That is not true. Miracles MD has a lot of dead cards against combos; StP and Entreat are most of time irrelevant against combos like Storm, Sneak and Show game 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush80
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That is not true. Miracles MD has a lot of dead cards against combos; StP and Entreat are most of time irrelevant against combos like Storm, Sneak and Show game 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush80
btw what is your storm plan? I add 1 Canonist and 1 E Tutor and... that's pretty much all :eek:
I'm less curious about the Shardless/Miracles matchup, which I feel is favorable for Shardless but not particularly lopsided. I'm more curious about the matchup against BUG Control/Planeswalkers which seems to be extremely lopsided without any special SB tech from either side. Any BUG deck has excellent (though not Blood Moon-level) sideboard options for the match, so even things like Rest in Peace don't move the needle a ton in my experience. More broadly, it seems like Miracles has a relatively unfavorable matchup against most other decks (12post, slower BUG variants as mentioned above, Tezzeret, etc.) set up to play the long game with the possible exception of Jund.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
oh, come on, are u kidding me? Yes, there're unfavorable match-ups, 12 post should not be described as unfavorable, it's un-winnable, like 95% un-winnable. There're huge differences.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
And then, there're huge differences between Shardless BUG and BUG Delver. Please just read articles Ein has written about those MU. If you understand his articles, you would realize that BUG Delver is definitely winnable. Yes, Ein did mention that Shardless BUG's a problem, but if you follow his article, you can put yourself in a decent position at the least.
There's no individual card in Miracles that is ban worthy aside from Brainstorm and they will never ban Brainstorm. If they banned Brainstorm then they'd also ban Deathrite Shaman and probably Sensei's Divining Top and the format would be unrecognizable in the aftermath. People would be extremely pissed and it would be bad for WotC in a big way.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
What they'll do if they decide Jace is a problem is create some form of uncounterable instant way to get rid of him that also has enough applicability to other targets that people will actually sideboard it in the appropriate lists.
Have you even read what I wrote? I'm playing the BUG decks in these situations, I'm merely surprised by my win rate and trying to understand if this is a structural weakness of Miracles, or if I've just encountered poor Miracle players. Also, the BUG Delver/Miracles matchup tends to be ~50/50 in my experience, so that's definitely not what I'm referring to.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
BUG Delver is a very skill intensive MU and it depends on the lists of both players which deck is favored. With my list i feel favored against all the BUG decks, except BUG Planseswalkers/Standstill. The latter is not played. And that's a good thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by btm10
---------
12 Post is definetely not a 5 % MU for us. I played against it about 20 times, and i did win about a third against it. It's a very bad MU for us, no one can deny that, but you also can't deny it's the worst deck in Legacy. It has so many bad MU's (Delver decks, Burn, Painter, combo etc.) and so few good MU's, that i always wonder how stupid one must be to play it for anything else besides fun.
You can win against it with assembling Countertop lock and then kill them with Jace/Entreat. You just have to stop them from getting the Eye of Urgin or an Emrakul. Of course they can draw both things naturally and then it's game over. There are also some games, we're they are really slow with assembling Mana and you have f.ex something like Turn 2 Snapcaster into Turn 3 Vendilion Clique with some Countermagic protection, so you beat them down while countering anything that looks nasty. In addition to that you can also nutdraw them which happened twice for me. It was Turn 2 Countertop lock, Turn 3 Clique, Turn 4 Jace, Turn 5 Entreat and FoW backup in my hand. So it's definetely winnable, besides nutdrawing them, because it's just a bad and inconsistent deck (when facing Disruption. when you goldfish it, i think it's consistent).
@adryan what do you float on top of library? terminus for Primevial titan? what else?
Im not too familar with this matchup.
I float 1 on top, because it counters Expedition Map, Crop Rotation, SDT, Brainstorm etc. You really need to stop them from getting Eye, Emrakul or having access of any kind of library manipulation. Therefore forcing their SDT is always correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by decan
Boarding plan depends on the list. F.ex if they have Oracle i leave in some removal. If they only have Primeval Titan, i board all the creature removal out, so i don't have Terminus postboard. A resolved Titan trigger is game over, unless you play Blood Moon afterwards and only playing it to have a 6cc spell for counterbalance seems very bad.
