[Deck] Death and Taxes

I have been playing this budget version on modo for the last day or so:


4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Serra Avenger
3 Flickerwisp
3 Mirran Crusader
2 Vryn Wingmare

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
15 Plains

Sideboard:
2 Cataclysm
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sunlance
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Banishing Light
1 Holy Light


Not too shabby despite missing ports, which I have found actually hurts in the Shardless MU more than anything else. Miracles has been a cakewalk for me, as have all the delver decks. The 3 Mirrans are because there is lots of shardless online right now, and they actually can swing games against elves involving jitte. Containment Priests/Ports/Recruiters/Magus (wheel and also moon) possibly on the way if my testing continues to go well :)

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Originally Posted by Violence

Here's my burning question. In terms of one of's to fetch with the Recruiter, what if I boarded into Peacekeeper + SoLaS vs Infect and Elves? I don't think either deck has a way to interact with this combo besides Piracy Charm, and it seems to just lock they down. am I crazy?

I also want to run the Mirran Crusader main, but I don't want to cut Mangara. Suggestions?

EDIT: Also, can someone let me know which top tier decks are the worst matchups for this deck? I want to theorycraft a few more changes.

EDIT 2: I've noticed people sticking to Avenger, so I haven't cut it, but I was wondering if my Avengers could be cut here for Mirran Crusader and Vryn's Wingmare, to expand my tutor package.

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Peacekeeper is pretty good vs Infect - assuming we can eventually figure out a way to win - but tutoring vs Elves is usually too slow and they do board into Abrupt Decays. They are pretty likely to find one before we can set up our one of Peacekeeper + Mom.

Worst matchups are Elves, Infect, Jund, UR Delver, Burn and a certain extent the mirror, though it depends on the build. The first 3 are bad D+T matchups regardless and the red splash offers some interesting sideboard options. The last 3 are decks that don't care about Blood Moon + have a fast clock.

I think most people have actually cut most of their Avengers for the reason you cite.

More of a playstyle question that strategy. I've noticed that when playing against RUG Delver players, that explicitly announcing Living Weapon trigger off of Batterskull or RIP trigger, it reminds them that it can be stifled, whereas if one just grabs a germ token or goes to rotate their graveyards sideways, that the opponent will exile their graveyards or acknowledge the germ, which implicitly says the trigger resolves. Would this be a shady thing to do, as I feel that announcing triggers is the right thing to do, which reminds them they can stifle it. Thoughts? Not that the RUG Delver matchup needs that much more help...

My last rounds against Infect have changed my mind about the matchup. With the 4 Vryn Wingmare's version I felt like a balanced matchup or even 55%-45% in our favor. It's fantastic have double posibilities to draw "Thalia". Also, of course, improve a lot the interaction with Inkmoth Nexus adding 4 more flyers. The success of Lands at the GP helps to the Infect matchup too IMHO because I, for example, have added a second Needle to the sideboard. So the concern is Agent basically.

I think with RW version have to be a really hard matchup because it's a more midrange D&T, losing a bit the possibility to win with lock, wich is the way to deal with Infect for us.

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Originally Posted by iatee

Peacekeeper is pretty good vs Infect - assuming we can eventually figure out a way to win - but tutoring vs Elves is usually too slow and they do board into Abrupt Decays. They are pretty likely to find one before we can set up our one of Peacekeeper + Mom.

Worst matchups are Elves, Infect, Jund, UR Delver, Burn and a certain extent the mirror, though it depends on the build. The first 3 are bad D+T matchups regardless and the red splash offers some interesting sideboard options. The last 3 are decks that don't care about Blood Moon + have a fast clock.

I think most people have actually cut most of their Avengers for the reason you cite.

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Thanks for the feedback! I think I will run a Peacekeeper in the board. I think the way to beat Infect is to first draw into your Thalia/Wingmare/Canonist to prevent them from instakilling you, using your Swords to Plowshares to keep them in check, while tutoring for either Jitte, Magus or Peacekeeper. Once the keeper is down, you just setup a winning lock, like Magus Jitte fliers, Karakas Mangara, or the like.

I'm worried a bit about Elves. I used to board into 3 Spirit of the Labyrinth, 2 Containment Priest, 4 Revokers, Canonist, 2 E Tutor, EE, Chalice, Cage, and that really helped to shore up the matchup.

Now I don't have Spirits, I only have 2 Priest, 2 Revoker, 2 Canonist, no E Tutor board, 2 Sudden Demise... Do I need more?

I have Firewalkers for Burn, and Sudden Demise against UR, but I feel like that's not enough.

Are there other cards you would recommend for the Jund, UR Delver, and Burn matchups?

If you think Mono-W has an even or favored matchup vs Infect because of Thalia effects, you just haven't played it enough. The deck can win without casting a single non-creature spell and often only needs to cast or or two 0/1 mana spells to win the game. Mom into Blighted Agent doesn't care about Thalia/Wingmare, in fact it just ensures we'll never be able to cast our STPs.

There's a difference between Thalia effects can sometimes steal us a game vs them and Thalia effects make the match even or in our favor.

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Originally Posted by iatee

If you think Mono-W has an even or favored matchup vs Infect because of Thalia effects, you just haven't played it enough. The deck can win without casting a single non-creature spell and often only needs to cast or or two 0/1 mana spells to win the game. Mom into Blighted Agent doesn't care about Thalia/Wingmare, in fact it just ensures we'll never be able to cast our STPs.

There's a difference between Thalia effects can sometimes steal us a game vs them and Thalia effects make the match even or in our favor.

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This has been my experience as well, my friend plays Infect, and I play both decks. Infect is very interesting, as it can play fairly, or unfairly, depending on the matchup. I've been wracking my brain for a decent solution.

