I would kill for someone tapping out turn 3 or turn 2 (with DRS) for TNN (Pun intended)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
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I would kill for someone tapping out turn 3 or turn 2 (with DRS) for TNN (Pun intended)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Also, a seven-turns clock is pretty unimpressive, esp. when the creature alone doesn't do anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I'd fear Teeg/Thalia/Cannonist/Confidant/Goyf/SFM much more than this new dude. And notice these are two-drops, while TNN... Heck, I'd much rather stare at this than at Phyrexian Negator. Or, speaking of color blue, an Illusionary Angel/Sea Drake...
Apart from that fact that i don't see how that changes anything, no. TNN ist not a threat, it is an answer to uncounterable removal (Abrupt Decay and Punishing Fire). Decks don't want to play a 3/∞ for 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
TNN is really slow for legacy standart and thus bad against combo.
Non interactive? There are whole decks that are non interactive, also called combo decks. How is a single, slow creature worse?
Non interactive? Every single current D2B either doesn't care or can do something against TNN. ANT, Dredge, Elves and S&S can just race it. UGR and UWR can race it, counter it or prevent three mana with Stifle and Wasteland. Jund has Discard and Liliana, Shardless Discard, Counters and Liliana, Miracles has Terminus and counters and DnT can prevent three mana with Prot and Wasteland or attack with pro:blue from MoM.
Yes, TNN is strong, but we already have Goyf and Delver, surely both more format warping than TNN is going to be.
More whinning about combo? The only color that lacks decent answers to combo is green. Stop that nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Derklord
Something that you and other fail to realize is, that every DtB in the history of Magic tries to minimize the possible interactions of their opponens with their cards. You don't want your creatures handled by removal, you don't want your opponent having mana/time to play spells, you don't wanna see your spells countered, etc. Reducing your opponents possible ways to interact with your deck is one of the most important aspects to winning a game.
My price prediction of TNN is going to eventually drop to $20-25.
He's good but not super amazing in the grand scheme of things. Certainly not game-breaking like Mental Misstep.
There will be a meta shift and Merfolks will likely make a comeback because of him. I actually think he's terrible in tempo decks like RUG since they don't want a lot of mana and tapping out for three is not good for their plan of cheap threats + disruption. Rug resolving TNN against something like Jund or w/e isn't a big deal between their non-targeted removal and superior threats.
He's much better in mid-rangey/slower decks that want a guaranteed kill condition. A Shardless Deck resolving TNN against RUG is pretty much game over for them: it can block their Gofys and Mongeese all day, they have no ways to remove it, and Abrupt Decay handles their Delver.
tld;r TNN isn't getting banned.
TNN is just a nail in the coffin for all "fair" decks like RUG/BUG/non-miracle controls, all of them will need MD answer vs this guy - it will just shift those deck to more unplayable or change them to adopt - like MD Engineered Explosives (btw this card will rise in prize).
BUG already has maindeck answers for it. Discard can grab it and Lilly can sac it. BUG decks might actually like to have TNN main decked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
Most control decks don't care about it.
RuG tempo decks are the ones most in trouble by it. TNN will most likely see play in Merfolk, which means counters do nothing. Burn can't remove it. TNN is a good card but not ban worthy. He's basically a suped up Troll Ascetic.
Wait for Leyline of Sanctity build...
Golgari Charm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatal
No one speaking about Show and Tell after yesterday Top8 in SCG?
Half of the decks were Sneak and Show
Why? The whole format is full of Delver and S&T. No news.Quote:
Originally Posted by BVB09
At least Delver is a creature, and indeed more interactive/fun.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
In any case Delver appears in 3-4 diferent decks, but yesterday we got the same deck in half of the top8
+1.5Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I utterly destroyed several people with StifleWaste on last Thu and it wasn't the only time I've done so. Sitting on zero lands, been beaten by a pair of one-mana 3/2 flying Nacatls or by two-mana 4/5 Werebear while knowing that your opponent holds FoW, Snare, Pierce, REB, Daze, Daze, Daze is hardly what I'd call "a fair situation".
Griselbrand and Emrakul are creatures too and are played also in Reanimator, 12-post, Doomsday, Vintage Oath and others. 3 isn't the half of 8 either. All your arguments are invalid.Quote:
Originally Posted by BVB09
I guess the curious thing is why did the invitational guys opted for Sneak&Show instead of OmniTell in general. Topic for another thread..
On the S&T banworthiness etc., I think the people who think it's an overpowered card should take it to 4-5 consecutive events. I had my best and worst finishes with the deck. Sometimes you get all the right cards and feel unbeatable. Sometimes no amount of cantripping can find you the cards you need and your opp. seems to have all the right answers. It's a miserable experience when the deck shits on itself.
Sure 12-post is a tier deck, same as Doomsday. I don't know why are you speaking about vintage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I suppose those are creatures just the same way as Balustrade Spy and Simian Spirit Guide are.
In any case I was speaking about Show and Tell, not Emrakul or Griselbrand
PD: I can count 4.
Deck Finish Player
Sneak and Show 1st
Sneak and Show 2nd
Shardless BUG 3rd
Sneak and Show 4th
Sneak and Show 5th
Esper Stoneblade 6th
Shardless BUG 7th
U/W/R Delver 8th
My guess is so they could play Blood Moon, especially vs Shardless BUG.Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgs
But on topic, the prevalence of S&S in the top 8 was more that several very strong players chose a well-positioned deck and did well, and less that the deck is so broken that a card needs to be banned. The decks that went 8-0 or 7-1 in the Legacy portion of the event do include 3 Sneak and Show lists, but there's a bit of diversity after that, including decks like 12-Post, Affinity, Miracles, and Imperial Painter.
