What's your SB-strategy for the mirror these days? ;)
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What's your SB-strategy for the mirror these days? ;)
Submerge, REB, and Scavagening Ooze for me. I typically board out Force of Will, Forked Bolt, and some number of Daze/Stifle/Pierce. Submerge is really great here due to the high number of fetches your RUG opponent runs, REB kills Delver and counters pivotal blue spells, and Ooze can gain you crucial life points all while keeping your opponent off threshold.
With that being said, I fully expect to see the same cards come in for my opponent versus me. There's nothing more deflating than cracking a fetchland and getting my Goyf submerged, or losing a counter war because my opponent's REB > my conditional countermagic.
Done testing with UW Miracle again. My list btw, for reference:
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
1 Taiga
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Ponder
2 Forked Bolt
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
2 Thought Scour
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
Sideboard:
3 Submerge
2 REB
2 BEB
2 Pithing Needle
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Guilded Drake
The UW Miracle version, was again not the CB type but it had 2 MD Humility along with Snapcasters and Ponders. Pre-board went 3-1 in my favor. Now, Stifling the Miracle trigger is really the way to go IMHO. Spell Pierce also helped a lot for Planeswalkers.
However, it was really interesting that I went 1-4 after boarding. During SB it was: -3 Daze, -2 Snare, - 1 Forked Bolt in favor of +2 REB, +2 Needle and 2 Surgical Extraction. He boarded in 3 Surgicals, 2 BEB and 2 Path to Exiles and 2 Disenchants.
During those 4 losses, he always managed to resolve an Elspeth which I had no answer for. I dont know if I am playing the deck wrongly post-board but early Path to Exiles on Delvers, and Goyfs were enough for him to stem the early pressure and cause me to lose.
He also had Snapcasters and Factories which made my Geese a sitting duck early on and long enough for him to resolve a Miracled Terminus, Elspeth, and the like.
Opening hands were also not that good. I always mulled to 6 (on the play) during those losses which obv did not help.
Thinking of upping the Needle to 3 as a result.
Decks that are dedicated to removing creatures (many Miracle lists look to do just that with Terminus, StP, Vedelkan Shackles, etc) will have game versus us as we only run 12 creatures. 12. And only 4 of them protect themselves, meaning we need to use our countermagic to protect our non-Shroud creatures + use countermagic to stop opponent's bombs.
UW Miracle feat. CB seems to be even worse for us. This is definitely not an MU I am looking forward to play against. However, this might be where Sulfuric Vortex could shine again. If I only got time to test as much as I want to.
I would board out -2 Forked Bolt. Bring in +2 REBQuote:
Originally Posted by JJ-JKidd
Your opponent cant resolve a humility/planeswalker through daze and pierce when you wasteland and stifle him. Having pressure and snares/rebs for snapcasters is important. 1 Basic land in main for paths might be techy and worth it. I would much rather have it than Taiga unless you have Oozes.
Also Needles are completely idiotic and not worth it.
My observation re: RUG vs. Miracle is that Miracle runs enough early game removal so that even if they get Stifled and/or Wasted, they can just naturally draw into enough land to start casting bombs while RUG is desperately cantripping into a threat. And this isn't taking into account CounterTop, just the basic "kill everything + 4cc bomb" shell.
Needles are really good against them. Shutting down Top stops their ability to play Terminus during your turn besides Brainstorm. Also, Top is one of the main reasons why a tempo deck can loose this match.Quote:
Originally Posted by dsck
Needling a Planeswalker after loosing a counterwar over it -or which slipped through because soft counters often don't do enough against a deck with a healthy amount of basics- solves this problem as well.
I like your list, but isn't stifle something that you want 4 or 0 of?
