[Deck] Armageddon Stax

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Originally Posted by frogger42

if you run Crucible, why don't you run Fetchlands? In place of, or in addition to Flagstones? It's MUCH more synergistic with Crucible.

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Simply saying it's true doesn't mean it's true. Here are some thoughts on why Flagstones belong in mono-white Geddon Stax, and fetchlands do not.

Fetches can be used to fill the graveyard, as seen in Burn. It can be used to fix mana and reset the topdeck, as seen in Miracles, Delver, etc. But we don't need these effects.

Secondly, fetches would hurt the deck, especially if replacing Flagstones. Fetchland decks are actually among the best prey of Wasteland/Geddon decks. If you run 8 fetches, 4 Wastelands, and 6-8 duals and basics in a typical greedy 3-color manabase, the ability of a Stax deck to force you to three mana sources (Trinisphere) and then blow up 3-4 lands (with Geddon) means they've taken out upwards of half of your deck's capability to produce colored mana. Compare to a deck with 18 basics, where blowing up 4 land still leaves 14 in the deck.

Smokestack is all about counting permanents in play. When you sac a Flagstones to 'stack, you get another permanent to use or sac the next turn. You've effectively broken the symmetry of Smokestack by getting a "free sacrifice." When you sac a fetch, basic or dual, you don't break symmetry because you don't get anything back. In fact, Flagstones along with Crucible is one of the best ways to sustain a 'stack at 2 counters. Fetches can't do that.

You could say that recurring fetches through Crucible can help us empty the deck of land so we only draw gas, but Flagstones can do that and more. Not only can you recur two Flagstones through Crucible to fetch more Plains, you can give them to Smokestack or Geddon to turn what might be considered symmetric cards firmly in our favor.

Lastly, Stax often hurts itself a lot via Ancient Tombs, and stabilizes or wins at under 5 life. Adding fetchlands to that reality would very likely lead to more losses, especially if the intention is to replay them through a Crucible for multiple activations per game.

As I started with, this is all about mono-white Geddon Stax. Given that you run multicolor Stax decks without Geddon, much of the above is not relevant. However, it further goes to show that mono-white Geddon Stax has many internal synergies and reinforcing interactions.

Hope that helps.

Frogger42,

I appreciate the conversation. I, too, like to come up with the information and, if you look at my posts from years ago in this thread, I've tested a lot of things in White Stax (and MUD Stax and Vintage Stax) and am pretty honest (direct) about what works and what doesn't. I'm very interested in what you ran at the GP. I was able to find Top 32 lists, but not Top 64. If you'll willing to share, PM me. I play only on MTGO anymore, so I can jam games and try things whenever...

I didn't mean to question your experience, but I'm hoping you can see my point - Armageddon works in Stax when you plan for it. You may not think it's optimal, but it is such a beating for most decks that it is very playable in the Stax shell. I've been re-reading this thread and the one on MTG Salvation and while the meta has changed a lot since the deck was introduced, there are some interesting things that can still be done.

Continued discussion...

I didn't point out the Nic Fit match to say Armageddon 'could' win, I was trying to explain that against a deck like that it's really your only out. Nothing else in White Stax could have kept up. He didn't care about Trinisphere, he was willing to sit behind my Ghostly Prison and wait until he wanted to Reclamation Sage it, and most of his abilities were triggered, so Suppression Field wasn't even that good. Armageddon plus any another card (lock piece), though, was a loss for him - it had to be a lock piece, though. Your point is well taken, Armageddon is a powerful card, especially against a ramp deck without counters, but it made that match-up playable.

I would agree with you that Armageddon shines in the Mid-range/Control matches, but I'd probably argue that it (combined with a tax effect) is just as valuable in the Aggro/Tempo match-ups. I think that's one of the reasons that people struggle with the Aggro/Tempo match-ups when piloting Stax and one of the things that catches the Aggro/Tempo pilots off guard - they focus on the wrong 'threats'. Armageddon is a nice threat to have on your side.

I'm not convinced that "you can do better". I think there are certainly different approaches, but I'm not convinced (without at least seeing a suggestion or three) that Armageddon is sub-optimal in this build. As I read and re-read these threads there are a lot of 'falsehoods' in the pages about consistency, understanding match-ups, understanding mulligans, etc. Armageddon helps this deck maintain reasonable match-ups versus most of the top decks.

Sorry if it seemed like I was baiting with the FoW comment, but it's very true. Looking at an individual card sometimes is narrow when evaluating it in the context of the deck. Armageddon won't always act as a 4-for-1 in this deck, but it doesn't need to. As I said, the interactions are 'complicated', not awkward. And, you are right, sometimes, you'll lose to it, but you were going to lose a lot of those games anyhow and it will sometimes give you a fighting shot at coming back...

Inventor's Fair - I'm still not sure it's 'right'. In games where I've activated it, I usually get Bottled Cloister game 1 and Crucible in game 2/3. It's typically win-more when you are actually activating it, so I could see it being just about anything else. The life gain is a nice kick for games where you die to your own Ancient Tomb, but I'm not sure it's necessary.

Fetchlands-Crucible - They are synergistic with Crucible, but fetches won't get Sol lands and fetches don't play nicely with Armageddon. If you drop Armageddon, I could see using fetches.

Darksteel Citadel - I tested this years ago and it really doesn't do anything for you.

