Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Qweerios
Is there a way to merge Stoneforge with CounterTop and Miracles? It seems like it would mix in just well with the CB curve (lacks heavily in 2s), Clique, and help with troublesome matchups.
This has been tried with varying degrees of success. See older SCG lists, and further back in the thread.
I had two main problems with Stoneforge.
First, Batterskull is a five turn clock, possibly more if you've used a lot of StPs. This leaves a lot of time for them to deal with it.
Second, I found that a lot of the times, I didn't want to cast my Stoneforge for fear of shuffling away the top of my deck, which had been stacked just perfectly to counter just about everything. This may just be my personal fear of abandoning / weakening my control on the game in favor of going for the throat.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ThoSha
Hi guys!
Been tinkering with UW Miracles for a while now, testing with Joe's list, Alex' list and R. Levy's.
My decision went to Levy's UW Ponderlist in the end, because it feels really consistent even without having a Top out and saving the Brainstorms for better value than searching lands.
I made a few tweaks on his list, going +1 CB +3 Geist of Saint Traft, -3 Snapcaster Mage -1 Elspeth for better results.
At first it felt strange to add "Aggro" Geist in this deck with watching out not to terminate him too, but if you get better with the list it doesn't really matter. He is a bomb with Jace and/or Elspeth, or a few Stp, not to mention on an empty board after you Terminus'd in their turn. You can also bounce him with Karakas, then Terminus, then play him again in your turn. Pretty nice in testing.
The funny thing I figured out is not that we need to add another "I WIN" button with Geist, but rather turning the game around at some point WAAAY earlier. Not being the punching ball like usual miracles.
Being the beatdown puts your opponent in a defensive position because of his annoying hexproof ability. If you opt to play him on turn 3, he will at least be a Psionic Blast that puts your opponent on defense for at least 1 turn, gaining you time you need to build up for finishing with better bombs. With him being on the attack at least once, you need to make 1 Angel token less in the late game to win, which turned out to be relevant. For all of you complaining about the Goblin Matchup, it gets better with Geist. At least 50/50. Tested a lot against it without having Humily or Moat in my board and feel good about it.
I didn't go trough the whole thread, sorry for that, but did anyone test him already in UW Miracles and dismissed him?
So you want to tap out in a control deck to play a 2/2 that is probably not going to hold the board at all and it's also shitty against combo decks in a Miracle configuration that's already shitty against combo because of the lack of Counterbalance.
The only times when you will manage to ride a Geist to victory it will be because of a pre-emtpive Terminus. If you believe that Geist puts a clock on his own in Miracle, it will take whichever 2 dorks for Jund/BUG/Threshold/Goblin to force you to blow your own Geist with a mass sweeper because otherwise you would lose to an unfavorable board.
Snapcaster is an equivalent of p/t, with the little difference that it has flash, recycles Brainstorm (y'know, that white clunk that stinks in your hand since t1 called Miracle spells..), allows you to stay open to Top. This deck needs to control the board and gain incremental advantage over resources, not to ride a pseudo-aggro creature to victory with any structure whatsoever (no burn spells, no mana denial, no Sword of X and Y) to support it.
Sigh, this topic is hopeless.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I already moved away from the idea. Seemed cute, but really got me nowhere today in my local.
Moving away from Levy's list, the manabase was frightening. I was building the deck to have a fair shot at RUG, and not get stifled out of the game(on turn 4, by simply not having Spell Pierce in the 75).
And like you mentioned, the combo matchup is horrible. Snapcaster wouldn't be enough here either, as he can never make up for MD Counterbalance. Got crushed by ANT twice.
I would have loved to simply play 3 Snapcasters, but the non-bo with RIP is horrific in my eyes. There are so many decks right now where you simply want to RIP their faces postboard.
The list just makes no sense in reality. No control and no real beatdown. Just sweepers. Resolving Entreat 1> is unlikely against anything packing cheap counters. Screw this.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ThoSha
I already moved away from the idea. Seemed cute, but really got me nowhere today in my local.