The closest I've come is Peacekeeper, but I'm wondering if that deserves a sideboard slot. It does rely on us slowing the game down enough to find it, but if we do, I think it is an answer.

If I have had decent results against Infect in my latest rounds means that I have not played the matchup enough? LOL. It was only my point of view, can believe it or not. Easy. I told you the way to deal with it IMHO

I consider Infect has the same structure as a Delver deck with an important quality to finish games really quickly so we have tools to change the game into a bit fair one

@Violence: I just noticed you run the same MD as I do, except I run Mirran Crusader instead of Mangara tutor target. I like its performance so, as the more tutor-heavy builds somehow felt wrong in terms of speed and threats somehow. A third Revoker would be nice, but I'm not sure how to squeeze it in. Maybe cut an Avenger for it?

2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
2 Plains
2 Plateau
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
3 Imperial Recruiter
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Mirran Crusader

4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 Leonin Relic-Warder
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Sword of War and Peace
SB: 3 Fireslinger/Sudden Demise
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor

I'll test 2 Magus of the Wheel in the slot of Serra Avenger and see how it goes. Same goes for Fireslinger in the Sudden Demise SB slot.

Can anybody remind me in which match-ups Mangara shines that isn't already handled by the rest of the deck? I dislike him for dying to everything and being slow, but I'm wondering if he could be a SB tutor target in one of the two Judgment slots with 3 Recruiters main. Although setting Mangara up with the tutor route is ultra-slow.

I think if you play a large set of games against Infect, you will definitely win off Thalia effects sometimes, but you will also lose off those same Thalia effects as soon as you have a STP and realize you can't cast any more spells that game if you want to keep it up + can never hardcast and use your equipment. I've been in enough of those situations often enough now to know that Thalia is not across-the-board good against them. Basically, your good plays against Infect are mana-hungry plays.

Infect plays ramp, creatures, and 0 or 1 mana spells. Their mana is not as greedy as a Delver decks, and with t1 Hierarch they often have more mana to work with than we do. Hierarch into Blighted Agent w/ a Pendlehaven does not care about 100 Thalia effects.

Overall, it is never an unwinnable match and it's not nearly as bad as Elves, but D+T is still on the back-foot, especially against any hand with a Blighted Agent in it.

I don't think Mangara particularly shines in any given matchup but I'm definitely glad to have a maindeck tutorable Vindicate once in a while. Kinda feels like Batterskull in that when you want it as a tutor target you are reallly happy it's there, but you also very rarely want it in your opening hand. I dunno, I'm pretty 50-50 on it.

I've had good experiences with Mangara against Miracles and MUD.

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Originally Posted by Barook

Can anybody remind me in which match-ups Mangara shines that isn't already handled by the rest of the deck? I dislike him for dying to everything and being slow, but I'm wondering if he could be a SB tutor target in one of the two Judgment slots with 3 Recruiters main. Although setting Mangara up with the tutor route is ultra-slow.

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Other slow and/or fair decks. I absolutely love Mangara.

I was once locked out of doing anything meaningful against enchantress cos of Moat (was playing r/w without Pia+Kiran/any tutorable fliers), and he had double sterling grove. So I blew up every single one of his lands with Mangara. The hard way too, no Aether Vial. Anyway, he asked me why I wouldn't scoop rather than just being a griefer or whatever and I told him that he had drawn way more cards than me, and that he would deck first. He ended up cracking a sterling grove out of desperation to get a chrome mox, but he couldn't play it through Thalia. One of my fondest memories in playing R/W I must say.

Anyway, I know anecdotes don't mean much, but it's just so versatile at picking apart decks reliant on synergies that I've always found it worth it. It's also especially good at taking miracles off of white mana (see my above post) which is great. I do love stone-raining my opponent 20 times, especially when they play Brainstorm :cool:]. Sometimes it's just a 3 mana Swords to Plowshares that requires a turn of living to work, but even at it's worst it's still something I'm usually happy with.

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Originally Posted by iatee

I think if you play a large set of games against Infect, you will definitely win off Thalia effects sometimes, but you will also lose off those same Thalia effects as soon as you have a STP and realize you can't cast any more spells that game if you want to keep it up + can never hardcast and use your equipment. I've been in enough of those situations often enough now to know that Thalia is not across-the-board good against them. Basically, your good plays against Infect are mana-hungry plays.

Infect plays ramp, creatures, and 0 or 1 mana spells. Their mana is not as greedy as a Delver decks, and with t1 Hierarch they often have more mana to work with than we do. Hierarch into Blighted Agent w/ a Pendlehaven does not care about 100 Thalia effects.

Overall, it is never an unwinnable match and it's not nearly as bad as Elves, but D+T is still on the back-foot, especially against any hand with a Blighted Agent in it.

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So I did not lie talking about the matchup. Agent is the big problem, and obviously Hierarch, like DRS in BUG/Grixis decks as we run a mana denial deck. If Infect have the start you have comented and does not play a single noncreature spell, come for another game, you do not have much more to do but D&T sometimes have ridicoulous starts too. From reasons I talked before, I have quit Infect from the really bad matchups by the moment. Still been there Elves and turn 1 combos.


In the other hand, I played yesterday a tournament with 28 players, finishing 3-2. Enchantress with Clout of Faeries crush me in round 2 and I can not do nothing. We have luck without having to play against it often. After starting 0-2 (losing against Junk too) won RUG and BUG Delver and Jeskai Blade

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Originally Posted by Barook

@Violence: I just noticed you run the same MD as I do, except I run Mirran Crusader instead of Mangara tutor target. I like its performance so, as the more tutor-heavy builds somehow felt wrong in terms of speed and threats somehow. A third Revoker would be nice, but I'm not sure how to squeeze it in. Maybe cut an Avenger for it?

