Printable View
They can (and probably should) board out other cards before they move to board out bolts. Some number of ponder, perhaps dismember/fire//ice come to mind. Swarm doesn't necessarily have a good chance of being in play long enough to swing.Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
If you want to play 3C TES Defense grid is very good against them.
As stated in the posts above more often then not Xantid swarm will get removed before it even gets an attack.
If defense grid gets past daze, force, and snare, you were probably already winning that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dia_Bot
Quote:
Originally Posted by loop
Swarm is still good here. The problem Tempo Thresh has is it is very threat light. Any mana they leave open to counter or to burn means they have no clock. Unlike Merfolk, their biggest threat is Tarmogoyf which tends to be 3/4, 4/5 at best. If they are burning your Swarm, they aren't burning you. If they are leaving mana open, they aren't killing you. It's really easy to read and without Vial to help with their mana, it's not as hard as you guys make it sound.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
The most important thing is still, given that they have 7 cards in hand and 2 of them are lands, there are only 5 relevant cards. I'm not even including cantrips here. If they have FOW, only 4 relevant cards. Swarm isn't a catch all, but the match up is generally not terrible.
If they aren't pressuring you, just wait it out. The main deck protection will do the rest..
Swarm simply diversifies your protection suite. Pyroblast is also great against FOW. Their face just turns pale...
Xantid swarm getting bolted is fine? Wait since when? Since when is trading a protection spell for a bolt a good thing? That means they have countermagic for relevant cards. Xantid swarm is awful against thresh in general if the pilot is competent they will leave bolt/dismember/ghastly demise in to kill swarm and board out other cards that are worse. Swarm has only ever been good against merfolk because they can't kill it (except wait now they can if they run dismember)
Waiting it out isn't a factor against thresh. They can be proactive with wasteland and if they have enough lands to play a threat and leave up countermagic you're going to get hit by that goyf/delver/mongoose/repeated lavamancer activations hindering your AdN plan. The MU is far from a cakewalk. And when they stifle your fetchland you're generally going to be hurting really hard for mana.
All of their threats cost 1-2 mana, all their counters cost 0-1. The deck's entire foundation is built on only needing 2 lands. You really don't want swarm bolted, you really don't want them to have mana open and a clock. But often they have delver/goose beating you from turn 3 on while grinning like an idiot with 2-3 ways to slow you down. You'll have to be careful with IGG, take a chance on Ad naus, or go tokens.Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
What do you take out for Swarms/pyroblasts anyway? Chant is actually the nut high agaisnt these type of decks, it should be all you need.
I can assure you that tempo treshhold, especially the black version, is one of the hardest match-ups you will face.
defense grid is the worst option since they mostly have to many answers for that. (spell pierce, snare, daze, fow.)
also TT will try to deny you your lands.
Chants and xantids are by far the best option. Swarm only has 1 working counter, force, because you will try to play around daze. Xantid wins nearly instantly since a lot of players will board out removal.
remember that they can still stifle the effect (but still will give you enough time to try and win)
Yes, it is ok. I don't know how else to explain it to you. It's not really about what swarm does, it's about what it can do. If it sticks, you win. I'm not saying they'll board out burn, but if they burn our swarm, it means they hve less countermagic, less threats or less blue to pitch to force of will.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
If you've seen a tempo thresh list, they don't have many slots to move around, so if they board in 3-4 spell pierce, they'll have to take out threats, removal, or countermagic.
Chances of them taking out threats is the highest. So I think tempo thresh give you a lot of time to strip their hand and set up. Wastelands won't kill you. Chill out...
Infernal tutor, chrome mox, ponder, something random (like duress, tendrils, or brainstorm)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
Delver and goose are the problem. They are stronger against us than goyf
So I played TES at an event for the first time on Saturday at Jupiter, and felt like doing a mini-report:
I ran the stock list from the primer, -1 Past in Flames + Igg in the board.
Round 1: Snapcaster BUG (Win 2-1)
Game 1: I mulligan a hand of lands and chrome moxen into a solid 6 that potentially wins turn 2 with Chant back-up. My opponent lays lands turn 1 and 2, on my turn 2 I Chant him and he Forces pitching Spell Snare with another blue mana up. I'm cold to a second Spell Snare which I assume he has so I'm forced to pass the turn. Fingers crossed he doesn't find a Hymn or a Thoughtseize. He simply draws and says go. I have the second Chant effect that resolves past his Spell Snare and kill him with Ad Nauseam.
Game 2: I feel pretty lucky to have come away with the game 1 win and expect this to be a bit more difficult, knowing the deck plays Discard, Counters and Wastes. I have to mulligan again and keep an OK hand with Duress and Wish/Tutor but Ponder really needs to find some mana. I'm unfortunately too slow and get blown out by a top-decked Hymn to Tourach followed up with double Wasteland.
