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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
DRS is only a Problem if you are unable to respond to your Cabal Ritual if they try to snatch your t.hold or being to shortsighted to cast Infernal->Infernal->PIF and laugh at them trying to stop you by removing Infernal.
Dood, if a single DRS activation per turn is threatening for your life total or enough to stop you from getting T.hold during your first, say 4 turns, I would question your playstyle and skill.
I made a bold Statement because the issue is pretty easy to solve. Take a look at my fucking reports in my sig to see how irrelevant DRS against storm are and save your "but, but, but you have no idea!" crap.
Terror does pretty much the same against Emrakul or Griselbrand that DRS does to storm.
You've wasted a nice chance that I'll ever read your reports just by the fact that you act like a jilted lover.
If you always meet idiots that can't play DRS correctly and simultaneously give you all the time you need and their only discard is Persecute Artist, than I really question where (and whom) exactly you play. Must be those tournamets that start at 1:00 pm during the pause between Gymnastics and Music and singing. In real life, there's that thing called variance and not every time you have a perfect hand (or the ability to sculpt your hand for X turns to get and keep the double Tutor AND acceleration AND maybe even protection). Sometimes (while not always) you don't have the luxury to just laugh at it, sometimes they just defeat you with the said shaman.
I can also win through DRS, I can win through anything, even foil Trinisphere and :7::b: Mind Twist on turn0. But saying that DRS does nothing is stupid, because that creature has words written all over it, so it must do something, unless it's a flavor text.
I seriously question if my friend wasn't right about all the net forums. "I don't join any of them, and even if I do, I hardly ever write or ask anything. All the people act like they're Superman and Obama combined: their hands auto-mull to eleven cards, their FoWs come glued to Ancestrals, and their penises are double the size of yours, no matter that you're native Uganda-born."
I'm done with you and I simply don't care of your other blathering how you're the best planeswalker ever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dzra
As far as ye ole Burning Wish VS Preordain, I have to admit that Preordain does make goldfishing T2s infinitely more consistent. As far as actual games... I've had a lot of trouble with discard + exile effects removing my only Tendrils and leaving me completely dead. Even just naturally drawing the Tendrils when you're on the LED plan makes a lone Deathrite or Nihil Spellbomb really awkward. Burning Wish, while clunky, gets around that.
How come? DRS can't do any harm, read what Teh Master has to say about it. You just do something something while they just stare, then do that and that and then in response [drumroll] you pull the rabbit out of silk hat and Chaos Orb their elf. :rolleyes:
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Anyone ever try playing a tutor/cantrip base of:
4 IT
1 B.Wish
1 Personal Tutor
2 LDV
4 Brainstorm
X Ponder
Y Preordain
1 Gemstone Mine
------------------------
It would mean switching up your sideboard only by 2-3 cards to use this setup as efficiently as needed for those corner-case situations it's needed for. I've been toying with a proxied version so I can test against it with my Deathblade list, and while my list isn't for this thread, it uses this setup and has been quite the contender at least against deathblade. Not the worst matchup for storm, but still fairly difficult when they know you are combo. I would like to hear some discussion on this matter, as I think it shores up some arguments. Here's another argument settled in my opinion: Grim Tutor. It sucks. I tried and tried in tons of different builds to make them useful or good. They are clunky. They are painful, and they are simply not synergistic with the number of mana produced by the mana-accelerants of the deck, or with Ad Nauseam because of the quadruple black mana required to play Grim and Ad Nauseam in the same turn.
-ABC
EDIT: I've also been dwelling on an idea lately that looks to use DRS within storm, as black's first and extremely good mana dork. It mini-tendrils by itself and is also on-color with Swarm and Abrupt Decay. Using Diabolic Intent for a Tutor would be an awesome possibility (play it off a Swarm after attacking with said Swarm) or off the deathrite that helped pay for it. Then there is Culling the Weak. I don't know if its a possible direction, as I am sceptical of creatures within storm. Just floating the idea.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bed Decks Palyer
I seriously question if my friend wasn't right about all the net forums. "I don't join any of them, and even if I do, I hardly ever write or ask anything. All the people act like they're Superman and Obama combined: their hands auto-mull to eleven cards, their FoWs come glued to Ancestrals, and their penises are double the size of yours, no matter that you're native Uganda-born."
Great quote. It applies pretty well to both sides of this little spat. It applies to me too, except that all those things are true for me :cool:
I'm pretty sure everyone in this thread (the world?) knows how to play through Deathrite Shaman, and also that sometimes you can't. You both are acting like you're menstruating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Anyone ever try playing a tutor/cantrip base of:
4 IT
A.B.Wish
??? Personal Tutor
BINGO LDV
W Brainstorm
T Ponder
F Preordain
1 Elephant Graveyard
Did you pull those numbers from a lotto machine? Pretty sure there's been discussion of Personal Tutor before and that it's still worse than the other options. Burning Wish at least puts the card in your hand and gives you access to conditionally powerful cards...unless you're only playing one. Then you're just messing with your sideboard for a 1-of. LDV is a fine card as IT 5-6, but seems to require some slight deck tweaks (Top). Grim Tutor may suck, but playing an awkward amalgamation of random tutors sucks more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombstalker
The problem (if it really is a problem) is the core of legacy storm is so integral it may as well be part of the 10 commandments. The core is so goddamn powerful as to win even when the remainder is built and piloted sub optimally. And thus cabal storm, "ANT" is become decadent arrested development.
What we really need is the fucking 3rd tablet moses never shared, but that would probably just get an entire deck banned.. hey maybe Lejay has it!
This made my day. I'm tempted to put it in my sig.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
apistat_commander
So I like the cantrip heavy lists (I did play Spiral Tide for a long time) but I hate Gemstone Mine. Here is where I am at with my manabase:
4x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
1x Tropical Island
2x Island
1x Swamp
Plus an additional Bayou in the board. I prefer the Misty/Bloodstained split so that I have additional ways of fetching a basic swamp, considering how much access I already have to blue. Mire doesn't grab Trop but it can get Bayou post-board (which is really the only time I want it anyway). What are other people running? Is Gemstone really superior to this configuration?
That's more or less acceptable, but I find 2 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic Island, 2 Island, 1 Swamp and then all U/G Fetchlands with a Tropical Island and a Bayou in the SB is generally more reliable because in the 16 cantrip version of the deck you want to be able to Island, Cantrip. Island, Cantrip, Cantrip thru' Wasteland and win on your third turn as your go to play. You rarely lead with Duress or Cabal Therapy in the cantrip build, at least in game one, instead you lead with Pre-Ordain or Ponder into a Gitaxian Probe by turn 2 and then you know whether or not you need to fetch the Swamp in order to play thru' a counter wall + the possibility of Wasteland over multiple turns.
@People: Xantid Swarm is not for aggro-control, between Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning, Abrupt Decay and Swords to Plowshares it's unreliable at best, Xantid Swarm is for the Show&Tell match up where a resolved Leyline of Sanctity turns off your entire disruption suite otherwise or for any match up that doesn't have an answer to it like Reanimator, High Tide or Merfolk etc.