Force and pierce out all day. Bring in every single creature/submerge/reb in the board. I like stifle in the mirror but it might not be worth it to others. Dismember is insane in the mirror. Loam is also decent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grizzly_Bear
Usually it revolves around ooze/goyf as delvers die left and right or someone getting wasted/stifled out in my experience
A spell which costs 1 is idiotic against UW when it hits the following:?Quote:
Originally Posted by dsck
Senseis
Factory
Elspeth
Jace
And the Wasteland + Stifle strategy to cripple their manabase seems odd (and "idiotic and not worth it" IMHO) for a deck that runs only two colors and is not that light on mana. You also need the Stifles for Terminus I must add, while Wasteland is primarily aimed at Factories.
Re the Stifle count, I wanted it as a 4-of but I would still have to determine which spell would be cut. Either I join the no-Snare bandwagon, which would give me another flex slot, and add another Ponder, Forked Bolt or Spell Pierce or Daze.
if you want to use needle for UW and for other decks, i suggest you make it 3. my question is that for other decks, is it good? against esp maverick? you hit KOTR, Mom, ooze, equipments. for sneaky tell you hit sneak and and grisel.. for esper, sfm and equipments. for rug you hit nothing. for combo storm you also hit none. but i agree if meta is uw and maverick, needle maybe good.
I personally enjoy bolting factories, using pierces/dazes on 4cc spells and let my opponents durdle with sensei's top.Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ-JKidd
If I was UW player and my rug opponent lays needle I would fist pump. Basically mulligan to 6 and you used your turn for nothing, timewalked your opponent I could say.
Last I checked they run 8 fetches and bunch of nonbasics, do you tap out with stifle in your hand? Do you know what the basic idea of this deck is?Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ-JKidd
Terminus is strong, some rug players play more thought scours and pierces now and those help some. 4x Force might be good as well to counter that critical wrath effect. RUG doesnt have that many creatures after all so its hard to keep some as backup in your hand.
Some only play 4 Tundra and 1 Karakas which I wouldnt say is a bunch. Its gut feel sometimes with the deck, in case you dont know. I dont tap out if I have a Stifle and Wasteland in hand on the play. But if I have Delver or Goose and Daze and Stifle on the play, id rather put the early pressure than Stone Rain-ing them.Quote:
Originally Posted by dsck
And did I say that mulligan-ing for Needle is essential? :eek:
I think what dsck is saying is that needle isn't a good tempo card in this MU. In early game, you want to drop a threat/cantrip to it/stifle, and tapping for needle isnt a good idea. There's a good chance that needle will sit in your hand waiting for its turn, and will eventually come into play too late. And later on, if they managed to cast Jace through wasteland/stifle/pierce/daze/fow/reb and are still safe in life, you already lost.
I agree with that. TT shouldn't try to control in this MU, it has to stay a tempo deck. However, there is still one issue to adress in this MU (especially on the draw) : counterbalance which is quite awful when we can't drop enough guys early.
Even if you deploy enough early threats they can wipe the board with Terminus and then land a CB. In my testing the situation came up where I took the UW down to 1-2 life before they stabilized with a Terminus following up with a CB. I just pick up my cards when that happens :)
So if Needle is not the right option against UW, what should be the correct one? In my case, will -2 Needle, +1 Pierce, +1 FoW suffice? Im referring at cases of a resolved Walker ie Elspeth or JTMS because, really, you cannot expect 100% that they will never resolve one. There will still be instances where Pierces and other counters will not suffice.Quote:
Originally Posted by dionykos
Could probably be resolved by tinkering the count of Forked Bolt and Chain Lightning? Like if you have 2 Forked Bolt and 1 Chain Lightning, switching the count to 1 Forked Bolt, 2 Chain Lightning will deal that last point or two of damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by bilb_o
i currently have 3 chain lightning and 0 forked bolt. agree that chain provides more damage can finish opponent better. for plainswalkers try pierce + surgical on them.Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ-JKidd
About the whole p needle stuff etc. I would not board in cards like that(same as surgical),as I agree they are virtual cda and way too situational.. Why bother with those when you have some of the best cards availible against them?Your best cards PB will always be reb,spell pierce and spell snare.