Great post, wcm8. I think a lot of the groundwork that you mention still holds very true these days. I swear by the 4 Sea, 2 Bayou, 1 Trop manabase whenever Hymn is in the deck.
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Great post, wcm8. I think a lot of the groundwork that you mention still holds very true these days. I swear by the 4 Sea, 2 Bayou, 1 Trop manabase whenever Hymn is in the deck.
Just for clarification: I think it really depends where you are coming from. The lists that were posted lately (mine included) do not try to cut Hymn to Tourach from Team America. They aren’t even based on the established TA lists. They are an attempt to cut red from the 4c Friedman list to get a more stable mana base. The decks are just completely different (besides the colors).Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
I certainly didn’t want to suggest to butcher the mana base of regular TA :wink:
But thanks for your post. I think it really is important to know why mana bases and other elements of a deck are constructed the way they are before one should change stuff.
Yeah that was the idea of my TNN list. Something I wonder tho is if not having bolt or goyf in those lists loses too much closing speed against decks like ANT or Turbo Depths or Lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Baum
Maybe, but the suggestion of Winter Orb seems a good one. That and soft countermagic should make your slower clock more acceptable. Also, I find stifle to be fantastic against storm, and condone any tempo list use it that doesn't use double black heavily.
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I managed to get a bit more testing in. Here's where I'm at with the deck (the main is VERY straight-foward and geared towards just being all-around good):
20 lands (4 sea, 2 bayou, 1 trop, 4 waste, 9 fetch)
4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf
1 Tombstalker
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Fatal Push
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Bstorm
My sideboard has changed around a tad:
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Invasive Surgery
1 Flusterstorm
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Darkblast
1 Winter Orb
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Flex slots, currently: 1 Surgical Extraction, 1 Grafdigger's Cage
Alternative options: Jace, the Mind Sculptor; Garruk Relentless; Diabolic Edict; Golgari Charm; Toxic Deluge; Dread of Night; Sylvan Library; Maelstrom Pulse; Life from the Loam; a second Winter Orb, Engineered Explosives; Pernicious Deed; etc.
I want a decent number of cards to help beat Miracles, and creatures that double up as disruption do a fantastic job. Leovold and Clique are also good against a bunch of other type of decks including combo. Leovold in particular is really powerful against any deck that relies heavily on cantrips. I don't really think he's necessary for the main deck however, and would prefer to only bring him in when I know he's going to have a high impact.
Today I''ll have an FNM Legacy.
i'll play this list, and tomorrow i'll write a report.
MAIN:
19 lands (4 sea, 2 bayou, 1 trop, 4 waste, 8 fetch)
4 Delver
4 DRS
4 Goyf
1 Tombstalker
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Liliana of the Veil
SIDE:
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dread of Night
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
2 Pithing Needle
I am aware that it would not be appropriate to play with 19 lands but I will try anyway.
19 Lands is doable, it's just that there's a slightly higher likelihood of you being mana-screwed, whereas being mana-flooded isn't necessarily an auto-loss. Depends on how lucky you get.
Especially if you're doing the 4/3 split towards Decay instead of Push, (and running Liliana) I'd want that extra land to ensure a better chance of hitting the drop on time.
Just wondering how you have found not having liliana in the main deck? I'm just starting out in BUG and haven't seen this cut before so I'm just curious how its been.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
So far, so good. Liliana is great, and I'm still running her in the SB. A lot of the time though, she ends up killing only one creature or gets countered.
Also, I'm still playing around with various minor tweaks, e.g. Leovold in the main, Diabolic Edict in the SB, etc. I haven't landed on anything definite yet, however I am POSITIVE that running 4 Fatal Push in the main has been correct, at least until there's a major change in the metagame. So many decks are handled easily thanks to having it, e.g. Elves, DnT, Infect, Merfolk, Goblins, etc.
Hey everyone,
Thinking of running BUG Delver at an upcoming event this weekend. I expect the meta will be heavy on D&T: is it crazy to try and run BUG over a 4c list with Bolts? I don't think so, because while not having Bolts and Grudges will suck, I think I can compensate with some extra Dread of Nights in the board. I've been wanting to try a 4 True-name Delver list, so here's what I was thinking:
Here's the list:
Creatures(16)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tombstalker
Spells(25)
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Hymn to Tourach
Lands(19)
8 Fetch
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
3 Dread of Night
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
2 Thoughtseize
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Unearth (recurring TNN against decks that are weak to it seems good)
1 Chill
1 Vendilion Clique
I think 0 liliana in a list with 4 Hymn is incorrect. Also, that much BB in a list with 4 TNN, the 4th USea is probably necessary. I also think 16 creatures is a bit much, but that may just be an opinion that others don't share.
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I there . Major legacy tournament in portugal. Meta will be full of br reanimator ( 7/ 50 ) and 4 collorgoofstuff (6/50 ) .