Blood Moon is the best SB card against them. If you resolve it, and they don't play Wipe Away/Krosan Grip, it's almost impossible for them to get rid of it.
Oh yeah~ Miracles finally won a SCG Open, when was the last one? The one in Denver?
Who's Remelt on the source? I ran something much more similar to his. His list here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=70894
That would be me. :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
I have actually been lurking this thread for quite some time. I am nowhere near a master at playing this deck and I am grateful that this thread helped me decide on specific cards in my list and how to play certain m/u's.
If anyone has questions id be happy to answer them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tempothresh
I am currently pondering if i should run rest in peace or relic of progenitus.
I am running 3 snapcaster mages, and RIP has very poor synergy with the mages.
Why did you opt for RIP? :)
Another question: Do you ever feel like you are drawing too many counterspells? you have 2 counterspell, 2 pierces, 4 force of will and 3 counterbalance.
relic doesnt work with nullrod which could be an issue and is the reason i dont run it.
My thinking behind it is in the M/U's where you need graveyard removal and they are not playing Abrupt decay's, (RUG, Dredge, lands etc) Rest in Peace is just a complete hoser. Relic is imo still a fantastic card but it doesn't shut out certain m/u's quite like RIP does. I've had rug players play around the relic where I was forced to sac it. And when I did they just eventually pulled ahead. I tend to board snapcasters out when I bring in RIP unless I want him there just as a ambush viper vs M/U's where putting pressure on your opponent is important. For instance vs Dredge ill keep him in to help remove bridges by flashing in during combat and blocking.Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus-online
I have been up in the air about what counterspells I really prefer in the list. Honestly spell pierce is my least favorite and I used to play a one of spell snare. Until lately I decided I wanted to be more proactive in the early game against decks like BUG and combo. Vs Abrupt decay decks you can't rely on counterbalance so having a answer to their early hymm's and lili's is important to me.
I've been on this list for about 6 months communicating with Joe Bass (were both from Houston, other local Miracles player) on different card choices. I've copied Joe Lossett's mana base as I feel safe playing the mountain and I really dislike getting my red wasted. The others playing 21-22 lands and no basic mountains are much braver than I am. I don't think it's wrong or right but more of a comfort issue as I like to play safer against wasteland.
Is Joe Bass still running SFM in his list? If not, is there any reason why?Quote:
Originally Posted by tempothresh
Hi all, I just wanted opinions on the following board guides. Please remember these are just guides to help with tournament anxiety, nothing is set in stone. I am trying to get ready for a local SCG. I have gotten a lot of these ideas from various players on the source. I want to give a special thanks to Einherjer for making the 4 ponder build. I am playing the following:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Terminus
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
1 Council's Judgement
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Force of Will
4 Sensei's Divining Top
Sideboard:
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Rest in Peace
2 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Disenchant
1 Council's Judgement
2 Engineered Explosives
vs. Miracles
- 4 Swords to Plowshares, -4 Terminus, - 1 Force of Will, - 1 Entreat the Angels