I think the TES vs ANT arguments are incredibly fucking misinformed, because neither deck is played in a gold fishing vacuum. TES will have a better game in discard or permanent based hate environments, i.e. Jund, Miracles or Maverick where ANT will have a better game in aggro-control environments like RUG, BUG and Blade because of the speed and redundancy vs the stability and consistency respectively. The problem I have with Burning Wish variants of ANT is that people are playing them in environments where TES would be more suitable, I've never played the Grim Tutor version of ANT because of the price of Grim Tutor but facially I can understand why somebody would play it with so much discard in the metagame.
As far as the 1 kill condition getting discarded and removed from the game, I don't think it happens often enough to be worried about it, but one of the things I've been mulling over for awhile is whether or not Ad Nauseam should be replaced with Empty the Warrens in the MD because both cards often have redundant functions vs a lot of the same decks but Empty the Warrens is cheaper and not dependent on your life total. The only draw back to SBing Ad Nauseam is that you probably aren't going to win any of your combo mirros based on speed, but meh.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
@People: Xantid Swarm is not for aggro-control, between Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning, Abrupt Decay and Swords to Plowshares it's unreliable at best, Xantid Swarm is for the Show&Tell match up where a resolved Leyline of Sanctity turns off your entire disruption suite otherwise or for any match up that doesn't have an answer to it like Reanimator, High Tide or Merfolk etc.
I'm not asking to be snarky, but would it not be better to fill that slot with something that can be used in the aggro control matchups? (ie Defense Grid) Even with plenty of discard, RUG and UWR Devler aren't exactly walks in the park. I'd go so far to say that any of those decks would be glad to sit across from a Storm player.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
As far as the 1 kill condition getting discarded and removed from the game, I don't think it happens often enough to be worried about it
I admit that my having awful luck might skew my thinking here, but I've lost every game against Shardless BUG where I've been unlucky enough to naturally draw my Tendrils without a way to Brainstorm it away. This happened twice out of several games last night... the first I got my Tendrils discarded to Hymn or something, followed by him activating his t1 Nihil Spellbomb. The second time, I had a sick hand of double Ritual, double LED, and Infernal Tutor. The downside was that I also had my only Tendrils in hand and he had an active Deathrite. I wait and hope to draw out of it, eat some discard, and lose on the spot. Maybe the answer is simply to board into a second Tendrils against discard?
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dzra
I'm not asking to be snarky, but would it not be better to fill that slot with something that can be used in the aggro control matchups? (ie Defense Grid) Even with plenty of discard, RUG and UWR Devler aren't exactly walks in the park. I'd go so far to say that any of those decks would be glad to sit across from a Storm player.
I admit that my having awful luck might skew my thinking here, but I've lost every game against Shardless BUG where I've been unlucky enough to naturally draw my Tendrils without a way to Brainstorm it away. This happened twice out of several games last night... the first I got my Tendrils discarded to Hymn or something, followed by him activating his t1 Nihil Spellbomb. The second time, I had a sick hand of double Ritual, double LED, and Infernal Tutor. The downside was that I also had my only Tendrils in hand and he had an active Deathrite. I wait and hope to draw out of it, eat some discard, and lose on the spot. Maybe the answer is simply to board into a second Tendrils against discard?
I think it's a psychological problem where the time it does happen, it traumatizes you to the point where you never want it to happen again regardless of whether or not it's objectively good to play Burning Wish etc. I think the second Tendrils is probably not objectively good as well, but I'd really recommend you try cutting Ad Nauseam from the deck in favor of Empty the Warrens.
Haven't messed around with Defense Grid in Storm in a really long time, so I honestly can't say whether or not it's worth playing just to increase the amount of disruption vs aggro-control. My gut feeling is that two mana is too much for any disruption spell in Storm and probably wouldn't be any better than more discard considering the abundance of Abrupt Decay. If I were really tight on SB space, maybe, but I don't usually find that to be a problem in ANT. If you want to play around with it then go for it and let me know if I'm wrong, but I don't really so much potential in the card because I already do pretty well vs RUG and Blade as is.
On another note, LDV and Top seem really good in the metagame right now, I think Carsten is probably on to something with top deck manipulation vs extra cantripping in a Thoughtseize run world.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bed Decks Palyer
You've wasted a nice chance that I'll ever read your reports just by the fact that you act like a jilted lover.
If you always meet idiots that can't play DRS correctly and simultaneously give you all the time you need and their only discard is Persecute Artist, than I really question where (and whom) exactly you play. Must be those tournamets that start at 1:00 pm during the pause between Gymnastics and Music and singing. In real life, there's that thing called variance and not every time you have a perfect hand (or the ability to sculpt your hand for X turns to get and keep the double Tutor AND acceleration AND maybe even protection). Sometimes (while not always) you don't have the luxury to just laugh at it, sometimes they just defeat you with the said shaman.
I can also win through DRS, I can win through anything, even foil Trinisphere and :7::b: Mind Twist on turn0. But saying that DRS does nothing is stupid, because that creature has words written all over it, so it must do something, unless it's a flavor text.
I seriously question if my friend wasn't right about all the net forums. "I don't join any of them, and even if I do, I hardly ever write or ask anything. All the people act like they're Superman and Obama combined: their hands auto-mull to eleven cards, their FoWs come glued to Ancestrals, and their penises are double the size of yours, no matter that you're native Uganda-born."
I'm done with you and I simply don't care of your other blathering how you
It's your choice to ignore the detailed reports I once handed out to demystify the TES deck and give insight how to tackle certain matchups (most peeps on the Source found them very enteraining and helpful; maybe you'll get over it and take a peek), just for the reason we two have a heated discussion about how relevant DRS is against decks which aim to present a lethal PIF/AN/EtW within the first 3 turns of their game.
Sadly you still lack an explaination why TES is a bad deck due to Burning Wish rather than just BECAUSE the deck contains the card. :/
It would be really helpful if you stop the habit of making bold claims about things you never tested (Gemstone Mine), things a third Person just told you (Basic-less 4c manabase) or things you imagine/Wish for (all ~30 Players in my tournament just being bad at the game 'cause you can't stand me or my arguments).
You can insult me, but attacking the credibility of other people by a strawman is classless even if the Obama/Superman speach was excellent. :)
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
It would be really helpful if you stop the habit of making bold claims about things you never tested (Gemstone Mine), things a third Person just told you (Basic-less 4c manabase) or things you imagine/Wish for (all ~30 Players in my tournament just being bad at the game 'cause you can't stand me or my arguments).
It would be really helpful if you stop the habit of making bold statement about what I ever tested or not. Also, if you can't understand hyperbole (e.g.: I don't think that every person you ever met is an idiot), feel free to skip my posts.
Quote:
Sadly you still lack an explaination why TES is a bad deck due to Burning Wish rather than just BECAUSE the deck contains the card. :/
Look it up, then. I already wrote it: the clunky multi-BW/IT hands, strange Brainstorms, a bit harder decision trees and Chrome Mox alone would be enough, but the FACT THAT TES ISN'T A DTB may quench your curiosity.
But I may be mistaken. After all, what is good and what's not is personal opinion, right?