Heres my deck list for the tournament :
4 Deathrite shaman
4 Delver of secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster
1 True Name
1 Leovold
4 brainstorm
4 daze
4 force
3 decay
3 fatal push
4 ponder
3 thourach
2 seizes
4 u.sea
2 bayou
1 tropical
4 wasteland
4 polluted
4 verdant
2 strix
2 surgical
2 spell pierce
1 jace
1 golgari charm
1 needle
1 grafdigger
1 fatal push
1 sylban library
1 dread of night
1 vendilion
1 Loam
Thanks for the response!Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
The list is basically a conversion of the 4c Friedman lists to a straight BUG list. So in that regard, I don't think 16 creatures is too much although I could definitely see the 2nd Stalker getting the boot.
For me having 4 TNN and Lili is too many 3-drops. I didn't include Leovold for the same reason. Overall I'm just having trouble fitting everything in: what would you cut for those, other than the 2nd stalker?
I could see going back to a more traditional list with Lili, but for now I'm pretty set on trying out the 4 TNN build, as I think TNN is one of our best ways to beat D&T, Lands, and Eldrazi while also being a very solid threat against Miracles.
Also are you suggesting going up to 20 lands for the 4th Sea, or cutting a Trop/Bayou? It's quite possible that the Tombstalkers should just be Gurmag Anglers too.
I had good results with a list that cut all 4 Delvers in favor of 2 TNN and 2 Leovold. Delver is a sacred cow for a lot of people, but he's probably at his least impressive in the BUG tempo shell compared to versions that run Red.
I've found that without Lightning Bolt, most games are going to be going to the mid-game anyways, where I would much prefer either of these guys to Delver (Leovold especially as his disruption ability is amazing at keeping an opponent from recovering from topdeck mode). I still wanted to keep the Blue count at 20 for Force of Will, and I wanted the replacement cards to be creatures to keep the threat density up. A big reason for this was because I found I was siding Leovold in against basically *every* matchup, meaning he belongs in the main rather than the SB. But rather than go full-on midrange, I still wanted the power and versatility granted by running the mixture of full playsets of Tarmogoyf, Force, Daze, Hymn and Ponder.
I suppose Vendilion Clique is an alternative for the TNN slot(s), but the shroud effect was pretty useful in a variety of matchups. In online testing matches and real-life games, I haven't had much trouble actually casting either of the 3-drop creatures in a decent timeframe, and I've not really missed Delver aside from against fast combo -- but DRS and Tarmogoyf are still adequate clocks.
Do you mind sharing a deck list? Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
Sure, it's very straight-forward:
20 lands (9 fetch, 4 sea, 2 bayou, 1 trop, 4 waste)
4 DRS
4 Goyf
2 Leovold
2 TNN
1 Tombstalker
1 Vendilion Clique (taking the slot of the 4th Ponder)
3 ADecay
4 FPush
4 Hymn
3 Ponder
4 Bstorm
4 FoW
4 Daze
SB:
2 Jace, TMS
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Golgari Charm
2 Invasive Surgery
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 PNeedle
1 Null Rod
Other SB cards that I think are good: Vendilion Clique, Flusterstorm, Counterspell/Negate, Duress/Thoughtseize, Maelstrom Pulse, Garruk Relentless, extra graveyard hate (BR Reanimator is a real deck), Marsh Casualties, Toxic Deluge, Notion Thief (for BUG mirrors and whatnot), Sylvan Library, Engineered Explosives, Painful Truths (maybe...but I'm not a big fan of this when the deck is able to just play Jace TMS), Cursed Scroll (seriously, try it -- amazing against grindy creature matchups!!), the 4th Abrupt Decay.
So far I really haven't felt like I was losing too much by dropping Delvers from the list (and in fact, think the 3 drops are much better replacements for this archetype), but I'm a believer in the other elements that make this deck better than alternative BUG strategies that focus on a higher curve and play less efficient disruption. Resolving Hymn is brutal, and Leovold helps make it super tough for an opponent to win a topdeck war after the initial volley of spells. Tarmogoyf is still great at providing a wall and closing out games quickly.
*****
update edit: minor change made to the main 60 -- I cut the 4th Ponder for a Vendilion Clique. This maintains the Blue count, slightly increases the threat density, and Clique is extremely versatile (and pretty crazy if you also have Leovold on board -- her ability becomes basically straight up discard). What I've found is that by dropping Delver, there's less incentive to play so many Instants/Sorceries, though there's still a respectable number to keep Goyf happy. Cantrips are certainly amazing, but sometimes too much of a good thing is bad if you just end up filtering into more filter, and against certain control decks you really want to consistently have a threat to win the game of attrition. If you go back a year or two, you'll see that Goddik had the same idea with his successful lists and was only playing 3 Ponders.