Anti-Synergy - I'll probably say this wrong, but I think this is where a lot of people are confused on Stax. It took me a long time to get used to it. Developing your board (Stax player) is secondary to setting your opponent back. You'll have plenty of time to develop your position when your opponent just gets to draw-go with nothing to do. This is much more obvious (and maybe easier to understand) if you look at Vintage Stax lists. Rich Shay has been running a list lately on MTGO with 6 Mana Rocks AND Null Rod. Totally anti-synergistic, but it hinders the opponent worse than it does him. Is it awkward? Not at all. You have to know, understand, and stick to your gameplan - lock out the opponent and then win.

Again, I'd love to see your Wu(b) list because it's sounds very intriguing.

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Originally Posted by frogger42

And let me say another thing - I play to learn. Specifically, I go to my LGS to brew, playtest my jank, and learn something from it. I'm here on these forums to learn, ultimately. And if someone asks, I'll tell them what I've learned.

Even some of the people at my LGS - usually they don't show often - don't understand this mindset. I'd feel bad if I cared, but honestly, their salt does make my victory that more savory.

Fred_Bear - there are obviously a LOT of people on here who come on these forums to argue. And spit and bite and all that stuff. I appreciate you're here not to do that, but to tell me what you've learned. That's how these things work.

Though if you do spit and bite and all that, I'd understand because you are, obviously, some sort of bear. Even the tamest of bears have natural instincts :p
-Frogger

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I, too, play to learn and am also willing to help and describe my experiences. I don't often talk in the abstract (why I recommend testing if you don't believe something I say) and prefer to use actual experience and 'data' from testing. I've spent a lot of time playing Armageddon Stax and could re-hatch the entire experience, but most of it is in this forum (I'm one of the guys with linked posts in the Primer - though I had to make a new account after being away for so long). Hopefully, we can continue a constructive conversation.

Firstly, to kirbysdl - It was a hypothetical. I used both those questions (about fetches / DS Citadel) to help frame what I'm saying here. I didn't really need the questions to be answered, but I wanted to highlight what I'm pointing out about Crucible in a deck, vs Armageddon in a deck.

Also, you can think about it this way - a Crucible deck always wants to be making land drops. It's how it gains board position. (Except when you have to play around Price of Progress - just quick aside.) It wants ALL the lands, yes.

An Armageddon deck only wants to ramp up to 4 mana - any more lands, and it starts losing the asymmetry of its hoser. It doesn't want to over extend into its own Geddon by, say, wiping 5 of its lands. That just doesn't make sense. (Though you may want to guarantee resolving Geddon through a Daze, but that's another quick aside.)

And Fred_Bear - I just pm'ed you a list. That's what I'm talking about. White is full of mega-hosers, and with access to just about anything you want in a hoser... well, Stax is a land-based deck. Why run a land hoser?

Stompy, though, only needs to ramp up to 3-4. It's happy to lose its lands, even symmetrically, because it doesn't particularly lose its board position through a Geddon.


I'm just bringing up all these points because, while I understand the history of Geddon Stax - it's a crazy different field from 10 years ago. No more Landstill (Geddon), Goblins is terribad (Ghostly Prison), Abrupt Decay has been printed for tempo decks (breaking the invincibility of Chalice vs Tempo). And a LOT of newer cards - in particular, Planeswalkers - have been printed since the original Geddon Stax. History aside, I think we should put history aside. People still don't know the difference between Stompy and Stax - which is great, it's an advantage to the player who does. "Ancient Tomb?! This guy's on Stompy" - good, get wrekt by my Humility, you fool.

And Ghostfire - I think you should consider whether you want Geddon or Humility/Moat. Humility is better than Moat; Moat is just clearly pimper. Then build your deck accordingly. All three hosers are amazing with a Sol-land manabase.

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Originally Posted by frogger42

Firstly, to kirbysdl - It was a hypothetical. I used both those questions (about fetches / DS Citadel) to help frame what I'm saying here. I didn't really need the questions to be answered, but I wanted to highlight what I'm pointing out about Crucible in a deck, vs Armageddon in a deck.

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Ok, but I'm not just answering your question. I'm disagreeing with your conclusion. You seem to be saying that fetchlands work better than Flagstones in Stax. At least in the realm of mono-white Geddon Stax, I disagree.

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Originally Posted by frogger42

I'm just bringing up all these points because, while I understand the history of Geddon Stax - it's a crazy different field from 10 years ago.

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It's definitely true that the meta has evolved, and the old Stax lists aren't putting up results anymore. We should put aside ideas that don't work to get to more competitive ideas in the current meta.

Ultimately, I'm mostly taking issue with your apparent belief that Geddon doesn't have, and never should have had, a place in Stax. If you truly understand the history of the deck, I can't see how you'd believe that. Geddon Stax isn't just what people call the deck: it's a sign of the importance and power that Geddon has in this shell. We might just have to agree to disagree on this point though. Anyway.

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

It's definitely true that the meta has evolved, and the old Stax lists aren't putting up results anymore. We should put aside ideas that don't work to get to more competitive ideas in the current meta.

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Well, I'm here now. Let's go brew one. I don't have a mono-White Stax decklist in mind, but if you don't mind, put one up and I'll help brew it with you?
I mean, as much as I appreciate the back and forth, let's get practical and build something here. That's what these forums are about.

