye Diamonds, use Gitaxian Probe to crack both Lion's Eye Diamonds and Burning Wish into Tendrils of Agony for lethal. No Cabal Rituals involved.
Sideboarding:
- 2 Ponder
+ 2 Pyroblast
Game 2: Here my greed catches up to me as I keep another hand of shaky mana due to the allure of in-hand Ad Nauseam and Pyroblast. The opponent leads with Delver of Secrets. I Duress a Force of Will, seeing Swan Song and Snapcaster Mage among some lands and red cards. On the following upkeep my opponent yields an Insectile Aberration by revealing another Force of Will right off the top. I struggle for a while, stuck on mana, my opponent deploys a Goblin Guide when my Pyroblast hits his Insectile Aberration. I end up dying in the face of multiple counters. In retrospect it was probably a mistake to keep such an unstable hand as I could play through very little and Ad Nauseam isn't at it's best against a Delver deck packing extra burn. My bad, guys.
Sideboarding:
No additional changes
Game 3: I lead off with a Duress that strikes a Flusterstorm, revealing a couple lands, a Relic of Progenitus, Delver of Secrets and Ponder. The opponent decides to Ponder and pass, I decide to exploit that with a Cabal Therapy on Delver of Secrets. I end up hitting 2, which were likely going to come down the following turn with Ponder setup. Luckily, I managed to deny such a clock, and the opponent resigns to cantrips and Relic of Progenitus. I'm looking at my double Cabal Rituals and recognizing I'll never be able to hit Threshold on either. However, I ended up laying quite a few lands to exploit this clockless state, so another land or a Chrome Mox would actually be worse (in fact, another fetch would be useless as I ended up needing to fetch up all my duals). I move in with a Cabal Therapy on Flusterstorm, only to see a Force of Will and 2 Snapcaster Mage as my opponent's remaining cards, I would have to get very creative here because I would need far too much discard otherwise. Over the next 2 turns the opponent lands a Delver of Secrets and flips it. Meanwhile I used Burning Wish to try and draw a counter on one turn, ending up with Empty the Warrens, and then on the following turn replicated the Empty the Warrens with Infernal Tutor. On turn 8 the opponent taps down to Snapcaster a cantrip. This surprises me, as he would only have the Force and one unknown card (he revealed another Force to flip his Delver of Secrets, but cracked a fetchland to find an unknown card, as 2 Force of Wills aren't that great against double Force of Will) to protect himself. I ramp up with Rite of Flame and 2 Cabal Rituals (neither had Threshold as my grave was being sapped every turn) and cast the first Empty the Warrens. The opponent only had 2 mana open, so they couldn't Snapcaster Mage a Flusterstorm, the Empty the Warrens resolved. I then flashback a Cabal Therapy to build storm and cut off his other Snapcaster Mage from being used as a cantripping blocker, the opponent then reveals their own trick by responding with a punishing Price of Progress. I eat 10 damage (like I said, land or Chrome Mox wouldn't have been helpful with the amount of lands I'd been stuck with), and followup with another Cabal Therapy on Force of Will, to build storm. I then lay the last Warrens and pass with 22 Goblins and 4 life. The opponent draws, swings with Insectile Aberration and Snapcaster Mage, I block and fall to 1. On my turn, the opponent cracks Relic of Progenitus and... doesn't hit a burn spell. I managed to salvage the match with a double Empty the Warrens that I'd never used before, so I feel like I made up for my sloppy keep last game. Moreover, the big issue here was, again, not about maximizing rituals, but about getting spells to resolve. The Cabal Rituals, though they weren't at their best, were still better than a land or Chrome Mox. If you need further convincing, note how useless another land would be here: http://puu.sh/9HqUa/066960cf44.jpg
Round 4 - Ad Nauseam Tendrils
Game 1: The opponent is on the play and goes in with Lotus Petal, followed by Dark Ritual and Duress. Oh boy, the turn 1 no-lander protected kill? I F6 and sit back as the opponent continues with Dark Ritual, Infernal Tutor to double Lion's Eye Diamond, 2 Lion's Eye Diamonds and an Infernal Tutor for Past in Flames. My eyes glaze a bit as the Duress is flashback'd, and then I situp with a start... the opponent has 3 black mana floating, 1 card in hand, and no rituals left. The opponent played one spell too far and had given the game away. I then leisurely setup as the opponent has nothing and I only had to build back from double Duress. I go off turn 4 with double Cabal Ritual, with Threshold, into an incredible Ad Nauseam. You wouldn't get this kind of mileage from an extra land or a Chrome Mox, that's for sure. I show him how to really combo out with a 16 count Tendrils.
