[Primer] Elves!

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Originally Posted by Echelon

You forget the part where you have to keep open N mana where N is the number of guys you want to save, turn after turn after turn.

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I don't know about you, but normally when I play Miracles I don't flood the board with guys. I go with Julian's strategy of keeping 3-4 power on the board (or equivalent with DRS) and replacements for those guys in my hand. For some reason, this tends to result in open mana, which I suspect might be fed into Evolutionary Leap. You only need 2 guys for the Vengevine plan, so this plays into the current way I play the match up.

Of course, I could be wrong. I haven't tried emptying my hand into the first Terminus in a while. Does that tend to work out for you?

Honestly, the big problem with this plan is not the open mana, in my mind. It's presuming that you can land the Evolutionary Leap in the first place and that doing so doesn't give them too much time to set up and lock you/find Terminus.

And after that you also have to be able to resolve the creatures you draw.

I don't think it does enough and it needs too many resources to do it. Besides, when slowrolling you probably already have some creatures ready to be dropped in your hand anyways.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

And after that you also have to be able to resolve the creatures you draw.

I don't think it does enough and it needs too many resources to do it. Besides, when slowrolling you probably already have some creatures ready to be dropped in your hand anyways.

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I don't want to be snide, but I can't help but think you aren't reading my posts. If you have a Vengevine, which is the only way this would work against something like Miracles, then it doesn't matter whether you successfully the creatures or not. As soon as they hit the stack, they are "cast", regardless of CB. Thus, the advantage of this set up is that A) it gets you dudes and B) you can get around Terminus and other removal by responding to any of it by saccing your Vengevine (which gets you dudes). You seem way to enamored to the way we're currently playing the deck to realize that this would be a shift in fundamental strategy, not just a change in what cards we're playing.

Again, your critiques are not really hitting the actual problem. The actual problem is not so much with Evolutionary Leap once its in play with some dudes. The problem is A) whether we can expect it to ever hit play in the first place B) whether the 4 Evolutionary Leap and 3-4 Vengevine we need in the side in this scenario screws up other match-ups

I would argue that with the possible exception of Miracles match-ups, this strategy *strictly* inferior to the NO plan. That being said, these sorts of thought exercises are important, because it helps open our eyes to new tech and strategic possibilities. This way, we're ready to pounce when something new comes along.

True. But not with Vengevines (without a way to quickly pitch them to the yard). Hence my glossing over it. Casting 4 CMC creatures with the purpose of sacrificing/recurring them later and keeping mana open in the meantime..? Really..? Come on.

This plan is also strickly inferior and more slot-demanding than the 4-Sage-Build against miracles

Just to stay at the topic: Carsten Kötter was playing OmniTell at the GP Mainevent and lost to S&T into Omniscience/Reclamation Sage, just saying lol

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Originally Posted by Echelon

True. But not with Vengevines (without a way to quickly pitch them to the yard). Hence my glossing over it. Casting 4 CMC creatures with the purpose of sacrificing/recurring them later and keeping mana open in the meantime..? Really..? Come on.

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Yes, really. Not that hard before the first Terminus, honestly. You could be right that we wouldn't have enough time to set up... which I actually pointed out several times in my own posts. I'm not saying the plan is the be all, end all. I'm just saying its a worthwhile thought exercise to think about it and why/how it works (or doesn't).

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

This plan is also strickly inferior and more slot-demanding than the 4-Sage-Build against miracles

Just to stay at the topic: Carsten Kötter was playing OmniTell at the GP Mainevent and lost to S&T into Omniscience/Reclamation Sage, just saying lol

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Haven't had a chance to playtest the 4 sage build, so you could be right. I worry that bending over that far backwards kills us elsewhere, but for a GP metagame it could be the right call.

That being said, I would again point out that you should not attempt to be the topic police. Or at least do a better job of it. Discussing adaptations to the core build are indeed "on topic", particularly if they yield insights into what we need. If you don't like this, feel free to ignore the posts/rap about why the rest of us are idiots. I am not *completely* above trolling to bait another excellent rap.

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Originally Posted by IMarques

If you don't like this, feel free to ignore the posts/rap about why the rest of us are idiots. I am not *completely* above trolling to bait another excellent rap.

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I thought he was here just for our entertainment...

@Lemnear: Now rap dammit or we will release the trolls! Daddy wants biscuits to go with his tea!

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Originally Posted by Echelon

I thought he was here just for our entertainment...

@Lemnear: Now rap dammit or we will release the trolls! Daddy wants biscuits to go with his tea!

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Shhhh! Don't tell him! He thinks we value his stunning good lucks and strategic acumen.