Can anybody remind me in which match-ups Mangara shines that isn't already handled by the rest of the deck? I dislike him for dying to everything and being slow, but I'm wondering if he could be a SB tutor target in one of the two Judgment slots with 3 Recruiters main. Although setting Mangara up with the tutor route is ultra-slow.

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I agree, I'm doing a big tournament today, I'll report back with my list, changes, and thinking.

I usually grab Mangara against slow deck while I have some protection. With Karakas or Flickerwisp, he just gets to kill very important permanents, like Jace, or lands. I really like him vs Miracles, especially.

Hi there,

if someone is interested: I wrote an article about the deck (part primer, part analysis)

http://www.mtgq.it/death-or-taxes-de...ius-haussmann/

Greetz,
Marius

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Originally Posted by Violence

I agree, I'm doing a big tournament today, I'll report back with my list, changes, and thinking.

I usually grab Mangara against slow deck while I have some protection. With Karakas or Flickerwisp, he just gets to kill very important permanents, like Jace, or lands. I really like him vs Miracles, especially.

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I'd love to hear some feedback regarding the tournament and the deck's performance.

Alright guys, I went to a Win-a-Mox yesterday to get some good ol fashioned experience with this deck, and played 7 rounds of Swiss, eventually going 3-4. I think I had some ups and downs, played decently but not amazing, no ridiculous punts that I can recall, and had both good and bad variance throughout the day. Here are my thoughts.

The list I played:

2 Cavern of Souls
3 Karakas
2 Plains
2 Plateau
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Windswept Heath

4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
3 Imperial Recruiter
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Mirran Crusader

4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

SB: 3 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Sudden Demise
SB: 1 Magus of the Moon
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Kor Firewalker
SB: 1 Fireslinger

Thoughts on the mainboard:

So in the testing leading up to this list, I felt like now that the deck runs more colorless lands, it's a lot harder to hit things that are double white, which are not human. I'll eventually have to make difficult decisions in whether or not to cast things without leaving up Karakas protection for Thalia, whether or not to fetch Plateau in game 1 without having any red spells in hand(or maybe having a Recruiter but thinking I can win without showing the red splash), or just having cards dead in hand because they aren't human and I named human with my Cavern.

This lead me to cut the two Avengers, because of how difficult they are to get into play without a vial, and at first I was running a Vryn Wingmare, a Crusader, and a Mangara, but I think Revoker is really too valuable to the deck to only be running 2, it's very easy to cast for us, and of the three 1 of 3 drops I listed, Wingmare was the least unique and impactful, so I cut it for a third Revoker.

Thoughts on the sideboard:

I wasn't sure how good Fireslinger was, but I was only able to procure a single copy for this event anyways. It ended up being pretty decent, and I didn't end up needing my 3rd, or any of my Canonists, but that's all results oriented thinking. I feel that it's a lot harder to play double white spells like Council's Judgment, but that could also just be from my experience in this tournament.

Round 1

On the play vs Gonzalo, running UG 12 Post.

I've never seen UG 12 Post before, and I was a bit confused at what he did in the opening, with a turn 1 Trop Brainstorm into a turn 2 Forest->Pithing Needle naming Wasteland. In the meantime I had a Vial and Thalia in play. I put a bit of pressure on him, but he managed to slam a Show and Tell on 4 mana and get a Prime Time. It was soon over after that, as he gained life out of range of my beats, and accelerated his way into Emrakul as I had no StP for his Titan. I showed him no red as I felt the game was going south and would not have been able to make a comeback.

I sided into another Magus, 2 Priest, and 2 Judgments. I sided out my Mom's and a single Flickerwisp. In game 2, I went for a Recruiter on turn 3 to fetch Magus. He already fetched two basics, but I wanted to shut down his posts. He S&T'd into Primetime, and fetched two Vesuva to copy his two basics. I could not draw a removal spell to save my life, and though I was able to establish a board stall, he slammed a Platinum Emperion, and eventually got to 16 lands with his second Titan and brainstormed into Emrakul.

Thoughts:

This didn't feel that bad for me, honestly, if I had an StP in either game, I would've been able to push through enough damage to kill him, the Magus's were great and I wouldn't have been able to even make game 2 close without them. The Post plan gains way too much life to be dealt with otherwise. I think mono white D&T would've had a harder matchup with this deck than I did, to be honest.

Record: 0-1

Round 2

On the play against Jason with Burn

Jason drew some bad hands. I slammed a Vial into Thalia and he didn't recognize the Thalia Karakas trick and lost a precious burn spell to it. He ended up suiciding most of his creatures and then died.

In game 2 I got to do a sweet play as he end step price'd me down to 10, I realized he wanted to Price Fireblast me, so I didn't use my two ports and instead left up the mana to Stoneforge in my Batterskull and StP the token in response to lethal blast, then play my fifth land on my turn, equip Skull for the win.

Thoughts:

I don't think my opponent was a very experienced burn player and he missed a few things. He also drew quite poorly, so there's that. I think this matchup is about the same, but maybe it's marginally better with the Sudden Demises, and the ability to tutor for Kor Firewalker(which, again, is very hard to cast). Fetching for Plateaus are dangerous as now we get hit harder by Price, and fetching also loses precious life in the matchup. All in all I think the matchup is about the same, splash or no splash. Thalia shut him down really hard in both games, apparently, and that's just a success for our archetype in general.

Record: 1-1

Round 3

On the play vs George with Dredge

I saw this guy playing Dredge at the end of last round, so I knew what I was getting into.

I kept a hand that had the plan of turn 2 Stoneforge, turn 3 Batterskull, turn 4 bounce Batterskull to kill his Bridges. I... think that's the best I can hope for? Maybe like a double Thalia hand otherwise? I guess Thalia is also interference, but he combo'd off on turn 3 and killed me through Batterskull.