+ 1 Disenchant, + 1 Council's Judgement, + 2 Red Elemental Blast, + 1 Pyroblast, +2 Vendilion Clique, + 2 Engineered Explosives, + 1 Keranos, God of Storms
vs. RUG Delver
- 4 Force of Will, - 2 Counterspell, -2 Entreat the Angels, - 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+ 2 Rest in Peace, + 2 Flusterstorm, + 2 Engineered Explosives, + 2 Vendilion Clique, +1 Council's Judgement
vs. BUG Delver
- 4 Force of Will, - 4 Counterbalance, -1 Ponder
+ 2 Engineered Explosives, + 2 Flusterstorm, + 2 Vendilion Clique, + 1 Disenchant, + 1 Council's Judgement, + 1 Keranos, God of Storms
vs. UWR Delver
- 4 Force fo Will, - 1 Counterspell, - 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+ 2 Engineered Explosives, +1 Disenchant, + 2 Vendilion Clique, + 1 Council's Judgement
vs. UR Delver
- 4 Force of Will, - 1 Ponder
+ 2 Red Elemental Blast, + 1 Red Blast, + 2 Flusterstorm
vs. Jund
- 4 Force of Will, -1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+ 2 Rest in Peace, + 1 Keranos, God of Storms, + 1 Counicl's Judgement, + 2 Engineered Explosives
vs. Shardless BUG
- 4 Counterbalance, - 4 Force of Will, - 2 Ponder
+ 2 Vendilion Clique, + 1 Keranos, God of Storms, + 2 Red Elemental Blast, + 1 Pyroblast, + 1 Disenchant, + 1 Council's Judgement, + 2 Engineered Explosives
vs. Junk/Maverick
- 4 Force of Will, - 2 Ponder, - 1 Counterbalance, - 2 other slots
+ 2 Engineered Explosives, 1 Izzet Staticaster, + 1 Keranos, God of Storms, + 2 Vendilion Clique, + 1 Council's Judgement, + 2 Rest in Peace
vs. Burn
- 4 Terminus, + 2 Engineered Explosives, + 2 Flusterstorm
vs. ANT storm
- 4 Terminus, - 2 Entreat the Angels, - 4 Swords to Plowshares, - 1 Council's Judgement
+ 1 Pyroblast, + 2 Red Elemental Blast, + 2 Rest in Peace, + 2 Vendilion Clique, + 2 Flusterstorm, + 2 Engineered Explosives
vs. TES storm
- 4 Swords to Plowshares, - 2 Entreat the Angels, - 4 Terminus, -1 Council's Judgement
+ 2 Engineered Explosives, + 2 Vendilion Clique, + 1 Pyroblast, + 2 Red Elemental Blast, + 2 Flusterstorm, + 1 Izzet Staticaster, + 1 Rest in Peace
vs. Belcher
- 4 Swords to Plowshares, - 2 Entreat the Angels, - 1 Terminus, - 1 Council's Judgement
+ 2 Engineered Explosives, + 2 Vendilion Clique, + 2 Flusterstorm, + 1 Izzet Staticaster, + 1 Disenchant
vs. Omni-Tell
- 4 Swords to Plowshares, - 4 Terminus, - 1 Ponder
+ 2 Red Elemental Blast, + 2 Vendilion Clique, + 1 Pyroblast, + 2 Flusterstorm, + 1 Disenchant, + 1 Counicl's Judgement
vs. Sneak and Show
- 4 Swords to Plowshares, - 4 Terminus, - 1 Ponder
+ 2 Red Elemental Blast, + 2 Vendilion Clique, + 1 Pyroblast, + 2 Flusterstorm, + 1 Disenchant, + 1 Counicl's Judgement
vs. Reanimator
- 4 Swords to Plowshares, - 2 Entreat, - 2 Ponder. - 1 Council's Judgement
+ 2 Rest in Peace, + 2 Flusterstorm, + 2 Red Elemental Blast, + 1 Pyroblast, + 2 Vendilion Clique
vs. LED Dredge
- 4 Counterbalnce, - 2 Counterspell, - 3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+ 2 Rest in Peace, + 2 Engineered Explosives, + 2 Flusterstorm, +2 Red Elemental Blast, + 1 Pyroblast
vs. Manaless Dredge
- 4 Counterbalance, - 2 Counterspell
+ 2 Rest in Peace, + 2 Engineered Explosives, + 2 Flusterstorm
vs. Death Blade
- 4 Force of Will, - 4 Counterbalance, - 2 Ponder
+ 2 Engineered Explosives, +2 Red Elemental Blast, + 1 Pyroblast, + 2 Vendilion Clique, + 1 Disencahnt, + 1 Council's Judgement, + 1 1 Keranos, God of Storms
vs. Esper Stonebalde
- 4 Force of Will, - 4 Swords to Plowshares, - 1 Ponder
+ 2 Red Elemental Blast, 1 Pyroblast, +1 Disenchant, + 1 Izzet Staticaster, + 2 Vendilion Clique, +1 Council's Judgement,
+1 Keranos, God of Storms
vs. UW Stoneblade
- 4 Force, -2 Ponder
+ 2 Red Elemental Blast, + 1 Pyroblast, + 1 Disenchant, + 1 Council's Judgement, +1 Keranos, God of Storms
vs. Elves
- 1 Council's Judgement, - 1 Entreat the Angels, - 1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+ 1 Izzet Staticaster, + 2 Engineered Explosives