Crap, oh, yes. That is what I meant! Lets just hope he doesn't read this.

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Originally Posted by IMarques

Haven't had a chance to playtest the 4 sage build, so you could be right. I worry that bending over that far backwards kills us elsewhere, but for a GP metagame it could be the right call.

That being said, I would again point out that you should not attempt to be the topic police. Or at least do a better job of it. Discussing adaptations to the core build are indeed "on topic", particularly if they yield insights into what we need. If you don't like this, feel free to ignore the posts/rap about why the rest of us are idiots. I am not *completely* above trolling to bait another excellent rap.

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Thanks for calling that light-hearted entertainment for you dear guys "excellent" and maybe even feel amused at times. :)

The topic Police stuff is indeed a habit I picked up as I saw threads like the old Elven one get derailed and try to stop this board going the way of MTGSalvation or MTG-Forum.de where casual and budget talks dominate the topics.

We need to face the fact that this deck has an unfortunate Position in this metagame where it suffers from Combo, Control and even non-blue matchups (Punishing Fire, Tabernacle, etc. every game 1. This is what needs to be adressed and not now we want to kill the few favorable matchups with either NO, Lifedrain-Elf or Vengevine+Leap. I don't see where this deck should suffer from the MB Sages more than from freeing a shitload of slots for Leap and Vengevine

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Thanks for calling that light-hearted entertainment for you dear guys "excellent" and maybe even feel amused at times. :)

The topic Police stuff is indeed a habit I picked up as I saw threads like the old Elven one get derailed and try to stop this board going the way of MTGSalvation or MTG-Forum.de where casual and budget talks dominate the topics.

We need to face the fact that this deck has an unfortunate Position in this metagame where it suffers from Combo, Control and even non-blue matchups (Punishing Fire, Tabernacle, etc. every game 1. This is what needs to be adressed and not now we want to kill the few favorable matchups with either NO, Lifedrain-Elf or Vengevine+Leap. I don't see where this deck should suffer from the MB Sages more than from freeing a shitload of slots for Leap and Vengevine

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4 Sages seems excessive but perhaps a necessary evil...or we could have some NO targets in the main such as Progenitus and Ruric Thar.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

This plan is also strickly inferior and more slot-demanding than the 4-Sage-Build against miracles

Just to stay at the topic: Carsten Kötter was playing OmniTell at the GP Mainevent and lost to S&T into Omniscience/Reclamation Sage, just saying lol

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Have there been any proposed builds with 4 Sages? S8ge.dec?

I looked back at the discussions on previous pages and have only seen the calls for people to test it. Wondering if any Visionaries get cut since the goal of so many Rec Sages is to create some pseudo card advantage by destroying stuffs. I'm wondering if some sort of 3-Sage, 1-Hoof, 1-Ruric main would work well. Or 4-Sage. I dunno.

I plan to be in Dallas in a couple weeks for the GP and will do some Legacy side events if possible - I don't mind trying something different. Just about complete with my deck, only one Cradle left :smile:

Reporting back. I won my first Trial with Elves 5-0, then 3-3'ed out of the main event, then split the finals of the Bazaar of Dual Lands (~200+ players; Big Legacy Side Event on Sunday).

Overall a successful weekend....but not with regards to the GP, which really is the only thing that counts :(

Details to follow some time later this week.

I've been running 1 sage MD, 2 sb.

3 seems like enough.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

And how does switching NO's out for other "combo" cards improve consistency?

Near the top of this page, Zombie outlined a number of problems the Elves! deck currently has. Could you explain how your build improves on that? Or how it's better/faster/more efficient then the "Oops, I topdeck NO & win" you strip from the deck?

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So working off the assumption that a deck whose secondary plan involves resolving a 4cc spell with board position doesn't thrive in a metagame where non-combo decks tend to run two out of mass removal, recurring removal or counters, you're asking me to rationalise why switching to a cheaper sac outlet engine that circumvents mass removal, recurring removal or counters might be preferrable? I won't. I dunno. I have no clue whether it plays out or not in practice. Play whatever cards you like.

I will however point out the initial reaction to Deathrite Shaman. Have a nice day.

@Infinitium - That DRS discussion is funny.

This deck has a history of eventually integrating cards that nobody thought would be any good. I didn't know DRS ranked among those cards, but I can recall Mirror Entity, the second Craterhoof over a Regal Force (!), Ruric Thar, and Wren's Run Packmaster all being cards that were dismissed before they were adopted as viable staples. I'm not saying Evolutionary Leap is going to be one of those next cards, but the standard list is fairly unshakable until somebody starts posting results with a drastically different build. I don't see the harm in discussing or even testing alternate lists since there isn't too much to say about the core build.

