Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Just to get everything back on topic-ish, I wanted to propose a train of thought I've been entertaining and see who salutes or what anyone can add. So bare with me talking through this. My list is a couple pages back, but for the record it's one of those 60 card lists with 24 land and this draw base:
2 SDT
3 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
2 [other draw]
Now, there are really three choices for the "other draw" slot, Brainstorm, Jace and FoF. I haven't gotten any really seriously different testing results with either of them (in face, 1 jace and another utility slot worked well, though I feel the dedicated card draw is better. And no, I don't like 3x top, that's one thing I've concluded).
I have honestly never wanted more card selection than I have right now with the 3/2 brainstorm SDT split so I don't feel that brainstorm#4 is the right call. Jace and FoF seem to fulfill the role of "massive card advantage" nicely, though both have their pros and cons. FoF is a great EOT play which allows for a more reactive mid-late game, but Jace doubles as a kill condition and is basically GG against anything once he gets going. I also find he's good against aggro (which I never saw coming) since he comes online quickly, divides the opponent's attention, and wins me the game outright if he sticks around. It's only been against Zoo or something like goblins that I mind giving my opponent extra draw power (Jace usually goes -1, draw a card, gets burned out) so I've felt FoF is oddly superior there. Everywhere else, I've wanted a couple jaces. I know Moss and I discussed briefly in PM what Jace's role was, but I feel like he deserves a couple MB slots, at least in a build like mine at the moment.
Thoughts?
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
If your meta is less Zoo and more Thresh, play Jace since you can deal with the board easier with Landstill's resources. If the meta is more Affinity/Zoo, go for FoF since Jace won't stay against Burn and a horde of early beater. He's easily a dead card. It's hard to resolve FoF against Zoo, but your playstyle is to be less greedy, do 1 for 1s e.g. EE@1 blow up 1 Nacatl instead of waiting on an army of 1 drops. My experience is that I tend to play greedy, I use my life to gamble for x for 1s, but I end up losing because of that misplay. If you're playing FoF, you can afford to be less greedy and do 1 for 1s, try to survive to turn 4, and FoF EOT for a bunch of new resources. By then, you have 4 lands and more, in a stabilized position with new cards, and you should own the game by then.
Then again, all the above depends on your hand, but from experience, Jace is good in threat light decks. If your meta is Zoo/Tribal/Affinity, I opt with FoF or even the 4th Brainstorm to try stabilizing. The 3rd top is actually bad, not because I see Top in multiples, but simply because I find that relying on Top decreases the ability of making better play decisions. And not to complain about a wonderful card like Top but there's one thing that Top doesn't do in this deck: net a card. I've found this to be highly critical where I needed to draw the card and have a card other than Top in my next draw. I can always activate to arrange and then respond tap draw to rearrange top back, but Brainstorm is much more efficient in when I actually need to dig and get the card I need.
That's the reason why the 3rd Top is bad for me, it's not an argument to not run the 3rd Top, but it's my taste and playstyle that I detest the 3rd Top. Moss plays his deck differently so he loves it more than I do lol but if I had a choice in my meta, I'd cut top. But my meta is so LD-hatred and Blood Mooned that it's stupid to not play Top.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
I almost never ask for your guys opinion anymore. Its not due to lack of respect. I'm going to post my newest list and allow you to pick it apart and see if you guys can tell me something I don't see. My next tournament I'm expecting a lot of blue based control.
// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
2 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Swamp
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [REW] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
// Creatures
1 [PR] Eternal Dragon
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
3 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [JGC] Counterspell
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [JGC] Cunning Wish
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [JGC] Vindicate
2 [REW] Wrath of God
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [FNM] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [MOR] Negate
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [CNF] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
Might also go -1 standstill +1 jace
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
My list is the same except
-1 Wasteland
-1 Swamp
+1 Plains
+1 Tundra
at least for me 6 colorless sources is idea. I can do a hypogeometric distribution to see if that 1 colorless source really matters when I have time.
-1 Vindicate
-1 Crucible
+1 Disk
+2 Top
I personally might cut top for more draw power again. But like I said my meta strains my manabase so Top is ideal.
