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Bob was rank in testing vs. CB, even if you just maxed out on discard to make the extra cards most relevant. The only times he is good is when they have a bad clock and you are throwing discard at each other, so basically the mirror and GBx. Problem is you can just overpower WGB Junk naturally and the mirror you often randomly just die on turn 2-3 before Bob matters. That basically leaves BUG for it to be reasonable.
One huge issue with Bob is that you are almost forced to have a second Tendrils since he goes really well with the mini tendrils them out plan.
Also, any time Bob is good, something else would've been faster, especially since he sucks to flip off of Ad Nauseam.
// Lands
2 [SOM] Island (1)
2 [SOM] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Underground Sea
2 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
2 [U] Volcanic Island
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [V09] Lotus Petal
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [DDE] Dark Ritual
4 [M11] Duress
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [M10] Ponder
4 [M11] Preordain
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [JU] Burning Wish
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [UL] Rebuild
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 4 [6E] Doomsday
SB: 1 [LRW] Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 [M10] Deathmark
Here is the storm list I plan on playing and was looking for some advice on it. . .any changes I could make etc. I was playing a list without burning wish, and white instead. . .and while I like orim's chant, I think Burning Wish with just black disruption is better overall. . .since playing 4 Infernals and that's it can be bad at times. . .I havent quite decided 100% but I'm going to play the wish version for now, as I own all the cards for it. . but all I'm missing for the white version is Chants
The SB is what I'm most worried about. . there's about 15 cards I want to fit in for Wish targets, but with the Doomsday plan against Countertop, Infernal Tendrils and IGG, I'm kind of hampered on space. The other cards I want to fit in are the obvious choices, Shattering Spree, ETW, etc. Maybe squeeze the 3rd Thoughtseize in the main and open up another slot in the board but I gotta play around with it.
Any advice would be great, as I'm a relatively new combo player. Thanks!
-1 volcanic into
+1 badlands ( sometimes you want it)
-1 tendrils of agony (really, you'll cast burning wish into tendrils every single time without a lot of effort)
+1 ad nauseam/thoughtseize (yes the second ad nauseam is actually quite good)
You could take the risk and remove the ill-gotten gains out of mainboard, this is optional.
Also 4 basics are not needed, you can easily go -1 swamp , + fetch
change the catacombs and into scalding tarns or more misty, minor details though.
Having played TES, having that Tendrils main can be extremely important, I would not chant that.Quote:
Originally Posted by practical joke
I would add a Badlands though. You probably won't be needing 2 Volcanics ever.
Also, you might want to look into playing Empty somewhere in the 75, that card is great.
I would make room for 1 Empty the Warrens in the board. Having access to the card will give you a lot of free wins. Also, replace the Rebuild with Shattering Spree (or Pulverize) so you can wish for artifact removal. Having a 1-of Rebuild with no way to find it (no Grim Tutors) doesn't seem that great.
Having played a lot of TES, the 4th Infernal Tutor was always better in the main deck for game 1. The situations where you would want to Burning Wish for Infernal to find an Ad Nauseam were pretty rare, and generally only happened vs. slow Landstill variants. However, your list plays 12 cantrips instead of the usual 8 to get Cabal Ritual thresholded, so I'm not sure if the same logic still applies. Something to think about it at least.
I think most of the TES players agreed that 4 Infernal Tutors is better than having one in the sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by x8eikdls
However, I think this deck plays differently. Because Neaud's proposed build runs more fetches, more cantrips, and Cabal Rituals (instead of Chrome Moxes and Rite of Flames), it's able to generate more mana (which isn't surprising--it's basically Ari Lax's ANT build except with Burning Wish instead of Grim Tutor). As such, it's often useful to be able to tutor chain, provided there's enough red.
Being able to go Burning Wish->Infernal Tutor->Infernal Tutor->Infernal Tutor/Burning Wish->Tendrils can probably win a lot of games without Ad Nauseam and without exposing yourself to gravehate with an IGG loop. This play isn't really possible in TES, which is why I'm not surprised that a 4th Infernal in the sideboard isn't great there.