Sideboarding:
- 1 Empty the Warrens
+ 1 Tendrils of Agony
Game 2: I keep a solid hand that is one Dark Ritual or Lion's Eye Diamond away from turn 1 Ad Nauseam off of Infernal Tutor, it also boasts a Ponder to find more business if the opponent has discard turn 1. The opponent leads with Tropical Island into Ponder, no discard. I cantrip for my turn and still don't get there. The opponent then Brainstorms, fetches an Underground Sea and Ponders. Being unmolested by discard for so long, I simply lay my third land, cast a Lotus Petal and a Lion's Eye Diamond, and then launch Infernal Tutor into Ad Nauseam. I pay all the way down to 4 life, yet I only found Infernal Tutor, no Tendrils of Agony, and no Lion's Eye Diamond to get hellbent to find the Tendrils of Agony. However, I have a Ponder to find my 4 outer (3 Lion's Eye Diamonds and a Tendrils of Agony), and Cabal Ritual to give me enough mana to launch the fairly secure backup plan of 4 discard spells and nearly 30 Goblins, which is probably lethal in over 99% of cases. I Ponder and hit the Tendrils, what a lucky guy. Again, land wouldn't have gotten me there, and another Chrome Mox would, at best, give me another Ponder to play at the cost of the black mana, and thus discard spells, that made Empty the Warrens such a secure backup plan.
So that is my testing of the Cabal Ritual build, a nifty little 4-0, with a few bad plays and a few good plays. Ultimately, I never felt like I wanted a land or a Chrome Mox, Cabal Ritual seemed to be a better card on average. Even in the midst of the Relic or threat of Thalia I was still perfectly happy to accept my +1 black mana, and when I actually hit it on Threshold it gave me enough mana to do some real crazy stuff. I'll keep on testing the new changes, including the removal of Pyroblasts, later on. Hope this was useful. Thanks for reading.
Thanks alot for the report ,pretty entertaining :)
So you never cast cabal ritual with ******** right?
Looks like it was always just like a pyretic ritual.
But well i'm not a huge fan of chrome mox anyway so i would definately prefer cabal ritual.
There are so many games were i don't have any card to imprint in my hand ( and you really don't wanna imprint a ritual for instance)
Sorry if it wasn't clear, but I hit threshold for Cabal Rituals in both games playing against ANT. I think it really excels in the storm mirror, since there's an turn or two spent cantripping or exchanging discard spells. I agree, though, that it was often just a black Pyretic Ritual. Though when you're comboing out the fact that it doesn't cost a card and is always playable is pretty significant, imo. It's also better for Past in Flames, though that didn't come up.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawatarix
Ah,missed it.
Pif is great to have but is not our plan a).
having access to ad nauseam with mana floating seems great.
And if not,6 initial mana sources (4 peals and 2 Chrome mox) are enough to continue the combo after an ad nauseam without mana floating.
In my opinion we never need more than 2 chrome mox in the deck,let's cut bad cards from the deck and replace them with good ones.
Well, I wouldn't call Chrome Mox a bad card, I wouldn't wanna go overboard there. Its more like a necessary evil, which is why the marginal value pretty steeply declines. I'd say the first and second "black Pyretic Ritual" has a higher marginal value than the third Chrome Mox and 13th land, though. Especially with the possibility of threshold that makes it better than actual Pyretic Ritual.Quote:
Originally Posted by sawatarix
Looks like you've never got molested by Stifle, Daze, Wasteland, Spell Pierce or mulligans which are the reasons to run more initial mana sources rather than Cabal Rituals. The lategame power of CR is undeniable, but that was never the point; it was it's initial cost for early combo attempts off a single land or against the beforementioned cards and it's cmc for Ad Nauseam. I guess I found myself too often on the other side of the spectrum, with a CR in hand against softcounters, barely any IMS and without thres.hold
In the DnT match the Cabal Ritual was just fine for going off in one turn, I think the initial cost of Cabal Ritual is only an issue if Cabal Ritual is your only ritual effect. It goes without saying that Cabal Ritual isnt excelling at turn 1 combos, but the real impact of that is probably felt in the copy that is substituted for the 3rd Chrome Mox, as the ability to get 2 IMS on turn 1 is less available, not from Cabal Ritual being a poor ritual effect in the early game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I will agree, though, that I did get pretty favorable arrangements of opponents, storm and blue control is pretty popular, though burn and DnT also have above average representation and I could have just as easily ran into them. I can also see how a dearth of initial lands can be deadly, the only game I lost in that daily was, fundamentally, just about me keeping in a sloppy manner and not having enough initial mana to do things.