Quote:
It's your choice to ignore the detailed reports I once handed out to demystify the TES deck and give insight how to tackle certain matchups..., just for the reason we two have a heated discussion.
No, I chose to do so because I don't like pompous people.
/menses
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
The DtB section on TheSource isn't defined by a decks strength and Individual performance but indicates trends and the frequency you'll face the deck. ANT is a much more likely storm.dec to face than TES thus it remains here.
The fact that we had Burn.dec/Meerfolk/etc. listed as a DtB for ages and that there's a current discussion about the parameters to define a DtB in the Community Section of the forum might give a clue, that being listed as a DtB isn't all that important.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
lemnear is a tes player, so i cant blame him for his vision about storm combo. i play both decks and when i play tes, some hands makes me think that ant is the way to go XDD, but well, i won a candelabra of tawnos playing tes
Anyway, the think is that ant and tnt are equally good. is a metagame choice and nothing else
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bed Decks Palyer
It would be really helpful if you stop the habit of making bold statement about what I ever tested or not. Also, if you can't understand hyperbole (e.g.: I don't think that every person you ever met is an idiot), feel free to skip my posts.
Look it up, then. I already wrote it: the clunky multi-BW/IT hands, strange Brainstorms, a bit harder decision trees and Chrome Mox alone would be enough, but the FACT THAT TES ISN'T A DTB may quench your curiosity.
But I may be mistaken. After all, what is good and what's not is personal opinion, right?
No, I chose to do so because I don't like pompous people.
/menses
In favor of Lemnear
TES is much more difficult to play than ANT, this is a fact, the reason - you have a much larger decisión tree,
I've won several Tournaments with ANT (more small than big tournaments) and not many with TES, Thats why when gitaxian appeared made TES much better as the decisión tree is smaller, At first I did not want to play Gitaxian for this same reason, In order to play TES perfectly you need to have a brain that can memorize all possibles plays OR have been played TES for years, you also need to 'smell' your opponent.
I've won tournaments with DDFT, topeitghted in a 80 people with DDFT, but not yet with TES,
On difficult matter for me: TES > DDFT > ANT, at least for me, DDFT once you know the piles is quite easy to play.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
The DtB section on TheSource isn't defined by a decks strength and Individual performance but indicates trends and the frequency you'll face the deck. ANT is a much more likely storm.dec to face than TES thus it remains here.
The fact that we had Burn.dec/Meerfolk/etc. listed as a DtB for ages and that there's a current discussion about the parameters to define a DtB in the Community Section of the forum might give a clue, that being listed as a DtB isn't all that important.
Why do you nitpick up just one parameter I defined? Also, check "why Doomsday sucks" thread to learn about the "unforgiving" and "hard to master" decks. Sadly, I must quote IBA, but the reason why some of the decks are not played / don't Top8 is the fact that they're... unforgiving, hard to master and bad.
Btw, I didn't even wrote that TES is bad, as you still try to put into my keyboard. I wrote it's worse than ANT, not bad per se. In fact I assume TES a Tier 1,5 deck. Tier 2 at worst.
On sounds and such:
You still ask for a sound reasoning on my lands. I already wrote two times that (mainly when you're on the play) you may easily go for the non-basics because the opponent can't start wasting (even if he starts with Waste, which isn't 100% guaranteed; it's neither a basic land nor Relentless Rats) you without deploying threats and/or keeping mana open for Pierce/Snare/REB/Stifle. The only reason why I tinker with an idea of keeping one basic in (read: Island) are those hands (namely when on draw) where we open with a sole fetch. So or so, fetching an Island lets you Ponder/BS on turn 1, then again on turn 2 (and keep the second fetch uncracked in case you fear Waste) and then burst on turn 3. So yes, I think I'll use 4 Delta, 4 Tarn, 1 Island, 6 nonbasics (alternatively 2 Tarn + 2 Mire to be able to fetch Bayou, but I much more like the ability to sell the Mires), but that's about that. On the Gem Mine affair: we can't fetch the land, so there's little gain in it's 5-color mana ability, as we don't see it often enough. I'd rather have my lands that tap for less mana (but I may search the necessary one with a fetchland) and I'd rather don't use (many) basics so that I may have access to any color I need, which is crucial esp. post-sb, when you need green for your sb cards, etc. (That's also the reason why I hesitate to cut Bayou. But I'm not willing to move it into sb to save slots.)
On tests:
You are mistaken by the fact that I wrote "lets see what happens" concerning the tourney that starts tomorrow evening. This doesn't mean that this setting is untested. First of all, Slosh tested it and plays it without much trouble. I wasn't at a tournament with it yet (hence the "lets see..." phrase), but a) I tested it a lot (there's a miraculous program called Magic:the Workstation that lets you test over the internet; it's completely free and you may spend hours with friends... hey, even with randoms - but in this case remember to immediatelly quit any person that greets you "ciao" or "salut".) and b) I believe in what Slosh says and to his experience. I know that it might make you jealous (what other reason would be to try to convince me that it's you not Slosh - or anyone else out of all the internet alter egos that frequent this site -, who's right). Look: I may trust anyone I wish to and I decided to trust to (and try) Slosh's approach.
On lands:
Basically one may try the "old" lands composition of the "old" decks (I mainly think of UBr ANT/Iggy Pop) that sports up to three basics and dodges Waste like a champ. But I don't feel comfortable with me not having access to colored mana in the "new" lists that incorporate several colored spells esp. in post-board games. For the reasons stated above (and also as an offer to you) I decided to run at least the miser's Island so that I'm not stuck landless when I open with the infamous one-lander and Ponder bricks. Imagine it's fetchable GemMine.
As for DRS (and trust me, this is painful to write, cause everybody knows how to play around him and still everybody loses to him/her/whatever-its-gender sometimes.):
You act like DRS shortcut stands for Woodland Druid, but honestly, DRS has even more text all around him and none of it is a flavour one. In fact it has three abilities that use words "exile" and "graveyard" very close to each other. You may argue as hard as you can and pretend that you don't care of DRS (and thus look very pompous), but if you'd take a minute to read your own words, you'll realize that DRS at least forces you to rethink your usual play and change plans adequatelly, sometimes he even forces you to twiddle for turns until you got your double-IT hand or whatever - read: DRS does something. Which is hardly the same as "DRS does nothing". This is esp. true when they are on play and start with him turn 1; this way the guy (or girl) suppresses thresh, eats life total and generally does a lot to stop both AdN and PiF. Also, when we're at it: how come you're always having double-IT hand (and do not fear any opponents' counteracting), while they never have double DRS and sit on triple Swords? Because, you know, they may let you resolve PiF and then eat both the ITs and let you durdle with Ponder->Ponder->Preordain->BS->GP->loss to Norwood Ranger, all this while pretending that you even have mana for this stuff, because CRit doesn't have all the death metal skulls over it when you have three cards in gy, so you needed to sac LED to pay for PiF.
If you want to play the game where you name a combo, then I name one that stops it, then you name another one.. make a different thread. However, this point counterpoint thing is fucking pointless. And Deathrite Shaman is not Sanctuary Cat, go check them.
