In the list i posted right above im also testing an U. Sea for an EE splash in case i need to fetch to hit 3cc, suggestions on which land i should take out?
Printable View
In the list i posted right above im also testing an U. Sea for an EE splash in case i need to fetch to hit 3cc, suggestions on which land i should take out?
I do play EE@1 turn against both, goblins and merrows. And I NEVER take spell snare out as it is the "best" answer to Silvergil Adept which is really one of the merrows I hate playing against. You canīt afford to waste a removal on him but neither can you take 2-3 dmg per turn :&
Hi everybody, I'm a long time reader but just registered today as I need some feedback on a Landstill build that I want to play at a side event at the german nationals this weekend. I especially need some advise on the sideboard.
// Lands (24)
3 Plains
3 Island
1 Academy Ruins
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Flooded Strand
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
// Spells (37)
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Decree of Justice
3 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Humility
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Counterspell
3 Standstill
3 Cunning Wish
1 Nevinyrral's Disk
1 Crucible of Worlds
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Return to Dust
SB: 1 Pulse of the Fields
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Runed Halo
SB: 2 Ajani Goldmane
SB: 2 Wrath of God
SB: 3 Path to Exile
Some basic explanations:
61 cards... I'm aware of this flaw. However, I'm not sure what to cut. The most likely candidate is disk. In a few games disk was the mvp but more often it was just too slow and almost a dead card. On the other hand I'm confused as most of you guys are running a 1of disk and seem to be content. How are your experiences with disk and in which matchups do you use it most?
2x Enlightened tutor MD...The thing that I dig most about Landstill is its flexibility and ability to beat such a huge variety of decks, i.e. it's good for an unknown meta. While I like e.tutor and the toolbox it offers, I dislike to play cunning wish into e.tutor into something gamebreaking as it is really slow. With e.tutors in the main I can more often play the gamebreaking stuff as soon as possible. Cunning wish just costs me one more turn.
The rest is pretty standard I think.
I'm still very unsure about the sideboard. The wish toolbox (Extirpate, pulse, R2D, P2E) is nothing special. Due to the 2 e.tutors main I like to fill the remaining spots with as much enchantments or artifacts as possible. However, I don't know if a singleton crypt is worth it. I'm unsure about Runed Halo as well. I'm planning to use it as a medicore combo hate, which can be usefull in some other matchups as well (ichorid, tempothresh, etc).
As all kinds of sligh and zoo are quite popular in germany right now, I really want to have an almost 100% matchup against these decks. That's the reason for the 2 Ajanis in the sideboard. But maybe that's overkill? Sadly I couldn't test that matchup. Anybody got some experience with Ajani alongside pulse vs aggro?
So any thoughts about this built and its sideboard?
@katakis
I would cut the 2 MD Etutor for 2 wraths out of the board.
Move 1 Etutor to the board as a wish target and cut a humility for the 4th Bstorm to make it a turn 4 wrath/humility/elspeth as consistent as possible.
Cut the crucible to the board.
60 card MD.
15 card SB.
I would say cut the halo's but I've never tested them.
I would cut both for 1 Negate and 1 FoF if you have 3 wishes FoF should deff. be in your SB in case you have 2 in hand.
Thoughts?
I played runned halo for a long time and somtimes it can be good. The problem with it is that the disruption is at the end of the combo. Also Halo can't stop cards like empty the warens.
I think most people have been playing negate as their anti-combo card.
From experience, combo isn't too good a matchup. I would say its 55/45 at best. Standstill is not too good if you let them build up a hand of hate. Unlike Countertop, we cannot lock them out and it depends on the number of counter we draw. If you have Negates + Mages in the SB, it's definitely a winnable matchup 60-65/40-35 in our favor. The main problem landstill has against combo is a lack of a good clock. Thresh without CB can still take combo by putting their life on a clock with Goyfs.