Overall, I feel like Cabal Ritual is good at all points in the game, its a Pyretic Ritual when you wanna go off early and belch out goblins, and it's a ton of mana for midgame once you fought through counters. Accommodating these Rituals takes space though, and while shaving off an IMS does lead to less stability, I get to wonder what else you'd cut out. You could shave discard or cantrips, the former having been done before, but then you swing the pendulum the other way and lose ground against slower control decks.
One daily is, as I stated, nothing close to an exhaustive look at the metagame, but it seems favorable today. If I run into the similarly popular DnT/tempo/Burn decks, I am admittedly worse off, but I think the ground I'm gaining on blue decks with those hard counters is worth more than the ground I lose by dropping a Chrome Mox. You'll notice I never sided out a Chrome Mox against Delver, though, its not as though I didnt realize that the Chrome Moxen were more valuable now that I only had the two, I just don't side them out much anymore. Next time, when I test with another Chain and Decay over Pyroblasts, my boarding for RUG will just be cutting a Ponder for a Tropical Island, for instance. I feel like the deck is just as strong overall, you just have to revalue Chrome Moxes and be a bit more sensitive to mana. I'll keep on testing, though, because more data will only make things clearer.
EDIT: I mentioned this on twitter a while back, but when Cabal Ritual was being tried out around 2 months ago, an option I was considering was boarding both of them and a Ponder out for 2 Pyroblast and Tropical Island, and then just playing a slower game against the tempo decks. So, you can side out Chrome Mox less, and you can also side Tropical Island in more against a deck like RUG, especially moving forward with no Pyroblasts.
The decklist on the opening post isn't tournament-legal just FYI
It's seventy-five cards (Unless my google doc is lying to me) and only four of each card. I think you miscounted.Quote:
Originally Posted by davelin
your OP only lists 2 Duress and counts up as 59 cards. I think the 3rd Duress just isnt listedQuote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Corrected. A private message would've sufficed gentlemen.
I played TES yesterday in a small 10 man tournament that my LGS held. I didn't do so well, losing to dredge twice, but beating DnT in three total rounds, so an overall 1-2 finish. I thought I'd write a report on the tournament cause there were some good plays (and some bad ones). I'm still pretty newbie at playing TES though.
For reference, I played Bryant's list from the OP. Also, I'm a little fuzzy on some of the details, as I didn't think to take notes.
Round 1: vs Dredge
Game 1: I haven't tested this matchup much, but I didn't think it could be much different than a matchup where whoever wins the die roll has a serious leg up (I knew what this guy was on before the match started). Well I won the die roll and open up a hand of 2x LED, 1x Dark Ritual, 1x Infernal Tutor, 2x Gitaxian Probe, 1x Rite of Flame. I keep because of the potential for a first turn Ad Nauseam if I hit any black producing source (I decide I like those chances). Well I miss off of both probes, pass, and he has the turn one off of breakthrough + lion's eye diamond. -.-
SB
Nothing
Game 2: I open a hand with the potential for 12-14 goblins on turn 2, and he's on a mull to 6. I duress him turn one and take his breakthrough, which was his only gas for the game. 12 goblin tokens gets there.