By far the most common play you will make when you have an Infernal Tutor in your board, is going to be Wish for Infernal, Go. Winning the same turn requires 9 mana for the combo alone. You are generally trying to be playing around Daze or Duressing in the meantime.
However, in pretty much every scenario in the current format (where you're either being beaten down quickly, being comboed out or being tempoed out), Wish->Infernal, go is worse than Wish->EtW or Wish->Returns. This deck can't behave like Doomsday combo because the Infernal Tutor engine depends on either high life totals or the absence of counters/other harmful spells in the opponent's graveyard. Wish->Infernal Tutor isn't a winning play often enough to warrant cutting your most powerful engine down by one in the mainboard, even in this list that can generally make slightly more mana than TES does.
Depending on your meta, I'd cut the mainboard IGG and ToA. I hate having dead cards in my mainboard. However, it's possible you'll be forced to run them. If your meta is aggro-heavy, you want them in your 75. If you insist on running Doomsday in the board, you won't have the room to support 2 ToA and 1/2 IGG side (depending on wether you value IGG high enough as a Wish target).
You need an EtW sideboard. It's actually your most used target for Wish.
You shouldn't be running 2 Swamps. Think about what that second basic does for you. The only time it's relevant is when you're casting 2 Duresses the turn before you win. In your combo turn, you generally need one black. The exception is the scenario where you want to cast your Duress/TS before you cast a ritual. In this case, you might just as well fetch a Sea in the combo turn.
The rebuild sideboard seems off. You can't even Wish for that card. It's better as either some kind of Wishable artifact solution like Shattering Spree or Pulverize, or as another Chain of Vapor.
I wouldn't run the second AdN. Most of my team disagrees here (including Practical Joke). I am, however, clearly much better at this game than them, so you should listen to me.
how nice, I wouldn't say better, but definately more experienced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
so yes, it's worth listening to Bahamuth.
+1 I hate the second Ad Nauseam.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
Ari plays at my local store, and I talked to him about this deck as I tossed around ideas. . .that's why it's really similiar =p
I love it, since ad nauseam is awesome and even better in the red splash.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
Never liked the 2nd Ad Naus due to flipping it off itself really blew. Taking into account the advice I'm gonna play around with
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
1 [SOM] Island (1)
2 [SOM] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Underground Sea
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [U] Volcanic Island
2 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [B] Badlands
// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [V09] Lotus Petal
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [DDE] Dark Ritual
4 [M11] Duress
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [M10] Ponder
3 [M11] Preordain
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [JU] Burning Wish
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [6E] Doomsday
SB: 1 [LRW] Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 [M10] Deathmark
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [CHK] Eye of Nowhere
I agree about the basics thing, but if I'm going to cut one it's gonna be an island. If that doesnt work I'll cut a swamp instead but I'll play around with both. Thanks again for all the advice.
This is just theorycrafting, but I think unlike TES, you might benefit from having the 4th Infernal Tutor in the sideboard for the following reasons:
1) Your Ad Nauseams are much weaker than TES because they have 4 Chrome Moxes which you don't. As a result, you have to go off with mana floating, probably later in the game at a lower life total. The main reason to have the 4th IT main is to get better access to Ad Nauseam.
2) Your Empty the Warrens are also weaker than TES. Again, you tend to go off later, you have lands instead of Moxes which would help building early storm, and you don't have Orim's Chant to help race. I agree with not including a maindeck EtW but do agree with the sideboard copy; however, since you lack a maindeck EtW, that's even less reason for the 4th IT maindeck.
3) Like Ari's build, you will often kill with IGG loops or Tutor chains, and you can build much more mana than TES can to allow for this. Having a Burning Wish for IGG but no other tutor effect to continue the loop is awkward. Being able to build a huge tutor chain with plenty of mana, but only having a single copy Burning Wish in hand is also awkward. From reading the tournament reports, it seems Ari often goes IGG loop with Grim Tutor when he has no access to Infernal Tutor (or not enough mana to tutor chain). You end up paying 6 mana (and 6 life) for Grim Tutor in that case. Conveniently enough, Wish->IT>IGG->IT also costs 6 mana for the tutors (with an extra mana required before IGG, but builds one extra storm).