Depending on the combo builds. Duress builds are not that strong against us. Chant builds are VERY strong against us. I've tested against 6-8 chants ANT/NLS and it was nightmarish. You have to counter chant or lose. Countertop can afford not playing spells and countering but we can't. So Chant baits FOW/Counterspell. That's why I went with 3 Counterspell, 2-3 Spell Snare instead of 4 Snares simply because of the combo matchup. You can rely on Vindicate/Waste to buy some time but your clock is too slow. The favorability depends really if they're packing more than 4 Chants and how well you draw against them.
You obviously haven't read the thread because if you had you'd understand why your list doesn't and won't work on a consistent basis. theres a number of changes you'd need to make. all of which you'll understand when you actually read the thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by katakis
So my advice is Read the Thread.
Time for lists! I'm considering taking either landstill (for the second time ever) or RGB goblins to a tourney in 2 weeks, and to be honest I want to get some more 'real' playtime with landstill so I'm leaning towards that.
Here's what I'm gonna bring:
24 land
6x fetch
4x tundra
1x sea
1x scrubland
2x island
2x plains
1x swamp
3x wasteland
3x mishra's factory
1x ruins
37 other things:
2x FoF
3x Brainstorm
1x Jace
3x Standstil
4x Plow
3x Vindicate
2x Engineered Explosives
3x WoG
1x Disk
3x Counterspell
3x Spell Snare
4x FoW
2x Elspeth
2x Decree of Justice
1x Eternal Dragon
For a total of 61
Side (still moving stuff around, always changing)
2x Ajani
3x Meddling Mage
3x Preacher
2x Relic
3x Engineered Plague
2x Negate
Or something like that. We've got loads of combo in NL, but this tourney will be in Belgium so I'm confident with packing just 2 negates, the preachers have proven themselves in MWS testing to be at least playable but I've never used them in any competitive environment, though they seem pretty techy and cool.
I don't like taking the wish approach, neither do I like the filtering approach from SDT. I agree with Geoff on this deck's redundancy being enough to get there by just drawing shitloads of cards, with the added benefit of being able to run the swiss army knife vindicate and not having to invest mana into wishing/topping but just into answering.
Moss could I see you most current list?
I know you've always liked top are you running a 3/3/3 of bstorm/top/standstill?
Or 4/2/3?
What is you usual meta look like?
@katakis: Mossivo is just fully right on his advice: Read the Thread first.
but well that answer would be a bit too easy...go for this config on the SB (I'm German too and maybe we will even face each other in Aschaffenburg as I plan to play @ Nats SE too):
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 Extirpate
SB: 1 Return to Dust
SB: 1 Pulse of the Fields
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Runed Halo not sure about this but I run 2 Negate in that slot
SB: 2 Ajani Goldmane -1 + 1 EPlague -1 +1 Relic/Tormod's
SB: 2 Wrath of God -2 +1 E Tutor/Crucible +1 Wing Shards
SB: 3 Path to Exile
for the MD I think:
-2 Etutor +1 SDT as wish / etutor are the same timeframe( casted EOT and resolution @ following turn or the turn after that (disc) and SDT is just so good in CQ that you likely don't have a need for tutors.
Cut the 2nd 1 for either BS #4 or just to get a 60 cards deck ^
-2 Fact -> 2 WOG :eek:
also if you think wishes are that clunky then go for vindicate.
but well as mossivo said: It's all written in this Thread, just dig it up as what I wrote is only reflecting like 5 % of the recent discussion on this deck
MfG vom Bodensee,
ThaSmok3r
p.s.: If this looks like acting as a $%&§%$& or (/§/$/)("/ any kind, it isn't meant to be, you have to be prepared well to post in this thread, as there are a lot of very good players in here (I don't count myself towards those).
As for the lists, personally I'm leaning to the Ultimate Walker approach lately. And I've tested everything, black splash, green splash, red splash, with or without Wish,Vindicate, Disk, Top, The Abyss etc. The list I've settled on as of late:
// Lands
4 [R] Tundra
3 [4E] Mishra's Factory
2 [ALA] Island (1)
2 [RAV] Plains (4)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
1 [R] Plateau
3 [U] Volcanic Island
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [OD] Standstill
3 [TE] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
2 [R] Wrath of God
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
2 [M10] Jace Beleren
4 [FNM] Fire/Ice
Pros:
* Better early game against merfolk, as I'm playing against it nearly every tournament.