I sided into 2 Containment Priest, 2 Sudden Demise, 1 Firewalker, 2 Rest in Peace, and sided out 2 Magus of the Moon, 4 StP, and Mangara.

He mulled to 5 in game 2 and I had a Containment Priest. Then he mulled to 4 in game 3 and I had RiP and Containment Priest.

Thoughts:

This matchup is just about the same. Red boards don't have Cage, but we also have things like Mother of Runes on turn 1, and then we can Sudden Demise it at some point to kill Bridges, or use a Fireslinger at some point to kill bridges at a timely moment. As usual, just mulligan to your hate and get there.

Record: 2-1

Round 4:

On the play vs Billy with Aggro Loam

I thought this was lands initially, and didn't recognize such a weird manabase. He went Taiga into Scrubland, chalice on 1, then played Gaddock Teeg on turn 3. I decided to keep him off of green, and in game 1 I got there with Magus and Batterskull beats. In game 2 I couldn't draw a red land and died to Liliana into Garruk Relentless into second Liliana after I killed the first two walkers. In game 3, he kept too few lands and I got there with just good ol fashioned mana denial. The Magus of the Moon at the very end was only gravy as my Revoker named Mox Diamond and he had only one basic that I was porting.

Thoughts:

Hmm. I think Magus really helps this matchup, but I think it's also a good matchup either way for us, so it's not a big deal. The deck's manabase is really awkward. Revokers on Mox Diamonds and Wasting the crazy multicolored manabase stops a lot of his expensive plays.

Record: 3-1

Round 5:

On the draw against Brenden with Mono W Death and Taxes

Brenden was a really enthusiastic and talkative player, we talked a lot during the match about the differences between decks. He nutted me out in game 1 with Vial into 3 Flickerwisps, and 3 StP's. I had the Jitte, but couldn't get any hits in as he tempo'd me out and killed me with fliers.

In game 2, it went very long with crazy sequencing and plays on both sides. I think I lost ultimately due to a missideboard, and died to a super germ token with all the equipment on it.

Thoughts: Sudden Demise and Firewalker are great in this matchup, but the red splash also makes you more vulnerable to enemy wastelands. Magus isn't that great here, but Recruiter still gets a lot of value. I don't think I sideboarded correctly, and I think this matchup is still pretty damn close to even.

Record: 3-2

Round 6:

On the draw vs Bob with BUG Delver

I lost game 1 handily to Goyf beats. I couldn't keep up with his threats and Decay kept me from vialing in any surprises. Stifling my fetches was really painful.

In game 2 I boarded another Magus, Council's Judgments, and surprised him with a turn 3 Vial Recruiter into Vial Magus for a crushing victory.

In game 3 I got locked under my own Thalia when I couldn't kill his Deathrite because he stifle'd my Fetch twice. I was then quickly eaten by Goyfs.

Thoughts:

Man our Stifle matchup gets a lot worse! We're supposed to be mana denial, but it's been getting way more painful when you can't get a white source through Stifle to kill their threats. Magus is really good against them because of how few basics they run, but man is it annoying to get Stifled in a deck where you aren't used to that happening profitably.

Record: 3-3

Round 7

On the draw against Brody with Esper Deathblade

In game 1 he just had every piece of removal under the sun and crushed me with equipment. Disfigure, Swords, Decay, and Snapcasters. It was very painful, he killed my Mothers and then everything else I played.

In game 2 I established a winning board after a lot of grinding, but he was not playing very quickly. I would've called a judge for slow play, but we were both out of prize contention, so I didn't bother. We ended in at 1-0-1 with his victory, even though I had a winning board state. I would've won in two more turns.

Thoughts:

I think this matchup is better for us, as long as we can protect Magus. Magus is pretty much game over if he comes down, because we can deal with Deathrite. I was too late to land the Magus in game 1 and he forced me to block with it by equipping Jitte. My thought was that maybe we should be running some kind of artifact hate in the board, like Manic Vandal? Maybe? I think this matchup is overall better for us than it is for Mono White.



Overall Thoughts:

The red splash is not free, definitely not. I think the biggest downside of our splash is that it makes us way more vulnerable to Stifle. Another big downside is after we play Magus, it is often times an epic spell, where we don't get to do anything until he's dead. Of course, sometimes that's fine because we're locking out opponent out of the game and beating down, but other times, they have more basics than we do and we can't cast relevant things like Council's Judgment off of one Plains and we end up having to play a turn 8 top decked Vial and ticking it up so we can actually cast our subsequent spells.

In Painter, moon effects help them with their Ancient Tombs and Cities of Traitors. In our decks, it cripples our ability to cast our deck's many double white spells by removing Karakas, Plateaus, Cavern of Souls, and subsequent fetch lands as viable white sources. Magus of the Moon is a very decisive card. If you put this card into play and you don't have a Vial, be prepared to either win the game on the spot, or never cast another spell for many many turns.

That said, the upside is huge. I think many matchups get significantly, significantly better. My game vs Aggro loam allowed me to laugh in the face of multiple Mazes and crunch face without a care in the world. Slamming the Magus on a field of multiple duals is incredibly powerful and satisfying. However, it also goes against our usual mana denial strategy if our opponent fetched basics to play around Wastelands in the early game. Thalia effects are less valuable as the game goes on because our opponent now has mountains to pay through Thalia, and our Ports do nothing.

I'm not going to claim to know which version's better, but I think that:

Matchups like Infect, Lands/Loam, Elves, Post, are improved. If they're not running a lot of basics, use a land-based engine, or require Red Sideboard cards, I think our matchup against them does a lot better.