Quote:
Take a look at my fucking reports in my sig to see how irrelevant DRS against storm are and save your "but, but, but you have no idea!" crap.
Dude, I don't fear DRS. Btw, when speaking of MtG, I fear nothing. Hey, I'm the person who takes a completely non-basics ANT to our lgs and goes home with Tundra tomorrow evening. But writing crap like you wrote above makes you look like it's you who knows about the ANT exactly the same as DRS does against it. (Now, I wanna see how you'll cope with this gimmick...)
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bed Decks Palyer
On sounds and such:
You still ask for a sound reasoning on my lands. I already wrote two times that (mainly when you're on the play) you may easily go for the non-basics because the opponent can't start wasting (even if he starts with Waste, which isn't 100% guaranteed; it's neither a basic land nor Relentless Rats) you without deploying threats and/or keeping mana open for Pierce/Snare/REB/Stifle. The only reason why I tinker with an idea of keeping one basic in (read: Island) are those hands (namely when on draw) where we open with a sole fetch. So or so, fetching an Island lets you Ponder/BS on turn 1, then again on turn 2 (and keep the second fetch uncracked in case you fear Waste) and then burst on turn 3. So yes, I think I'll use 4 Delta, 4 Tarn, 1 Island, 6 nonbasics (alternatively 2 Tarn + 2 Mire to be able to fetch Bayou, but I much more like the ability to sell the Mires), but that's about that. On the Gem Mine affair: we can't fetch the land, so there's little gain in it's 5-color mana ability, as we don't see it often enough. I'd rather have my lands that tap for less mana (but I may search the necessary one with a fetchland) and I'd rather don't use (many) basics so that I may have access to any color I need, which is crucial esp. post-sb, when you need green for your sb cards, etc. (That's also the reason why I hesitate to cut Bayou. But I'm not willing to move it into sb to save slots.)
On tests:
You are mistaken by the fact that I wrote "lets see what happens" concerning the tourney that starts tomorrow evening. This doesn't mean that this setting is untested. First of all, Slosh tested it and plays it without much trouble. I wasn't at a tournament with it yet (hence the "lets see..." phrase), but a) I tested it a lot (there's a miraculous program called Magic:the Workstation that lets you test over the internet; it's completely free and you may spend hours with friends... hey, even with randoms - but in this case remember to immediatelly quit any person that greets you "ciao" or "salut".) and b) I believe in what Slosh says and to his experience. I know that it might make you jealous (what other reason would be to try to convince me that it's you not Slosh - or anyone else out of all the internet alter egos that frequent this site -, who's right). Look: I may trust anyone I wish to and I decided to trust to (and try) Slosh's approach.
On lands:
Basically one may try the "old" lands composition of the "old" decks (I mainly think of UBr ANT/Iggy Pop) that sports up to three basics and dodges Waste like a champ. But I don't feel comfortable with me not having access to colored mana in the "new" lists that incorporate several colored spells esp. in post-board games. For the reasons stated above (and also as an offer to you) I decided to run at least the miser's Island so that I'm not stuck landless when I open with the infamous one-lander and Ponder bricks. Imagine it's fetchable GemMine.
I don't agree with either of you, not only are Badlands, Tropical Island and Bayou a liability in the MD but they're also completely unnecessary, provided you're not playing Burning Wish, the only red cards in your deck are Past in Flames and Empty Warrens and the only green cards in your deck are SBed. Considering SB space in Storm decks is abundant, again provided your not playing Burning Wish, there's no reason to decrease your win percentage vs Wasteland game 1 just in order to save on SB space.
Gemstone Mine is also bad, it's a Wasteland target and it destroys itself after three turns in a deck that frequently plays past turn three vs aggro-control or control in order to provide access to red mana, which you need for at most 2 cards that both come at the end of an Infernal Tutor and Lion's Eye Diamond activation anyway, and green mana, which you don't need until you SB in Xantid Swarm and/or Abrupt Decay of which you don't SB either vs any deck with Wasteland regardless.
In other news, does any one else think Personal Tutor is borderline playable?
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SaberTooth
lemnear is a tes player, so i cant blame him for his vision about storm combo.
In all honest, just because I'm used to write the HotS-reports piloting TES doesn't mean I do/did not play all previous/current iterations of storm. I'm very familiar with UBr ANT and am amused by the Return of LDV which was a direct substitute for Mystical right after it's banning and sleeve it up here and there for larger tournaments. I do play TRS Doomsday and Elves too. Marking me a TES fanatic is far from the truth.
Choosing the most complex storm iteration just made sense to write in-depths reports and guides about.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
In other news, does any one else think Personal Tutor is borderline playable?
If Personal Tutor was a instant it would be borderline playable. The ability to tutor for a utility card during your upkeep is pretty good. But the fact is its a sorcery which means that you have to pass your turn in general before you have access to the card you tutor for and it doesn't normally build storm for you. I would rather just play with preordain or a singleton Snapcaster mage.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
That's more or less acceptable, but I find 2 Underground Sea, 1 Volcanic Island, 2 Island, 1 Swamp and then all U/G Fetchlands with a Tropical Island and a Bayou in the SB is generally more reliable because in the 16 cantrip version of the deck you want to be able to Island, Cantrip. Island, Cantrip, Cantrip thru' Wasteland and win on your third turn as your go to play. You rarely lead with Duress or Cabal Therapy in the cantrip build, at least in game one, instead you lead with Pre-Ordain or Ponder into a Gitaxian Probe by turn 2 and then you know whether or not you need to fetch the Swamp in order to play thru' a counter wall + the possibility of Wasteland over multiple turns.
Yeah, I want to fetch a basic Island most of the time. That is the beauty of the 16-cantrip version. You get to fetch basics then cantrip every turn FTW. So is this what you are running:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire/Scalding Tarn/etc.
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
Then swapping in a Trop and Bayou for two fetches or fetch/Island post board?
Speaking of post-board, I have some questions about what people are boarding out. Here is how I generally view things:
- Preordain: These are the "extra" cantrips. I shave these when I want my full set of Probes and discard (so most blue decks), but something else from the board.
- Gitaxian Probe: These are less useful against decks without counters. They do make Cabal Therapy better but beyond that I would rather have Chain of Vapor/Abrupt Decay. I cut these against decks bringing in permanent based hate.
- Duress: I cut these when I know my opponent is bringing in creature-based permanent hate (Maverick, DnT). However I might leave these in against something like Jund, which is mostly hoping to disrupt you with discard.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
In all honest, just because I'm used to write the HotS-reports piloting TES doesn't mean I do/did not play all previous/current iterations of storm. I'm very familiar with UBr ANT and am amused by the Return of LDV which was a direct substitute for Mystical right after it's banning and sleeve it up here and there for larger tournaments. I do play TRS Doomsday and Elves too. Marking me a TES fanatic is far from the truth.
Choosing the most complex storm iteration just made sense to write in-depths reports and guides about.