SB
+1 Thoughseize
-1 Duress
Game 3: This one was the most interesting game of the three. I open a hand with Gitaxian Probe, Ponder, Cabal Therapy, LED, Scalding Tarn, Gemstone Mine, Lotus Petal. I keep it, although I'm thinking this is a possible mulligan cause it might not be fast enough. I probe first turn and see 2x Careful Study, Cephalid Coliseum, along with three dredgers (none are Grave-Troll, which is important) and a putrid imp. I immediately Therapy the careful studies, which I think ends up being a bad play because his stinkweed imp can get him threshold at this point on his next turn for his Coliseum. He plays the imp and passes. My draw for the turn is a brainstorm, and I play it, without thinking about sequencing this correctly (ponder first would have been better I think, rookie mistake). I find burning wish and LED x2, and I put back the wish and an LED to protect from his therapies. Well, he pretty much goes crazy the next turn off of the coliseum, and puts me to one, meaning I can't crack my fetchland to get more mana. I don't think I played this one very well.
Loss 1-2
Round 2: vs DnT
Game 1: I know what I'm against before the game starts again. I win the die roll and open up a hand that makes 16 goblins turn one. I obviously go for it and he can't deal with it.
SB:
+2 Chain of Vapor
+2 Abrupt Decay
-1 Ponder
-3 Duress
Whoops, I forgot to bring in the tropical.
Game 2: I open a hand with double decay, LED, 2 fetches, and 2 petals. He plays plains, pass. I play a fetch and pass, then realize I forgot to bring in the tropical island to even pay for the decays anyways. He plays a thalia after playing a Karakas. I try to force through my petals to get the green mana needed, pass the turn back. He plays mangara and I scoop, with no way to go off next turn through the Thalia.
SB:
+1 Tropical Island
-1 Chrome Mox
Game 3: It was something like Infernal Tutor, Brainstorm, Petal, Gemstone Mine, Dark Ritual, Cabal Therapy, Probe. I keep it, play brainstorm on turn one to find 2x LED and a Cabal Ritual. I put back the cabal ritual and Cabal Therapy, and go for the first turn Ad Nauseam, getting there with a tendrils for about 26 life.
Win 2-1
Round 3: vs Dredge
Another Dredge matchup... I lose the die roll this time, and again I know what this guy is on before we start.
Game 1: I totally forget what I had this game, although I know it wasn't fast enough to beat his turn 2 win.
SB: Nothing
Game 2: I open up a hand that can ad nauseam on the first turn. Sounds like a plan to me, and I get there.
SB: Nothing
Game 3: I do quite well with my opener this game, as I have Empty the Warrens, Brainstorm, Duress, Chrome Mox, LED, Petal, Gemstone Mine (I think). I brainstorm into Burning Wish, Ponder, Dark Ritual, and I put back the Duress and the Ponder in that order (ponder on top) (I think, I don't exactly remember that well). I storm out from here and end with a board full of goblins, LED, and Gemstone mine with a ponder on top of my library. I pass, and he starts to go off. He develops a board of triple narcomoeba, along with three bridges in the graveyard. Then he has no dread return to win the game with so he passes back to me. I draw my ponder, swing in, putting him to some lower life total, and ponder looking for a Cabal Therapy to get rid of his bridges. I don't find it off the ponder, or it's shuffle+draw (instead I see duress, wish, tutor, which is important because if I had cracked the LED for black I would've won the game, finding CT with the tutor. Another rookie mistake). I pass back and he gets the Dread Return.
Loss 1-2
Overall, I had a lot of fun and the deck felt powerful even if it was being piloted by someone not so skilled with the deck. I think with some more practice and playtesting, I should do better.
Also, some of the scenarios might not be perfectly drawn up above, as I'm going directly from memory and didn't take notes. Sorry if that's the case, I swear these things actually happened...
2 short remarks before I'm off for the big Football match tonight:
1) in R1/G1 casting the Therapy was indeed the reason you lost. You got greedy seeing the two Careful Studies, but missed that he had a third discard outlet in his hand. If you had pondered into the BS, Wish and LED turn 1 you could have set up a turn 2 combo while all he did was dropping the Imp. You gave up a card (for Brainstorm to put back in exchange for the third LED 4 example) and a whole turn of actions without affecting either your or your opponents combo.
2) your D&T keeps and boarding for game 2 are bad. I preached it day in day out: don't board Decays against D&T because you'll never be able to cast them against Thalia, Wasteland and Port. Keeping a hand without any business but Decays is just bad and never works out like you might have noticed. The 2 viable strategies to beat D&T are either Racing their hatebears or Wishing for massacre T1/2 and slow-roll till you can wipe their board off a U.Sea and combo
Why were you on the play in game 3, when you won game 2? He's clearly not manaless so putting TES on the play seems really dumb.
