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Against dredge, it's-4 decay, -4 hymn, -1 dismember, +4 pierce, +3 surgical, +1 crypt, +1 jitte (used to recover from early beats).Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit
Against reanimator/tinfins/oops all spells, I keep in hymn and take out decays and dismember for 3 surgical, 1 crypt, and take out an appropriate amount of daze to fit in 4 pierce.
EDIT: sorry for double post; phone app is dumb
I'm testing for the SCG Open in Atlanta, just did a set against Jund. Sinkhole is pretty much the greatest feeling in the world. Went something like 4-2 and the games felt very good postboard.
What do your sideboards look like? I see Barbed Blightning has 4 pieces of grave hate and a pile of Pierces, are most of you guys playing so much grave hate?
How are the Goblins and Elves matchups? I feel like Engineered Plague is worth a couple slots because it's good against them and it's also pretty good against TES, Belcher, and ANT (mostly for Empty, but also the occasional Bob).
My board right now looks like:
4 Sinkhole
1 Life from the Loam
1 Disfigure
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Engineered Plague
(I'm playing a 3-1-1 split of Decay, Disfigure, and Dismember main)
How do you guys feel about Flusterstorm? It should be better than Pierce against Storm and Reanimator variants, but worse against Sneak and Show. Not sure how much of an issue that matchup is; seems like it could be rough if they get Leyline of Sanctity. Any comments welcome.
So you guys have all decided that the best way to fight Jund, a Legacy deck with 24 lands, 4 Deathrite Shamans, and a plethora of 1 and 2-cc spells, is to play Sinkhole??? I just don't see how this could possibly be good. Has the Sinkhole strategy actually put up good numbers somewhere?
You're fucking joking, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
Yeah its twenty four lands, but four are wasteland and thus don't really count.
The two ccs are either mana intensive (decay, hymn) or relatively easy to deal with (bob is made of glass; goyf is blocked by goyf.)
DRS is dazed or removed early. Lilly is a nuisance, like pfire, but can be dealt with.
What you are completely missing is the fact that the only thing that truly separates us from Jund (and really the only thing they have that I am scared of) is a four cmc BBE. that's what sinkhole is preventing, and it does it admirably.
The idea is dick around as little as possible vs them. Sinkhole generates tempo that allows us to deal lethal before they recover. This is also the idea behind hymn and daze: play it early and pound them in the face before they recover.
But hey I could be totally off base. What's your anti-jund tech?
On paper it does indeed look awful. However in practice, it's much better than it looks. TA has an unfavorable match up against Jund; we can't go for the long haul. Our best strategy is to play the tempo game and punish them for playing their bigger spells. It's pretty much a race - can we deal the lethal 20 before they get their game on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
There are some things you need to consider though. If they have an early DSR or Confidant and you don't deal with it early, you're going to have a bad time. It's more about technique and practice; even more so if you plan to run certain cards like Submerge. I also play with LftL so I can make more use of my wastelands. I believe most TA decks do this already.
I am. I love Ponder. Maximizing cantrips is one of the most reliable, skill-testing, and rewarding ways to gain solid win margin over your opponent. Reducing your chances to use your ability/experience is not worth playing with your hand face up by passing with 3 mana open in a tap-out deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
I disagree with 100% of this post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
Wasteland for TA is essentially a spell since the only card common to the deck with colorless in the casting cost if Tarmogoyf. For Jund, it is routinely a land since the deck has many more cards with a colorless mana or two in the cost. Jund also has more lands than we do and basics to ensure getting past being stuck on a low land count. Since we've cut Stifle from the main, Jund's wastelands are almost strictly better than ours in that match-up. I say almost because Wasteland is a stupid card that increases variance and sometimes you'll just "get them" but most of the time Jund has better Wastelands.
Similar to the rest of the deck, it's important to realize that Jund is the control deck vs the TA match-up. This means that the more land drops the Jund player gets, the more you're likely to lose and it forces you to close the game out fast. Normally TA can trade disruption with the opponent favorably because it's undercosted (FoW, Daze, Snuff Out, etc). Due to the nature of Jund's cards, these are losing situations rather than winning ones. For example, it's no good to Daze DRS, because for the most part trading 1 mana and a card in the early game is worth it to trade you a card and set you back a land drop. If you have a clock, the tempo-efficient disruption is a better deal, but Jund overloads on removal or cards that act like removal to remove your clock that can be converted into other utility as needed. Punishing Fire, Lightning Bolt, Abrupt Decay, Liliana of the Veil, any discard effects, or Sylvan Library / Dark Confidant / Bloodbraid Elf going into those cards. Or DRS slowing down your Tombstalker / Tarmogoyf. Or their Tarmogoyf blocking yours. If you've been keeping track, you'd realize that I just listed every spell in the entire deck. All of them can reduce your clock to ensure land drops and a transition into a crushing mid-game. For the same reasons, Jund has better Tarmogoyfs than TA does because Jund hitting land drops for 3 turns is worse for you than you swinging at the opponent for 3 turns is for them even before DRS complicates that. Bob being made of glass doesn't matter because you have the same removal options for it regardless and if it sits there you lose to it. I can keep going, but I think the horse is dead.
