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I was like that for some time, hence why I built my abomination. (Which actually earned me a T8 at my first event. Turns out RUG is weak to Ghost Quarters, my losses coming to Maverick.) I'm sure he'll come around. I started playing Modern first, so that might be a way to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
Also fuck Pongify, I want to make Frog Lizards.
Couldn't the same thing be said to you about dredge and Shops in vintage. I have played Vintage about the same amount of time as you in Ohio, otherwise known as SHops central, and I don't have any issue beating the decks you mention, by playing cards that interact with them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I'm not a fortune-teller, I have no clue why it's the case, do you always win the Dice? Do you play Annul/Steel Sabotage.dec feat Nature's Claim? Are there no other Gush/storm/BUG decks in your meta you have to habe in mind building a deck which can completely focus on Shop? I don't know...Quote:
Originally Posted by merfolkotpt
What I know is, that Dredge and especially Shops overperform worldwide with tactical superior and highly complex interactions like "Workshop, Mox, Chalice @ 0, Lodestone, go" or Turn 1 Thorn, Turn 2 Forgemaster ... just in case we need to continue the Storm-discussion ;D
Please tell me, how you meaningful interact with Shop on the draw without FoW? Land, Mox (hopefully no Chalice), Lightning Bolt the Lodestone? If it's sooooo easy to build a balanced deck between the blue mirror, Shop- & Dredge-matchups, when why do I see multiple Shops and Dredge in every T8? It's not that all the Flusterstorms, Mental Missteps and mana Drains have any impact.
Because those are cheaper than Blue decks?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Good riddance, we don't want these types of players in the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Lemnear,
Post your most recent list and I can tell you why you aren't beating those decks. My guess is you have too much stuff for the blue mirror and not enough stuff for these MUs.
I don't care anymore as other former Vintage World Champs do, as WotC showed for years that they don't give a fuck about the Format either. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by merfolkotpt
My latest list was Grixis colored with Bobs, Snapcaster and Lightning Bolts to overcome other players Jaces, Bobs and Lodestone Golems
This is not the Vintage-deckbuiling threat however ;)
SO which card do you think will get unbanned next?
How about Flash! I think that is a swell card to unban! /troll
They should unban Earthcraft. Might be amusing to see Elves get out of control, though I bet it could be used in some way (which is always fun).
I think Mind Twist is the most likely card to be unbanned.
Yeah, it does feel like they missed an opportunity for an unban. The meta's really open right now, so it feels like a good time to introduce more cards. Hopefully, they were thinking about unbanning Earthcraft, but with the recent legend rule change they wanted to make sure the buff to Gaea's Cradle plus an unban of Earthcraft wouldn't be too much so they're just waiting until next time to unban something.
I don't think Flash is likely to see any kind of unbanning. If anything will keep new players from buying expensive Legacy cards, it's the threat of a Turn 0 loss, no matter how fragile it may be.
I still think that, if something was to be unbanned, it would be along the lines of Black Vise, but I don't personally think that would be a very nice choice, as it would hate decks like Miracles that like to keep well-stocked hands, and those are decks that I feel add nice variety to the format.
Yeah Mind Twist looks pretty safe as well. You need lots of mana, which means you need to ramp to make it decent (which could be spent on better things, like winning) or you cast it later on (and discard is usually not good late game).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
My mind is blown.
Four mono-colored decks that are DTB.
Five decks without Brainstorm.
When was the last time this happened?
The meta is VERY healthy. Unban Mind Twist so we can get a mono-colored black deck as a DTB and then talk more shit about how Legacy is the best format and Modern is a shit format? :wink:
Mind Twist is obviously very safe, and it would be cool to have back. The card I think they could 100% unban (but likely won't) is Worldgorger Dragon, and that makes me a sad pandna. "It dies to everything" is still valid, and "everything" now includes one of the most played 1-drops in recent memory.
Dragon dies to most removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by LennonMarx
the Animate Dead dies to Abrupt Decay and can't be countered.
Dragon can be exiled from DRS while in the yard.
Still, some people could draw the game and troll everyone.
Both Goblins and Elves are not Mono coloured. They just have a dominant colour.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Close enough. Don't ruin my dream of a format where 5 of the DTB are mono-colored!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Being a practically mono-colored deck, Elves still pretty much scoops to a turn1 Blood Moon on the play.. ;-)
Yeah I find this strangely humorous. Elves, a mostly mono-colored deck and a deck that has the ability to generate great deals of mana, scoops to Blood moon on the play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
I feel the same way when a Combo deck scoops to non-blue midrange deck.
I can not stop laughing right now. So true its sad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
If you're using the dragon to draw, you're doing it wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
I probably wouldn't use him at all TBH.Quote:
Originally Posted by bjholmes3
You can't draw with Dragon anymore afaik. You have to break that infinite loop with Dragon at some point 'cause Animate Dead doesn't target afaik and that would result in you being forced to find another or no target to not get DQ'd for stalling? Is this correct?
Animate Dead is an aura, so even though its worded strangely, it still targets. As for unbanning WGD, it should definitely stay banned imo. The combo itself is probably not strong enough that it'd make any impact. As already mentioned, there's more than enough answers to it, and you're turning the 2-card combo reanimator uses into a 3-card combo, so you're better off not using it. Still, when you walk into your LGS with WGD, you're the biggest asshole in the room. I mean, does anyone seriously want to play against this deck?