Game 3: We both mulligan, from his grimace and near mulligan to five I put him on a disruption heavy hand but no Force. Lucky me I get to go first, and naturally my six is Land, D.Rit x2, Ad Nauseam. I run it out there turn 1 for the Win. He drops his hand after the match, 2x Land, Thoughtseize, Hymn, Spell Snare, Snapcaster.
1-0
Round 2: Gwu Elves (Win 2-1)
Game 1: I feel a little bad already knowing what he's playing, I open a fair hand that doesn't have protection but does have some cantrips. He wins the roll and drops an elf. I start with Underground Sea pass. On his turn 2 he's up to 4 or so elves, and his EOT I Brainstorm, get the nuts, untap and kill him with Ill-Gotten Gains.
Game 2: I have another turn 2 win opener plus Chant. His turn 1 is Basic Forest->Pass turn and I should have known I was in trouble. On his turn 2 upkeep I Chant him so he can't drop Teeg/Canonist. He lays a fetchland and passes. I go off on my turn 2, Crack my LED in response to my Burning Wish. He stops me with BW on the stack and fetches his 1-of Tropical Island and casts Envelop! I'm left with no cards and pass the turn, he untaps, lays another land and GSZ's for Teeg. I pick it up shortly thereafter.
Game 3: My seven is bonkers, and I kill him with Ad Nauseam before he gets a turn.
2-0
Round 3: UW Snaps/Stoneforge (Lose 1-2) (He Top 8's)
Game 1: I keep a hand that is a little slow but has Duress and Ponder/Brainstorm. I Duress him on my turn 1 and see FoW/Counterspell/Snapcaster/Blanks. I take the Counterspell. I ponder turn 2 and find some mana. I Brainstorm on my turn 3, finding a Chant and another Land, and I'm pretty sure I can go off for around 14 Goblins or so. I put 2 cards back, lay my Land and Chant him, he says "Sure." Alas, I had forgotten that that Brainstorm had cost me a mana... oops. I realize I can't go off, and embarassingly pass the turn with him still having FoW. I never find another protection spell, and eventually SFM/Batterskull show up to ruin my fun. If I had just waited a turn I would have been fine.
Game 2: I open a turn 1 Goblin Army hand with no protection. I decide to be a baller and go for it. He doesn't have the Force and scoops.
Game 3: I'm forced to Mulligan to five, and keep a hand with Land, Ponder and mana. Ponder finds me another Land and a Tutor, but I have no protection, him having UU up all the time I'm pretty sure I'm not going to resolve anything without finding a Chant or Duress effect. I bide my time but eventually he lands an SFM and Batterskull and I'm shortly out of time. I have to go for it or die, and he stops me with a full grip of counter magic.
Chalk one loss up to inexperience/bad math. Also not FoWing my Chant was totally savage game 1.
2-1
Round 4: UW Snaps/Stoneforge/Spellstutter (Lose 0-2)
Game 1: I have a hand with mana, Tutors and Burning Wishes, I'm confident I need protection to get anywhere. I attempt to Burning wish for Thoughtseize two turns in a row, but he has double Spell Snare. Then Clique shows up to ruin me some more. A couple turns later I'm forced to try and go off. Spellstutter Sprite stops me cold.
Game 2: I mulligan and he snap keeps representing FoW. I have some protection but the hand is slow. I probably should have mulliganed again but didn't want to go to 5 for the second time, lesson learned. He lands SFM + Batterskull + Sword of Feast and Famine... ugh. I Chant him with the Kicker on his upkeep, and he Forces it. Discard + Lifegain ends me fast.
2-2 -> Drop.
Despite the disappointing end to my tournament I felt pretty good rounds 1-3. Good enough that I think I'm going to stick with the deck for a while. The power of the deck is nuts, and the turn 1 gambling wins were by far the most fun I've had playing competitive magic in a while.
Against the blue decks I sided -1 Infernal Tutor, -1 Chrome Mox, -1 Ponder for +3 Pyroblast.
Against the Elf deck I think I did -1 Mox, -2 Duress, -1 Ponder for + 2 Echoing Truth, +1 Wipe Away , and +1 Deathmark.
Not sure if these were correct or not?
From my point of view you're not forced to bring in Pyroblast against everything that's blue.... Most of the time I board them against Counterbalance.. and Merfolk. maybe I'm totally wrong doing this... ;)
Played at a 104 people tournament yesterday.The field was a jungle but with LOTS of TES/Goblins/Merfolks/Uw.
I finished at 4° doing 6-1.I did not take notes or remember very well the games but I will post a report here just because many games were soo much fun.
Round1 - UW Stoneblade(with spellshutter/Counterspells/Snapcasters)
Game1-Mull to 5, get my duress countered by spellshutter then he wastes me , clique , fow, counterspell.. nice hand champs..