Matchups like Delver are worsened. I think the fact that we are vulnerable to Stifle now is a big problem.


I'm going to stick with red for now and test more, now that I understand the risk of playing Magus a lot more, maybe I'll wait longer before casting him, and fetch my second basic plains before doing so, maybe it's not as bad as I felt it was during the tournament. I really like the idea of Recruiter because it lets us run a ton of matchup relevant silver bullets, but maybe that isn't what this deck needs and I should just be slamming Vryn Wingmares. Time will tell, I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Barook

For Elves: If they can go off with Glimpse, they can try to put enough fodder into their GY to repeatly drain you with DRS + untap effects. So that doesn't necessarily work to stop them, but only to stall them a while.

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Is that really viable in practical terms? We have Revokers, Needles, and targeted removal that can hit DRS, especially once they're Moated/Peacekept. I'd say our ability to actually land a Moat or Peacekeeper in time may be the biggest concern, though our normal 2-drop hate can hopefully slow down the game long enough to get there.

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Originally Posted by Violence

Matchups like Delver are worsened. I think the fact that we are vulnerable to Stifle now is a big problem.

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That and 3/4 Delver decks (4/5?) run Red. (Grixis, RUG, BURG, and if you really want to count it, Patriot.
Hosing BUG (assuming no counters and no Decay) is fine, but the others just kill your dude like normal while a real 3-drop would've strengthened your position much more (Wisp flipping a dude or preventing a combat, Crusader deucing on them.)

Magus is mostly neat for buffing your game against the other grindy mid-range decks; the ones that run basics.
I think when you're looking at T3-T4; Aven Mindcensor is just better. Better clock (evasion), hoses other things including GSZ, SFM, and Tutors; and doesn't let on that something bad is going to happen unless you just have a terrible poker face; flash makes your equips better, and if they kill it, you may have already garnered actual card advantage.

Before knowing it was a thing, I was brewing a "Free Wins.dec" which was Thalia/Magus and friends, but I think it's just a bit too unstable since the things it wants to be doing are incompatible. One wants ramp and basics and all that, the other wants taxing and ports and wastelands. I think RW Taxes is looking to drop these Ports and Wastes for basics and drop some of the conditional dudes. I think Mom + Magus is pretty rockin'; but I think if you're looking for "Free Wins.dec"; going the RW D&T route will leave you with an incoherent strategy; Kinda like Magus in a Delver deck.

Why spend card after card building up the incremental land advantage, just to then play a card that cancels all of that work and nullifies future cards drawn in that vein?

I have done a ton of testing against Delver decks w/ RW and find the matchups quite favorable. RUG delver might be slightly less of a free win, but it's still a very favorable matchup overall. That's the only 3c Delver deck that I think Mono-W has a better matchup vs than R/W. BUG and Grixis are even better matchups because you have less of a chance of being tempo'd out and Revoker is a good card g1. U/R is clearly much worse for RW, but basically nobody plays it, especially w/ DTT gone.

Tonight I beat Grixis Delver w/ Magus. They all run a finite amount of removal spells. Throw out a Magus, don't treat it like a precious card, if they have a bolt you make them burn a bolt, if they don't have a bolt...they just lose. These decks feel like they run way more removal than they actually do.

Stifle is not a scary card, unless you have a mull to 6 w/ 2 fetches or something. Because you have so many stifle targets (Fetches, Vial, SFM, Recruiter, Flickerwisp, Equipment activation, Germ Token, RIP), it's actually pretty easy for them to stifle 'the wrong thing'. Safely fetch for a plains early and side out some Recruiters vs the faster Delver decks. I assumed Stifle was going to be much more of an issue for this deck when I started playing it, but it's really not. You're more scared of t1 Delver when you don't have a STP or Flickerwisp.

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

Is that really viable in practical terms? We have Revokers, Needles, and targeted removal that can hit DRS, especially once they're Moated/Peacekept. I'd say our ability to actually land a Moat or Peacekeeper in time may be the biggest concern, though our normal 2-drop hate can hopefully slow down the game long enough to get there.

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Revokers and Needles die to Reclamation Sage and their Abrupt Decays. So that isn't a long-term plan, either, especially when they go off with Glimpse. Just ask Julian, and he will tell you how viable it is. :wink:

@Violence: I agree with iatee regarding the Delver match-ups. Stifle is worse for RW than for MonoW, but it's mainly a matter of playing around it.

How was the MD Mangara? You sound like Cavern caused you major problems regarding the white/red count. Would you cut Caverns for Plateaus/fetches instead? Did the lack of additional flyers besides Flickerwisp hurt you?

@tescrin: While I agree there are some anti-synergistic nonbos within the RW build, it's a matter of testing to minimize those. I still think it's better positioned than the MonoW build right now.

Edit: Has anybody tried out Goblin Gardener or Avalance Riders to get rid of their pesky basic lands?

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Originally Posted by tescrin

Why spend card after card building up the incremental land advantage, just to then play a card that cancels all of that work and nullifies future cards drawn in that vein?

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If you go t1 Vial and use Wasteland/Ports to muck up their first few plays, vialing in a Magus lets you win even if they do happen to have plenty of lands and a better hand than you do. Against some decks (Lands, 12 Post), they're just going to win the 'future cards drawn in that vein' game. In those games Wasteland/Ports are just there to help you hold down the fort until Magus arrives.