Maybe, but your "DRS is nothing" argument is strange. It's easy to play around a DRS theorically, but in real games is more difficult. For example, playing ANT i need a tutor chain or ad nauseam to evade the little elf (going off with pif is possible too of course, but you need a lot o cards), but the decks that runs DRS are packed with a lot of discard, so a turn 1 DRS and a turn 2 Hymn is a very powerful play against ant that is a slower combo than tes, and is a very common play for jund for example. Again, of course Ant can beat a DRS, but there are escenarios where is not that easy.
On build's topic, i think that the real problem is that there is a little space to discuss the card choices because the decklist are so tight
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SaberTooth
Maybe, but your "DRS is nothing" argument is strange. It's easy to play around a DRS theorically, but in real games is more difficult. For example, playing ANT i need a tutor chain or ad nauseam to evade the little elf (going off with pif is possible too of course, but you need a lot o cards), but the decks that runs DRS are packed with a lot of discard, so a turn 1 DRS and a turn 2 Hymn is a very powerful play against ant that is a slower combo than tes, and is a very common play for jund for example. Again, of course Ant can beat a DRS, but there are escenarios where is not that easy.
On build's topic, i think that the real problem is that there is a little space to discuss the card choices because the decklist are so tight
Tbh about 40% of my games against DRS are with TES due to my lack of time to play in general and for the HotS reports and the lil' Elf is a much lesser Problem for the 5c storm if you AN/EtW/DR in the first 3 turns and are less depending on PIF.
Even if I'd love to take that fact and the omnipresence of DRS to label TES the superior choice for a meta packed with Discard and 1cc Hybrid mana graveyard hate, I want to ignore those games and focus on the recent experience piloting UBr ANT (which I do if I expect facing a shitload of mana denial in a meta or am too tired to navigate Wishes for 7+ rounds after a day at work).
I'm used to fetch a Basic Island (that's why I was so biased to see a list without it but a lot of non-blue Duals instead) and just play several cantrips per turn (playing 16-cantrips), floating my biz ontop of my library and gather my mana in hand or on board. Doing this for 3-4 turns should fill your grave to t.hold and beyond, despite an active DRS. All you have to do then is drawing your floated Infernal, play out all your mana and go for the PIF loop and/or Tutor-chain.
Considering DRS alone, that's 6 lost life and 3 removed cards. Sure we won't discuss variations like enabling a turn 3 Bloodbraid Elf into Hymn, but aside the 3 removed cards, which can be negated within the 16-cantrip Version of ANT very easily, he did not harm you more than a Kird Ape which I hyperboled into "doing nothing" as long as he's not Part of a triangle paired with a flurry of discard (Taking all your mana) and increased damage with BBE, Tarmogoyf, an Army of Elves and Shardless Agent which would distract us from the initial question.
Being on the dealing (BGw Elves) and receiving (TES, UBr ANT, TRS Doomsday) end of DRS I dare to disagree with It being itself a real gamebreaker in the storm matchup.
@Secretly.A.Bee
Classy post -.-
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bed Decks Palyer
You've wasted a nice chance that I'll ever read your reports just by the fact that you act like a jilted lover.
...(or the ability to sculpt your hand for X turns to get and keep the double Tutor AND acceleration AND maybe even protection)....
Let me get this right...you turn something like this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
cast Infernal->Infernal->PIF
which is by all means a simple tutorchain which requires 2 more mana for each additional active DRS into something like:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
sometimes he even forces you to twiddle for turns until you got your double-IT hand
and that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
how come you're always having double-IT hand
neither of which is required, while posting stuff like:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
As for DRS (and trust me, this is painful to write, cause everybody knows how to play around him and still everybody loses to him/her/whatever-its-gender sometimes.)
and this
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
who knows about the ANT exactly the same as DRS does against it
I'm starting to think you are just trying to troll us all.
If the things you posted are meant serious you might take a look at Carsten's latest Article as it is focused on helping people get used to the deck.
No offense...
Greetings Chris
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
@Secretly.A.Bee
Classy post -.-
Thanks, I've been reading yours and I gotta say you wouldn't know "classy" if it kicked you in the groin.
As to a second Tendrils, I think it's a wonderful choice. Double tendrils is awesome in the situations being discussed currently (DRS, discard/having ToA in your hand, disallowing you from your win-turn). Really turns that singleton BWish I use into a gem.
-ABC
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
Thanks, I've been reading yours and I gotta say you wouldn't know "classy" if it kicked you in the groin.
As to a second Tendrils, I think it's a wonderful choice. Double tendrils is awesome in the situations being discussed currently (DRS, discard/having ToA in your hand, disallowing you from your win-turn). Really turns that singleton BWish I use into a gem.
-ABC
Unlike my fellow discussion Partner and me, you manage to spend a whole Paragraph and more than 100 words without targeting the topic instead of the user.
I doubt that Double Tendrils is any good outside of the discard-and-exile-scenario to justify running 2 rather than a single EtW :/
@Mindlash
Props for the effort to pick up all those quotes.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
apistat_commander
Yeah, I want to fetch a basic Island most of the time. That is the beauty of the 16-cantrip version. You get to fetch basics then cantrip every turn FTW. So is this what you are running:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire/Scalding Tarn/etc.
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Swamp
Then swapping in a Trop and Bayou for two fetches or fetch/Island post board?
Speaking of post-board, I have some questions about what people are boarding out. Here is how I generally view things:
- Preordain: These are the "extra" cantrips. I shave these when I want my full set of Probes and discard (so most blue decks), but something else from the board.
- Gitaxian Probe: These are less useful against decks without counters. They do make Cabal Therapy better but beyond that I would rather have Chain of Vapor/Abrupt Decay. I cut these against decks bringing in permanent based hate.
- Duress: I cut these when I know my opponent is bringing in creature-based permanent hate (Maverick, DnT). However I might leave these in against something like Jund, which is mostly hoping to disrupt you with discard.
I don't use a 9th Fetchland, the Abrupt Decays and lands are usually SBed in for otherwise dead disruption, vs Goblins + Thalia for instance there's no reason to keep 3 Duress and 4 Cabal Therapy in the deck while vs Miracles and Counterebalance you can substitute an Island and a Swamp for a Tropical Island and a Bayou because they don't play Wasteland.
I cut Gitaxian Probe when I've either seen the opponent's MD hate game 1, for instance Thalia or Teeg, or I've seen the opponent's SB hate game 2, for instance Chalice of the Void or Thorn of Amathyst, where I can then utilize Cabal Therapy with more accurate information.
I don't SB out Pre-Ordain as much as other people seem to, I prefer it to Ponder quite often because I tend to lead with Fetchlands vs Wasteland decks so the guaranteed card filtering via Scry is more consistent.
@Lemnear
How do you justify comparing DRS vs TES and DRS vs ANT and generalize that it does nothing vs the archetype as a whole? Losing cards in your graveyard and taking 2 damage is a problem for a deck with Cabal Ritual, and regardless of whether or not the problem is surmountable speaking in platitutdes just makes you look ignorant.
As it is, after having cut Ad Nauseam, I'm strongly considering Thoughtseize over Duress just to be able to blindly hit Thalia or Vendilion Clique.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
How do you justify comparing DRS vs TES and DRS vs ANT and generalize that it does nothing vs the archetype as a whole? Losing cards in your graveyard and taking 2 damage is a problem for a deck with Cabal Ritual, and regardless of whether or not the problem is surmountable speaking in platitutdes just makes you look ignorant.