My anti-jund tech is keeping in Darkblast to kill Bob (worst card against us), to mitigate how bad Hymn hits, to have a trump for the Tarmogoyf stalls, and to power out Tombstalker through DRS. Even that's not great though because it doesn't solve DRS slowing down Tarmogoyf clocks or Liliana of the Veil. You can finesse through a win sometimes but for the most part it's a bad match-up for the same reasons that Maverick and Goblins are tough and one of many factors to consider when choosing to play the deck. BBE might be the least scary part of the deck because any board control makes your life harder and everything else in the deck does it cheaper than BBE does.
Sinkhole is good because it makes their deck clunky while ours is not and we get to play more cards than they do. Even then, this is much more relevant when you can keep a beater on the table. If they open with some Shamans and don't get land screwed, for the most part Jund can reasonably keep TA off of Goyf/Stalker kills long enough to get back into the game through sinkholes.
If I would be Jund expecting BUG I would board out my bloodbraid elfs & bring in 2-3 Life from the Loam. I would rely on winning the long game with Bob, Library, Liliana & Punishing Fire. On the play I would focus on a good curve (developing) my board so your sinkhole plan cannot really work out or is at least is much weakened. On the draw I would value lands & pointed discard pretty highly to make sure I don’t play into your “removal/daze/sinkhole” tempo package. Overall I would feel good about my hymns beeing very strong whereas opponents hymns can hit fires & loams. Also I would like that my removal count (some uncounterable or recurrable) (almost) matches the number of my opponents threats. I would play 2-3 red blasts as additional ways to handle delver but focus them on countering my opponents only trumps: cantrips.
Pre-board I would feel pretty comfortable about my ability to handle your threats and develop my manabase. I would accept the fact that BUG Delver can have some pretty strong draws on the play, but overall I would feel positive about my matchup% and smile about people thinking they have an edge since they are in for a surprise meeting me if they make it to the top tables.
Fortunately, I'm not expecting to play you piloting Jund :cool: Your plan sounds very solid. The only reason I'm expecting the matchup in Atlanta is because 3 people top 8'd last time, the invitational is going to have a ton of noobs who want to play modern in legacy and will scrub out and play in the open, and people expect a lot of midrange blue decks at the invitational. Jund hasn't exactly made a splash since SCG Atlanta last.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
I'm friends with 2 of the 3 people that top 8'd with Jund, and both had just picked it up for the first time, and neither were the innovative type. I really don't expect that sort of person to be playing Jund, honestly.
As far as thoughts on the matchup after playing it, yes, they have a ton of lands, removal, and threats, but they have no way to draw them at the right time! I did minimal work to keep my opponent on 1 colored source a couple of games, and he drew no lands for a few turns, then got flooded. If they have a nut draw (especially one with PFire), it can be hard to stop from what it seems like, but we have much better tools to find what we need. Sure their Wastelands will always have a target, but our curve is so much lower than theirs. We're filled with 1s and 2s, they're filled with 2s and 3s.
I don't have any kind of awesome anti-Jund tech personally. Divert has proven to be very good in this matchup though. Diverting their Decays, Punishing Fires, Bolts, Thoughtseizes, or Hymns are all really strong plays.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
If you Daze the opponent's DRS, your Sinkhole plan is not going to be effective. If they are on the draw, they will still be able to play a 2-drop on turn 2 and a 2-drop on turn 3 after you Sinkhole them on turn 3. If they are on the play, the Sinkhole won't even hit them until after they have played a 3-drop (Liliana) regardless of whether or not you Daze their Deathrite Shaman.
Sinkhole is the kind of card that might win a few games because you get lucky that your 24 land opponent kept a 2-lander and doesn't draw another land for 7 turns, but Sinkhole will lose the game if your opponent's deck operates like percentages say it should and hits its 3rd land drop on turn 3. If you are Sinkholing them, you are probably not killing their Bob that will draw them more lands. If you kill their Bob, you are not Sinkholing them, and the Sinkholes lose a lot of value as the game progresses. Also 4 SB slots is a lot, and it seems like it could be used for something more consistently good against specific matchups rather than a concession to the fact that you can only beat Jund with getting lucky on their manascrew. In the end, I don't know if there is anything you can play to make the Jund matchup actually good, but at least try a couple Divert. Some number of Disfigure/Deathmark are also important so that you keep your opponents' Deathrites off the board in the early game while spending minimal resources to do it.
Fair, Divert could be good.
It seems like literally the only matchup the thread has talked about for the past 3 pages is jund. How about Sneak & Show? It seems like Leyline of Sanctity would make it difficult to disrupt them enough. Are you all running Pierces or Venser or anything for this matchup?
Any other matchups you'd prefer not to see?
I have 4 pierce in the board for any combo; surgicals, too, if I can fit them in. At the MIQ I was able to beat enter the infinite combo just by countering stuff, even with a hymn in hand. Maybe he mulled to it because I double-hymned him G1 :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmuant
The discussion is jund-trending I think, because combo is relatively easy for TA, at least imo.