I felt the same way about Stasis decks back in the day.Quote:
Originally Posted by jamis
I assume you are on board with banning High Tide, then?Quote:
Originally Posted by jamis
Time is a concern with WGD since you'll be playing more games on average than other matches, but not a huge concern since the combo itself can be made into a sequence of short-cuts quite easily, so only slower control decks should be going to time against it usually, and those are more used to going to time anyway. My main complaint really is just the fact that the deck can easily draw a game. I have no problem with Wizards' saying that type of strategy shouldn't be allowed.Quote:
Originally Posted by LennonMarx
My understanding is that if there's another target for Animate Dead, then you can't draw with Dragon because you're forced to end the loop by choosing something else (you can still get all the mana you want first though). However, if there isn't, then it's an inescapable infinite loop and a draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
In legacy, I'm not even sure how easy the draw condition is, as it requires no other creatures in either yard. And besides, if this deck goes to time it just goes to time, it doesn't take an extra 15-20 (worst case) minutes to go off on top of the regulation 50. Playing the deck in vintage years ago, I think the "worst" match I ever had in regards to total games played was like 2-1-2, and that didn't even go to time. With all the hate that exists now, I just don't see how this is remotely unsafe to unban.Quote:
Originally Posted by jamis
Edit: Didn't intend for the triple negative in the last sentence there. My point was I think the card is safe, in regards to both time concerns and power level concerns.
The draw condition is pretty easy considering if the Dragon deck has a non-dragon creature in the yard it's going to be a wincon and the only way they have of putting creatures in your yard is countering them or Thoughtsieze.Quote:
Originally Posted by LennonMarx
I agree Dragon isn't the power level it once was but being able to draw a game so easily is too much IMO. I mean if you are going to die next turn you shouldn't be able to be like "Oh here's half my combo game 4."
I agree with everything you're saying. An unban would be very low impact on the meta. However, leaving the card banned sets a precedent. It says that if a deck emerges that exploits the rules about infinite loops, it will not be allowed. The rule about infinite loops is important, because weird situations come up during normal play, but a deck with a focus on creating that game state -- even if not the main focus -- is a different story, and I hope Wizards continues to discourage those kinds of decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by LennonMarx
From my point of view the meta seems okay right now. Everything is able to perform well and nothing is overpowered. If you consider boring decks banworthy Show and Tell might be an option, but I doubt it is needed. We haven't had any real impact on legacy with Theros and the metagame appeals to be shifting back and forth anyway. Deathblade gone, UWR Delver performing well... I think those are good indications for WotC to leave things as they are.
As for the unbannings, which I would like to see and believe are safe to do:
- Earthcraft. It does not look like this would fit in any existing Tier1 Deck. The Combo with Squirrel Nest is also quite easily stoppable. There are quite a few hatecards I expect to be popular in a few months anyhow. Engineered Plague is good against Goblins, Elves and Merfolk to some extend. Just to name one possible sideboard card. I'm sure this topic has been revealed well enough throughout the thread and I don't have to cover it all again. Just think about what your Decks can do to stop this combo and I am quite sure you'll find enough options if you adress the matter properly.
- Frantic Search. Aside from Spiraltide this card has no real application in any of the decks I can think of. It is to slow for Reanimator, to clunky for tempo lists and no other deck does need to untap lands. It may well be of no impact at all as Spiraltide lists seem to have rare space for any card that is not absurdly powerful.
- Mind Twist. Often said, and I agree. This card just works in a control mirror. With all the taxing spells in Legacy it will harly have any effect on tempo lists, midrange will most certainly have the boardpressure you'll be needing to deal with insted of casting a Mind Twist x>=4 and fast combo will propably laugh about it, as it doesn counter their pieces.
I agree with most of you who are saying Worldgorger Dragon is safe to unban with regards to its power level. I actually do not get the point some of you made with the infinite loops being not what Magic was invented for. Well we have a lot of infinite loops legal in Legacy right now. They are simply unplayable. This beautiful constructed format has an awesome card pool and that is the main reason I play Legacy. Why can't I play what I like and be a Johnny if I want to?
Probably soon new post about TNN (True-Name Nemesis from Commander Arsenal 2013) will appears here ;). Anyway it deserve it not only from power lvl but worst design card ever - totally non-interactive which indicate unfun - WotC didn't you learn anything from printing Omniscience and Enter the Infinity ?
It's never too soon to complain about a card no one has ever played, this is the Source.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
Frantic Search is absurdly powerful in Tide. So powerful that one could rather easily drop Time Spiral from the list (maybe not the right thing to do but definitly possible).Quote:
Originally Posted by GexxX
Nevertheless I doubt that Frantic Search would push the deck into Tier 1 category. If Frantic Search is a problem then not in Tide.
I agree on everything else.
@Fatal: Can we please stop whining about the "non interactiveness"? I don't see everybody crying about the uncounterable and therefor non interactive Abrupt Decay.
Decay is an answer, not a threat. Nemesis is a threat.
As Zombie so eloquently 'Nathed before me, TNN is such a bomb, whether it's on an empty board or against most combo - I can easily see a Bant list that Voltrons the hell out of TNN and eats faces. Or you can go UR and play weird cards like Madcap Skills along with Counterburn types.Quote:
Originally Posted by Derklord
And so it begins
You can't be quoting that right. Those are the two main situations where it is outclassed by other cards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkenslight
True-Name is not a combo killer. Someone playing Combo can just take the 3 a turn and win in a single of their own turns. Save for storm, most combo decks can care less if they are on 3 or less life on their combo turn.
Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.