I guess the obvious ground rules - attack the deck, not the person, blah blah blah.
-Swap one-for-one on cards, as best as possible. Try to include very brief reasoning on why the swap (or swaps)
-Bonus - try to limit the "this included card is a meta choice" because I feel we could spend all week arguing what the meta is. I think we should build a solid shell first, something more in a vacuum, then worry later about the meta and if the deck is a good choice currently.
-(And obv a no-cash limit, though I think we probably don't need Moat)

Also, don't bother with a SB. My specialty is more in building manabases, but I'll do my best to suggest better spells. SB I think is something you figure in your current meta, anyway.

You want to go for it?

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Originally Posted by frogger42

An Armageddon deck only wants to ramp up to 4 mana - any more lands, and it starts losing the asymmetry of its hoser. It doesn't want to over extend into its own Geddon by, say, wiping 5 of its lands. That just doesn't make sense. (Though you may want to guarantee resolving Geddon through a Daze, but that's another quick aside.)

And Fred_Bear - I just pm'ed you a list. That's what I'm talking about. White is full of mega-hosers, and with access to just about anything you want in a hoser... well, Stax is a land-based deck. Why run a land hoser?

Stompy, though, only needs to ramp up to 3-4. It's happy to lose its lands, even symmetrically, because it doesn't particularly lose its board position through a Geddon.


I'm just bringing up all these points because, while I understand the history of Geddon Stax - it's a crazy different field from 10 years ago. No more Landstill (Geddon), Goblins is terribad (Ghostly Prison), Abrupt Decay has been printed for tempo decks (breaking the invincibility of Chalice vs Tempo). And a LOT of newer cards - in particular, Planeswalkers - have been printed since the original Geddon Stax. History aside, I think we should put history aside. People still don't know the difference between Stompy and Stax - which is great, it's an advantage to the player who does. "Ancient Tomb?! This guy's on Stompy" - good, get wrekt by my Humility, you fool.

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I think this is part of the issue. Armageddon Stax isn't a 'land-based' deck. It's a permanent-based deck, mostly artifacts and enchantments. Just as you pointed out previously, you run a land-hoser to beat other control and mid-range decks who rely on their lands to play. You can win from behind a lock and that may or may not require lands depending on where you are in the game.

And, you are right, the game has changed and the meta has evolved. Where there were once Goblins, there are now Eldrazi and Elves. Where there was once Threshold, there is now Delver and Shardless. Where there was once Landstill, there is now Miracles. I started tinkering again with this deck because I think there are enough similarities that could make it viable with some updates. Plus, it's a deck I enjoy playing...

Ghostfire - here's how I'd rebuild your deck:


2 sanctum prelate - cut
4 Magus of the tabernacle - Elspeth, KE x4

3 Armageddon - Humility x4

4 Ghostly Prison
3 Oblivion Ring - 4 Batterskull
1 sylvan library - cut

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds - +1, for 4x
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack
3 Trinisphere - Cut

2 City of Traitors +2, 4x
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Flagstones of trokair - 3 Fetch instead
1 Ghostly Quarter - Cut
1 Horizon Canopy - Cut
1 Karakas - +2, 3x
4 Mishra's Factory
5 Plains
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell - Cut
3 Wasteland +1

(59 cards, one slot open)

So here's the decklist I'm proposing (mono-W):

4 Elspeth, KE

4 Humility

4 Ghostly Prison
4 Batterskull

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Windswept Heath
3 Karakas
4 Mishra's Factory
5 Plains
4 Wasteland
+ 1 Idyllic Tutor

Some things to note - I'm 4x out a lot of things, because you have no filtering/cantrips/tutoring. Karakas is a necessary evil because of Thalia - she slows everything down in your deck. Idyllic Tutor is miserably bad, but... it fetches Humility. I wouldn't buy it just yet.

I'm going to break this out of mono-W a bit. Do you have access to Savannahs?

4 Elspeth, KE

4 Humility

4 Sylvan Library
4 Batterskull

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Windswept Heath
3 Karakas
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Plains
2 Savannah
4 Wasteland

The biggest problem with Stax is a lack of consistency. Sylvan Library is pretty good here, in that it gives you mondo filtering, plus isn't a mana-sink (unlike SD Top, and Scroll Rack). 4 filtering cards isn't really enough to make your deck consistent, but it's a start. Idyllic Tutor also becomes powerful in this build because you get more shuffle effects with your Sylvan Library. (4 Smokestack -> Idyllic, easy peasy). Ideally, though, you'd have 4x of something else that filters / tutors more generously. It just doesn't exist in White or Green.

Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by frogger42

I'm going to break this out of mono-W a bit. Do you have access to Savannahs?

4 Elspeth, KE

4 Humility

4 Sylvan Library
4 Batterskull

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
4 Smokestack

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Windswept Heath
3 Karakas
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Plains
2 Savannah
4 Wasteland

The biggest problem with Stax is a lack of consistency. Sylvan Library is pretty good here, in that it gives you mondo filtering, plus isn't a mana-sink (unlike SD Top, and Scroll Rack). 4 filtering cards isn't really enough to make your deck consistent, but it's a start. Idyllic Tutor also becomes powerful in this build because you get more shuffle effects with your Sylvan Library. (4 Smokestack -> Idyllic, easy peasy). Ideally, though, you'd have 4x of something else that filters / tutors more generously. It just doesn't exist in White or Green.