I understand what you mean that you don't want advice from all of us. I feel the same way too, because Landstill plays as a very adaptive deck. The card choices aren't nailed down unlike Tempo Thresh builds. Landstill is a highly flexible deck that adapts to the meta. If your meta is too manabase screwy, counterspells are taken out for Spell Snares. If your eta has no Vial.dec or fast aggro, you can play 4 Standstill. If your meta is heavy mirror, then play 2 Jace. It's a beautiful deck and I think to find the optimal list is to basically stop the discussion of the deck, which isn't good. There is probably an optimal list for the current meta (NLU, combo, Thresh, Zoo, Folks) and it seems like aside from 3-5 card choices, our general shell against today's meta is the same.
I like the 3 Counterspells. It's needed because Spell Snare cannot do much against combo outside of tutors. Neither does it stop Chant, which is huge since if it resolves your spell snare becomes useless.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
The only decks that I've lost to in the past few months has been burn, zoo, merfolk, and the mirror. Other than that, it might as well be a bye.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
After a top4 in the biggest online italian summer event (see here, "only" 68 players this year), I began to think about a hybrid list and came to similar conclusions. Here's my hybrid landstill 3.0:
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [R] Tundra
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
2 [R] Underground Sea
1 [R] Scrubland
4 [4E] Mishra's Factory
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
2 [UG] Plains
1 [UG] Swamp
2 [UG] Island
// Spells
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [CST] Brainstorm
3 [AP] Vindicate
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
3 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [JU] Cunning Wish
1 [CFX] Path to Exile
2 [A] Counterspell
1 [TE] Humility
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [MOR] Negate
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [PS] Orim's Chant
SB: 1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
60 cards total. Optimized manabase, no wasteland though, even with crucible. Less basics and more fetches, this time. I prefer developing a long-term game so no need of more uncolored lands then necessary. Preferred humility above disk, which nonetheless I love, for 2 reasons: a) lack of wrath; b) disk is almost overkill, with the combination of vindicate+wish. Fof over top for the basic reason that the deck is quite linear and most of its tools are very versatile, so many times doesn't really matter which answer you draw, but to draw answer. So card quantity has been privileged over card quality, and thus fof over top. Decrees been cut for no room and wrath for playstyle/cost-effect ratio (always ihmo).
A third Elspeth has been added. I thought it was crap, but: a) we want to see it always, in every game, 2 is not enough (it's not a mere utility, it's game breaker); b) less counter backup required. The downside is that an extirpate on elspeth hurts. (Black based is already a problem, who cares...)
Not so much to say about the sb. Disenchant effect barely needed, just a fracturing gust or 2 if we plan to face stax/enchantress (then we should not play landstill...), in the room of chant. 2 chants are metaslots, maybe a 1/1 split between extirpate and chant would do better. I'm also higly reconsidering extirpate as a 3x, there are many mu's in which we'll be glad to see it, and it's not obvious that we win the mirror.
@rockout: if you plan to see many blue based control, I'd go -1 humility -1 crucible +2 extirpate, and maybe cut the wraths for MD path, or +1/2 jace.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rockout
The only decks that I've lost to in the past few months has been burn, zoo, merfolk, and the mirror.
I don't know if you have encountered this in your testing vs. zoo, but Sylvan Library (if they can stick it) invalidates the Pulse plan. You have a shit ton of ways to deal with it, (vindicate, spell snare, EE, force, etc.) but they only need one upkeep to rob you of a lot of time to maneuver pulse into a viable insurance plan.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
If they want to play library and not a goyf I'm ok with that. If its not beat my face or burning me I could care less.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rockout
If they want to play library and not a goyf I'm ok with that. If its not beat my face or burning me I could care less.
By the time I want to get pulse online, SL is an amazing threat for zoo, giving them both more gas and an out to pulse. Definitely a must counter mid-game, and a mis-play for the zoo player early game.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rsaunder
By the time I want to get pulse online, SL is an amazing threat for zoo, giving them both more gas and an out to pulse. Definitely a must counter mid-game, and a mis-play for the zoo player early game.