I DID differ TES and ANT in regards to DRS and played against DRS with the later and already explained my points about the 2 damage and 1 exiled card per turn, if you just chain cantrips for 2-3 turns to fill your graveyard (and that all from the perspective of ANT, like the Double-IT-topic Mindlash picked up). While the card can sure be an annoyance, DRS is far from being a gamebreaker or we can discuss Knight of the Reliquary -> Bojuka Bog out of Maverick and Crop Rotation -> Bog out of Elves too and due to my experience the issue with DRS is a minor one so I used the hyperbole to comment on that.
-
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
I don't use a 9th Fetchland, the Abrupt Decays and lands are usually SBed in for otherwise dead disruption, vs Goblins + Thalia for instance there's no reason to keep 3 Duress and 4 Cabal Therapy in the deck while vs Miracles and Counterebalance you can substitute an Island and a Swamp for a Tropical Island and a Bayou because they don't play Wasteland.
I cut Gitaxian Probe when I've either seen the opponent's MD hate game 1, for instance Thalia or Teeg, or I've seen the opponent's SB hate game 2, for instance Chalice of the Void or Thorn of Amathyst, where I can then utilize Cabal Therapy with more accurate information.
I don't SB out Pre-Ordain as much as other people seem to, I prefer it to Ponder quite often because I tend to lead with Fetchlands vs Wasteland decks so the guaranteed card filtering via Scry is more consistent.
@Lemnear
How do you justify comparing DRS vs TES and DRS vs ANT and generalize that it does nothing vs the archetype as a whole? Losing cards in your graveyard and taking 2 damage is a problem for a deck with Cabal Ritual, and regardless of whether or not the problem is surmountable speaking in platitutdes just makes you look ignorant.
As it is, after having cut Ad Nauseam, I'm strongly considering Thoughtseize over Duress just to be able to blindly hit Thalia or Vendilion Clique.
Hm...mentioning the 2 from DRS damage while advocating Thoughtseize seems like a problem to?!
He also said that he plays not TES only and the way to beat DRS was aimed at ANT. At least it works for ANT. TES has some more options (obviously).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
@Mindlash
Props for the effort to pick up all those quotes.
Well no problem :-) I just can't stand peeps talk shit and twist other peeps words. This thread gets a pain in the ass more and more.
People claim some weird things and stuff...I had to re-read my post like ten times cause I thought: well...it is tutor chain?! But this other guy..he can't be that dumb can he?!
Sometimes I really get confused by this shit...
-
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mindlash
Let me get this right...
I'm starting to think you are just trying to troll us all.
If the things you posted are meant serious you might take a look at Carsten's latest Article as it is focused on helping people get used to the deck.
No offense...
Greetings Chris
I was trying hard to understand what's your point, but then I gave up. So, DRS is new Sanctuary Cat. I wish I new it before I bought them...
Look, double IT FTW may mean anything. If you have mana and cards available for IT chain, then DRS does nothing. If, for whatever the reason you need to play PiF combo (e.g. been hit by BSkull), then the fact that DRS exiles card may be of importance. (And in this case you need two ITs unless you wish to rely on PiFed cantrips... which might be exiled on previous turns.) This might become problem when games last longer, because DRSx2 eat your grave, while Hymn+stuff eats your hand and Decays hits onto-the-battlefield sandbagged LEDs and Pierces screw your cantrips/Rituals or you know whatever the gold fish decided to do.
Basically I was opposing Lemnears statement that DRS does nothing against PiF. Even if it was a hyperbole (which is unlikely, go look up his vehemence on this matter), it still isn't true, because PiF is a graveyard engine and DRS hits cards in gy. Pedobear approved.
Quote:
Losing cards in your graveyard and taking 2 damage is a problem for a deck with Cabal Ritual, and regardless of whether or not the problem is surmountable speaking in platitutdes just makes you look ignorant.
I'd sig it.
Subject has nothing more to add to the point testified, he agrees with the protocol, and he leaves in a stable condition.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bed Decks Palyer
I was trying hard to understand what's your point, but then I gave up. So, DRS is new Sanctuary Cat. I wish I new it before I bought them...
Look, double IT FTW may mean anything. If you have mana and cards available for IT chain, then DRS does nothing. If, for whatever the reason you need to play PiF combo (e.g. been hit by BSkull), then the fact that DRS exiles card may be of importance. (And in this case you need two ITs unless you wish to rely on PiFed cantrips... which might be exiled on previous turns.) This might become problem when games last longer, because DRSx2 eat your grave, while Hymn+stuff eats your hand and Decays hits onto-the-battlefield sandbagged LEDs and Pierces screw your cantrips/Rituals or you know whatever the gold fish decided to do.
Basically I was opposing Lemnears statement that DRS does nothing against PiF. Even if it was a hyperbole (which is unlikely, go look up his vehemence on this matter), it still isn't true, because PiF is a graveyard engine and DRS hits cards in gy. Pedobear approved.
I'd sig it.
Subject has nothing more to add to the point testified, he agrees with the protocol, and he leaves in a stable condition.
If you are forced for whatever reason: DRS does nothing against PiF...never! It just can't because of the fucking rulebook and priorities if you play it right!
And you don't tutorchain into win and don't start with all tutors in hand....you tutor into tutor into pif (add 2 mana and 1 tutor in deck for an active DRS)....damn whats wrong with you? How is that hard to achieve?!
Nobody has a problem with you beeing new to storm...the problem is you acting like a dick...thats all...
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
I know this is sort of futile since all of these Storm lists are so nailed down and there is little wiggle room... However, I am still really new to the deck and would like to hear what people think about the 75 I've decided on. I've decided on UBr ANT because I really like the idea of more business in the form of another 2 mana tutor. Also... You guys are all here arguing with each other anyway, you might as well tell me what you think of my deck while you're here :P
Exactly how horrible is the singleton Telemin Performance idea? I have never seen anyone do it and it is really tempting to mise blowouts without needing Storm, like if your hand gets stripped and you rip a BT.
x4 Brainstorm
x4 Ponder
x4 Gitaxian Probe
x2 Preordain
x4 Cabal Ritual
x4 Dark Ritual
x4 Duress
x3 Cabal Therapy
x4 Infernal Tutor
x2 Burning Wish
x1 Past in Flames
x1 Ad Nauseum
x1 Tendrils of Agony
x4 Lion's Eye Diamond
x4 Lotus Petal
x4 Polluted Delta
x3 Scalding Tarn
x1 Bloodstained Mire
x2 Underground Sea
x1 Badlands
x1 Volcanic Island
x1 Swamp
x1 Island
*SB*
x1 Tropical Island
x2 Dread of Night
x3 Xantid Swarm
x3 Abrupt Decay
x2 Chain of Vapor
x1 Tendrils of Agony
x1 Telemin Performance
x1 Emtpy the Warrens
x1 Thoughtseize
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mindlash
If you are forced for whatever reason: DRS does nothing against PiF...never! It just can't because of the fucking rulebook and priorities if you play it right!