Thoughts?

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It seems interesting, but I think you might be a bit slow (Eldrazi and Elves will go pretty fast if you don't 'curve' into Humility fast enough) and prone to mana flood. 32 mana sources is a lot. And, in my opinion, several of the 4-ofs could be reduced without hurting the consistency (especially with Library and Fetches).

3 Elspeth, KE

4 Humility
3 Ghostly Prison (Moat if price is no object)

3 Sylvan Library
2 Batterskull

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Inventors' Fair or Buried Ruin
3 Windswept Heath
2 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Plains
2 Savannah
4 Wasteland

I'd still like to cut another mana source, but I'm not sure which one. I also feel like it needs another 'lock' piece to force board interaction and slow the early-to-mid turns, but I'm not sure without playing a bit.

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Originally Posted by Fred_Bear

It seems interesting, but I think you might be a bit slow (Eldrazi and Elves will go pretty fast if you don't 'curve' into Humility fast enough) and prone to mana flood. 32 mana sources is a lot. And, in my opinion, several of the 4-ofs could be reduced without hurting the consistency (especially with Library and Fetches).

3 Elspeth, KE

4 Humility
3 Ghostly Prison (Moat if price is no object)

3 Sylvan Library
2 Batterskull

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Inventors' Fair or Buried Ruin
3 Windswept Heath
2 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Plains
2 Savannah
4 Wasteland

I'd still like to cut another mana source, but I'm not sure which one. I also feel like it needs another 'lock' piece to force board interaction and slow the early-to-mid turns, but I'm not sure without playing a bit.

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I think 30 - including Mox Diamonds - is as low as you can go. My playstyle with Stax has been - better to manaflood, than be manascrewed. Everything you cast is a haymaker, and even keeping a 6 land hand is fine - you'll be able to cast everything you draw. Keeping a 2-lander is impossible with this deck - unless it's a Sol Land + Fetch + Crucible. You have to keep making land drops the first, at least, five turns.

A few things about your proposed list - Sylvan Library is the only filtering in the whole deck. I would definitely keep it at 4 - Stax has no other way to find anything.
Other than Inventor's Fair. Good catch, there. Playtesting will show if there are enough artis for it to be useful.
Be careful about your colored sources. You have 17 White, which is fine for the WW spells. I jammed too many Horizon Canopies to get enough G for Sylvan - which is tricky, yes. Your list only has 11 G sources - consider that Delver decks run 13-14 U sources for their blue spells (the main engine of their decks). I think we should aim for 13 G sources if we want to splash green. Also, with 13-14 G sources, Choke becomes a hot option in the SB, for later consideration.

I think maybe 2 Canopy, and 2 Stirring Wildwood (which also synergizes with Humility) instead of the 4 Canopies in my list.

And I think Ghostly Prison instead of Moat. Both are fine, but... think of it this way. Humility trashes the big fatties of the format (Gurmag Angler, Tarmogoyf, cheated Griselbrands). But it doesn't deal well with Tokens. Prison deals with tokens, elves, etc.
Also, you need Elspeth to get through your own Moat. Batterskull is kinda your "Moat" on the ground, makes ground attacks generally unprofitable. Just my reasoning there.

Optimally, you'd have 8-10 filtering and tutoring effects. Not sure what else we could run in Wg to make this deck consistent.

(I think 4 Skulls is too much, but Batterskull + Sylvan = Dark Confidant, hahaha...)

Actually, about Idyllic Tutor - it fetches out Filtering, Prison Pieces, and potentially, can it find a legacy-playable finisher? Something like Myth Realized but it has to play better with Chalice, obviously. What are the options for enchantment-based finishers under Humility?

EDIT: Awakening Zone x1?

EDIT 2:
4 Elspeth, KE

4 Humility
4 Sylvan Library
1 Awakening Zone
1 Ghostly Prison

3 Batterskull
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond

4 Idyllic Tutor

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Windswept Heath
3 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Stirring Wildwood
3 Plains
2 Savannah
4 Wasteland

14 finishers - significantly easier not to go to time than the 5 finishers in your list, Fred_Bear. Also, plenty of SB options with WG enchantments to choose from. Good place to start? (Awakening Zone could also be... Opalescence, muahaha...)

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Originally Posted by frogger42

I think 30 - including Mox Diamonds - is as low as you can go. My playstyle with Stax has been - better to manaflood, than be manascrewed. Everything you cast is a haymaker, and even keeping a 6 land hand is fine - you'll be able to cast everything you draw. Keeping a 2-lander is impossible with this deck - unless it's a Sol Land + Fetch + Crucible. You have to keep making land drops the first, at least, five turns.

A few things about your proposed list - Sylvan Library is the only filtering in the whole deck. I would definitely keep it at 4 - Stax has no other way to find anything.
Other than Inventor's Fair. Good catch, there. Playtesting will show if there are enough artis for it to be useful.
Be careful about your colored sources. You have 17 White, which is fine for the WW spells. I jammed too many Horizon Canopies to get enough G for Sylvan - which is tricky, yes. Your list only has 11 G sources - consider that Delver decks run 13-14 U sources for their blue spells (the main engine of their decks). I think we should aim for 13 G sources if we want to splash green. Also, with 13-14 G sources, Choke becomes a hot option in the SB, for later consideration.