Moving away from Levy's list, the manabase was frightening. I was building the deck to have a fair shot at RUG, and not get stifled out of the game(on turn 4, by simply not having Spell Pierce in the 75).
And like you mentioned, the combo matchup is horrible. Snapcaster wouldn't be enough here either, as he can never make up for MD Counterbalance. Got crushed by ANT twice.
I would have loved to simply play 3 Snapcasters, but the non-bo with RIP is horrific in my eyes. There are so many decks right now where you simply want to RIP their faces postboard.
The list just makes no sense in reality. No control and no real beatdown. Just sweepers. Resolving Entreat 1> is unlikely against anything packing cheap counters. Screw this.
My list has been very good against RUG and ANT. Give it a try if you're interested.
-Matt
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sdematt
My list has been very good against RUG and ANT. Give it a try if you're interested.
-Matt
Your list is the one without Jace, TMS, correct? I can totally see why you would choose not to run them in those Match Ups, but not even in the SB?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Thanks matt, i'll give it a go.
Jace+Elspeth felt clunky in my meta anyway.
Edit: Nvm, your list contains 57 cards, so the missing 3 are Jace obviously.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
What do you guys think about Preordain over Ponder as the replacement for land #23?
//Lands
5 Island
2 Plains
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
1 Tundra
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas
//Creatures/Planeswalkers
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Snapcaster Mage
//Spells
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
4 Sensei's Divining Top
//Sideboard
1 Batterskull
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Flusterstorm
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Misdirection
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Wear // Tear
1 Pithing Needle
2 Rest in Peace
1 Enlightened Tutor
I started out with a Enlightened Tutor maindeck over the fourth Counterbalance. Then, I decided after testing that the biggest problem with this deck is being grinded out by these tempo decks and going into top-deck mode. I play Control in every other format, and this is the only Control deck where you use strictly card filtering over card drawing. That leads to these awkward midgames where you inevitably get Brainstorm/Top locked with no more Fetchlands to shuffle with. At that point it seems like the majority of draws are just plain bad. Brainstorm is bad. Top is bad. Spell Pierce is dead. Force of Will may or may not be hard-castable, etc. I tried to solve this at first with Standstill as a 1-of to drop early and force Tempo decks to either let the game drag further, which favors you with your Tops and fetchlands, or crack the Standstill and give you three cards. This worked in several games, but seemed too high-variance. Now, I'm thinking that Ponder or Preordain will help with that, and the Tutor is in the sideboard. As I figure it, Preordain is going to be better than Ponder, since in most scenarios you have 1 card that you do want, and 2 useless ones that need to be sent to the bottom. With Ponder, you dig a card deeper, but for the most part this filler is there to help out when you already see 3 cards deep. In that scenario, Ponder seems a worse Preordain, unless you don't want any of the three cards on top. I also like being able to draw and eventually brainstorm back the proper CMC card for Counterbalance, or the miracle that you've been floating on top of your deck, while getting rid of 2 dead draws that you place above it with Top. Maybe this is going about it the wrong way, though.
With the Enlightened Tutor in the sideboard, perhaps the Snapcaster should be a fourth Counterbalance? That just seems like an awful card to have 4-of, since it's a pretty poor card unless you have top in play, and the multiples are particularly terrible when you don't. The Snapcaster came in when I was looking for another 2 CMC card, and with the addition of Preordain, I actually have 14 solid targets. It should also be relevant against these tempo decks, the same way I've seen Venser doing work for Joe in his videos. I don't think I can bring myself to run Venser maindeck, but we'll see after I get some games in with him.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
With 10 fetchlands and some number of Enlightened Tutors, you shouldn't be that desperate for shuffles. Ponder is alright, but it is much better than Preordain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cipher
That just seems like an awful card to have 4-of, since it's a pretty poor card unless you have top in play, and the multiples are particularly terrible when you don't.