@HammerAndSickled - I wasn't. He opened with City of Brass into Faithless Looting for setup, but I forgot to add that in my haste to finish the report this morning.
@Lemnear - Thank you for the insight. It didn't feel like I played the first matchup well at all, tbh.
Hello!
Today I played TES at locals. 4 rounds and so, I ended up wining with all games 2-0 except one.
I played the 2 cabal ritual, with infernal in side and topical in side and all 3 mox in main. Side was 3 Xantid 3 Decay no pyroblast. Expecting miracles and hight tide as mayor contenders.
R1 vs Ur burn
g1 I have no disruption but infernal and seven mana. I ponder he delvers I ponder and so. He bs in his unkeep and shows a fow with his delver, im 99% sure that he has no blue card un his 3/4 grip. Because he would obv have shown other card before. Of he can have like delver land land fow or so. He plays land goblin guide. So only fow + dever + blannks. I was gonna como out but draw a gitaxian and see price, fow , land. So I just nauseam him from 12-14 lives or so and win.
g2 I have a hand of double cabal and duress and some combo. I therapy cause i prefer this to get dazed, naming styfle cause I need to resolve my next turn an empty or a fetch (i dont remeber) And he has 2 surgicals. He plays a probe Sees another therapy and surgicals. Then he ha vendilion + fow. Play his 4th land and vendlions me having him a fow and a bolt.Draws 5th land and atacks me several times until im on 2. he took a bw with vendi. and one was on a mox in the field. At 2 lives I draw another burning and it resolves. While I have no land drop made and no other thing. He is at 14. I burning, It resolves, I count and grab tendrills. My hand is like 3 ROF, gemsone, cabal, tendrills, petal. I petal, then rof, he forces, I play gemstone and Rof, he surgicals. and get the 3rd from my hand. I have 2 red and a cabal with *****. I just cabal and tendrills for the win with a enought storm thanks to his surgical and fow.
Side nothing but if I would have played g3 I would have sided may be grapeshot for if he surgicals my burning but idk
R2 reanimator budget.
G1 I duress him turn 1 and see a hand of: 2 ub lands, ritual, reannimate, buried alive, thoughseize, entomb. So this hand is nuts and I have a hand that loses to seize cause I have ritual, another land and the nauseam. I think more and more what to discard and realize his both land enter tapped if he dosnt own a swamp or island. So I just take the ritual. And on my second turn I draw a rOf and just nauseam him to dead.
g2 He starts making entomb I think im dead cause my hand has no petal only like ponder brainstorm volcanic and red mana and a led + infernal or so. SO im sooo dead. But... he entombs the shit card It that betrays. Yeahhhh super bad opponent. No iona and no griselbrand. SO on my turn I just ponder and Have win on next turn. He renaimats going to 10 and On my turn I just tendrills him and ask why he didnt entombed griselbrand, says he thought its not good, and he sided it out. LOL
Obv a anihilating guy that makes nothing to the board the turn it comes into play its better.
Side:
-4 therapy
-1 empty
+1 seize
+3 xantid
+1 tropical
R3 Miracles (one of the 2 best miracles players in spain) Ballestin
I have good hand of 2 ponders, 1 duress, 1 therapy, gemstone, ritual, infernal. I draw a therapy and play ponder I SHUFFLE (no second land) and draw a led. Then next turn I draw a cabal, ponder again. and find no land and shuffle. Draw another ponder, I need to mana to go off with protected kill. ·3rd pondder gets pierces and gemstone explodes. I draw 3 turns no land He plays a jace. And im dead. I just keep playing to see cards of his deck.
g2 we play a few turns draw and go, I have land and gitaxian, I know he has a counterspell, draw a duress and duress him. Now I dont know 4 card of his hand. He counterspells that means he has nothing. I gitaxian and I one mana short of wining. Dosnt draw a +1 mana source and pass turn. He had explosives, jace and land. On his turn he plays his 6th land and jaces. I keep track of his card in hand and he has put 2 cards back of his 3 drawn with jace. He fetches and plays rip. So now he has like 2-3 cards in hand and no mana up. Im preaty sure one is explosives. So he need fow + blue card. I can not let him untap. And go for combo and win. He then shows me fow but no blue card. I already discarted a fow. and starts complaining how unlucky he was of no drawing a blue card. An I just tell him he was on draing the fow.
g3 He keeps a loose hand and I just nauseam into tendrills him t2 or so.