I think maybe 2 Canopy, and 2 Stirring Wildwood (which also synergizes with Humility) instead of the 4 Canopies in my list.

And I think Ghostly Prison instead of Moat. Both are fine, but... think of it this way. Humility trashes the big fatties of the format (Gurmag Angler, Tarmogoyf, cheated Griselbrands). But it doesn't deal well with Tokens. Prison deals with tokens, elves, etc.
Also, you need Elspeth to get through your own Moat. Batterskull is kinda your "Moat" on the ground, makes ground attacks generally unprofitable. Just my reasoning there.

Optimally, you'd have 8-10 filtering and tutoring effects. Not sure what else we could run in Wg to make this deck consistent.

(I think 4 Skulls is too much, but Batterskull + Sylvan = Dark Confidant, hahaha...)

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I'm not sure I'd go all the way down to 28, but I could see testing at 29. I understand your point, but, to me, one of the biggest inconsistencies of Stax is it's own ability to fizzle either through flood or poor draws for the match-up, so I tend to try and minimize lands and maximize 'threats'. I think starting at 30 is reasonable and 29 may not be a significant drop-off. I've not spent a lot of time on the color splash, so I'm not 100% one way or the other, yet.

Sylvan Library is the only draw/filter. Thing is - if I'm not drawing it, I'm drawing something else I need and I really, really only want to see 1. I agree that we want to keep the G count high, but I'm not sure 11 is really too low. It gives us a 78% chance at G in the opener and 86% by turn 3. Adding one more souce only adds a 3% and two more sources about 5.5%. Until I playtest a little, Library is just a tool, not a necessity. [Delver is a bad example since they basically can't keep a hand without an island in it - we should totally be able to keep a hand without access to G]

Stirring Wildwood definitely deserves some thought if we do need to up the G count. I wouldn't play more than 1, though, as this deck will be hard pressed use a tapped land too early. It would make a nice 5 or 6 drop.

Ghostly Prison, I think, is reasonable because it will slow the opponent's development. Moat won't. Moat will shut off the attacks until a solution comes, but they can build as they plan for any out they may have. I'd love to be able to jam Ensnaring Bridge, but it's useless without a Smokestack to eventually remove it. I think the nice thing about Moat is the interaction with Elspeth and Humility, lifting an 8/8 Batterskull into battle is usually an autowin.

Two potential draws would be Sword of Fire and Ice and Bottled Cloister. Bottled Cloister usually has to be boarded out, though, so you just have to plan for that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by frogger42

Actually, about Idyllic Tutor - it fetches out Filtering, Prison Pieces, and potentially, can it find a legacy-playable finisher? Something like Myth Realized but it has to play better with Chalice, obviously. What are the options for enchantment-based finishers under Humility?

EDIT: Awakening Zone x1?

EDIT 2:
4 Elspeth, KE

4 Humility
4 Sylvan Library
1 Awakening Zone
1 Ghostly Prison

3 Batterskull
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond

4 Idyllic Tutor

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Windswept Heath
3 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
2 Stirring Wildwood
3 Plains
2 Savannah
4 Wasteland

14 finishers - significantly easier not to go to time than the 5 finishers in your list, Fred_Bear. Also, plenty of SB options with WG enchantments to choose from. Good place to start? (Awakening Zone could also be... Opalescence, muahaha...)

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Too 'cute'. Awakening Zone is junk. Idyllic Tutor is also far too slow. Whatever you get would have to win the game or completely lock out your opponent and there isn't an enchantment for that. My list is light on finishers, but that's because inevitability is fine when you're behind a wall... I may try this as the starting point:


3 Elspeth, KE

4 Humility
3 Ghostly Prison (Moat if price is no object)

3 Sylvan Library
2 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Chalice of the Void
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Mox Diamond
3 Smokestack
4 Trinisphere

4 City of Traitors
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Inventors' Fair or Buried Ruin
3 Windswept Heath
2 Karakas
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Stirring Wildwood
3 Wasteland

6 draw/filter cards and 6 'finishers' - Let me jam a couple matches and see how it feels...

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Originally Posted by Fred_Bear

Sylvan Library is the only draw/filter. Thing is - if I'm not drawing it, I'm drawing something else I need and I really, really only want to see 1. I agree that we want to keep the G count high, but I'm not sure 11 is really too low. It gives us a 78% chance at G in the opener and 86% by turn 3. Adding one more souce only adds a 3% and two more sources about 5.5%. Until I playtest a little, Library is just a tool, not a necessity. [Delver is a bad example since they basically can't keep a hand without an island in it - we should totally be able to keep a hand without access to G]

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No, that's a good point. You still jam most of your spells without G. But also, if you have Sylvan in your opening hand, you absolutely want to jam it right away. Keeping a Sylvan in hand for 2-3 turns with no way to cast it seems like a miserable way to lose.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fred_Bear

Ghostly Prison, I think, is reasonable because it will slow the opponent's development. Moat won't. Moat will shut off the attacks until a solution comes, but they can build as they plan for any out they may have. I'd love to be able to jam Ensnaring Bridge, but it's useless without a Smokestack to eventually remove it. I think the nice thing about Moat is the interaction with Elspeth and Humility, lifting an 8/8 Batterskull into battle is usually an autowin.