In general Magus is a complement to Port/Wasteland/Thalia, not a substitute and the threat of Blood Moon is a taxing effect in itself. It's not the end of the world if you draw some mountain-Karakases and mountain-Ports if your opponent can't play spells anymore. Like Batterskull or Jitte, the card is dead in some situations, and wins you the game easily in others. That's why I like only 2 main + Recruiting it when necessary. It doesn't work well w/ every situation you're in and can be unnecessary or even bad for you, but hey I lost a game the other day because I couldn't hardcast my Batterskull thanks to my own Thalia. That doesn't make those cards bad in a deck together, it was just an awkward draw. Batterskull is a card with awesome power in some situations, Magus is a card with awesome power in other situations, running a deck w/ both Stoneforges and Recruiters gives you a pretty good shot at having the right one when you need it.

I didn't like Aven Mindcensor even when I played Mono-W, it always felt awkward and narrow. Especially w/ the Mono-W lists going heavy on Wingmare, I don't think you can afford any more x/1s. It's certainly good *against* R/W taxes though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barook

Edit: Has anybody tried out Goblin Gardener or Avalance Riders to get rid of their pesky basic lands?

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I think they're probably too slow overall and someone playing one-two basic lands isn't *that* much of a concern...though Avalanche Riders does have the 'can be tutored' and 'great flickerwisp target' upside and it's a human...still, I feel like 4 drops need to have some really game breaking ability to be worth it and 'combines well w/ Magus' isn't enough.

On playing around Stifle: Yeah I think I just have to do that more often. I do it with Miracles when I play Miracles, and I do it with Infect when I play Infect. I don't know why it was such a shock to me, but it was.

On fliers: I do think the deck would like a few more fliers, but I don't want to cut important pieces for them. I actually don't know what I would cut, to be honest.

On Magus playing: Yeah I am inexperienced with this version, so maybe I just need to play more and realize when I shouldn't be playing Magus, and when I need to pull the trigger and win the game. I probably misplayed a few times in that regard.

hi there all,

i was wandering if there is consensus on boarding out parts of the "pillar equipments" ( jitte, sofa, batterskull ) on specific matchups for both the mono w as the R/W build as they seem a rock solid part in both versions
I was going over Wescoe' s sb plan for the recent gp seattle and jitte or skull always remained in the deck for his sb plan in all matchups ( jitte only left for onmitell..)


thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Violence

On playing around Stifle: Yeah I think I just have to do that more often. I do it with Miracles when I play Miracles, and I do it with Infect when I play Infect. I don't know why it was such a shock to me, but it was.

On fliers: I do think the deck would like a few more fliers, but I don't want to cut important pieces for them. I actually don't know what I would cut, to be honest.

On Magus playing: Yeah I am inexperienced with this version, so maybe I just need to play more and realize when I shouldn't be playing Magus, and when I need to pull the trigger and win the game. I probably misplayed a few times in that regard.

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How was Mangara in general and how do you feel about Cavern?

To me, Cavern is kind of a hot-topic. While I hate it in MonoW, i kinda like it in RW due to many humans. But I'm well aware that it increases the chance of manascrew in a not-insignificant amount.

I'm also pondering if I should switch one of my 2 Council's Judgment for 1 copy +1 Mangara in the board for Imperial tutoring goodness. But then again, I hate Mangara for being a slow, fragile PoS.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by heyoka

hi there all,

i was wandering if there is consensus on boarding out parts of the "pillar equipments" ( jitte, sofa, batterskull ) on specific matchups for both the mono w as the R/W build as they seem a rock solid part in both versions
I was going over Wescoe' s sb plan for the recent gp seattle and jitte or skull always remained in the deck for his sb plan in all matchups ( jitte only left for onmitell..)


thanks

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The article is really strange actually. He says Cavern is very good against Storm's FOWs and implies that MUD plays Magus of the Moon. (He probably meant one of their similar taxing effects like Lodestone? Anyway, Magus is a good card *against* MUD.)

Wescoe's sb plan has all kinds of weird stuff going on. I think it ultimately comes down to him playing legacy maybe once a year. I think when you're a player of his caliber you can not be very familiar with the format and still go 11-4 (really 8-4), just by not making any in-game mistakes. I think he came to the conclusion that Spirit of the Labyrinth is not that great, especially in today's meta, but people who have been playing Mono-W more regularly already knew that.

Weird things in his sb plan include:

- Not siding in Pithing Needle vs D+T, Stoneblade, Maverick, Elves or MUD but siding it in vs Storm and Dredge where it's far more marginal.
- He doesn't side in Ethersworn Canonist vs Infect and sides out SoFI - which isn't as good as Jitte, but can do a good impression in a pinch.
- Siding out SoFI vs RUG Delver. Not your best equipment but still generally wins the game if you get it on a flyer or Crusader.
- He sides out all 4 STP vs Miracles, which I think is a death sentence now that Miracles is using Mentor as their main win con.
- Doesn't bring in Relic-Warder vs Sneak (the plan doesn't list it vs Affinity, but he mentions it, so there's probably some typo there.)
- Sides out Mirran Crusaders vs Reanimator, when he can attack past Griselbrand and doesn't die to most of their post-board removal, but doesn't side out Jitte, which is really not a card you want very often, and becomes even worse without your Crusaders to put it on.
- He also doesn't side out Jitte vs 12 Post but sides out all of his STPs. As with Reanimator most of 12 Post's bombs are actually STP-able (Titan, Platinum Emperion, non-Emrakul eldrazi.) It sucks to give them a million life and if they got a Titan out they still got a ton of value out of the sequence, but still, you don't auto-lose at that point if you have a STP, so I don't think you can go down to zero.

Overall I think the amount of equipment you side out often depends on how much you have to side in w/ your particular sb. Mono-W boards are more e-tutor/non-creature heavy, and sometimes you just won't have the relevant cards to side in to justify siding out Jitte, even if it feels very weak in the matchup. RW boards can be more creature heavy so you can replace it with a more immediate threat vs combo - but in some cases the creatures that are left to come in still might not be better than a slow piece of equipment. e.g. Containment Priest is probably not better than a Jitte vs Storm, because it just makes Vial bad.