Besides the obvious of multiple Counterbalance giving redundancy against Abrupt Decay, you can also use double Counterbalance with a shuffle effect to get multiple blind flips. Also, even with only one Counterbalance + a shuffle, you can peek at the top of your deck every time they cast a spell (even uncounterable ones like Abrupt Decay) and decide if you want to draw that card or shuffle.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I'm not sure how I feel about using Enlightened Tutor in this deck. On one hand, I like being able to fetch pieces of RiP + Field/Helm more easily and using it for other techy stuff (like putting a artifact/enchantment on top to counter a spell with Counterbalance). On the other hand, I don't like the card disadvantage and the fact that sometimes the shuffle might not play nice with keeping a Miracle in the top three cards. What are your thoughts on E. Tutor? Personal preference, core card?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
I'm not sure how I feel about using
Enlightened Tutor in this deck. On one hand, I like being able to fetch pieces of RiP + Field/Helm more easily and using it for other techy stuff (like putting a artifact/enchantment on top to counter a spell with Counterbalance). On the other hand, I don't like the card disadvantage and the fact that sometimes the shuffle might not play nice with keeping a Miracle in the top three cards. What are your thoughts on E. Tutor? Personal preference, core card?
I personally love playing with Enlightened Tutor since it helps me keep more hands and offers redundancy. I've done lots of Counterbalance flips with ET. At the same time, I've also had the problem with shuffling away cards I need for another artifact/enchantment that I need. I think while Enlightened Tutor is nice (especially for sideboards with a healthy array of enchantment and artifact based hate), it's not necessary and it's up to the individual player. For the record, I play RiP/Helm.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ThoSha
Thanks matt, i'll give it a go.
Jace+Elspeth felt clunky in my meta anyway.
Edit: Nvm, your list contains 57 cards, so the missing 3 are Jace obviously.
Yeah, I was just super sleepy writing that list. Full one is:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Karakas
5 Island
2 Plains
3 Counterbalance
4 Top
1 Rest in Peace
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Jace
1 Elspeth
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will
1 counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Entreat the Angels
----
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Blood Moon
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Rest in Peace
1 Pyroclasm
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
The Jaces and such can be clunky, it just depends on the matchup. I do end up pitching Jaces to Forces quite often in certain matchups were there were worse cards t board out and Jace stayed in BECAUSE it pitched to FoW.
Against ANT, I'm on the:
+3 REB, +2 Cannonist, +4 Leyline of Sanctity, +1 Rest in Peace
-3 Terminus, -1 Supreme Verdict, -4 STP, -1 Oblivion Ring, -1 Jace TMS
REB helps hit either Cantrips or Chain of Vapour for your lockpieces. Cannonist and Leyline are obvious. Rest in Peace stops the Past in Flames kill/tunes down Cabal Ritual. All the creature removal is atrocious, and Jace is slow. I'd want to keep mana up all the time at turns 4-6 once there's been an initial disruption, not tap out and play Jace.
Against Omni:
+3 REB, +2 Cannonist, +4 Leyline of Sanctity, +1 Venser
-3 Terminus, -1 Supreme Verdict, -4 STP, -1 Engineered Explosives, -1 Rest in Peace
REB counters Omni/all their spells. Cannonist is cool beans for the Show and Tell, as are Leyline and Venser, or even before it all lands on the table. Removal is atrocious once again, and the Rest in Peace/EE don't matter here.
-Matt
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
sdematt
Yeah, I was just super sleepy writing that list. Full one is:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Karakas
5 Island
2 Plains
3 Counterbalance
4 Top
1 Rest in Peace
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Oblivion Ring
3 Jace
1 Elspeth
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will
1 counterspell
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Entreat the Angels
----
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Blood Moon
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Rest in Peace
1 Pyroclasm
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
The Jaces and such can be clunky, it just depends on the matchup. I do end up pitching Jaces to Forces quite often in certain matchups were there were worse cards t board out and Jace stayed in BECAUSE it pitched to FoW.