* Planeswalkers power. Seriously, these guys and girls are endless sources of card advantage for investment of one card and 3-4 mana. Something, that gives us inevitabilty, much like survival or loam engine.
* A whopping 23 Blue cards count - very good for your FoWs
Cons:
* Due to the lack of vindicate or wish is somewhat weaker to CounterTop - but that is non-existent in my meta.
* No Decree. Our late game bombs are PW ultimates.
Exactly Tinefol. That's a solid Ultimate/Landstill list. I was writing to Enigma in the Ultimate Walker post that his most recent list is basically Landstill without Brainstorm and Ancestral Vision over Standstill. (Go compare his recent list. It's an entire replicate of UWb Wishstill without Brainstorm and replacing Standstill with Visions).
To be perfectly honest, Ultimate Walker will eventually become a deck with 4 Brainstorm, 3 Standstill. Vision is just horrible in a general meta of countertop/standstill. If you suspended Visions, in a developed meta, who's to stop the opponent from dropping/resolving Standstill/Counterbalance? By then you have no control of Visions and you end up cracking a Standstill or flipping it to CB. Not to mention that Visions is a bad topdeck. It's an amazing turn 1-3 but your opponent will have 3-4 turns to prepare against it. I'd rather have Fact to draw/dig more than Visions in the mid-late game.
So in the end, PW Landstill might be an subarchetype of landstill. What governs Ultimate Walker now is that they don't run Standstill but for us playing Landstill, we know that resolving Standstill isn't as hard as it seems. You can even resolve Standstill in face of a Bob, since you have factories. I've done this multiple times and in the end I raced Bob in both life totals and card advantage. Landstill is much more skill intensive than Ultimate walker because Standstill is a more skill intensive spell. Its rewards for the better player: Ancestral Recall at your pleasure.
I do like the Walker Landstill hybrid, but I ultimately think that it plays more like Landstill than any legacy deck. You have it right there that the bombs are Planeswalker ultimate. One weakness of Walkers is that it's heavily reliant on 4cc bombs, and in an unfavorable board position, the walkers become terrible cards.
And seriously, even in Ultimate Walker, I think that Standstill > Visions since Walkers have so much synergy with Standstill. Best of luck with the list. I like the build so far and I'm a fan of Fire//Ice. you can consider Helix as suggested by Klaus, which drops the blue count to 19. Doable and perhaps better against Zoo and Painter. Fire//Ice is king against Gobs/Bobs so it's your take on the meta. I guess Fire//Ice warrants more than Helix since it has a little synergy with Vengeant.
@Ectoplasm: I love your list mainly because it looks just like mine. Well done, sir.
My list from ectoplasm:
-1 Wrath
-1 land
-1 Vindicate
+2 Wish
+1 EE
Solid list ectoplasm. It's nice seeing personal lists getting in tuned independently, and tuned according to playstyles. I am beginning to feel the unnecessity of tutorbox redundancy. I miss the old approach of Draw-go MUC deep into answers. Kudos for Geoff and the rest for playing a non-tutorbox approach and lists that look solid and optimized.
Been considering the 3rd EE for a while, but I think it's unneccesary when running 3 vindicates. Then again I'm a vindicate-junkie and I'd rather run 4 than 3 so cutting it is not an option :)
I've decided to up the landcount to 24 because I love making landdrops, and I love making landdrops in the face of eva green and stifles even more, which is pretty prevalent around here as well even though merfolk lists seem to cut them.
@Rockout: Thanks
I quite like the MD Enlightened Tutor, but there are tons of cards you can cut, to go to 60. My choices would be:Quote:
Originally Posted by katakis
-1 Enlightened Tutor
It still gives you 4 EE and 4 Standstill and 3 Humility, so one should be enough.