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Moat shuts down your 'Skull, making Elspeth your only out. I'd think Ghostly Prison would do enough work, is lighter on the mana, and lets you gain 4-5 life off a 'Skull for your Sylvan, too.

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Originally Posted by Fred_Bear

Two potential draws would be Sword of Fire and Ice and Bottled Cloister. Bottled Cloister usually has to be boarded out, though, so you just have to plan for that.

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Bottled Cloister sounds okay. SoFI, though, you only run effectively 5 creatures to suit up - 2 Skulls and 3 Elspeth. I suspect it'll be sitting around unequipped for a long time, and not have an immediate effect.

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Originally Posted by Fred_Bear

Too 'cute'. Awakening Zone is junk. Idyllic Tutor is also far too slow. Whatever you get would have to win the game or completely lock out your opponent and there isn't an enchantment for that. My list is light on finishers, but that's because inevitability is fine when you're behind a wall...

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TRUE! Zone is junk. But I think it merits a slot of testing. You get a 1/1 each turn for 3 mana - it's comparable to Elspeth's best ability, the token generation (and a lot tougher to kill/Revoke/Pithing Needle). Idyllic Tutor, though... I think I disagree here. Stax decks durdle a lot and throw up sluggish prison pieces. The strategy generally gives you a turn or two to tutor something up, if you have a quick prison piece established to slow your opponent down. I've run Intuition to fetch pieces (which, yes, is far superior to Idyllic Tutor), but Tutor mostly makes you jam 8x Humility. The fact that it can also fetch filtering (Sylvan) or a win con (please, something better than Awakening Zone...) makes your deck a lot more consistent in what it's trying to do. My playtesting in a different Stax tells me that a 3 mana instant speed tutor def gets there; I think a Sorcery tutor deserves a shot.

C'mon. 8x Humility.

Give your deck a spin! Let us know how it goes. I tend to max out playsets of stuff at first, just so I get to see them more often and see how happy I am with them (or not).

Ok so this is the first I've had a chance to get on. I've been busy getting ready for Christmas with my children so haven't had time to hit the LGS for testing. Ive done some shadow games to get a feel for whats going on with the card draws, and opening hands. The core of the deck feels nice at the moment just in the flow, but the Sanctum Prelate honestly feel clunky at best and at worst its not worth the deck to test officially. On paper he looked nice but in practice it never hits at a descent time. Ive considered taking one out for a second sylvan library and the other spot is....questionable.

Like I said before I am working on budget. Mostly because I dropped what I needed to for completing the final upgrades to my mono black Pox deck which runs 2 nether void, 1 chains of mephistopheles, and 1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale mainboard. The sideboard now has 1 the abyss, and 1 chains of mephistopheles. Lots of time and lots of money spent, but worth it.

Stax is my newest endeavor to build and master. Like I said before I really like prison stax feel and armageddon is still nice for the price range Im working with right now and works with my own play style. Eventually I want to build towards a Wg Dutch, humility/moat. Elspeth, knight-Errant is definitely a key card for such a build to amplify the deck, however I'm hoping that by the time I get to placing the funds further into the build they will have something more effective than batterskull and by that I mean something that has flying built into it so we can work better with moat on the field. skinwing is close but far from what the design needs. This is just me dreaming.

Due to the prison style of the deck has anyone ever tried luminarch ascension? I think it may be to slow.

suppression field would devastate so many decks in my area's meta and is cheap to get my hands onto.

Has anyone attempted exploration or oracle of mul daya?

A mention was made about dropping ghost quarter, but I think it since so many decks in my area area mana greedy there is little chance of having any draw back and gives me the ability to hit my own Flagstones of Trokair and pull mana in the event things don't play out well on the draw. horizon canopy is a test slot for now. Ideally on paper it should be nice, but in play I have concerns that one draw may not be enough and then I realize I'm being greedy.

I prefer to brew a lot on any decks that I build, even if they are decks with known designs.

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Originally Posted by ghostfire86

Ok so this is the first I've had a chance to get on. I've been busy getting ready for Christmas with my children so haven't had time to hit the LGS for testing. Ive done some shadow games to get a feel for whats going on with the card draws, and opening hands. The core of the deck feels nice at the moment just in the flow, but the Sanctum Prelate honestly feel clunky at best and at worst its not worth the deck to test officially. On paper he looked nice but in practice it never hits at a descent time. Ive considered taking one out for a second sylvan library and the other spot is....questionable.

Like I said before I am working on budget. Mostly because I dropped what I needed to for completing the final upgrades to my mono black Pox deck which runs 2 nether void, 1 chains of mephistopheles, and 1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale mainboard. The sideboard now has 1 the abyss, and 1 chains of mephistopheles. Lots of time and lots of money spent, but worth it.

Stax is my newest endeavor to build and master. Like I said before I really like prison stax feel and armageddon is still nice for the price range Im working with right now and works with my own play style. Eventually I want to build towards a Wg Dutch, humility/moat. Elspeth, knight-Errant is definitely a key card for such a build to amplify the deck, however I'm hoping that by the time I get to placing the funds further into the build they will have something more effective than batterskull and by that I mean something that has flying built into it so we can work better with moat on the field. skinwing is close but far from what the design needs. This is just me dreaming.

Due to the prison style of the deck has anyone ever tried luminarch ascension? I think it may be to slow.

suppression field would devastate so many decks in my area's meta and is cheap to get my hands onto.