Against ANT, I'm on the:
+3 REB, +2 Cannonist, +4 Leyline of Sanctity, +1 Rest in Peace
-3 Terminus, -1 Supreme Verdict, -4 STP, -1 Oblivion Ring, -1 Jace TMS
REB helps hit either Cantrips or Chain of Vapour for your lockpieces. Cannonist and Leyline are obvious. Rest in Peace stops the Past in Flames kill/tunes down Cabal Ritual. All the creature removal is atrocious, and Jace is slow. I'd want to keep mana up all the time at turns 4-6 once there's been an initial disruption, not tap out and play Jace.
Against Omni:
+3 REB, +2 Cannonist, +4 Leyline of Sanctity, +1 Venser
-3 Terminus, -1 Supreme Verdict, -4 STP, -1 Engineered Explosives, -1 Rest in Peace
REB counters Omni/all their spells. Cannonist is cool beans for the Show and Tell, as are Leyline and Venser, or even before it all lands on the table. Removal is atrocious once again, and the Rest in Peace/EE don't matter here.
-Matt
A few questions for you:
What's the reasoning behind the low number of counterspells? I get that Counterspells aren't as useful as they were, but I've been happy since forever with 2 Spell Pierce 2 Counterspell// 3 Spell Pierce 2 Counterspell, in addition to Force.
I notice that you're on the low side of blue cards. I'm counting 19 MD, do you ever find yourself with no pitch fodder for Force of Will? I was going to suggest Moat in favor of Supreme Verdict, but I'm not sure you can afford going down to 18 blue cards.
Are the 2 E. Tutor really worth it? You do not have so many targets as, say, RIP Miracles, so maybe you could go -1 tutor +1 blue card?
How's Leyline in the side? I'm not a fan of high variance cards, but could see myself including it.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
I'm not sure how I feel about using
Enlightened Tutor in this deck. On one hand, I like being able to fetch pieces of RiP + Field/Helm more easily and using it for other techy stuff (like putting a artifact/enchantment on top to counter a spell with Counterbalance). On the other hand, I don't like the card disadvantage and the fact that sometimes the shuffle might not play nice with keeping a Miracle in the top three cards. What are your thoughts on E. Tutor? Personal preference, core card?
Tutor in the main is pretty much an auto-include if you're running the RIP-Helm version of miracles. If you're not, then I think it is a really strong sideboard card, but would not play it in the main. While it has its uses, I don't think that there are powerful enough enchantments or artifacts in the main deck to warrant the card disadvantage. However, in the sideboard you can use it to amplify your hate cards for particular matchups. For a simple example, if you had a setup of 2 Enlightened Tutor, 2 Ethersworn Canonist, 2 Rest in Peace you'd effectively be playing 4 really powerful hate cards against Storm and graveyard strategies for only 6 sideboard spaces. There is obviously a lot more you can do, but I've always found tutor to artificially expand the size of my sideboard and for this I really think it is worthwhile.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Valtrix
Tutor in the main is pretty much an auto-include if you're running the RIP-Helm version of miracles.
I guess my next question is: why wouldn't you play Rip/Helm?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
I guess my next question is: why wouldn't you play Rip/Helm?
Joe/oarsman promoted his legend-angel version a lot, and he has explained why legend-angel version is better than rip-helm on his stream, post M14 rule change.
In a combo-infested meta, RiP has very little interaction with Show and Tell variants, maybe minimal interaction with High Tide. However, MD RiP poses even more threats for RUG Delver. You can throw all 3 CB and 3 RiP at Delvers, Delver players can't counter all of them.
sdematt's version is pretty much Joe/oarsman's legend-angel version, but -3 spell pierce -1 misdirection +2 E.T. +1 Elspeth +1 EE.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Joe/oarsman promoted his legend-angel version a lot, and he has explained why legend-angel version is better than rip-helm on his stream, post M14 rule change.