We all know what the core does. Why not investigate new ideas?

Toss me a list. I'll try it out at a weekly. Then somebody else try out a similar list at their weekly. Report back and let's see what happens. That certainly has to be more interesting than a back and forth discussion about what should or shouldn't be discussed. Also, punting with untested/bad cards always makes for an entertaining read.

Liking the new life loss elf. Completely uncomfortable with 4x sage, I got 1 main and that's I've been needing for now.

What happens if we up the bayou count, drop a NO and 1 hoof and maybe a glimpse or two for thoughtseizes main? Helps against stoneforge, not the worst against combo, can mitigate counterbalance hands too. I don't think I like the idea myself but there are worse adaptations

Sage does obvious work against Miracles and Blade and even proofed it's power against S&T in Lille and you guys still feel more comfortable with running 3-4 copies of the completely untested Drain-Elf instead? Hell, cut the 4 NO and Hoofs and you have 6 free slots outta nowhere and can run Drain-Elf + a set of Sages

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Sage does obvious work against Miracles and Blade and even proofed it's power against S&T in Lille and you guys still feel more comfortable with running 3-4 copies of the completely untested Drain-Elf instead? Hell, cut the 4 NO and Hoofs and you have 6 free slots outta nowhere and can run Drain-Elf + a set of Sages

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I'm torn on that elf, but my logic is that he's strictly worse than DRS if you're trying for recursion via Wirewood and needs to many other elves to serve as the end of a Glimpse turn, even if he is easier to cast than Craterhoof in those situations. Certainly not as good as NO, because "oops I win" is so much easier when you just need 1-3 guys, rather than a whole Glimpse set up. Old information for most of you, I know, but I put this here for the benefit of anyone who has not obsessively read the past few hundred pages.

How did Rec. Sage prove itself in Lille for those of us not watching the feeds? What cuts do you recommend? The same ones you listed a few weeks ago, or have you come up with something new?

I don't understand. You want play 4 Reclamation Sage MD? For what? Only coubterbalance? The problem isn't CB, it's top. If you fear CB, play Cavern of Soul.

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Originally Posted by blind

I don't understand. You want play 4 Reclamation Sage MD? For what? Only coubterbalance? The problem isn't CB, it's top. If you fear CB, play Cavern of Soul.

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You don't get it and neither bother to read the last like 4 pages of this thread and want me to go though all that again despite my hints in the last post I made? Not gonna happen.

You should not fear SDT. If you fear SDT because of Terminus, step up your game. You don't lose because of Terminus, but because of Counterbalance preventing from ever getting a board again.

If you don't understand the fundamental Problem between Cavern + Glimpse/NO/Symbiote/SB discard/etc. I suggest playtesting

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Originally Posted by IMarques

I'm torn on that elf, but my logic is that he's strictly worse than DRS if you're trying for recursion via Wirewood and needs to many other elves to serve as the end of a Glimpse turn, even if he is easier to cast than Craterhoof in those situations. Certainly not as good as NO, because "oops I win" is so much easier when you just need 1-3 guys, rather than a whole Glimpse set up. Old information for most of you, I know, but I put this here for the benefit of anyone who has not obsessively read the past few hundred pages.

How did Rec. Sage prove itself in Lille for those of us not watching the feeds? What cuts do you recommend? The same ones you listed a few weeks ago, or have you come up with something new?

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The Problem with that Drain-Elf is that the only matchup in which you get a big enough amount of Elves into play and them staying there are those you win regardless of the wincon anyways, but it does nothing against combo unlike NO->Ruric for example or wins on the spot with just 3 other creatures in play like NO. It does not improve the worst matchups for Elves, but quite the opposite.

I already wrote it in the thread. Reclamation Sage simply owned a S&T -> Omniscience and ran away with the game after that desasterous 2-for-0 from the OmniTell player. Guess it was even a off-screen feature match and there was no 4-Sage Elves deck involved, but the play I was talking about in the last weeks just happened and won that game.

It was me on the feature match :-)

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You don't get it and neither bother to read the last like 4 pages of this thread and want me to go though all that again despite my hints in the last post I made? Not gonna happen.

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I have read but not a decklist, just speak. So it's was I don't understand.

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You should not fear SDT. If you fear SDT because of Terminus, step up your game. You don't lose because of Terminus, but because of Counterbalance preventing from ever getting a board again.

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You think a instant bordswiffer for W isn't a problem? It's. If SDT is banned, Miracle is a good deck? Without SDT, Counterbalance is a problem? No and No. I have never lost with only counterbalance in board. But I have lost with only SDT. It's was we played Null Rod.