vs. Merfolk
- 4 Counterbalance, - 4 Force of Will
+ 2 Red Elemental Blast, +2 Engineered Explosives, + 1 Pyroblast, + 1 Disenchant, + 1 Council's Judgement, +1 Keranos, God of Storms
vs. Goblins
- 4 Counterbalance, - 2 Counterspell,
+ 1 Izzet Staticaster, + 2 Engineered Explosives, + 1 Disenchant, + 1 Council's Judgement, + 1 Keranos, God of Storms
vs. Merfolk
- 4 Counterbalance, - 2 Counterspell, - 2 Ponder
+ 2 Red Elemental Blast, + 1 Pyroblast, + 2 Engineered Explosives, + 1 Disenchant, + 1 Council's Judgement, + 1 Keranos, God of Storms
vs. Death and Taxes
- 4 Counterbalance, - 2 Ponder
+ 2 Engineered Explosives, + 1 Disenchant, + 1 Council's Judgement, + 1 Keranos, God of Storms, + 1 Izzet Staticaster
He is indeed still playing SFM but not always. He wavers back and forth between lists depending on the event. He recently was playing Joe Lossett's list but decided to go back to SFM for this open. Why he still plays it I am not quite sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyC27
might you help me to understand the use of Izzet Staticaster?
Thank you
Has utility against all the decks with large numbers of x/1s. For example, Staticaster shines against Death and Taxes and its creature package of Thalia, Mother of Runes, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
Source lurker here.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnziD
Or you can just cast Staticaster and salt over Storm decks casting Empty the Warrens :laugh:
Situational play, though. A mere suggestion.
Let me first address the con of Staticaster: it's vulnerable to blasts, which goblins and painter would have for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnziD
the pros: very, very versatile, most miracle opponents will SB-out creature removals, this is how Staticaster could next-level them.
RUG delver -> sb out bolts -> Staticaster gets their delver
WUR delver/D&T -> sb out StP -> Staticaster gets their delver and dudes
Elves -> most elves except drs, but likely to get abrupt decayed
TES and Belcher -> goblin token
Goblin -> lackey, instigator...etc, but very likely to get blasted
Merfolk -> cursecatcher, adept...etc.
Bonus: gets Dark Confidant, baleful strix.
Sulfur Elemental is much much narrower.
Cut staticaster and play Sulfur Elemental... trust me... you are not gonna regret this switch... it can pressure combo decks and shines in the mirror too also it totally destroys D&T and maverick x/1s without giving the opponent a moment to respondQuote:
Originally Posted by AnziD
A card that dies to Snapcaster Mage doesn't shine in the mirror.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gros
I run staticaster and would not bring it in against any delver decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
I only bring it against Storm, Belcher, Maverick/deadguy, Elves, D&T, goblins, painter, and merfolk (although its really bad in the latter).
It is mostly in there for Death and taxes, but also still amazing against elves and storm. Against storm it doesnt hit just goblins, but probably more importantly it hits xantid swarm or bob while being pitchable to FoW and an instant. Sulfer elemental is far too narrow.
Cool. I'd be curious to see his list--I pilot an SFM version, too. Does Joe B. lurk these forums? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by tempothresh
What is SFM? stone forge mystic ?Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyC27
I'm sorry why are we bringing Staticaster in against Storm? We board out Terminus. Staticaster is actively worse. Staticaster is worse than Sulfur Elemental, but also works against Elves, Goblins, Pyromancer-based Delver decks (usually good against Pyroman and they often run Lavamancer. It can also just jump in front of Goblin Guide if they're playing that kind of thing).