Side:
-1 mox
-2 cabal ritual
-1 empty
+3 decay
+1 tropical
R4 Miracles (against the other best miracles player in spain) jaime cano
g2I win the roll and keep a turn 1 hand but no gitaxain or discard I also have a ponder. So I value that him not playing pierce and playing reb makes my gues on just land ponder for disrpution pass better than going for it. I ponder find nothing shufle draw a mana source and pass. He makes arid and passes. I dont play a land. and dark ritual, And make special enphasy on if the ritual resolves. He knows I like to do ritual into discard cause we play toghether. He says it resolves and my six sense says he has no counter. So I just go for nauseam and win.
g2 He senseis. I gitaxian seeing fow, blue card, balance and rip. I ponder and have no discard, He drops balance. My hand is: infernal, rof, ritual, petal, led. land. BW. I play I play the burning, he reveals and its a explisves (my empty the warren plan just go to shit, but he forces. Now he has 2 lands and plays RIP. On my turn I draw a blank. I rof and he switches top. I respond with dark ritual and activates balance and on top is a land or so. So he counters my rof and then I just go petal, led infernal crack nauseam and win.
Side:
-1 mox
-2 cabal ritual
-1 empty
-1 ponder
+3 decay
+1 tropical
+1 grapeshot (he plays 3-4 meddling on side, but im not sure if taking the ponder is the best option)
So I just win the event and is weird cause I never won with goblins all time with natural tendrills or nauseam and I also just lost one game. Was lucky that my oppoenets didnt where ridding his usualy luck horses.
After the event I played 6 games agaianst a friend with burn and whle against ANT his eidolon deck is like 50% with TES is a blowout and he dosnt believed me so we bet a drink. I just keep in mind playing like agaianst takes (belcher mode on) and Won 5/6 games all with goblins and Like therapy his eidolon or any other card then make 8-12 goboins and therapy his hand. I just lost a game where We both mull to 5 and he had 2 guiden and I empty him and was just if he draws a 3 damage spell i loose if not he looses. He draws and I loose. But g1 was preatty good and I won out a drink of him latter at dinner Yuhu! TES is just too fast for non blue decks, thats GEIL!
1) R3 G1 The first Ponder should have looked out for a Land no matter how attractive the LED and Cabal Ritual were on top of your library. Expecting to turn the game in your favor with Ponder and a Gemstone with a single counter left at the end of your second turn was greedy
2) "Geil" is a word outside of Germany??
3) congratz :D
In the Netherlands, geil means horny.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
If we joke around with the German language, geil is an obvious choice. :tongue:
OT: Gambling on a Mine with a single counter may be a bit greedy, but the opponent doesn't play Wasteland, so it could work out. I'm not sold on either option... Chances of finding a land after a Ponder shuffle are pretty bad. Keeping two good cards is tempting.
I looked for a land with both ponders, shuffled both times but never saw a land. Obv I look for land. But I meant that if I found the land I could just have go off with a ton of protection but I needed a second source. Sorry it was not clear I shuffled u,uQuote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Geil is not a word outside of Germany. But I went to a German school until university more or less and I know you wuld be one of the 1st on Reading this and answering ;D
ausgetrickst ^^
In the german language it can either mean "Horny" or "awesome" :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
The Problem for me wouldn't be Wasteland but softcounter and Gemstone's fading counters while holding a hand of 2 disruption spells and 2 ponder plus combo parts. There is no chance he can fight through any protection with the Gemstone alone, so if you choose to keep that LED + CR on top with a DR + IT in hand, you have to be comfortable with going all-in turn 2 with DR -> CR -> LED -> IT -> AN in the face of FoW or Pierce. There is no middle ground; either you keep the Ponder and push turn 2 or you look for an U.Sea asap to Dismember your opponents defense and find more gas with the Ponder #2 and the drawstep(s).
In this case he casted Ponder #2 to see only 2 new cards (one was still left there after the first Ponder) giving his opponent another turn to draw into protection/CB.