Game2-I strip his hand with duress(taking fow), then take another one and see Snare..he plays Meddling Mage(for LED).. I wait with mana,2 chants but never find bussiness with my brainstorm and finally he plays SoFF and hit me 4 times..
0-2
Round2-Teammate with GW taxes
He says that I can't win if I did not grapeshot him.
Game1- I adn t2/t3 , play tendrils for 18, adn again, brainstorm/ponder(leaving 3 gemstone mines in my library) and grapeshot for him 36.
Game2- He "curses me" and I mull to 5 with no lands.. he plays mother, canonist, Stone forge, SoFI, while I lost my 2 first landdrops, pyroclasm his board but died to canonist + SoFI because I could no find a bounce or have more turn/land to BW->Shattering Spree to gain time.
Game3-T2 Adn..he says that I can't do more than 36 storms..I fail.. misscalculate the mana and grapeshot him for 36 again..what a shame.
2-1
Round3-GW Elves..
Game1 and Game2- Adn him on T2/T3 both games.He is a nice guy so I did no grapeshot him.
2-0
Round4- Reanimator
Game1-He duress me twice then fow then Gintaxias..oh shit.
Game2-I duress him and he duress me for a couple of turns, he can't find a reanimation target and I can't find one protec..when I find a chant he is dead to Adn.
Game3-I open with land, petal , xantid.. resolves.. I untap a then grapeshot him for 21.
2-1
Round5- Enchantress.
Game1-My opp opens with forest, I duress him taking starling grove, he plays land, ench, then moat and I kill him on my T3.
Game2-He mulls to 3.. opens with leyline.. I play land, go, land , mox go, EOT ritual , Adn, untap, bounce leyline , duress him(to see if he has MD Trap), when storm count reachs 18 he ask "Do you have LED and IT?" I say "Yes", and he scoops before Grapeshot.
2-0
Round 6- Goblins
Game1- He opens with mountain lackey.. hit me twice but I iggy loop him on my t3.
Game2- He gos lackey..waste,waste,port,port and I could not find my second manasource to combo off.
Game3- I land ponder and he plays mountain go..strange..I duress him and see only goblins..He draws and go.. I play land go, he plays Torn of Ametisty , I bounce and combo off next turn.
2-1
Round7- Elfball(which was the only 6-0..)
Game1- He plays elf.. elf...and setup a table to combo me on his T3.. I brainstorm EOT(hide Adn and Rite) and LED, petal , BW-> Pyroclasm.He is left with 1 card in hand..I draw go for 2 turns while he ramp up elves.. so I have Petal, 2x land on table + Adn and rite in my hand.I draw and find.. chrome mox.. ok.. just need one more draw to win..then he plays regal force.. ALOT of elves... find the elf to break my lotus petal and pass.. I'm with 13 life but draw a land.. shit 1 mana short for Adn...
Game2-On my Turn 2 I DR with land drop and UUBR floating.. I ToA him with my new hand of LED LED LED , BS(found BW and Rite) and lands.
Game3-I keep a ALL GAS hand with 2 lands..he plays elf go, I draw Dritual play mox and duress him(take zenith) + land go, he plays out all his cards, I draw mox and play land, he bash me for 14,I draw IT make some calculations and pass, he bash me to 8 and play a land.. I draw DarkRitual and think..think..(I could hear my friend at background saying I'm a jerk and that I would do that cause I'm thinking too much).. and pass because I would go to 1 next atack and the win would be much more fun..he draws.. bash me to 1 and pass wishing for my handshake.I draw(8 cards now) then play out my petal/led/ritual and ToA him for 14, them I Infernal Tutor -> BW(with RRRR floating), he asks me "Pyroclams??", I answer "No".. and show him the Grapeshot!!
2-1
I finished in 4°(1° to 4° was 6-1) and took home some boosters and a shockland RB to my Nicol Bolas EDH.
It was a nice travel and good stories.. wish you guys liked it.
Cya.
Is there anywhere that has a decent database of TES video coverage? I can't seem to find any but something tells me GG's Jupiter or scg should have this from feature matches.
You can see several matches in the SCG coverage of the Nashville open. Not to mention the extensive list of resources Mr. Cook has put together in the opening posts, you should check out the first 3 posts to this thread before asking any other questions.
Wasteland does hurt this deck though. If they open with double wasteland + countermagic they are quite hard to beat (all our lands are nonbasics so have fun against 4 strip mines). Or they could open on wasteland + stifle and landscrew us. Tempo thresh is something you don't want to face but if you do don't board swarm or pyroblast for that matter.
Believe it or not the MD protection configuration is the best possible protection package against tempo thresh. Orim's chant > xantid swarm and duress is valuable because it grants information while taking their best counter.
Pyroblast is really only good against merfolk (kills their dudes as well as countermagic), high tide, and counterbalance. And dredge as well since it hits their draw spells so you can race them despite cabal therapy.