Generally speaking I don't want Jitte vs Storm, Reanimator, Lands, SnS, Omni, 12 Post. So - decks that play no creatures or really really big creatures.

I don't want Batterskull vs Infect, 12 Post, Omni. So - decks that really don't care about your life total.

I side out SoFI pretty infrequently, I think as long as you're keeping in any SfMs you want the potential for the card advantage engine. Even against something like Maverick or Nic Fit, where the protection is basically useless, they're going to have to play around any of our creatures getting through with SoFI. I guess I side it out against Elves, because you just have so much to side in, it's never your first target with SfM, and it's not good without a flyer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barook

How was Mangara in general and how do you feel about Cavern?

To me, Cavern is kind of a hot-topic. While I hate it in MonoW, i kinda like it in RW due to many humans. But I'm well aware that it increases the chance of manascrew in a not-insignificant amount.

I'm also pondering if I should switch one of my 2 Council's Judgment for 1 copy +1 Mangara in the board for Imperial tutoring goodness. But then again, I hate Mangara for being a slow, fragile PoS.

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I think if you play Mangara it has to be main, because even vs the decks that he's good against he's going to be much worse g2. I've been going back and forth between Mangara/Wingmare/Crusader for my 2 flex spots main, and I think I like Mangara+Wingmare w/ Crusader in the board. I do find myself tutoring for Wingmare frequently enough to think it probably should stay as a one-of.

I think these things are more of a meta-decision than anything else though, against some local meta that's filled with slower janky combo decks like MUD, it's nice to have a Mangara. Going to a serious tournament expecting a lot of Shardless, Crusader might be necessary main. I'm receiving my Magus of the Wheels in the mail soon, and I'll probably just put one of those guys in that flex spot for a while, see how it goes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iatee

Generally speaking I don't want Jitte vs Storm, Reanimator, Lands, SnS, Omni, 12 Post. So - decks that play no creatures or really really big creatures.

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I think Storm is the only MU I ever pull it in. It takes a turn to get going but swinging for 5 on a 1/x is fine and building counters so you can threaten Reanimator's fatties with +2/+2's or simply giving yourself a life boost to get another swing in is fine.

It's also good for killing your own guys. The other day I was building up my flyers while reanimator was on 4 life IIRC; once I had enough guys I just swung and then Plow'd the guy that GBrand blocked (he had archtype out.) Jitte can do the same thing (on offense or defense.) Hardly card of the year in the MU, but it can skew the expected life totals so your opponent dies to unknown or unexpected information.

Yeah those seem like reasonable uses for a grindier game. Like I said, I think it's more a question of how much you have to side in, like if you have tons of Containment Priests, RIPs, E tutors, Cage, Council's Judgments, then Jitte might not make the cut. It's really not a card you're thrilled to see in your opening hand against someone doing something broken t2/t3. But it never does absolutely nothing, even in the worst matchups.

Been browsing a lot through this thread lately, and I have some questions, that I hope you guys can answer:

1) What is D&T's bad match ups?

2) Does Vryn Wingmare help improve any of these bad match ups?

Thanks! :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sigar

Been browsing a lot through this thread lately, and I have some questions, that I hope you guys can answer:

1) What is D&T's bad match ups?

2) Does Vryn Wingmare help improve any of these bad match ups?

Thanks! :)

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1) Punishing Jund and Elves are the two most popular decks which are truly just awful. Glass cannon combo decks like OOPS! All Spells, Belcher, and Leylines are also awful, but extremely rare.

2) It doesn't improve any of the bad matchups, but it does improve matchups of other popular decks. I personally don't think Wingmare is that good as any more that a one of, but others have had success with it.

Beyond Jund, Elves and T1 combo - 12-Post, Infect are also pretty unfavored, and I don't love playing against Stoneblade builds that are playing a tons of TNNs.

Wingmare is doing what D+T already was doing, and those decks are bad matchups because they're generally not too bothered by what D+T already does. That doesn't mean Wingmare is bad - I think the 4 Wingmare builds push the already 'weak to Thalia effects' matchups (Combo, Delver) into even more favorable territory. Sometimes you'll play 5 of those decks in a row and they'll barely cast a spell. But it does put all of your eggs into one basket, and the decks that are weak to Thalia effects tend to have some anti-Thalia sb cards, all of which also hit Wingmare.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iatee

The article is really strange actually. He says Cavern is very good against Storm's FOWs and implies that MUD plays Magus of the Moon. (He probably meant one of their similar taxing effects like Lodestone? Anyway, Magus is a good card *against* MUD.)

Wescoe's sb plan has all kinds of weird stuff going on. I think it ultimately comes down to him playing legacy maybe once a year. I think when you're a player of his caliber you can not be very familiar with the format and still go 11-4 (really 8-4), just by not making any in-game mistakes. I think he came to the conclusion that Spirit of the Labyrinth is not that great, especially in today's meta, but people who have been playing Mono-W more regularly already knew that.

Weird things in his sb plan include:

- Not siding in Pithing Needle vs D+T, Stoneblade, Maverick, Elves or MUD but siding it in vs Storm and Dredge where it's far more marginal.
- He doesn't side in Ethersworn Canonist vs Infect and sides out SoFI - which isn't as good as Jitte, but can do a good impression in a pinch.
- Siding out SoFI vs RUG Delver. Not your best equipment but still generally wins the game if you get it on a flyer or Crusader.
- He sides out all 4 STP vs Miracles, which I think is a death sentence now that Miracles is using Mentor as their main win con.
- Doesn't bring in Relic-Warder vs Sneak (the plan doesn't list it vs Affinity, but he mentions it, so there's probably some typo there.)
- Sides out Mirran Crusaders vs Reanimator, when he can attack past Griselbrand and doesn't die to most of their post-board removal, but doesn't side out Jitte, which is really not a card you want very often, and becomes even worse without your Crusaders to put it on.
- He also doesn't side out Jitte vs 12 Post but sides out all of his STPs. As with Reanimator most of 12 Post's bombs are actually STP-able (Titan, Platinum Emperion, non-Emrakul eldrazi.) It sucks to give them a million life and if they got a Titan out they still got a ton of value out of the sequence, but still, you don't auto-lose at that point if you have a STP, so I don't think you can go down to zero.