Edit: got ninja'd. No blame here if you shuffled with Ponder #1. it was still reasonable to push T2
I had the mana, but going for it turn 2 with no mana up and no protection against an opponent who had mana and enought cards I dont know of them, think is crazy.
I think digging for lands was better than going off. If I would have draw a land I would have won. Even a petal was good enought. But this game I had no luck.
Hi,
(first of all, sorry about my english. I'm from Brasil=)
I don't post a lot, but i'm always following the forum... (I play with TES since it has ten rainbow lands and Tomb of Urami).Here is my list, and a little thought about why I believe this is the right approach for now:
3 infernal tutor
4 burning wish
4 bstorm
4 ponder
4 gitaxian probe
4 dark ritual
4 rite of flame
4 lotus petal
4 Lion's eye diamond
3 chrome mox
1 ad nauseam
1 empty the warrens
4 cabal therapy
2 duress
2 xantid swarm (I'll explain)
4 gemstone mine
2 city of brass
2 sea
1 volcanic
3 fetch U
SB: (16 I know)
1 infernal tutor
1 tendrils of agony
1 empty the warrens
1 thoughtseize
1 massacre
1 diminishing returns
1 I'll gotten gains
1 past in flames
1 xantid swarm
2 CoV
2 pyroblast
3 abrupt decay
Well, basically is the "old" rainbow land mana base to support the xantids main deck, and the SB. Xantids is there against taxing counters (counters in general) which is one of the points to include the cabal ritual. Besides that, if you are playing against a non blue deck, you can just flashback your therapies. Use the same strategy if your opponent have removall spell in his hand. They increases our reanimator/snt/tide/folks MUs chances. For G2 against blue decks with removal, you can chorões to board they out to let your opponent with dead cards in the deck.
The SB have 16 cards because the xantid make I'll Gotten Gains just better. Same with returns. We can cut one or another, or put the infernal back to main deck, since we will not have the cabal ritual's help to generate 9 manas. But if we bring the tutor back to the main deck, I would not know what to cut.
I like Iggy because it's fast, and can hit the table before a hatebear shows up (vs DnT), and before elves do something. I would cut the returns before Iggy, if the tutor remains in the SB. And with 2 xantids main deck, we can cut one xantid of the SB and put another CoV ( or the new bounce sorcery spell).
Even without the cabal ritual, I still like the tutor in the SB because you still can generate 9 manas, or do a wish for the tutor, a turn before the combo, as always.
With this list, the deck will keep it's velocity and explosiveness, and will keep the TES identity...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComboMan
While Xantid and Cabal Ritual are both valid options against taxing counters, the Insect has absolutely no synergy with Past in Flames, doesn't fuel the Wish -> Infernal -> Ad Nauseam path nor helps if your hand is under pressure of opposing discard. I feel that you not only weakend your manabase, but also limited the decks pliability to handle certain situations.
IGGY is pointless in todays heavy blue metagame and with DRS/RIP everywhere. Also 2 graveyard engines are a bit redundant
Hi all, I'd like to share this success with you.
I played TES at a Capital league 40-80 people tournament, this time few people came, and got top 8 and lost next in the 1st round, but yeah got it! finally top 8 with TES, (done also with DDFT and TNT) by here this tournament is the one that has most reputation, made 5-1 loosing only vs merfolks - winning 1st game but on 3rd he had a hand with 3 FoW and vial, didn't draw therapy, LoL!
Well
related to the match ups I won I want to focus on 3 mainly,
I didnt face any miracles and I really wanted..., snif...
- One was vs U/W blade, it was 2-0, both hands from my opponent contained FoW Pierce and counterspell and other flavours but its just discarding FoW or Fluster and just use your mind tricks to win via natural tendrils or whatever other thing, in here I have to say that C.Mox is not as bad as it may seems, as provided in the case of need more storm withouth requirements
- One was Shardless BUG, well in here keeping brainstorm as much as I could was key to avoid vendilion, I reached a scenario in which he supposed to have soft counter, me 2 threats, mana, spells and b.s. and he plays vendilion EoT, I just kept both threats on top, but he could have countered b.s. - he didnt, so whatever the 2 options he had chosen he wold have lost any way as he had no other hard counter and the threats were 1B.W., 1 I.T. all you need vs Vendilion is B.S., again nothing new. Togores paisano! you saw this second game and you say you had taken other direction, I would have done this as Lem says every day of the week! playing ponder having b.s. vs Shardless BUG on first turn is not the best thing you can do...