The all non-basic mana base does mean it takes more skill to play around wastelands, but the fetchlands and artifact mana really shine here. No one is forcing you to fetch into stifles. You can play around that. It takes a little patience to get used to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
I agree that the main deck protection is sufficient. Xantid Swarm just diversifies and adds to that. No one said to board out chants. I think I would board out a single Duress because if I don't, there is simply too much safety to play with. I hate having a hand full of safety and the opponent has only one relevant spell. In other words, there is no point in being overly prepared. Not everyone respects the storm.
The Pyroblast is where we disagree on. I think a lot of times, Pyroblast is comparable with Hymn to Tourach. When you throw out your safety which is met by an FOW, your Pyroblast hits it, which means you are taking out 3 cards with 2. Pyroblast is by far one of my favourite and most boarded in cards.
The all non-basic mana base does mean it takes more skill to play around wastelands, but the fetchlands and artifact mana really shine here. No one is forcing you to fetch into stifles. You can play around that. It takes a little patience to get used to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
I agree that the main deck protection is sufficient. Xantid Swarm just diversifies and adds to that. No one said to board out chants. I think I would board out a single Duress because if I don't, there is simply too much safety to play with. I hate having a hand full of safety and the opponent has only one relevant spell. In other words, there is no point in being overly prepared. Not everyone respects the storm.
The Pyroblast is where we disagree on. I think a lot of times, Pyroblast is comparable with Hymn to Tourach. When you throw out your safety which is met by an FOW, your Pyroblast hits it, which means you are taking out 3 cards with 2. Pyroblast is by far one of my favourite and most boarded in cards.
And pyroblast is better than orim's chant how? Both have the same outcome. You orim's chant them they HAVE to FoW it pitching a card. While with pyroblast you have to wait for them to cast FoW on something in the chain to counter it and that something is usually infernal tutor with some number of cards in hand that you have to break LED in response to otherwise you tutor up some card you already have. The reason pyroblast is acceptable is because it helps against countertop and high tide where high tide plays only blue cards and against counterbalance it counters the most annoying card in magic (counterbalance). Same philosophy for high tide applies to merfolk. It hits every card they have sans vial.
8 protection spells against thresh is enough and the MD ones are sufficient and on top of that they are better against them than swarm and pyroblast are since they are proactive and chant is the best weapon against thresh since they must counter it. Swarm is good ONLY if they lack removal; the instant swarm gets removed by something other than FoW is the instant it becomes a pile of crap.
It's hard to play protection spells without lands; without protection spells you're going to find it nigh impossible to beat tempo thresh. They can stifle chrome's imprint trigger and that is what a savvy player will do most of the time since mana denial is part of their gameplan if you refuse to crack your fetch it might as well be nonexistant; you'll have to crack it eventually.
Where are you getting the idea that I'm saying anything is better than Orim's Chant? I'm not denying that Orim's Chant is strong against Threshold.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
All I'm saying is diversified protection helps. In the end, Stifle is a very conditional counterspell which you can learn to play around. They only play 4 Stifles, they can't stifle everything you have. If they Stifle mox, I'm really ok with that. Often, if they are packing that heavy of a counter hand, you can always draw countermagic with your mana to cast a nice small storm for ETW or TOA and then finish them off later. These people rarely counter Rite of Flame, so you'll have enough mana to ETW.
It's not hard to draw countermagic. I find decks with Hymn to Tourach much harder to fight.
Maybe I'm playing against incompetent Tempo Thresh players, but honestly, unless they get a really good opening 7 and then draw really well against you; while you have to keep a pretty land light hand, it will be as hard as you described..
I keep pretty slow hands against blue decks, so.... .
My argument is that pyroblast and swarm are weaker against tempo thresh than our other protection spells. Which is true just ask Cook and he'll say the same.
With EtW a savvy canadian thresh player could realistically board in pyroclasm to just wreck you. Or firespout or any sweeper for that matter. And, again, they could just stifle EtW itself. Stifle is hardly bad against this deck; in fact it's one of the best cards against TES. Playing around it means not using any activated or triggered abilities, which is impossible against thresh. The only way to play around it is to have chant resolve and at that point you won anyways unless they called your bluff.
I wouldn't know what he'd say. I don't know him personally. The thing about Stifle that makes it different from FOW is that people are very willing to use it, and they'll use it at any chance they get, much like Spell Snare and Mental Misstep. Therefore, it would stand that given the chance, they'll cast it. If you suspect a Stifle on their side, you can simply fetch out and see if they are holding one. If not, then your ETW is fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
Pyroclasm in Tempo Thresh? I haven't seen that one in a while. Anyhow, they would have to be overly prepared to play with cards like Firespout/Pyroclasm against TES. In which case, maybe you should pack 2x Silence in your SB for that deadly match up. Just my two cents.