Overall I think the amount of equipment you side out often depends on how much you have to side in w/ your particular sb. Mono-W boards are more e-tutor/non-creature heavy, and sometimes you just won't have the relevant cards to side in to justify siding out Jitte, even if it feels very weak in the matchup. RW boards can be more creature heavy so you can replace it with a more immediate threat vs combo - but in some cases the creatures that are left to come in still might not be better than a slow piece of equipment. e.g. Containment Priest is probably not better than a Jitte vs Storm, because it just makes Vial bad.

Generally speaking I don't want Jitte vs Storm, Reanimator, Lands, SnS, Omni, 12 Post. So - decks that play no creatures or really really big creatures.

I don't want Batterskull vs Infect, 12 Post, Omni. So - decks that really don't care about your life total.

I side out SoFI pretty infrequently, I think as long as you're keeping in any SfMs you want the potential for the card advantage engine. Even against something like Maverick or Nic Fit, where the protection is basically useless, they're going to have to play around any of our creatures getting through with SoFI. I guess I side it out against Elves, because you just have so much to side in, it's never your first target with SfM, and it's not good without a flyer.

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It is true that sideboard plans depends on the list you are playing. In particular I agree with Wescoe in some discussion points:

- I sometimes side out SoFaI against RUG Delver, specially with Vryn Wingmare's version because this equipment is worse than Batterskull and Umezawa's Jitte in this matchup in lots of situations, usually will need a flyer to work over Tarmogoyf and it is too slow against a high clock like this. But depends on the list, I prefer side out it before than Mirran Crusader or Vryn Wingmare.

- I always side out the full set of StP against Miracles. For me does not matter the version. I do that because I do not want draw dead cards, I consider we have enough penalty depending on topdeck so I want to reduce dead cards. Usually side out a Plains and consider I have enough removal with Cataclysm, Ratchet Bomb and Council's Judgment. Des not matter StP against Monastery Mentor because when he hits the field the oponent very often has Counterbalance + Top unless he has the neccesity of a chump blocker so it is probably that StP be irrelevant.
- Do the same against 12-Post because when Titan or an eldrazi touch the battlefield you have lost. You will eat bomb after bomb until you cannot fight more. So here I prefer more Needles, Ports and Wastelands. I side out Umezawa's Jitte too of course. Same mechanic against Lands. We want to fight before Marit Lage not after. Consider Flickerwisp, Needles and Karakas enough. Usually 0 StP in those matchups.

Sorry if you read some mistakes. My english is nearly to poor and I am writing with Tapatalk.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iatee (this is about the RUG matchup)

If you go t1 Vial and use Wasteland/Ports to muck up their first few plays, vialing in a Magus lets you win even if they do happen to have plenty of lands and a better hand than you do.

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Yeah, but this is living the dream. You beat half the DtB forum just with that opening. I prefer facing RUG with monowhite, and it is not a close call. I find that the red really plays into their wheelhouse rather than the other way round. The entire red package of D+T feels win-more to me anyway. Monowhite lets me leverage my skill and knowledge of timing and interactions rather than just landing a killer card. I guess it is the idea that I have more control over my fate. That's really what D+T classically does, rarely more clearly seen than against RUG.

I dunno, I feel like real control over your topdecks is precisely what Mono-w has always lacked, which is why Recruiter is actually the key addition and Moon is more of a band-aid for certain bad matchups and a way to cheat easy wins. D+T is the only deck in the DtB section with no card draw or card selection (beyond SFM) and that's not a small disadvantage when any game goes long. There's no controlling your fate if your top 4 cards are lands.

I got a playset of Magus of the Wheel in the mail today, we'll see how that guy plays. How many have you been running main for the lists you've tested with?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iatee

I dunno, I feel like real control over your topdecks is precisely what Mono-w has always lacked, which is why Recruiter is actually the key addition and Moon is more of a band-aid for certain bad matchups and a way to cheat easy wins. D+T is the only deck in the DtB section with no card draw or card selection (beyond SFM) and that's not a small disadvantage when any game goes long. There's no controlling your fate if your top 4 cards are lands.

I got a playset of Magus of the Wheel in the mail today, we'll see how that guy plays. How many have you been running main for the lists you've tested with?

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3 recruiter / 2 magus or 2 recruiters / 3 magus (I personnally run 2/3 but more because I don't have the third recruiter).

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Originally Posted by Tylert

3 recruiter / 2 magus or 2 recruiters / 3 magus (I personnally run 2/3 but more because I don't have the third recruiter).

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I like the the 3/2 split. Magus is a worse Gray Ogre in certain match-ups, so you don't want to draw too many of them there. More Recruiters also means more flexibility to find whatever you need, including SB bullets. E.g. against Dredge, I played T1 Vial, T2 RiP (which got Nature's Claim'ed), T3 Recruiter into Vial --> Containment Priest, salt ensued. :tongue:

I still run a 3rd Magus in the board for the match-ups where he's really needed.

I'm still not sure whether I should run 3 Sudden Demise or 2 Demise/1 Fireslinger in the board. I'd love to hear more input regarding Fireslinger.

Other than that, I really like my current configuration.