Has anyone attempted exploration or oracle of mul daya?

A mention was made about dropping ghost quarter, but I think it since so many decks in my area area mana greedy there is little chance of having any draw back and gives me the ability to hit my own Flagstones of Trokair and pull mana in the event things don't play out well on the draw. horizon canopy is a test slot for now. Ideally on paper it should be nice, but in play I have concerns that one draw may not be enough and then I realize I'm being greedy.

I prefer to brew a lot on any decks that I build, even if they are decks with known designs.

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I don't like Prelate in the maindeck, but post-board against Abrupt Decay decks, he's simply better than a Chalice at 2. Chalice is much weaker than it once was. Between Cavern of Souls and Abrupt Decay, I've literally started boarding it out in some matches.

Dutch Stax is a reasonable goal and working towards it on a budget is reasonable. I think the G/W build that we've been discussing is very much in line with that. It could have some benefit to not relying as much on Elspeth (you need his second ability) as much or requiring both WW enchantments for a lock.

Luminarch Aschension - maybe. I have an aversion to cards which don't really do anything on their own to advance you. Remember, you play Ancient Tomb and need to use it a lot of turns.

Exploration - you don't play enough lands (in my opinion) or draw enough cards.

Oracle of Mul Daya - I think it's too fragile and doesn't really do enough, especially alongside Armageddon.

Ghost Quarter is sub-optimal, but playable. I would not play as a 4-of because it's not a Strip Mine until very late against most decks. And while you can play it on your Flagstones, there is really no reason or advantage gained by it. The Flagstones is much, much more valuable in play during an Armageddon, so the only times you would gain an advantage - you already have one (i.e. Crucible or Armageddon).

Horizon Canopy is one draw, but with Crucible, it's many more. Stax has the ability to stall and Canopy is a small way to lessen that blow.

Suppression Field is a beating against most decks in the format. Just in fetches, it will slow down most decks. It's especially gratifying to actually Waste a fetch...



On the last G/W build I posted: I've only played a game or two and it stinks that you have 0 outs against a resolved Planeswalker game 1 and I sided Banishing Light, but without one in your opening hand, you are still vulnerable to it. I'll try a couple more, but I think you need a maindeck answer to Jace or Lilliana.

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Originally Posted by ghostfire86

Like I said before I am working on budget. Mostly because I dropped what I needed to for completing the final upgrades to my mono black Pox deck which runs 2 nether void, 1 chains of mephistopheles, and 1 the tabernacle at pendrell vale mainboard. The sideboard now has 1 the abyss, and 1 chains of mephistopheles. Lots of time and lots of money spent, but worth it.

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ACK! I'm actually selling most of my stuff out, including 1 Nether Void, 4 Abyss, even a Guardian Beast, hahaha. Well, if you know anyone who's looking for almost any legacy card (all I'm keeping is Stax) send them my way!

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Originally Posted by ghostfire86

Stax is my newest endeavor to build and master. Like I said before I really like prison stax feel and armageddon is still nice for the price range Im working with right now and works with my own play style. Eventually I want to build towards a Wg Dutch, humility/moat. Elspeth, knight-Errant is definitely a key card for such a build to amplify the deck, however I'm hoping that by the time I get to placing the funds further into the build they will have something more effective than batterskull and by that I mean something that has flying built into it so we can work better with moat on the field. skinwing is close but far from what the design needs. This is just me dreaming.

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Humility and Moat are really awkward in the same deck. Elspeth is just about the only legacy-playable finisher I can think of that wants to attack through it. Faerie Conclave also works, but hasn't really been effective since Landstill ran it in 2005. As you noted, you can always find a card to synergize with whatever board state you want, it's just whether that card is effective on its own. (And you know Skinwing isn't.)
Otherwise, Humility and Moat - at the same time - you basically need to dome your opponent directly, or The Cheese Stands Alone him/her, some alt win con. YUCK.

All your card choices can be addressed with respect to a proposed list. All of them are certainly legacy-playable, but it's also a matter if they jive well together.

For instance: Exploration doesn't work with Chalice @ 1, one of your stronger plays.

Oracle of Mul Daya doesn't work with Humility, the best creature hoser in the format, so don't run the 2 together (or basically you card disadvantage yourself).

And Suppression Field doesn't work with Planeswalkers, Fetchlands, and a lot of the other utility stuff Stax generally likes to activate, turn after turn.

Just be cognizant of how your prison pieces affect your own ways of getting ahead. The less negative interaction, the better off you are, obviously. I think Fred_Bear and I shot up a couple Stax decks that don't cross their own wires, and those are probably some decent places to get started in just seeing what we mean.

If you really want to jam Moat x4 - I'd suggest not going Humility, and doing something like Baneslayer Angel or possibly Gisela the Whatever, though Gisela can be bolted and Karakas'ed. I think those win cons are easy to adapt to either Moat or Humility in mono-white, but doing both gets super... tricky.

But don't dump a lot of money (Moat x4) on Stax just quite yet. I've playtested a LOT of different styles of Stax, and you really want to solve its biggest problem: it's inherently a topdeck kind of deck. Most lists run almost no filtering or tutoring. Basically, the majority of decklists have no consistency to them, you just jam whatever pieces you have in hand and pray they affect your opponent's board state. (Which is not always the case.)