I can agree with that.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
So far, if I read correctly, against an AGGRO (zoo, Merfolk and Elves) meta (and Aggro-control in the Threshold like), I am better with alot of removals (like Geoff?)
I am considering
3 wrath of god
2 vindicate (3?)
3 Engineered explosives (2 + 1 disk?)
4 STP
It's still less than the 3 wog-3 vindi-2 EE-2 Disk -4 STP split from Geoff
I'm still trying to fit in some SDT. I'm really convinced about its power. But I don't know if I want to cut a brainstorm for it
At the moment
4 brainstorm
3 standstill
2 fact or fiction
2 cunning wish (love those!)
I want to fit in 2 SDT and 1 Crucible of Worlds
Most deck, I expect, will run mana denial. I already run 1 dragon. Maybe a COW would help too.
I already play wasteland in the MD, but they don'T seem very usefull without the COW
any thoughts?
Counterspells are : 2cs 4 fow, 2 ss
What are your thoughts about 0 Spellsnare? (like geoff)
My biggest concern with SS is that they can counter alot of powerful 2cc threats. But on the other hand, the huge bombs played in the deck can easily compensate those threats being uncountered.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rockout
I almost never ask for your guys opinion anymore. Its not due to lack of respect. I'm going to post my newest list and allow you to pick it apart and see if you guys can tell me something I don't see. My next tournament I'm expecting a lot of blue based control.
No biggie.
Quote:
// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
3 [B] Tundra
2 [B] Underground Sea
1 [B] Scrubland
2 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [UNH] Swamp
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
3 [REW] Wasteland
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
// Creatures
1 [PR] Eternal Dragon
You only ever need 3 Black sources in addition to your fetchlands. You should replace a Underground Sea with a Tundra. Perhaps also cut a Flooded Strand for another Polluted Delta so it can fetch a basic Swamp easier during the early stages of the game.
Quote:
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
3 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [JGC] Counterspell
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
3 [OD] Standstill
2 [JGC] Cunning Wish
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [ALA] Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [JGC] Vindicate
2 [REW] Wrath of God
1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
You should replace the Crucible of Worlds with another DoJ. In the long run, DoJ is going to be more helpful against blue based control compared to CoW. Also, a lot of blue based control is running Wastelands nowadays, so they can just Waste your Academy Ruins if that's your only out to recurring your CoW.
Quote:
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [FNM] Engineered Plague
SB: 4 [MOR] Negate
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [CNF] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [TE] Humility
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
Against Control, Extirpate might be more handy. Then again, it seems a little win-more with 4 Negates in the sideboard already. Although, 4 Negates may be handy, but I personally think you only ever need 3. A nifty thing to do here is replace a copy of Negate with a Spell Snare. You can wish for it during Game 1s, and after that the Spell Snare can be boarded in to maximize your chances of having it in your opening hand. Also, in games where you would board Negates in against, Spell Snares are good against those decks too. So try that, because my results with having a 4th Spell Snare in the SB has been really helpful. You should also try and squeeze in a Fracturing Gust in there, but it might be a little overkill since you're running 3 Vindicate and 3 EE maindeck.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
You should replace the Crucible of Worlds with another DoJ. In the long run, DoJ is going to be more helpful against blue based control compared to CoW. Also, a lot of blue based control is running Wastelands nowadays, so they can just Waste your Academy Ruins if that's your only out to recurring your CoW.
Pretty much agreed. Though I still prefer the inevitability one has with ruins cow lock into eventually disk lock with elspeth, your reasoning makes sense.
Quote:
Against Control, Extirpate might be more handy. Then again, it seems a little win-more with 4 Negates in the sideboard already.
Agreed. Better off with the 3rd decree here in my opinion. Or for that matter mind slaver which I haven't gotten to fully test but seems like it would be a huge bomb for inevitability.
Quote:
Although, 4 Negates may be handy, but I personally think you only ever need 3.
Yep.
Quote:
A nifty thing to do here is replace a copy of Negate with a Spell Snare. You can wish for it during Game 1s, and after that the Spell Snare can be boarded in to maximize your chances of having it in your opening hand.
Interesting idea, and if he does choose to run the fourth permission slot I would strongly recommend this with 3 md cs.