@maximus: if you had bothered to finish quoting me, you'd see that I also mentioned the 4 is necessary for ponder. I was simply saying it's nowhere near the level of amazing that brainstorm is, so I don't see your gripe.
Nor do I see your argument against Sinkhole. The best thing you can possibly do, at least in my experience, is lead off with a DRS, then follow that up with Waste and Sinkhole next turn, at least if you are on the play. The draw is more difficult as they will lead with a DRS almost always, so I'd probably play a delver, followed by a hymn or removal for their Bob.
@Patrunk: Percentages are percentages, but they are never guarantees. I really hate it when people complain about luck in MTG, in any form--winning, losing, drawing certain cards, etc. It's part of the game, and part of what makes it interesting. Yes, sinkhole relies on some luck, but so does hymn and, last I checked, no one here has ever complained about that card. And I do agree with phazon that Jund players, as a general whole, are not savvy in Legacy; most of the time they may very well be Modern immigrants, or people who want to drop Bloodbraid and win.
Regardless, as I'm sure everyone on this (and any other non-combo) thread will agree, Jund is never an easy matchup. Sinkhole is good because it can screw them over while also totally blowing out Control and random archetypes (X-Post, NicFit, etc.) if played at the right time in the game.
If we want to talk non-sinkhole, I agree Divert could be good, but like Daze it's stock decreases the more the game goes on. Stifle has proven well in my testing (Cascade, fetches, DRS, Lilly, all worthwhile at some point) and Disfigure/Submerge are also obvious choices. It also is difficult to keep mana up for anything in this deck, esp. against a deck as agressively mana-taxing at Jund, so that, too, might be something to consider.
Question: has anyone ever considered Submerging a Goyf/DRS in response to Cascade? Seems like a great way to prevent them from cascading into something nastier, but also blanks the removal.
Regarding narrow sideboard options to combat jund, has anyone considered 4 obstinate baloth? Once it gets in in play it is pretty hard to deal with and attacks though everything but goyf. Also reasonable against any other hymn based decks... Just a thought.
Yes it has been thought of before if you look back a few pages. Some people are testing it and we'll see how it works. I believe that other threads are also talking about wilf-leaf liege also as another possibility. The way I see it is that it seems good but it requires testing and it's pretty narrow. You'd have to expect Jund and similar decks that run Liliana and Hymns in order for it to work. Even then there may be better choices.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razorwynd
For now, I'm using that one SB as clique and it's been great.
Been thinking about this recently, wanted some input from y'all:
who do you play first, DRS or Delver?
Say you've got an opener with two fetches, daze, DRS, Delver, Brainstorm, Hymn. Do you drop Delver first to get in the beats? Or DRS to ensure stability?
Obviously it depends on the matchup sometimes; I was wondering from a more general point of view.
Against an unknown opponent I would say play DRS first, always. DRS shines during early game giving you opportunity (if not disrupted) to play T2 Hymn AND Delver with Daze backup. You can even protect your DRS with your Daze and still be able to hymn next turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
I would like to hear some scenarios where this line of play is not the correct one.
Given that example hand, the correct choice definitely seems to be DRS first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
Let's say the hand is a little more shaky though. Then we have a real point of discussion.
Against an unknown opponent, I'd drop DRS first. It gives me more options on turn two. However, depending on the matchup, it might be correct to drop Delver first -- both to establish a clock, or sometimes to act as just a lightning rod for removal so you can better protect a DRS.
I would say to play DRS turn 1 against everything other than non-GY based combo decks. Even then if you have Hymn in hand against the non-GY combo decks, DRS is probably still the better play over Delver.
I think I would apply a similar rule of thumb that I used playing RG Aggro in Standard: run out the Mana Dork on the play - draw if you have nothing better to do - turn 1, and the beater on the draw. Granted, DRS is so much more powerful than your average Mana Dork so it's harder to apply in this case, but it's still valid in some cases. Losing your guy to a counter or removal turn 1 on the draw is rough no matter how you look at it, but I somehow found it worse to lose a Mana Dork because I feel like I've fallen further behind.
I'm not 100% sure. My tendency is to lead with Deathrite Shaman over Delver, except against non-graveyard-based combo decks, as someone had already mentioned.
However, when I was playing Zoo, I would routinely lead with Wild Nacatl on turn 1 followed by Noble Hierarch (and a Bolt for a potential blocker or a Wasteland as a tempo play) on turn 2, unless I knew I was playing against something like Dragon Stompy. If you compare Nacatl to Delver and Hierarch to Deathrite, it's clear that this is the opposite of the sequence I suggest for Team America.
This may have to do with the fact that Nacatls are almost guaranteed to be "pumped", whereas Delvers get more value when you can set up their flips with cantrips on turn 2 anyway. Also, a turn 2 Hierarch gives you a nice Exalted boost when your Nacatl attacks.
Thanks, I was leaning towards DRS, but there's a lot of non-gy combo (combo in general) in NY state, so I have been forced to run out t1 delvers. I've also found that I have preferred to play against combo with TA, rather than midrangy stuff, simply because it can blow out combo so well.
Has anyone considered stifle and thoughtseize in here? I've considered dropping hymn and something else to make room, but idk if that's bad.