-1 Humility
With Enlightened Tutor it should be enough.
-1 Cunning Wish
I have no real reason, but most of players agree on 2 Cunning Wishes
But If I would play a list like yours I would do:
-1 Humility
-1 Cunning Wish
-1 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Wrath of God
+1 Brainstorm
+1 Standstill
You want to draw Standstill early, especially in a random meta and I won't want to use a wish for it, because I want to use it to win the game. Wrath of God is needed I think, with Disk you have two big sweepers. I always liked the fourth Brainstorm in a Cunning Wish build.
You might want to play a more traditional manabase with Tolaria West instead of a Wasteland. 2 Wastelands as your only LD isn't that hot and Tolaria West can find EE and Academy Ruins.
Ectoplasm:
Wich tournament would you go to. At first glance the change I would make is to remove Academy Ruins. In our meta it isn't really needed. I ended without it 4 times in row top 2.
Preacher is a fun choice, but I wonder how good it would be. It doesn't do much in bad matchups and makes easy matchups a cakewalk. The only difficult matchup where it would be good would be Merfolk, but I like Shackles better there.
BB
It would be Antwerpen, the 30th. I've been considering different kinds of generic 'help' vs creatures like PtE, shackles, sower etc but Preacher seems like a solid choice since he'll probably survive anyway (except vs zoo) since most people board out their spotremoval and it could take them by surprise :) I really like him and I'm going to take him for a testdrive, nothing more nothing less.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benie Bederios
I've actually considered dropping the ruins but it just seems counter-intuitive after adding a disk to the list, I'm gonna give it one more shot but I really wasn't impressed by it last time even though it proved itself to be useful in random testgames.
From what I've seen in store the other day, expect goblins, merfolk and ANT. The ANT player might actually opt for rock. There's a small chance at affinity, a likely showing of TES and some old fashioned counter-top probability.
I'm sure Nathan's gonna be playing merfolk though. We've played through some test games wednesday :).
The previous top 8 had Affinity, Lands/Zur, Merfolk, Eva Green, Eva Green, Gobbos, Rock and Dredge. It was... a diverse field over the day, last time.
We had two high tide decks out there, so that shouldn't be too much of a concern, as one of the players switched to TES.
That's off the top of my head though, hope it helps.
Alright! Thanks for the heads-up at least :D I've never had the guts to drop the meddling mages because last time I dropped my combohate (which was when I played goblins) I got 3 full rounds of ANT and solidarity to goldfish through.
Everybody knows stores generally don't keep up with Deck Check, but I must say it is nice to know your able to surf up my name through that website.Quote:
Originally Posted by xfrt
As for different approaches yes I can be critical, but I know whats good and whats trash; which, apparently you don't and thats ok but don't try to start shit with me when your favoring a deck playing 2 maindeck humility and count them 0 wrath of god in the main. Also 2 spell snare is so .. hmm a year ago? Maybe longer? Everyone knows spell snare is a 3-4 of maindecked in land still.
There isn't an exception in this meta-game besides perhaps Geoff's removal package of:
3 wrath 3 vindicate 3 ee 4 stp 2 disk
which is an absolute monstrosity of removal. But then again who am I to argue with you? I mean so far you've spent your 1 day of posts arguing with the guy who's been backing UWb Wish Still for the last 8-9 months when everyone else said "Oh the meta's too fast, or oh it isn't as efficient as Vindicate."
Let's keep it very clear that you've got basically no credibility here with no list and damn near no posts. Not to mention your trying to pick a fight with someone who doesn't give a fuck what you say. I've tested the FULL meta and so far everyone who comes asking for a model seems to be pretty happy when I show them mine.
Also if your going to talk about my matches try R.T.F.T first instead of deck check. If you read a bit further you'll find that i've played a hell of a lot more tourneys then 2 and if you check this thread, and the old land still thread you'll find I more then likely have alot more experience with this archetype as a whole then you.