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If you don't understand the fundamental Problem between Cavern + Glimpse/NO/Symbiote/SB discard/etc. I suggest playtesting

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Yeah obvious... I don't play Glimpse and I have a very good result with that. Decklist Glimpse isn't good now. Grixis killing your hand (probe Cabal) and SDT+CB killing Glimpse. You in Discard Vs Miracle?


S&T : you played Reclamation sage, He played Omnscience and you think you win? He can kill you in reponse. I have never win with this tech, all time he kill me in rep. All time..

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but the standard list is fairly unshakable until somebody starts posting results with a drastically different build

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So thruth.

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Originally Posted by Tammit67

Liking the new life loss elf. Completely uncomfortable with 4x sage, I got 1 main and that's I've been needing for now.

What happens if we up the bayou count, drop a NO and 1 hoof and maybe a glimpse or two for thoughtseizes main? Helps against stoneforge, not the worst against combo, can mitigate counterbalance hands too. I don't think I like the idea myself but there are worse adaptations

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If you go by ratios, we actually have roughly the same ratios of normal lands / fast mana (inc. Cradle) / business+win conditions as ANT does. The place where we have "overstock" is in mana generation. We typically have 2 slots of disruption, they play 6. We replace those with more mana.

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Originally Posted by blind

Yeah obvious... I don't play Glimpse and I have a very good result with that. Decklist Glimpse isn't good now. Grixis killing your hand (probe Cabal) and SDT+CB killing Glimpse. You in Discard Vs Miracle?

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I like this list.

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Originally Posted by blind

I have read but not a decklist, just speak. So it's was I don't understand.

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It boils down to: "Present me a final 75 to I don't have to deal with details myself"? The cuts are imo pretty obvious so I did not bother with a list.

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Originally Posted by blind

You think a instant bordswiffer for W isn't a problem? It's. If SDT is banned, Miracle is a good deck? Without SDT, Counterbalance is a problem? No and No. I have never lost with only counterbalance in board. But I have lost with only SDT. It's was we played Null Rod

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Terminus is NOT a problem, but you thinking it is tells me that you are likely overextending and thus losing. You blame Terminus and SDT for losing despite running a shitload of cardadvantage to even out 3-for-1 losses. You want to see SDT banned because you misplay against Terminus? *slowclap*

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Originally Posted by blind

Yeah obvious... I don't play Glimpse and I have a very good result with that. Decklist Glimpse isn't good now. Grixis killing your hand (probe Cabal) and SDT+CB killing Glimpse. You in Discard Vs Miracle?

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So you cut a cardadvantage engine and complain that you can't recover from Terminus. Find the flaw.

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Originally Posted by blind

S&T : you played Reclamation sage, He played Omnscience and you think you win? He can kill you in reponse. I have never win with this tech, all time he kill me in rep. All time..

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He MIGHT can. If he/she does not have the instant speed kill in hand, they die. If they have to sculpt an instant speed win before casting S&T they need extra time which makes your discard better and slows them down so you might NO before they can combo. I explained this already two times before in the last couple of pages and tried to fight the shallow thinking that "Sage kills OmniTell on its own".

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Originally Posted by blind

So thruth.

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This is the lazy approach: "Let someone else convince me with big tournament results or I don't change a thing and rather bitch about the status quo". Do you accept Cockatrice results?

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Originally Posted by elFinFas

It was me on the feature match :-)

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Oh! Congratz! Just for confirmation: You killed Carsten Kötters UR OmniTell with a Sage out of your Maverick/Loam/dunno? He told me later that day in front of the venue about that :)

Dude, I started to play Elves in Legacy with Chord and Pact version, so please don't talk me like I don't know what I speak. :) I have win several tournament with this deck, lot of top 8 and lot of years. :)

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The cuts are imo pretty obvious so I did not bother with a list.

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NO ! :) I don't understand how you can cut obvious 3 cards for 3 more Reclamation Sage.

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1 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
2 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
3 Heritage Druid
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Sylvan Library

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Classic decklist, explain me what you cut.

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Terminus is NOT a problem, but you thinking it is tells me that you are likely overextending and thus losing. You blame Terminus and SDT for losing despite running a shitload of cardadvantage to even out 3-for-1 losses. You want to see SDT banned because you misplay against Terminus? *slowclap*

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In french it's : mauvaise foi. Yes only terminus isn't a problem. SDT is a problem not only with miracle cards. SDT make a Card Quality and THIS CARD QUALITY kill us. SDT installs a strategy and this stragegy kill us on the long term.

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So you cut a cardadvantage engine and complain that you can't recover from Terminus. Find the flaw.

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But you explain me :

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because of Counterbalance preventing from ever getting a board again.

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With CB in Board, opponent play terminus (classic set up Vs Miracle). You want what? Your Glimpse? Or my Fauna? Fauna make CA and she is really better than Glimpse Vs contrôle or Grixis. I have win a lot of tournament with Fauna and I have never understand why people don't play this card.

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He MIGHT can. If he/she does not have the instant speed kill in hand, they die. If they have to sculpt an instant speed win before casting S&T they need extra time which makes your discard better and slows them down so you might NO before they can combo. I explained this already two times before in the last couple of pages and tried to fight the shallow thinking that "Sage kills OmniTell on its own".

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I asked Jean Mary Accart (he played OmniShow, famous french player, top 8 GP Legacy, blablabla) : If I put Reclamation Sage on S&T, you kill me in reponse? His reponse : Yeah 90%. And I can just put Emrakul, no Omniscience.

My Decklist with Fauna is good for this set up (rep S&T, tutor Reclamation and put it) but he kill me in reponse... It's was Ruric is fucking better :)

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This is the lazy approach: "Let someone else convince me with big tournament results or I don't change a thing and rather bitch about the status quo". Do you accept Cockatrice results?

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I'm the first men to innove with this deck so I don't understand why write that. I think I have build 500 decklist of elves in Legacy.. (Intuition, Mystical tutor, Beck, full combo pact, brainstorm, buried alive VV, Survival, Curio, etc.....)

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I like this list.

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Thanks :) Since Craterhoof Behemoth, Elfball isn't a Glimpse combo deck but more a Naural Order Combo Deck. Glimpse is the best card but the cards for this strategy isn't really good. You don't want lot of Druidesse, you don't want lot of Nettle without Glimpse in hand. In fact I wanted only a good draw. Or Draw Nettle, Druidesse isn't really good. I wanted good cards when it goes wrong. I don't play ElfBall, I play Elves Advantage ! :) And this Decklist is strong ! I have cut 1 Hoof for 1 Sylvan MD and the sideboard has evolved.

I think we all have to wait until the new ban-hammer and see if we have to get a simple rollback to the pre Khans Meta (DtB for Elves), if DTT is gone, or if we can use the "chaos" if the ugly Top (and Miracle as a deck) also gets killed, or if nothing happen and we still have to fight the Miracle and Omnitell monsters around.

If the latter will happen, feel free to discuss Lemnears "More Sages" Idea again (which doesn't sound bad in the current meta), otherwise: Blinds ideas with Fauna Shaman and Vengevine + (and that seems new) including the common NO tech sounds very fresh, or we can (or must...) simply pack the sideboard full with blue hatestuff like chokes and Kgrips and hope it is enough (i dont like it...).

Thanks to Magic Origins, the Shaman of the Pack will also get some test runs around the world.

I will switch the Shaman with my Packmaster (which is my 4th NO slot) and i will also run a 2nd copy (for grindy games) along with a 2nd copy of Sage (untill the meta gets crushed next monday :tongue:) and see how it works. It's true, that NO will be the fast&safe win if you opponent can't interact with the deck well enough, because it uses a small amount of creatures and simply stomp out the common (and lovely) Hoof-Kill.

Shaman of the Pack will act as a "backup" (see Packmaster) and if the Elves-Army can attack some turns (which is the common plan, if your opponent isn't a goldfish) it is totally ok to deal a small amount of damage with the Shaman as a finishing move. What i like is, that it is another angle of attack, which will make it also harder for opponents to find the right mix of disruption (you face a Cage against NO and play Shaman for "GG" etc.).

Another idea would be the cut of NO and the 2nd Hoof for: 3x Shaman of the Pack and 1x Gaddock Teeg (which will win against Storm G1) etc. - it will be more about combat, bouncing shaman and/or resolving glimpse (which gets better with more creatures).

This deck will evolve after the next monday, one way or another :cool:

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Originally Posted by blind

Dude, I started to play Elves in Legacy with Chord and Pact version, so please don't talk me like I don't know what I speak. :) I have win several tournament with this deck, lot of top 8 and lot of years. :)

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...and this makes people blind for problems caused by shifting metagames. I suffer from this effect like everyone else who is playing a certain deck for a very long period of time. It's like keep playing Goblins or Doomsday "because the deck worked flawless 7 years ago" and ignoring all that happened over the years which harmed the decks directly or indirectly. Elves are challenged by Miracles, Blade and, OmniTell ... we have to tackle THESE issues.

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Originally Posted by blind

NO ! :) I don't understand how you can cut obvious 3 cards for 3 more Reclamation Sage.

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2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Pendelhaven
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Verdant Catacombs

4 Reclamation Sage
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
3 Heritage Druid
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Nettle Sentinel

4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order

due to my experience, more than 8 mana accelerants in this metagame create some do-nothing hands/draws which just ask to be blown out.

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Originally Posted by blind

In french it's : mauvaise foi. Yes only terminus isn't a problem. SDT is a problem not only with miracle cards. SDT make a Card Quality and THIS CARD QUALITY kill us. SDT installs a strategy and this stragegy kill us on the long term.

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Now we come to the point: You die to the cardadvantage your opponent creates with the combination of SDT/Terminus/Counterbalance. The problem here is that you can't really hate out SDT with mainboardable cards, but you can deal with Counterbalance/Omniscience/Batterskull/Jitte/Chalice on a common base which makes more than 50% of the metagame and significantly improves your game 1.

What do you do to tackle the problem with SDT/Terminus/Counterbalance? You bitch around and want it banned aka waiting for someone else to fix your problem.

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Originally Posted by blind

With CB in Board, opponent play terminus (classic set up Vs Miracle). You want what? Your Glimpse? Or my Fauna? Fauna make CA and she is really better than Glimpse Vs contrôle or Grixis. I have win a lot of tournament with Fauna and I have never understand why people don't play this card.

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I want Sage ... destroying the Counterbalance and installing a clock. Fauna makes no cardadvantage. You drop the creature and need additional ones to do anything. Tbh the card is slow as fuck which is a problem itself in this metagame and the reason I stopped exploring this angle further after the tests ~3 months ago. Fauna/Vengevine loses a lot of appeal if the mass removal of choice being Terminus.

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Originally Posted by blind

I asked Jean Mary Accart (he played OmniShow, famous french player, top 8 GP Legacy, blablabla) : If I put Reclamation Sage on S&T, you kill me in reponse? His reponse : Yeah 90%. And I can just put Emrakul, no Omniscience.

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I know Jean-Mary, no need to mention him here, but tell me how your Fauna/Vengevine does improve the matchup? Or the matchup against Blade or Miracles? It does not and that's the point.

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Originally Posted by blind

My Decklist with Fauna is good for this set up (rep S&T, tutor Reclamation and put it) but he kill me in reponse... It's was Ruric is fucking better :)

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Yeah, because we bank on your opponent not dropping S&T before our turn 3 and us having a Fauna Shaman in play which is not longer affected by summoning sickness so you can fetch for Ruric. *slowclap*

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Originally Posted by blind

I'm the first men to innove with this deck so I don't understand why write that. I think I have build 500 decklist of elves in Legacy.. (Intuition, Mystical tutor, Beck, full combo pact, brainstorm, buried alive VV, Survival, Curio, etc.....)

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You toyed around with a lot of stuff which had obvious weaknesses. What are you trying to tell me here? That you skip evaluation and reason before putting time into testing and the time you put into unneccessary durdling has to be credited?

Hello to everyone ,
This weekend i played at the gp lille whith elves.
O finish at the 55th place.
This is my list:
http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/07...fc0c3362cc.jpg

I made 8-1 in the first day Including a feature match against delver grixis (my only lost in the first day) muligan to 3 in first game, win 2nd and lost 3rd to a from the top counterspell :-/

Those were my matchups:

R1-jund won 2-0
R2-bug delver won 2-0
R3-merfolks won 2-0
R4-imperial taxes won 2-1
R5-grixis delver lost 1-2 (feature match)
R6-mud won 2-1
R7-elves won 2-0
R8-storm won 2-0
R9-miracles won 2-0

Day2

R10-omnitell lost 0-2
R11-miracles won 2-0
R12-merfolks won 2-0
R13-miracles draw 1-1
R14-miracles lost 0-2
R15-4color loam id

It was positive i think.
My problem isn't miracles at all! O just do the beat down plan whith birchlore in morph, pendelhaven, arbor/quirion and i try to draw as much cards as possible!
The omnitell is the quimera! :-( i think

Congrats ElFinFas!

Blind, mauvaise foi => Bloody minded.
And I think too that you are a bit bloody minded on some issues Lemnear

About your list, can you seriously argue that:
a/ Sage is good partly because you can put it on play from S&T and remove Ruric from your list?
b/ Say that we should fix our bad MUS with a list featuring 4 NOs and only one hoof as a target, without the aforesaid demon?
c/ No birchlore is where we want to be? you posted a list without SB.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I want Sage ... destroying the Counterbalance and installing a clock. Fauna makes no cardadvantage. You drop the creature and need additional ones to do anything. Tbh the card is slow as fuck which is a problem itself in this metagame and the reason I stopped exploring this angle further after the tests ~3 months ago. Fauna/Vengevine loses a lot of appeal if the mass removal of choice being Terminus.