Burn and Elves don't need to solve this, really. Everything in burn is redundant; almost everything in Elves is a dude. Stax, you'll find, everything is pretty pretty pretty different, and some pieces are terrible against Delver, some are terrible against Miracles. It's all over the board, haha. You optimize the deck by finding what you need, when the MU calls for it.

Does that help?

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Originally Posted by Fred_Bear

On the last G/W build I posted: I've only played a game or two and it stinks that you have 0 outs against a resolved Planeswalker game 1 and I sided Banishing Light, but without one in your opening hand, you are still vulnerable to it. I'll try a couple more, but I think you need a maindeck answer to Jace or Lilliana.

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I just saw this, and I definitely want to address it. Stax gets WRECKED by planeswalkers - you give them a ton of turns to keep activating.

In my opinion and experience, the best way to beat Planeswalkers is not to be reactive (wait to see a PW'er, then Banishing Light it) but to be proactive. That is, have a high enough threat density that you force your opponent to need the planeswalker just to keep up with you. Find ways to put pressure on their life total, too, and then Jace won't be fatesealing you to death, he'll be bouncing your germ tokens while you house him with Elspeth.

I think it's fair to run at least 10 effective win-cons (including things like Idyllic Tutor -> some decent win con) because you ultimately need to win the game somehow, not just salt your opponent to death.

I only use Banishing Light to blow out Show and Tell strategies. It's insane there, a 2-for-1. Just find something that Jace/Liliana doesn't really want to deal with. ie Elspeth, etc. And if you run filtering and tutoring, diversify your threats (run fatties, run weenies) so you can attack your opponent with the optimal threat. That's what keeps Grixis, Elves, everything else competitive! And yes, a proper Stax is a competitive deck.

I think an Exploration-type effect could work just fine to recur Wastelands, Flagstones/fetches, and Canopy through Crucible. The bigger problem I see with Exploration as a card is the cost of 1. If we had a Cavern of Souls for Enchantments and Artifacts, Stax would be so much better. :tongue:

I've always had a love for stax and someone said something awhile back about our own ancient tombs hurting us...
i give you peace of mind, literally...

4 peace of mind
4 ensnaring bridge
4 sea gate wreckage
throw in 2 or 3 riftstone portal for giggles...

Sure, but my sig. Those are cards that work well together, but they don't make a deck. Can you propose a list?

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Originally Posted by frogger42

I just saw this, and I definitely want to address it. Stax gets WRECKED by planeswalkers - you give them a ton of turns to keep activating.

In my opinion and experience, the best way to beat Planeswalkers is not to be reactive (wait to see a PW'er, then Banishing Light it) but to be proactive. That is, have a high enough threat density that you force your opponent to need the planeswalker just to keep up with you. Find ways to put pressure on their life total, too, and then Jace won't be fatesealing you to death, he'll be bouncing your germ tokens while you house him with Elspeth.

I think it's fair to run at least 10 effective win-cons (including things like Idyllic Tutor -> some decent win con) because you ultimately need to win the game somehow, not just salt your opponent to death.

I only use Banishing Light to blow out Show and Tell strategies. It's insane there, a 2-for-1. Just find something that Jace/Liliana doesn't really want to deal with. ie Elspeth, etc. And if you run filtering and tutoring, diversify your threats (run fatties, run weenies) so you can attack your opponent with the optimal threat. That's what keeps Grixis, Elves, everything else competitive! And yes, a proper Stax is a competitive deck.

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Stax does get wrecked by unanswered planeswalkers, no doubt. There is almost no way to combat a resolved Jace or, worse, a Liliana short of Banishing Light/O-Ring. I don't think increasing your 'win' conditions, though, is as effective because it dilutes your Prison versus other decks. If your focus is going to be adding threats, I think MUD or Stompy is a more efficient approach. That's probably where my play style/philosophy differs from yours.

When playing Stax, priority 1 is to slow/lock your opponent. This is ultimately why I prefer 2-5 win conditions, typically diversified (i.e. a manland, a creature, and a planeswalker) as opposed to 10-14 win conditions with 'consistency', i.e. 4-ofs. If I establish a lock, I typically have inevitability that will win. Online I have to deal with a chess clock, and don't have to call a judge for slow play - the opponent can either concede to the lock or try to force me to waste my clock while I attack him 10 times with Magus or 5 times with a Flying Soldier or Batterskull... In paper, call a judge if you are worried about losing to time... I've a lot of times established a lock with Chalice at 1, Trinisphere, Crucible, and a Smokestack at 1 which gets kept in place even against an empty board just passing turn after turn while I find my win condition. It sounds slow, but a win is a win, right?

If I'm going to use a 'win' condition in the form of an enchantment (searchable by Idyllic Tutor), why not just run Enchantress? After playing the G/W deck a few times, I think that's the thing, Enchantress is probably a better G/W enchantment-prison deck and has better synergy. And that's where you want to be - with the individual pieces interacting to help one another.

For a Legacy 'Stax' deck, I think it's just like Vintage Shops, the lock is more important than the Smokestack (Shops plays 0 and more recent 'Stax' lists play 2-3). For now, I'm going back to the Armageddon-core of the deck and the list I posted earlier to see where that is lacking... So far, I find it's got good game and three Suppression Field plus three Banishing Lights really slows down decks relying on planeswalkers.