Indeed. Plus, there was the hilarious game five between BBD and Brad Nelson which showcases the fact that sometimes, variance just kills you: BBD saw the same five cards after about 7 shuffles, including multiple BS-Fetch shuffles. What let the others down, including our Turbo-Eldrazi player Dan, was their Standard portion. It was definitely a Perfect-Storm kind of situation, but nothing so dominant as Clamp season in Onslaught-Mirrodin Standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapback
The invitational had plenty of SS because that team of players decided, together, that it was a good meta call for a tournament that usually has a fairly predictable meta.
Nothing to see here
Two card combo easier to play than three?Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgs
Yeah people have been sleeping on S&T lately. It's not the monster banworthy deck people made it out to be when Griz dropped but the deck is still real. Ignoring it is comparable to what ignoring Dredge used to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by davelin
I think Griselbrand is easily the most ban-able card in Legacy, although I don't think it needs to be banned right now. Show and Tell and maybe Entomb are distant seconds, but I think it's healthy to have those strategies in Legacy. Griselbrand is what pushes those cards to the limit. It's a little insulting that they printed that card with Yawg Bargain being banned.
I do not see Griselbrand getting the boot, not because it is a card that enables some broken play, but because it's RnD's forth go at making their favourite Enchantment do they ever seam to love the dam thing. (Greed tho was a total bust.)
It would take a large amount of people quitting before they touch their pet.
forth go at making their favorite enchantment? what were the others?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
Also, Griselbrand and Yawg bargain are very different. making a 7 life commitment is very different than giving up 1 life at a time. If you are at 7 life griselbrand can't draw you cards but bargain will still get you 6 cards.
Also, if you turn 1 a bargain you can get 19 cards, if you turn 1 a griselbrand you get 14 cards. decks like ANT would probably stop using Ad nauseum and run 4x bargain.
NecropotenceQuote:
Originally Posted by apple713
Yawgmoth's Bargain (The "Fixed" Necro)
Greed (The reprint in 6th as a way to get people to stop playing the other two. Both where legal in extended at the time and where at this point heavily played.
Griselbrand
They really like the ability. Even should (and I do not see it happening) Brand get the boot, when the memories die away we will see a reprint of this concept. For whatever reason it is both seen as broken in two but so loved they push what really is better left alone.
what if they just printed necropotence with a :b: in addition to the 1 life. seems to slow down the bonkers drawsQuote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Still seems way too good in a ritual-powered deck. It would probably be fine in vintage but not legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
i don't think necropotence is even played in vintage...no top 8's with it at this year's BoM.Quote:
Originally Posted by thecrav
having to :b: might make it too slow to even be used with all of the tempo and degernate combo in legacy. Even if u turn 1 cast it off a ritual you wouldn't be able to draw a card from it until the end of your second turn and since you no longer draw cards normally for the turn you almost lose a turn because you have to pay :b: just to draw 1 for the turn. Late game its great and amazing but other than that the mana restriction along with the delayed draw would make it to slow to be abused.
3 life and 3 :b: for 3 cards is in line with ambition's cost especially with a huge downside of skipping your draw phase and drawing the cards at EoT.
It is played, just not as much as it once was.
Also I dislike talking about Vintage while comparing cards. I mean this is a format where Dredge cares more about having one broken land more than having a card to Dredge with. A LAND. The format is broken in half. Saying something is played less there than it once was does nothing to disprove the fact that the card is bonkers.
You're right. This is a recurring theme. Erebos, God of the Dead is the latest representative, though attaching the mana cost to the activation keeps the card in check. I can say that Necro was busted in its era, Bargain was not quite as strong but was still ultimately busted, Greed was playable but not overpowered, and Griselbrand is more busted than all, mainly because it regains the life lost and because there are so many ways to cheat it into play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I recall reading that Wizards do not think they have enough people in RnD to consider the effect of new sets on various formats.
Given that it would be best to ban cards that can cheat other cards into play, wouldn't it? That way they could print whatever they like and be safe evermore.
It was played by Reid Duke who top 8'd Vintage World Champs the same day.Quote:
Originally Posted by apple713
Edit - 11-11-13
In before "OMG 10 copies of TNN in SCG top 8 ban Nemesis!"
My wife knows nothing about MtG and yesterday I was showing her my Miracles deck. She took a look at the cards, picked up Brainstorm and told she like that one best. I guess it doesn't take too much to understand Brainstorm is one hell of a card :D. I thought it was pretty funny, I didn't know where to post this so I picked the B/R thread as Brainstorm is a popular topic here :D
It's funny how I was teaching a guy at work how to play Magic. He had a no rare Soldier Tribal and I have a no rare U/R Pyromancer deck. He thought Pyromancer was cool but he thinks Brainstorm is broken with Terramorphic Expanse. This guy only started playing magic 4 days ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Higgs
Recent results indicate that True-Name Nemesis is indeed ban-worthy, just look at the latest SCG Top 8.
Don't confuse "dominance" with "hype"Quote:
Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa
Cards played at the last SCG open top 8 -Quote:
Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa
Brainstorm - 28
Force of Will - 26
STP - 24
Stoneforge Mystic - 22
TNN - 17
The meta is still shifting. Maybe, after GP Paris we will know enough to form real opinions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by testing32
Legacy:
Craterhoof Behemoth is banned.
FixedQuote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
I suggest to ban Delver of Secrets, Show and Tell and True-Name Nemesis to improve the overall gaming experience in our format.
edit: Thinking of what we have to face nowadays, Delver seems kind of harmless actually...but it should have been banned from the beginning anyways..