I totally agree with 4 Infernal Tutors maindecked in TES. I just think this build differs enough where I'd strongly consider the 4th one in the sideboard unless there's compelling evidence from testing that you'd prefer it main. Seven tutor effects and one Ad Nauseam should be enough business with 11-12 cantrips and lots of shuffling effects.
Since you're so far along toward TES already, have you considered running Rite of Flame instead of Cabal Ritual? Also, you should make room for an Emrakul in the board if you're going to run Shelldock Isle :P.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuad
A while back, I top8'ed with a hybrid between ANT and emidln's TES. There were things I hated about both TES and ANT, and so I wanted to merge the lists slightly to try and fix the problems that I saw. Infernal in the SB simply because there were too many times during testing where I wanted to Wish for it. The only time where Wish->IT is bad is when you're on the draw against fast aggro and you don't have C.Mox to turn 1 it. When you're on the play, it sets up a turn 3 win where you have ~14 life to fool around with.
Instants [12]
2 Ad Nauseam
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
Sorceries [23]
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Infernal Tutor
3 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Wish
4 Duress
4 Ponder
4 Rite of Flame
Artifacts [11]
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
Lands [14]
1 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
Sideboard:
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Dark Confidant
1 Deathmark
1 Diminishing Returns
2 Echoing Truth
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Pulverize
1 Rebuild
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Thoughtseize
At that time, I didn't think I needed Pyroblasts because I beleved the best way to beat CB was to slam turn 1 Confidant+Duress or just EtW for 10. In retrospect, I should probably have played some blasts, though.
One of the bounce spells is supposed to be Emrakul, my mistake =pQuote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
And no I dont really want to run Rites and Chromes. . .I like Cabal Rit a lot, it makes me a tad bit slower to hit threshold but overall I feel it performs slower, and TES is too open to wasteland for me. . maybe not a 3 color version but the 4 color is.
Besides adding Emrakul for Shelldock, I'd cut the Eye of Nowhere. The only time you would wish for it over Deathmark or Shattering Spree, is vs. an Iona on black (Reanimator is barely played), and Enchantress with Solitary Confinement out. Both of those decks make up such a small percentage of the metagame that I don't think it's worth including.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuad
@Neuad
I really like the ant/tes mix list that you are trying. The one card I don't understand and maybe it is cuz you just didn't switch the fetches from ant is misty rainforests should most definitely be scalding tarns. Tarns fetch all you duals and get island if you want basics. also if you aren't playing rite of flame pulverize might be better than shattering spree.
Honestly the duals are just kinda what was there when I made the deck, starting with Ari's list. I own Flooded's, Misty's, and Polluted's. . .so I'll have to play around with my fetches until I can buy some Tarns. I'm going to play around with Shattering Spree and Pulverize. . I like the looks of Pulverize better due to mana cost, cant be counterbalanced or stopped by a Chalice@1 short of having RR open to do it with, which you have a point would be harder to attain early game trying to go off through a turn1 Chalice.Quote:
Originally Posted by e_hawk77
The reason I like this list is because without Grim Tutors, UB Tendrils (LaxStorm) isn't good enough. only 4 tutor's really can make a hand of Cantrip Cantrip land land rit duress LED into borderline risky because you dont know where those Tutor's are. . .with 4 Wishes and 3-4 Infernals, you have a much greater chance of drawing into them and keeping a hand like I listed.
Dont be me wrong, I liked UBW for Chant, but chant isnt worth only 4 Tutor's. It makes iggy loops a lot more fun though!
And 4 color's is just asking to lose to wasteland, which makes me SadPanda :(
Final list I will be toying around with. . .thanks for all the help.
// Lands
1 [SOM] Island (1)
2 [SOM] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [R] Underground Sea
3 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
1 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [B] Badlands
2 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [V09] Lotus Petal
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [DDE] Dark Ritual
4 [M11] Duress
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [M10] Ponder
3 [M11] Preordain
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [JU] Burning Wish
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [6E] Doomsday
SB: 1 [LRW] Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 [M10] Deathmark
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn