[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

I've got some questions on side boarding for everyone. I'm playing UB Tendrils (LaxStorm) and wanted to know how people are side boarding? I know there's been a lot of discussion about what to bring in, but I'm curious as to what people are broarding out.

For example, against a deck like Merfolk, do we board out petals, cantrips, rituals? I'm thinking a discussion that covers what is boarded out against the following decks would be helpful considering we have a lot of discussion about what is boarded in. I understand that differing builds means the answers will vary to some degree, but in principal the cards that are boarder out should be the same; Wish based decks won't really "board" often so not really relevant to this question. However, boards that have Doomsday and those that don't are.

Match ups in question:

Counterbalance

Merfolk

Goblins

Chalice based decks

Stifle Wasteland decks
-Team America

-RUG

Junk

Assuming i wanted to play Lax Storm but only had 1 grim tutor should I go for it and if so what should I replace the other grim with?

jazzy, I have that same issue, only one tutor, my initial thoughts would be to play a maindeck doomsday, it gives us an additional bomb, and comboing off of it is still possible

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

By far the most common play you will make when you have an Infernal Tutor in your board, is going to be Wish for Infernal, Go. Winning the same turn requires 9 mana for the combo alone. You are generally trying to be playing around Daze or Duressing in the meantime.

However, in pretty much every scenario in the current format (where you're either being beaten down quickly, being comboed out or being tempoed out), Wish->Infernal, go is worse than Wish->EtW or Wish->Returns. This deck can't behave like Doomsday combo because the Infernal Tutor engine depends on either high life totals or the absence of counters/other harmful spells in the opponent's graveyard. Wish->Infernal Tutor isn't a winning play often enough to warrant cutting your most powerful engine down by one in the mainboard, even in this list that can generally make slightly more mana than TES does.

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Now that I have played around with my build, granted only on MWS, I have my arguments for 3/4 Infernal/Wish main, 1 Tutor side.

I have come acrossed many games where I am unable to iggy loop for one reason or another, or I need to go for AdN but my only Tutor is a Wish. Now while I agree Wish > Go isnt the best play, it's a lot better then losing.

Wish > go, and then winning next turn is a hell of a lot better then hoping to draw into the right stuff to make your Wish work. Maybe this is due to my lack of Red mana and Wish > ETW not always being viable, or maybe I just need to slow down a bit and think through my options. . or just get better at combo in general, but in this deck that is a little bit slower then TES, I really like the mix I have going.

Makes sense with your build. In the situations where you go Wish -> Tutor pass the turn, you would generally go Wish -> Returns with TES. You aren't playing Returns, so if IGG and EtW aren't options, Wish is kinda dead. Since TES plays Diminishing Returns, Wish is never completely dead.

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Originally Posted by Neuad

Now that I have played around with my build, granted only on MWS, I have my arguments for 3/4 Infernal/Wish main, 1 Tutor side.

I have come acrossed many games where I am unable to iggy loop for one reason or another, or I need to go for AdN but my only Tutor is a Wish. Now while I agree Wish > Go isnt the best play, it's a lot better then losing.

Wish > go, and then winning next turn is a hell of a lot better then hoping to draw into the right stuff to make your Wish work. Maybe this is due to my lack of Red mana and Wish > ETW not always being viable, or maybe I just need to slow down a bit and think through my options. . or just get better at combo in general, but in this deck that is a little bit slower then TES, I really like the mix I have going.

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how often do you find yourself with access to RR and a burning wish to empty the warrens? has it been good/ mediocore/ nice to have as a backup( leyline i guess?) or just kind of meh. i don't really seeing it help the tempo based matchups but like the increase of tutors, but alas dislike the third color. it's an interesting tradeoff.

mainly just wondering how much you have emptied the warrens and if it was worth it.

I havent play the deck in anything but MWS and goldfishing, but it's nice having it as a backup plan, and RR usually isnt too hard to come by with LED's and Petals if I'm going specifically for ETW.

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Originally Posted by Neuad

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 4 [6E] Doomsday
SB: 1 [LRW] Shelldock Isle
SB: 1 [M10] Deathmark
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

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Hey Neuad, I was tinkering with a singleton Tropical Island in the maindeck with Xantid Swarms to bring in against blue and a Reverent Silence to wish for against Counterbalance, but I don't like the strain on an already greedy manabase, so I'm going to test out the Doomsday package.

Do you typically board in all 4 copies of Doomsday against Counterbalance, or do you keep one in the board for Burning Wish?

I board in all 4. Wish is too slow against countertop. You want to go turn one or two doomsday. Its still a rough matchup even with doomsday.

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Originally Posted by Fossil4182

I've got some questions on side boarding for everyone. I'm playing UB Tendrils (LaxStorm) and wanted to know how people are side boarding? I know there's been a lot of discussion about what to bring in, but I'm curious as to what people are broarding out.

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Ok, since there are a million different little changes people can make in their boards depending on what they expect, here's what I have fairly standard...

1x Emrakul
1x Shell Dock
4x Doomsday
1x Tropical Island
4x Xantid Swarm
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Rebuild
1x Ad Nauseam

This board is based around trying to help your bad matchups, but it sacrifices some flexibility when 11 or so cards are dedicated to so few matches. Tropical and Xantid come in vs. the *fishy* matchups (aggro counter based decks like fish and Team America) and the DD packages generally against Counterbalance. It's worth noting my list has -1 swamp and -1 island for 2 Chrome Mox in the main, and -1 Duress +1 Thoughtsieze. (From Ari's list)

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Match ups in question:

Counterbalance

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In:
4x Doomsday
1x Emrakul
1x Shell Dock
1x Chain of Vapor

-1 Infernal Tutor
-1 Island
-2 Preordain
-2 Lion's Eye Diamond
-1 Ad Nauseam

While I agree with Ari that emptying your hand to cast doomsday (LED/Infernal) can be bad, I don't like siding out all my infernals, as it's still very possible to go for an IGG/Tutor Chain kill, especially with the additional action. The way this SB is built, you are still cold to Karakas / Wasteland, so be aware. Also, you are not very likely to *surprise* anyone with this board plan any more... but it's still very strong, especially t1/t2.

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Merfolk

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1x Tropical Island
4x Xantid Swarm

-1 Island
-2 Duress
-2 Preordain

I leave in thoughtsieze over duress as it hits lords. Most fish decks have no answer's to a resolved Xantid, so they basically can do nothing (except race) about stopping you if you resolve him.

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Goblins

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1x Ad Nauseam
2x Chain of Vapor

-2 Preordain
-1 Duress

Goblins can bring in any random # of stuff, with probably the most common being mindbreak trap (lately) which is why I go -2 pre -1 duress instead of the opposite (which would be better if they bring in thoughtsiezes of their own.) Chain is good if they bring in chalice (obviously not for 1 haha) and really, sometimes it's just good to bounce their guy.

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Chalice based decks

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Haven't played a ton of these, but the Rebuild is definitely still in there for them. (as opposed to Affinity, which it usually doesn't do much more than fog)

Against Dragon Stompy you can bring in the DD package, as they run too greedy a manabase to run wasteland as well. Obviously rebuild is coming in as well, and probably the chains. Sadly, with very little experience against the deck I hate to suggest what to take out. Maybe somebody with some more experience will chime in. Otherwise... I'll try testing it soon.

Against Sea Stompy Emrakul can be a liability as most versions run 2x Sowers. I would probably treat them like a fish deck but add a chain and a rebuild.

Against the Green version... I just don't have any clue... haven't seen one in a long time though so maybe there is hope ;)

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-Team America

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1x Tropical Island
4x Xantid Swarm
+1 Ad Nauseam

-1 Underground Sea
-2 Preordain
-2 Chrome Mox
-1 Grim Tutor

I take out the mox's as they are pretty bad against any deck that is attacking your hand. Preordain gets cut as it's the next *worst* spell (although I guess you could make some argument towards lotus petal here) and the Swarms come back in, as they are only slightly worse against Team America than they are against Fish. The grim trades out with a second Ad Nauseam, as it's raw power just shines against decks that run stuff like hymn.

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-RUG

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Also haven't played a ton against this deck... a lot of the lists look fairly strong vs. ANT, with a good mix of counters + ways to stop Emrakul post board. Again, somebody with more experience should add in their plan.

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Junk

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3x Doomsday
1x Ad Nauseam
2x Chain of Vapor

-2 Grim Tutor
-2 Chrome Mox
-1 Lotus Petal
-1 Duress

You just want action vs. their discard. Grim Tutor is just way worse than doomsday (as you can make some pretty good doomsday piles, even pass the turn piles, when you consider that their life total is usually under strain from Bob's / Fetches.) in this match... and again, the raw power of ad Nauseam is just nuts if you get it online with enough life. Chain comes in vs. their hatebears.

Hope this helps some, of course sideboarding (and building a sideboard for that matter) has a lot of wiggle room depending on how comfortable the pilot feels with certain cards.

This is what me and Ari came up with for people without Grim Tutors.

-2 Grim Tutor
-1 Infernal Tutor (this goes to the sideboard)
-1 Island
-2 Verdant Catacombs

+3 Burning Wish
+1 Volcanic Island
+2 Bloodstained Mire

The Burning Wish -> Infernal Tutor -> Iggy loop costs the same as just doing the IGGy loop with Grim Tutor, but saves you six life.

Additionally, you gain some versatility in that you can:
-Wish for Deathmark (or some other sorcery)
-Wish for Doomsday [This comes up very rarely. You have to have BBBUU floating after casting the wish.]
-Make 10 goblins on turn 1. [Again, not the primary plan, but sometimes this is correct, and EtW is better than the sorcery boomerang, which I never wished for.]

And yes, four Burning Wish was too many.

It's been my experience even when I did own 2x Grim Tutor and Ad Nauseam wasn't printed yet, 4 wishes is the best choice. One for the wish, otherwise infernal is just better. Grim is bad with ad nauseam 'cause it loses 2-3 flips with the life loss. Very relevant. Also, it's not that whoopy in the IGG loop either, as it screws with your mana, and allows your life total to be relevant. I run 4 wish, 3 IT, with the 4th in the board along w/ IGG #2. No grims, they complicate things, and never in my experience have they done anything useful other than act as a 5th IT, which isn't necessary unless all 4 IT's are already present in the main-board, and there's no reason for it to be game one in a list with 4x wishes.

I don't know, I think Ad Nauseam is the weakest link in the list. I know the speedy, win-now attitude it takes really entices a lot of players, and often even wins the matches it's used in, but the hard part of storm isn't the early game, it's the mid/late game that can ruin your day. Taking your time against CB lists, as well as landstill lists (haven't had a chance to play against the newest builds enough to speak on it) can be brutal on the "lets combo ASAP" style of player. Ad Nauseam might be able to be replaced. Doomsday can be fast, but it doesn't necessarily have to be.

Has anyone ever looked into Praetor's Council? I know it costs 8 but it might be useful. Wish target...idk. It looks like a real expensive but possibly playable Yawgmoth's Will that is wish-able. BUrg lists could at least look at it. It takes minimum Rit, Rit, LED, 1(R), and resolve it. That's 2x rits and an LED back minimum. I really want it to be useable...It looks like funky trix.

Disclaimer: A lil' drunk, but I feel I've expressed my thoughts accurately, if not a bit naively.

--ABC

@Malakai: very interesting with burning but...how is finally the sb?
-1 Chain of Vapor
-1 Trickbind
+1 deathmark
+1 empty the warrens

My sideboard is:
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Doomsday
1 Emrakul
1 Shelldock Isle
1 Deathmark
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Thoughtseize
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Infernal Tutor
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There's something to be said for having Rebuild in there somewhere. I'm not sure how necessary the Tendriils in the board is. A second Ad Naseam is good when you expect to play against discard.

I didn't like having four Wishes. Infernal Tutor is better in multiples, as you can use it to up storm count for free or grab a second ritual/LED, whereas the Wish basically just grabs a Thoughtseize in those situations.

I'm thinking of dropping the DD package for my local meta, and possibly even all together. Sure it does better against countertop, but I dont feel its still very good. Especially now that they expect it. I think it's better in Ari's build, but with a Wish board I feel it takes up too many slots and hurts me more then helps me overall.

Dropping the dd package is valid, although it basically puts you in a position where you need to be able to Duress them before their second turn. I think if I were to do that I'd consider the Empty the Warrens plan to be plan A against them post-board. Consider testing a second one in the sideboard so that it can be brought into the maindeck in games 2 and 3.

I can see that being a plan, currently replaced the sideboard with a shitload of bounce

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [M10] Deathmark
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [CHK] Eye of Nowhere
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall

I gotta think about this one.

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Originally Posted by Neuad

I can see that being a plan, currently replaced the sideboard with a shitload of bounce

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 2 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 1 [M10] Deathmark
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [CHK] Eye of Nowhere
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [10E] Hurkyl's Recall

I gotta think about this one.

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just an observation, but you want at least one of the hurkyl's to be a rebuild. Chalice on 2 is a very real possibility early against some decks (dragon stompy / MUD)

There's no reason to have an Ill-Gotten Gains in your wishboard. Wish is removed from the game when it resolves, so you'd have to have an additional tutor/business spell in your hand/graveyard for it to do anything. I started out with one in mine, and in all my testing it came up exactly one time. The likelihood of that rare occurrence being at a time when it matters is very, very, very small.

I also had Eye of Nowhere. I think I might have been glad it was there one time. You'd much rather have a real sideboard card in that slot.

I don't like Shattering Spree. You're probably not going to have more than one red mana after you cast the Wish; two if you're lucky and they didn't jump at the chance of finally using their usually-dead Wasteland against you. Other options include Meltdown or Echoing Ruin, or (sigh) Eye of Nowhere. That said, I just don't think wishing for an answer to artifact hate is a realistic plan. You can still win through a Sphere or Chalice, and Deathmark already kills Ethersworn Canonist. Any slots you dedicate to it just seem better suited to being a Hurkyl's/Rebuild for games 2 and 3.

I've never liked Wipe Away. A smart Counterbalance player is going to float a 3drop on top, reducing your window to the end of your turn / beginning of theirs. Sure, you can still cast a spell, then once they top respond by bouncing it, but area you really going to have enough mana left over after spending two cards plus 1UU? What you actually want to do with the card is bounce the Counterbalance before they get a chance to find that 3drop, and that means finding your Wipe Away and three lands before it comes down. To me that means at least 3 of them, but then you start to get to the point where I have to ask if the Doomsday plan isn't just a better use of those slots.

And remember kids, don't be afraid to take a mulligan so that you can Duress them before they can play their hate. The same goes for spending a Lotus Petal on doing that.

Is the fear of Chalice on two the only justification for running Rebuild over Hurkyl's Recall? I understand that Rebuild cycles, and in some situations when you're playing draw go, you can drop petals/LEDs and then end of their turn Rebuild so you don't have to discard excess artifact mana. However, the speed of being able to recall for only two mana does seem fairly good. I also don't see Chalice decks running around with a lot of frequency since Aggro Loam, Dragon Stompy and MUD are not very popular so I'm wondering if that fear is justified.