SFM is Stoneforge Mystic. I don't get why people run this. I like it in the E-Tutor builds, as it's a 5-drop you can pull with Enlightened tutor, and Stoneforge with Jace/Brainstorm is a raw CA engine, but that requires 3 Stoneforges to be reliable, optimally 4, and that's kind of awkward with this deck. Might work.
staticaster vs ANTQuote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
Sure, it would be great to have caster to shutdown Xantid or Dark Confidant. However, I feel there's inherent misleading danger in doing so. First, caster is a bit slow against turn 1 Xantid, you much rather StP. Let's say you do get to 3 Mana and your opponent has DC in play, you EoT-caster, it's very possible for ANT to respond by ritual-ad nauseam. Of course, ANT usually SB-in Abrupt Decay in this MU.
Oh, how about U/R Delver? Young Pyro build? Despite the possibility of being blasted, caster can shut down elemental tokens and YP, kill grim lavamancer and delver.
Overall, it should be the other way around, staticaster is just way too versatile, you wouldn't want to go back to Sulfur elemental once you run it.
I play SFM because it's a cheap efficient threat. I board into Sword of Feast and Famine against combo decks. Between that and batterskull, it seems to work well. I'm always a little antsy to tap out with this deck, and SFM's cost allows me to leave mana up for responses.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
In a tournament setting, the clock is an issue. This alone would suggest that a powerful early threat could be good.
RE: Staticaster Vs Storm, I thought Xantid Swarm was a 0/2. It may not actually be terrible in that case. Still not sure I like it.
I still hate Stoneforge. Play faster and Entreat for more Angels at a time. I'd much rather just Entreat for X=2 early rather than ever play Stoneforge in the deck again. It was horrid and clunky.
That's fine -- it's just a personal preference with the deck. I'm not sure that Stoneforge allows you to close out a game any sooner than Entreat normally would, it just allows you to deploy a threat sooner in certain match ups. I still run Entreat.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
Shardless BUG is a good matchup without narrow sideboard considerations. Try a different approach.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
With a lot of practice, and being mindful of the clock from the first second of the match, you can ensure that you never go to time; entreat is a hell of a card.Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus-online
I am strongly considering a third entreat because i go to time almost every round :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
Entreat isn't the problem. Most likely, the mechanics of your play is just too slow. For example, you're probably spending more seconds topping than is necessary. Time yourself goldfishing, and try to improve. Ask someone who you know that plays quickly if there's anything they notice you're doing slowly. In my experience, it's very rare for slow players to actually need the time they're using--most of it is wasted.Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus-online
There is the issue that has been touched on, too. Some people are just too scared to close the game out. You've not hit all the LD's you want, and you're floating an Entreat. You need to identify the correct opportunity to go for it. I often found myself just digging for more and more Lands, and would take an extra ten minutes to Entreat because I needed an extra four or five turns to have completely shut the door, when the Entreat would've just killed them in two turns.
I'd agree with Malakai: you're probably topping too long or simply not used to the myriad instant speed shenanigans you have.Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus-online
I've been running Junk lists of various sorts with Tops and it took a long to get used to seeing all of the options laid out, when I should use top-draw to pull an answer, or fighting to the last even when the game is already over.
Just getting used to your options and playing quickly can alleviate this. I will say however, that on occasion I get stuck searching for threats when the game is impossibly in my favor; and the games will drag long because I see nothing but discard/Lilys, etc..
To point out, I realize I'm talking different lists; but the point is that I used to go to time a lot; now I don't. Having a mildly less durdly deck (your third entreat) helps, but simply playing faster after Losing a G1 and having to Draw the match (or lose the match) when it's unnecessary is lame.
Oh i definitely agree that i am probably taking too much time with the top, but that will be reduced with more practice i assume. However, more entreats should allow for quicker games thus decreasing the amount of time each round takes.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
Also, i have sometimes been unable to close games where i have a huge lead, and entreat helps here too. Oh and a last note: All unfavorable match ups seems to depend on entreating :)
I suggest you put EtA #3 in your SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus-online
Why do some people play pyroclasm in the sideboard? Is it better than terminus in any MU or is it just a fifth Terminus?