- One was vs my Storm neighbour Togores, Rebancha!!!, he won the first game with an incredibly luck 1st turn win playing plain and shitty ANT. who dares! again he was going to frustrate my plan to top8 - last time he did!
* second I start, lot of gobs won me the game
* well this 3rd game - and togores should agree was an absolute demonstation why TES and ANT are 2 Diff decks.
. He plays land Therapy and names logically LED
. I had a hand of: Gemstone, B.W., I.T, C.M, C.M., D.R. and Ad Nauseam of course. -> Top 8., I have to recognize in here that the result of having -1C.M+1C.R. is the same. anyway.
Related to the match ups I lost just was like shit happens
- a hand of 3 FoW, Vial, cursecatcher and next he drew Pierce and cursecatcher even and me not drawing Therapy..., any way I didnt have Xantid in my side, only 2 pyros and 1 extra discard effect, so I sided like -1EtW+1Discard and maybe I should have left EtW... for next time I'll leave EtW, just theye 're great and the unique thing is that you need more gobs. so the unique plan would be maybe -1Duress +1T.Seize, what would you have done?, anyway I always win Merfolk... again C.M. in here shines.
- The other BUG tempo player, the 1st game I won , was a great game, always with 1 land playing very nicely and measuring the cantrips, duress etc, perfectly. I would not have done this withouth C.M. I'm TFM.
the 2nd and 3rd match up were dictated by null rod, in both match ups he drew it! and he next cofessed he only plays 1 in side!!, the 3r was close as I decided to take out hymn and as I have enough things to make storm and kill not depending from artifact I prefer discarding hymn., in here maybe i chose bad, I still dont think so, but he also had FoW back up, and I had another discard, so the idea was to drew 1 more mana and win. this did not occur in the next 3 turns. he had no counter and null rod only affected my c.m.
I think I only sided -1Ponder+1tropical, prefer keeping 3 duress, he played also G.Charm, dont mind 2 only. I maybe would have prefer to add also other discard effect instead of C.M. dont know...
Some notes:
- I will stick on 3 C.M. 4 I.T.
- really didnt need Xantids, I just opted to put up the number of discard.
- didnt use Diminisihng, but this time there werent Jund
- didnt use bribery, hoever the day before I played vs a renimator and the 2 games I won was exactly because of bribery, so will keep it.
- the unique match up I think C.Ritual would have shined could be maybe Shardless BUG, but the fact that Deathrite was a first turn contender all the time, I dont think it would have been relevant.
- vs Tempo BUG really was bad luck but I feel that c.r. was also inneffective in here. I didnt have more than 1 land all the time.
- EtW is great.
the deck I played is:
will appear in TC Decks soon:
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
sideboard
1 T.Seize
1 IoK
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Tropical Island
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Bribery
1 Diminishing Returns
2 Pyroblast
1 PiF
Some notes about the deck:
- I sometimes just do -1EtW+1Discard, but I'm thinking in just put +1CoV, when the release of the Vapor Snage maybe the IoK will be that slot, but not sure, I'm not really finding any need of CoV at all lately, I have 3 different paths of victory, I won also to a boy playing a Post Deck borrowing a Titan, he had no Emrakul or likes!!!!
- before I played 2Duress 1T.Seize base, but sometimes is just not as good in the late game to use T.Seize, 13 to 11 lifes as example, maybe i put 1 back from side plus 2 pyro to handle m.m, again not to handle Vendilion. also vs Tempo strategies I just prefer duress ove t.seize also for the life lose...
- still with not less than 3 A.D vs miracles, didnt face any, but just was luck.
- EDIT: I will likely back to +1Duress OR +1T.Seize -1IoK, opinions?, what is better vs BUG Tempo? do you side in T.Seize?I prefer to not to have it as the chances of drawing it and start are less and anyway you still prefer to take out FoW than Delver.
Congrats on result!
We had to play and still topped. I know this time was yours. But next turnament I gonna be the winner again!
Am I wrong in thinking that the currently biggest difference between TES and ANT is that we run B.W., whereas they dont?