If they take out the ITs with PiF on stack, you can't playthem, amirite? check rulebook, you little twit.
[awaits the bash out "but you don't need two ITs, you just tutor chain"]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mindlash
And you don't tutorchain into win and don't start with all tutors in hand....you tutor into tutor into pif (add 2 mana and 1 tutor in deck for an active DRS)
Which clearly means that DRS DOES something as he forces you to make a different play. And sometimes (against a real opponent, not your kindergarten brother), this may be difference betwen winning and losing.
Quote:
....damn whats wrong with you? How is that hard to achieve?!
Are you seriously asking me why there is trouble to achieve something in a non-goldfish world?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mindlash
Nobody has a problem with me beeing new to storm...the problem is I am acting like a dick...thats all...
Fixed for you.
Btw, you idiot, I really know how to play IT chains and I really won through DRS more times than you'd get laid. But reading statements like "DRS does nothing" when it clearly does something makes me wonder whom are those ppl behind their profiles.
Also, find a girl. It'll help you to calm down.
edit:
Quote:
x1 Telemin Performance
I played some :b::b::b: sorcery that reads "remove up to three cards from their library" and it had massive kicker and then it took out seven or so. I'm not sure if this card is better, but basically I'm not really thrilled of both of them.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
My opinion on some of the cards discussed:
I don't really see a reason for Badlands with only Past in Flames (and possibly an Empty somewhere). The only time I'd consider it is if I was playing no green SB and several EtW in the board.
I can live with 1 green dual MD & 1 SB or with 1-2 SB and none main depending on your sb space.
Someone said basics had no use; reallllly? I would never play less than 1 Island and hardly ever less than 1 swamp in ANT.
I´m not a fan of Gemstone Mines since much of ANT´s strength comes from strong cantrips, part of which is derived from a lot of fetchlands.
All in all I like 1 Island, 1 Swamp, 2 Sea, 1 Volc (I only cut it in UBw(g) which isn't worth it atm anyways), 9 Fetch and then a fetch/2nd island/green dual as 15th/16th lands depending on the meta and your sb plans. The 1st Mox as 16th land (or 15th in a Wish build) is not the worst, but I'd rather stay away from that card.
I would only board Defense Grid if I was playing chant effects, it never quite convinced me in a UB(r) build.
Xantid Swarm on the other hand is a card I really like if I expect SnT decks (Or better: Counters + Leyline decks) and Merfolk.
As for the Telemin Performance/Sadistic Sacrament/Extract, only play them when you expect loads of combo (in which case a non-white combo deck is a bad meta choice).
While I think Burning Wish is insane in Doomsday and good in TES I find it mediocre in ANT since having to to BW->GT->PiF->GT for the preferred engine is quite weak. I like 1-2 Grim Tutor over 4 Preordain myself but the 16 cantrip version is definately not bad. I haven't tested enough LDV to give a real opinion, but usually the card exites me and then dissapoints in testing (mainly tried to make UB DDFT builds work).
I think Personal Tutor is close to playable in UB Doomsday, but not anywhere near there in ANT, I'd much rather have Grim Tutor here.
I don't think Shaman is a consideration for us, since it turns dead cards on (and it takes too much space in the board for what it does imo). It is definately not "nothing" against us either (although it basicly is nothing versus TES). Yes, we can frequently win around it. But it puts a strain on my options more often than I'd like.
-
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamieW89
I haven't tested enough LDV to give a real opinion, but usually the card exites me and then dissapoints in testing (mainly tried to make UB DDFT builds work).
What's your testing ground? I find it extremely annoying (especially for the opponent) to play with this card on MWS, thus I didn't test it much.
Quote:
I think Personal Tutor is close to playable in UB Doomsday, but not anywhere near there in ANT, I'd much rather have Grim Tutor here.
Maybe in 16 cantrips it may be good. IDK, I played 16 cantrips just for a while, because I had bad luck with it, always just durdling and durdling, unable to find anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamieW89
I don't think Shaman is a consideration for us, since it turns dead cards on (and it takes too much space in the board for what it does imo). It is definately not "nothing" against us either (although it basicly is nothing versus TES). Yes, we can frequently win around it. But it puts a strain on my options more often than I'd like.
Exactly my thoughts. But seen how this makes some ppl mad, I'd rather admit that he it does nothing, before Mindlash collapses.
-
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bed Decks Palyer
If they take out the ITs with PiF on stack, you can't playthem, amirite? check rulebook, you little twit.
[awaits the bash out "but you don't need two ITs, you just tutor chain"]
Which clearly means that DRS DOES something as he forces you to make a different play. And sometimes (against a real opponent, not your kindergarten brother), this may be difference betwen winning and losing.
Are you seriously asking me why there is trouble to achieve something in a non-goldfish world?
Fixed for you.
Btw, you idiot, I really know how to play IT chains and I really won through DRS more times than you'd get laid. But reading statements like "DRS does nothing" when it clearly does something makes me wonder whom are those ppl behind their profiles.
Also, find a girl. It'll help you to calm down.
edit:
I played some :b::b::b: sorcery that reads "remove up to three cards from their library" and it had massive kicker and then it took out seven or so. I'm not sure if this card is better, but basically I'm not really thrilled of both of them.
It's so cute seeing you in rage...calm down bro. It is not my problem, if you are having problems with DRS :-) Going down to insult me in RL shows your real skill in magic as well as in argumentation. Got me there...I give up :-/
And quit your goldfishin shit pls...no one who can play the deck and should be considered an equal discussion partner should be goldfishin anyways...so stop insulting us around the corner.
God dammit...the Italian back in time could at least play the deck without problems without bragging like a child posting shit or like they are menstruating....
-
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mindlash
It's so cute seeing you in rage...calm down bro. It is not my problem, if you are having problems with DRS :-) Going down to insult me in RL shows your real skill in magic as well as in argumentation. Got me there...I give up :-/
And quit your goldfishin shit pls...no one who can play the deck and should be considered an equal discussion partner should be goldfishin anyways...so stop insulting us around the corner.
God dammit...the Italian back in time could at least play the deck without problems without bragging like a child posting shit or like they are menstruating....
You started with the "D" word, so eat your own medicine. Also, I don't brag about DRS and I mainly don't care of the card, and if you could read, you'd already notice it. But what I dislike is that people here act like DRS has no ability, which is definitely not true and sometimes these abilities are annoying. Thus I made some examples when they may matter - not that I always lose to them and then gonna cry to my mama.
If you fail to understand this, you may just as well fuck off since then you'd be much better discussion partner than now.
-
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bed Decks Palyer
I was trying hard to understand what's your point, but then I gave up. So, DRS is new Sanctuary Cat. I wish I new it before I bought them...
Look, double IT FTW may mean anything. If you have mana and cards available for IT chain, then DRS does nothing. If, for whatever the reason you need to play PiF combo (e.g. been hit by BSkull), then the fact that DRS exiles card may be of importance. (And in this case you need two ITs unless you wish to rely on PiFed cantrips... which might be exiled on previous turns.) This might become problem when games last longer, because DRSx2 eat your grave, while Hymn+stuff eats your hand and Decays hits onto-the-battlefield sandbagged LEDs and Pierces screw your cantrips/Rituals or you know whatever the gold fish decided to do.