Quote:
Also, in games where you would board Negates in against, Spell Snares are good against those decks too.
Except against ant.
Quote:
So try that, because my results with having a 4th Spell Snare in the SB has been really helpful.
Rockout and I should both test this. I'll let you know how my testing turns out.
Quote:
You should also try and squeeze in a Fracturing Gust in there, but it might be a little overkill since you're running 3 Vindicate and 3 EE maindeck.
I tested Gust and while I enjoyed it immensly when it was insane, it was obviously either insane or just a waste. I'd rather play R2D as it has been much more consistent and basicly solves the problems - affinity (Winnable without mass arti-hate)
Overall I like your points. One thing i've been trying to do is cutt r2d as im running highlander vindicate in favor of 3rd decree + COW in the board.
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mossivo1986
Interesting idea, and if he does choose to run the fourth permission slot I would strongly recommend this with 3 md cs.
It's amazing. Spell Snare is just such a golden counter.
Quote:
Except against ant.
ANT got fucked in the ass hard by new rulings. I wouldn't fear ANT as a deck at this point with 3 Negates, 3 Counterspells, 4 FoWs and 4 Spell Snares.
Quote:
Rockout and I should both test this. I'll let you know how my testing turns out.
I guarantee that your results will make a topdecked Wish a more efficient card in those scenarios. I really like my Wish board right now, as it is amazingly efficient and redundant.
Quote:
Overall I like your points. One thing i've been trying to do is cutt r2d as im running highlander vindicate in favor of 3rd decree + COW in the board.
Sideboards are sideboards. They will never stay the same. Some days, you will have to run something else in place of those Vindicates, but perhaps today is not that day.
Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill
Sorry guys, I went to a tournament yesterday and failed horribly. I ended 6th after 6 rounds with a 4-2 score in 24 person tournament. I lost against Zoo and Goyf Sligh, because I made to much mistakes( it are both matchups where you can't make mistakes.)
I did win against Merfolk and Aggro-Loam so that's good. How should the Loam matchup be? I'm 4-0(8-2) playing against Loam in tournaments, so I don't really fear it. But both here and in the Aggro-Loam thread people say the matchup is in favor of Loam. G1 is though but if you can land Humility you have good changes. G2 is alot easier with boarding in 10 spells( 1 Crucible of Worlds, 3 Path to Exile, 4 Relic of Progenitus and 2 Ajani Goldmane.) All the cards boarded in can boarded against other decks as well.
Benie
Re: [DTB] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mossivo1986
Or for that matter mind slaver which I haven't gotten to fully test but seems like it would be a huge bomb for inevitability.
:eek:
Uhhh, I'm playing this Wednesday, I might be able to get a hold of one and pop it in the list.
Sounds absolutely hilarious.
Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill
@citrus: why would I ever want to wish for spell snare? I want to only really wish for stuff that's going to win me the game like extirpate pulse or tutor for humility
Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill
I'd love to mindslaver someone but it would be cost 10 mana each turn to play + activate it, plus 2 for the academy ruins activation + the ruins itself so I guess it would be impossible?
Unless you're going to slaver every 2nd turn or something, which is still funny but not half as good.
Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ectoplasm
I'd love to mindslaver someone but it would be cost 10 mana each turn to play + activate it, plus 2 for the academy ruins activation + the ruins itself so I guess it would be impossible?
Unless you're going to slaver every 2nd turn or something, which is still funny but not half as good.
Slaver hypatheticly should win you the game the turn you activate it and use it on your opponent in the control matchup. Especially in the mirror. Force them to cast that FOF they drew and pull a 5-0 pile and choose NOTHING. Shuffle away a top and find no land with the fetch, wrath their favorable board position away. STP their own factories. Wish and find no card outside the game. ect. ect. The game should be absolutely over when you take their turn the first time. If you need to ruins it back thats absolutely fine.
Re: [DTW] UW(x) Landstill
Well, yeah, I guess that makes sense, activating their own factories and plowing them/running them into yours and stuff like that.
Seems like a pretty cool idea actually :D Fuckit, that one's on my to-do-list as well as trying out those preachers next tourney.