In a combo-infested meta, RiP has very little interaction with Show and Tell variants, maybe minimal interaction with High Tide. However, MD RiP poses even more threats for RUG Delver. You can throw all 3 CB and 3 RiP at Delvers, Delver players can't counter all of them.
sdematt's version is pretty much Joe/oarsman's legend-angel version, but -3 spell pierce -1 misdirection +2 E.T. +1 Elspeth +1 EE.
The Legends version is probably a lot better suited for the mirror than the RiP-Helm version, but the RiP-Helm version has more game against RUG/Reanimator/Dredge while RiP helps against Deathrite Shaman/Snapcaster Mage decks (though I don't know if it makes it better than legends...). It also has the win condition in Helm that wins games out of nowhere.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I think Leyline is a nice consideration against ANT/Shardless BUG/Jund, but I dont see any relevant reason why you should board it against Omnitell.
Isn't Gitaxian Probe the only target it prevents? Maybe I've overlooked something, but its a monoblue deck in my meta at least.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
I think Leyline is a nice consideration against ANT/Shardless BUG/Jund, but I dont see any relevant reason why you should board it against Omnitell.
Isn't Gitaxian Probe the only target it prevents? Maybe I've overlooked something, but its a monoblue deck in my meta at least.
Intuition requires them to chose an opponent to separate the cards. Since you cannot be a target, Intuition is shut down, so their tutoring power goes down.
It also stops Release the Ants, but at that point they will probably be able to just Wish for Wipe Away or something.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Treefolk Master
How's Leyline in the side? I'm not a fan of high variance cards, but could see myself including it.
It's not as high variance as it seems since we are able to cast it so easily. I won a game (and match) last Saturday because I was able to Brainstorm into a Leyline the turn before my opponent's Liliana could ultimate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SageShadows
The Legends version is probably a lot better suited for the mirror than the RiP-Helm version, but the RiP-Helm version has more game against RUG/Reanimator/Dredge while RiP helps against Deathrite Shaman/Snapcaster Mage decks (though I don't know if it makes it better than legends...). It also has the win condition in Helm that wins games out of nowhere.
Sure RIP is a bit more clunky against the mirror main deck, but post boarding both decks will probably be within 2-3 cards of each other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ThoSha
I think Leyline is a nice consideration against ANT/Shardless BUG/Jund, but I dont see any relevant reason why you should board it against Omnitell.
Isn't Gitaxian Probe the only target it prevents? Maybe I've overlooked something, but its a monoblue deck in my meta at least.
The Omniscience lists are sort of split into two camps at the moment... mono-Blue with Leylines and Defense Grids in the SB and splash-Black (cutting some Leylines or Grids) for Thoughtseize. I'm not sure I'd board in Leylines against mono-Blue Omniscience, but it's so borderline that it becomes a shoe-in against the Black splash.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Treefolk Master
Intuition requires them to chose an opponent to separate the cards. Since you cannot be a target, Intuition is shut down, so their tutoring power goes down.
It also stops Release the Ants, but at that point they will probably be able to just Wish for Wipe Away or something.
I actually never thought about it hitting Intuition, that's really cool. Like you said, if they combo off, then most likely they will be able to bounce your Leyline, but hitting Intuition makes it even stronger than I thought. There's also always the possibility that you have multiple Leylines or a Counterbalance on 3, which greatly complicates them being able to bounce and win.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
The Leylines are there to make it harder for them, that's all. It's BETTER against Jund (which was giving me fits before), traditional ANT, and Painter (which is in my meta now that Recruiter is no longer $300...).
I've liked the E. Tutors quite a bit. Even though it doesn't seem like it does a lot, and since it does lower my counterspell count, you would think it's quite atrocious. However, in the matchups where it matters, being able to fetch Top or Counterbalance, EE, Rest in Peace, or Oblivion Ring can be a big deal.
I'm not saying I don't miss the counterspells, because I do, but it lets you have a bit more variability in your answers maindeck, as opposed to having them ALL in the sideboard.
-Matt