Basically I was opposing Lemnears statement that DRS does nothing against PiF. Even if it was a hyperbole (which is unlikely, go look up his vehemence on this matter), it still isn't true, because PiF is a graveyard engine and DRS hits cards in gy. Pedobear approved.
Amazing, how you prepare to manouver yourself in a position with all those cards active even if I can't come up with a current metagame deck which runs Pierce + Hymn. Reality is somewhere between goldfishing and creating such scenarios.
I have no clue why a simple hyperbole I picked to describe the low impact DRS had in the ANT Matches I played, caused so much hatred.
I seriously doubt anyone would have the Balls insult me that way face to face ;)
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Stop acting like babies, both of you.
1. We're on combo. It's a risky strategy and if the opponent draws a God hand, we just lose. No tuning or mad play skill can prevent that. So don't waste your time trying to figure out how to beat FoW, FoW, Pierce, Hymn, Deathrite, Deathrite, Land, Land or stuff like that.
2. Goldfishing is very useful to get a general idea of what a combo deck is capable of (familiarizing yourself with a list) and helps a lot to tune a mana curve. A small kid from Nijmegen had only a couple of hours goldfishing with TES as combo experience, but went on to reach the finals of the Dutch Nationals last fall. Goldfish that! But proper play testing and tournament practice of course help more to figure out the finesse of the deck.
3. Deathrite Shaman is a nuisance. If you are on the EtW plan, you might lose to it. If you cantrip forever, you might lose to it. But most of the time you will be able to play around it just fine. Stuff like Thalia or an active Liliana are much more dangerous.
4. Did I really read about the idea of adding Deathrite to ANT itself? That's just rediculous. It makes your deck slower and less consistent in going off. Also it makes opposing creature removal relevant. Why on earth would you want that?
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Whoa looks like this is ringside! At least you guys sparked some non BW discussion.
While I have been beaten by DRS before I must say it doesn't put near the pressure that t1 mom brings.
On additional tutors I've been dedicating more attention to LDV lately and I agree with an earlier comment that tops plus vault is very good. Vault takes some preparation but now that I'm used to the thought processes it's damn powerful. Taking this further vault and CoV are great together, which leads me to DRS and even other single hate pieces. I believe LDV + top + CoV main is what we want to be doing right now in UBr storm. It's so natural for the deck, preserves the more resilient manabase and facilitates wins without the graveyard. EtW vs ad naus depends but both should be in our 75.
I've never tried personal tutor but I can see it being useful in light of recent performances by LDV. Only issue is if it's better than another LDV since that is cast EoT so actually costs less than PT. That and it can't tutor CoV for my list. Plus is it can more easily allow you to go off the same turn and provides a shuffle effect. I would be interested in experiences since 2 LDV in hand is far worse than 2 IT and I'd wager worse than LDV +PT (reason for the split?).
Telemin performance I just don't get would you mind elaborating? Are you trying to deck yourself for PiF or deck them? What's the appeal over ad nauseam which is on color?
Posting from my phone..
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Deathrite shaman by itself is not a big problem is the life total is high. Basically it is just pressuring the pif line of play, so you may have to opt for the ad nauseum. I would not call it a very strong threat, but it is something. Its probably less good against storm than it is against reanimator.
I think TES is a very good deck, but I was wondering if there are meta games where ANT is better than TES and vice versa?
That question got me thinking of possibilities, so I looked at some tournament reports. Burning wish and cabal therapy numbers have increased to put it plainly and without making a distinction of two different decks. Death and Taxes has increased its top 8 finishes and Maverick is still putting up strong numbers, so this is probably why cabal therapy and burning wish have seen more top 16 finishes. I think it would be hard to use less than four duress in a metagame so full of blue. I also think since tokens have not been on the seen for a while the engineered explosives and pernicious deeds have not been played as much making empty the warrens better.
Four maindeck thalias is still much less than ten main deck counter spells, so it would be hard for me to cut duress in favor of playing more cabal therapies in the main. I use one in the s/b. They are still going to bring in mindbreak trap, so that will possibly cause you to dig for more discard after a cabal therapy. The numbers are hard justify keeping the duresses in. I think I normally keep in two. I also can't really imagine trying to play without a massacre.
Silence can solve some problems, but you are left with much less information. I would think the show and tell matchup would be difficult. I have played tes and versions of ant with burning wishes, but it has been many years.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Amazing, how you prepare to manouver yourself in a position with all those cards active even if I can't come up with a current metagame deck which runs Pierce + Hymn. Reality is somewhere between goldfishing and creating such scenarios.
I have no clue why a simple hyperbole I picked to describe the low impact DRS had in the ANT Matches I played, caused so much hatred.
Oh, I didn't know that all these spells must be in a same deck! Also, you started to be anal about DRS, so where's the trouble.
There's no hatred, dude.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I seriously doubt anyone would have the Balls insult me that way face to face ;)
Yes, I think that none of you would dare to insult me face to face. In fact I think you'd start to shit concrete the moment I'd enter the same room. At least it's the usual reaction.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tombstalker
Telemin performance I just don't get would you mind elaborating? Are you trying to deck yourself for PiF or deck them? What's the appeal over ad nauseam which is on color?
I want to wish for it in the Storm mirror and against High Tide. It seems sort of marginal but I play in area with a good amount of combo so I was thinking of trying it out the next tournament I go to.
It definitely sucks that the opponent gets to see it coming and has a whole turn to react though...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bed Decks Palyer
I played some :b::b::b: sorcery that reads "remove up to three cards from their library" and it had massive kicker and then it took out seven or so. I'm not sure if this card is better, but basically I'm not really thrilled of both of them.
This is interesting too... But it doesn't instagib people the way Telemin Performance does. That might just be win more though, Sacrament is easier to cast and basically wins the Storm mirror if you take their MD Tendrils and any Burning Wishes or Empties.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Will_L
I want to wish for it in the Storm mirror and against High Tide. It seems sort of marginal but I play in area with a good amount of combo so I was thinking of trying it out the next tournament I go to.
It definitely sucks that the opponent gets to see it coming and has a whole turn to react though...
This is interesting too... But it doesn't instagib people the way Telemin Performance does. That might just be win more though, Sacrament is easier to cast and basically wins the Storm mirror if you take their MD Tendrils and any Burning Wishes or Empties.
Sadly it does nothing after their EtW. Also, if they play 3-4 BW + ToA/EtW, you pretty much do nothing, unless you play it with kicker.
It was a funny card, but definitely not worthy a sb slot.
Oh, I also tried some similar card, it is also a BBB or 1BB card and it removes a card from their library and you may play it. Much more funny than really useful, but the one time I played opponents AdN or PiF or whatever, it was juicy.
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Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)
I see, it might be a fun way to steal a few games as a wish target so I'd be interested in hearing how it went just for laughs. The biggest issue is giving them a turn since it does nothing to the board state or their hand so they could combo off and kill you in response to your latent kill.