While the threat mix listed above is how I currently prefer it, you could probably justify some minor adjustments depending on the expected metagame, e.g. cutting a Goyf for a 2nd Tombstalker or 3rd TNN, or playing more Cliques than TNNs, etc... But I would not cut Leovold, and it's perhaps arguable that a 3rd copy deserves a slot despite his Legendary status. I also would suggest maintaining the Blue count at a minimum of 20.
The sideboard also had a few minor changes: a 2nd Jace, 2 Deluge instead of narrower removal, and a Sylvan Library. This sideboard is fairly versatile and enables the deck to convert itself into a midrange BUG goodstuff list against the various grindy matchups. With tight play, a good knowledge of the format's various tricks and interactions, a little luck, and sometimes just drawing the right silver bullet at the right time, this deck is very capable of beating basically just about every Legacy archetype I can think of.
Hey all, not a regular in this thread, but thought I'd check in and share some experiences I had playing BUG of late... Recently, preparing for Brisbane GP side events, I started brewing around some of the ideas various lists that the boys from The Salt Mine were talking about, and/or writing about on MTG Goldfish.
What I came up with was the following:
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
1x Counterspell
4x Daze
3x Fatal Push
4x Force of Will
1x Spell Pierce
1x Spell Snare
4x Stifle
4x Ponder
2x Bayou
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Polluted Delta
2x Tropical Island
3x Underground Sea
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
1x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Snapcaster Mage
2x True-Name Nemesis
SIDEBOARD:
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Baleful Strix
1x Dismember
1x Dread of Night
1x Engineered Plague
2x Flusterstorm
2x Golgari Charm
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
As you might be able to tell from the card selection, I'm aiming to be lower, almost like a RUG delver with stronger answers to the boardstate than bolt, trading off 'reach' for said answers. It also attempts to rely on the yard less than other BUG Delver lists (that play Goyf/Angler/Stalker) as there is a lot of D&T in my local meta, which seem to LOVE playing a handfull of RIP in the board considering out faithful dredge and reanimator players locally.
I had a reasonably good run with this list in the first side event, losing only my final round to a bigger BUG list that drew 'the hand' and emptied my own hand and put me away with Lili. I had a bad run in another side event going only 2-2 overall, losing to BR reanimator in three, with him only just getting there in the third by top-decking enough re-animate effects to get through my counters, though I had some fantastic matches against infect that really got the cogs in the head turning. Jitte main was the bomb in that match, as were stifle and push.
The only change I made by the end of the weekend was to take out one Snapcaster for another TNN. The more I had Snappy in my hand on T3, the less I wanted him then (possibly because there was no Bolt). He's not really a 2, or even a 3 drop when you're running Decay and hoping to flash it back, so much as a 4 drop in this list. As such replacing it with a 3 ended up feeling like I had a smoother curve. Not sure if that's true or not yet, but I'm loving the list as it suits my play style more than any other Delver list, currently.
It's funny how I just tried to tell someone on another thread that BUG Delver plays 2 Bayous because of the BB spells and not because of Decay and now you showcase a list thats very hungry for UU and does not play any BB spells, but you still have 2 Bayous. :P
Bayou is terrible not only with all those cc1 cantrips, Stifle and Delver, but especially with Daze, Counterspell, Snapcaster Mage and TNN. What do you need the 2 Bayous for? Unlike the Hymn-Delver.dec as I like to call it you'd rather have Tropical+USea than USea+Bayou on turn 2. The version with Hymn (and Lili) needs to play the Bayous to reliably have access to BB for their spells, but you really want those two blue mana. So I suggest to cut at least 1 Bayou.
Have you tried out Leovold?
If youre aiming for a more canadian-ish kind of style, why no Nimble Mongoose? Also: Playing too few (cc1) counterspells if you wanna be the Dark Thresh.
Missing Null Rod/Needle in the board.
Valid point - I had thought about it previously but this is where I ended up. I was running one Island in the list for a while during brewing (intended for the wasteland mirror) running 4x Misty and 4x Delta. In my experience, I was more boned not being able to cast DRS t1 (gotta ramp to that T2 TNN) than by having a bayou in my opener. But you're right, it could be replaced by a Sea - I just don't own the fourth. With this being the case, would you run 2x Bayou, or the Island, or a third Trop (which I do own)? The more I ponder it, the more I think Trop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicklas
In terms of me saying that I was aiming for RUG, I meant in terms of mana denial (stifle) and having creatures that couldn't be targeted (TNN). I also said lower in the post that I wanted to not relay on the yard as much as RUG because of the heavy D&T in the area. Goyf and Goose blow in my meta, having played RUG from time to time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicklas
Both certainly can be good, and served me well in other Delver lists. You're not wrong, that they'd be good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicklas
I doesn't speak about Island but only about Tropical Island.Quote:
Originally Posted by 10k
You can do 3x Tropical + 3x Underground Sea and all your land would cast Deathrite Shaman.
About Pithing Needle, I'm totally agree. But Null Rod + Jitte in the sideboard may make it a little bit inconsistent.Quote:
Originally Posted by 10k