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You cannot keep saying that everybody play so poorly if they get destroyed by terminus and say that fauna-VV is bad vs terminus. The trigger is a you may, so you always can put enough pressure on the board while keeping the VV in the yard, then put 1 or 2 VV on the battlefield after a terminus.
Fauna is good enough for forcing the miracle player to cast terminus even on a 1 to 1 basis, which is exactly where we want to be in the MU.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

I know Jean-Mary, no need to mention him here, but tell me how your Fauna/Vengevine does improve the matchup? Or the matchup against Blade or Miracles? It does not and that's the point.

Yeah, because we bank on your opponent not dropping S&T before our turn 3 and us having a Fauna Shaman in play which is not longer affected by summoning sickness so you can fetch for Ruric. *slowclap*

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Turn 2 you reliably have fauna into play (4 fauna + 4 GSZ). OTP it means that we have active fauna when our opponent can cast S&T (his T3), and Ruric is the real deal here, Sage is bad. OTD it is a bit slow, but it is still a very good plan, omnitell player does not always win by turn 3, and we play some discard post SB.

For blade it is already a good MU, and miracle I answered above. Not to mention that if CB hit the play, Fauna can fetch your dear Sage.
By the way, I played versus a good miracle player Lille, and he desided the CB to blank decay/sages post SB, so maybe overloading with sage is not the best idea.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dte

By the way, I played versus a good miracle player Lille, and he desided the CB to blank decay/sages post SB, so maybe overloading with sage is not the best idea.

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I reflexively grimaced. Sounds like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dte

Turn 2 you reliably have fauna into play (4 fauna + 4 GSZ). OTP it means that we have active fauna when our opponent can cast S&T (his T3), and Ruric is the real deal here, Sage is bad. OTD it is a bit slow, but it is still a very good plan, omnitell player does not always win by turn 3, and we play some discard post side.

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You can lose with S&T -> Ruric.
Playing a Iona SB to be fetched with a fauna when S&T is on the stack is better.
The only corner case where you would lose is:
1) your opponent puts Emmy
2) you cannot sacrifice 6 permanents other than Iona
3) you cannot kill your opponent within the next two attack phases

In 90 % case, Iona naming blue is game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

You can lose with S&T -> Ruric.
Playing a Iona SB to be fetched with a fauna when S&T is on the stack is better.
The only corner case where you would lose is:
1) your opponent puts Emmy
2) you cannot sacrifice 6 permanents other than Iona
3) you cannot kill your opponent within the next two attack phases

In 90 % case, Iona naming blue is game.

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Elves Extreme, featuring 1 Painter's Servant and 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dte

About your list, can you seriously argue that:
a/ Sage is good partly because you can put it on play from S&T and remove Ruric from your list?
b/ Say that we should fix our bad MUS with a list featuring 4 NOs and only one hoof as a target, without the aforesaid demon?
c/ No birchlore is where we want to be? you posted a list without SB.

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a) Ruric is moved to the sideboard as you might guess. Honestly, having Ruric if you cut Birchlores is iffy (I come to that) and the chance to slam him game 1 against an unknown opponent IN TIME once you realize you are up against combo, is pretty low. Postboard aka if you KNOW you are up against combo, you can board him in and keep/mull into hands which support turn 2 NO to make Ruric a weapon. He's just totally random in game 1 and thus I opt to cut him from the MB

b) Yeah, NO are a tool for kill-option redundancy and an additional tutor still. You want to tell me that having Hoof or Ruric in hand is good against Miracles and Jitte? Get me right: I'm looking for stability against ALL these matchups.

c) There is something awkward in topdecking Birchlores, Fyndhorns or the like which are very low impact after turn 3. I wanted to reduce the hands and draws which leave us with a shitload of mana but nothing to do other than attacking with the doods while we're out of actual plays. I'm sure you know,what I'm talking about. I hate posting sideboards in general.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dte

You cannot keep saying that everybody play so poorly if they get destroyed by terminus and say that fauna-VV is bad vs terminus. The trigger is a you may, so you always can put enough pressure on the board while keeping the VV in the yard, then put 1 or 2 VV on the battlefield after a terminus.
Fauna is good enough for forcing the miracle player to cast terminus even on a 1 to 1 basis, which is exactly where we want to be in the MU.

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How long do you think you can keep your board alive to throw several vengevines into the yard? How do you think to get out of SDT/Counterbalance/Terminus if you have to throw two creatures right into counterbalance to get the vengevines back, which your opponent can simply plow on a 1-for-1 base or Terminus if you return 2+ Vines? Lets face it: Fauna is carddisadvantage if you want to setup Vines and we want to do the exact opposite against Miracles: Getting as much cardadvantage as possible to overcome Terminus. Visionaries do. Glimpse does. Sage does.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dte

Turn 2 you reliably have fauna into play (4 fauna + 4 GSZ). OTP it means that we have active fauna when our opponent can cast S&T (his T3), and Ruric is the real deal here, Sage is bad. OTD it is a bit slow, but it is still a very good plan, omnitell player does not always win by turn 3, and we play some discard post SB.

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Which requires you to T1 mana acceleration, if you want to use GSZ and the plan is foiled anyways, if you start on the draw. Not even asking about you being required to identify your opponents deck in a turn or two.

If you want to argue with Fauna + Discard, wouldn't it be fair to give Sage the same favor and ask what your opponent is going to do with S&T + Omniscience, if you hold Sage in hand and discard his/her DTT aka instant-win turn 1/2?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dte

For blade it is already a good MU, and miracle I answered above. Not to mention that if CB hit the play, Fauna can fetch your dear Sage.
By the way, I played versus a good miracle player Lille, and he desided the CB to blank decay/sages post SB, so maybe overloading with sage is not the best idea.

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IF you get it into play as a 2cmc spell against counterbalance, IF you have another creature in hand and IF it does not get removed while summing sick.

I don't see why he removed counterbalance and what he sided in instead. Should have been a cakewalk for you, no? Look at it from another angle: The MB Sages also reeuce the requirement for all those Decays in sideboard as your Decays are fetchable and 2/1

To make long story short, here is the list we have created with a former well-known french "elfball" player.

There are no fancy "Natural Order" nor "Glimpse" in there.
The list is very skill intensive and requires to think "out of the box".
It is inspired from the very beginning/roots of Elfball at its origin.
Some will like it, some won't.

My friend won one of the very last trial on friday evening and his list did not get to be published on wizard website. (beating Miracle and Omni on his way)
Anyway, he didn't make day 2 because of a loss against Grixis Delver + Infect and an unfortunate draw against Miracle.

I guess he was lacking a bit of legacy competition since he didn't play legacy (and Magic, in general) for quite a longtime.

Nonetheless, I can assure you that this list can stand Miracle and Omni if played properly.

Cave Elves! by Cyrius & Ralf


1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Savannah
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mirror Entity
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Selvala, Explorer Returned
1 Wirewood Hivemaster
2 Birchlore Rangers
2 Heritage Druid
2 Vengevine
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Chord of Calling
4 Green Sun's Zenith


Sideboard

1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Imperious Perfect
1 Dryad Militant
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Choke
4 Chalice of the Void


For any questions, I'll ask my friend to come and step by this thread.
Until then, I'm sure Blind will be happy to answer any questions you might have even if his tweaked version is still packing NO.

I'm pretty sure you'll understand why CB is not a problem in this deck...

Happy testing.

EDIT: name of the deck was missing, my bad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by square_two

Elves Extreme, featuring 1 Painter's Servant and 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria.

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I lol'd

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

To make long story short, here is the list we have created with a former well-known french "elfball" player.

There are no fancy "Natural Order" nor "Glimpse" in there.
The list is very skill intensive and requires to think "out of the box".
It is inspired from the very beginning/roots of Elfball at its origin.
Some will like it, some won't.

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Sorry to pull a Lemnear, but is skill intensive and "out of the box" code for bad?

I don't really understand what this list is doing other than trying to fuel a giant Chord and doing so poorly because it isn't playing Glimpse. Could you tell us what the list is trying to accomplish?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IMarques

I lol'd



Sorry to pull a Lemnear, but is skill intensive and "out of the box" code for bad?

I don't really understand what this list is doing other than trying to fuel a giant Chord and doing so poorly because it isn't playing Glimpse. Could you tell us what the list is trying to accomplish?

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a giant chord ? I don't see any "giant" creature in this list.
Iona is purely for the Omni MU.

Either you go for the good old aggro route.
Either you insta kill with Mirror Entity.

Is this a "question code" for telling us you are bad at reading a deck list ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IMarques

Sorry to pull a Lemnear, but is skill intensive and "out of the box" code for bad?

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I lol'd

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ralf

Either you go for the good old aggro route.
Either you insta kill with Mirror Entity.

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Had to check the date, because for a second I thought it's 2012 again

If you want to play XGGG spells, you might just as well go with Genesis Wave.

Good times. Unfortunately, long gone times.

Quote:

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Had to check the date, because for a second I thought it's 2012 again

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Quote:

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If you want to play XGGG spells, you might just as well go with Genesis Wave.

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Two genius. Good luck.