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np... I though I was gonna get hated out of the Zoo thread because I posted a Sligh list, but I'm glad you guys likey. I've been playing pretty much that exact list (with only a few subtle changes) for a really long time, so there isn't really any new tech in it or anything.Quote:
I actually really like the looks of this build, thanks for sharing <3
Actually, to counter Menendian's argument of Loam Lion vs Kird Ape, I'd say that Ape is better against blood moon effects which tend to be much more popular than Forge Tenders. On the down side, he helps justify the use of CoP:Red, where the lion doesn't.
Steve might consider a mostly green/white version running little red. The use of the ape does however, add less "color consistency" to the deck, but that is considered a weapon when Iona can be across the table on occasion as well, and more often than not, they'll name white.
To sum it up, Kird Ape seems to have a slight advantage over Loam Lion.
Another important advantadge of lion over kird ape is that lion is white and the lion cant be target of blue elemental blast.
This is cheating, even if you "avoid a penalty." It doesn't even lie in a gray area; It's just cheating.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
So dude, tell me what makes that list better than a regular burn deck. Sure, in vacuum it's a turn faster which seems nice, but in a real game of magic your opponent now has real targets for his removal ( as in, creatures that don't vanish anyway but would do 2 damage at least ) and you open yourself in just losing to a random stifle. With such a low landcount you will also often get ( and get to keep ) 1 land hands which makes the lynx worse.
I like the idea of sligh zoo a lot, but I don't see how this list works well.
What makes the deck better than a regular burn deck is that it has a goldfish that is an entire turn faster.
Most decks run 4 removal spells maindeck, that they aren't guarunteed to have during the first few turns of the game. Playing 2 creatures early can also circumvent removal. Even if Nacatl only gets 1 swing for 3 damage, he's still a Lightning Bolt.
Typically, the only matchups which run more than 4 removal spells maindeck, usually tend to fall prey to a regular burn plan. Most control decks fit the bill here. The mirror matchup (Zoo) is the other matchup that runs enough removal to matter.
Against most control decks, this deck can easily race alot of sideboard options they have (lifegain). If they resolve CounterTop in time, that can cause fits, but not all control decks run CounterTop, and not all decks that do can assemble it before they die to the incredibly fast goldfish.
Against the mirror, I run enough removal to keep them off of guys just as easily as they can keep me off of guys, so the matchup is fairly draw dependant. I run more business because I operate off of a lower curve and run less lands, so I have a slight (card advantage) edge in that regard. I'm also running the 12 most efficient creatures possible for their damage to cost ratio, whereas Zoo runs less aggressive guys with Kird Ape/Loam Lion.
I agree that Stifle can cause this deck some problems, due to its heavy fetchland count. Luckily, Canadian Threshold has been seeing less play lately, as that was really the worst of the tempo decks against Sligh. New Horizons plays a much slower gameplan and has much less removal, which gives Sligh plenty of time to recover and end it.
I can see being skeptical of the list, and not seeing how it works, but it does work pretty well. Like I said, the deck becomes much more of a glass cannon, but the trade off of versatility (like Qasali Pridemage) for a much more aggressive gameplan that is less dependant on creatures, opting to run a heavy burn count, has its advantages. It can sometimes be easy to hate out an aggro deck, and cards like Moat don't stunt a burn heavy list nearly as bad as a traditional Zoo deck (when it doesn't draw Qasali), for example. I'm not saying this deck is better than your average Zoo deck, but it has its niche.
Rancor + Berserk in Zoo.
Turn 1 > Land > Steppe Link
Turn 2 > Fetch > Rancor = 4
Turn 2 > Fetch > Crack Both Fetches > Berserk = 16
Have a burn spell in your hand and its GG if nothing gets countered. And thats only perfect situation.
Rancor and Berserk are still great spells that really help zoo out. Will post my friends list when I find it.
While drawing one of those late game still isn't a total bust, what would be coming out to make room for those cards? It seems that burn is just a better source of damage, because it is also removal and a valuable weapon against many matchups. Even without Rancor-Berserk, I've ended the game on turn three before thanks to burn. The opening hand was Lynx, 2 fetch, Pridemage, 3 Bolts, and I drew into a fetch then a bolt after 2 shuffles. Lucksacked it, I know, but if the deck wasn't already super consistend it would never happen
It's not by any means an unwinnable matchup (depending on your list/sb). I played a list with 4 KotR and 4 wastes (2 bujuka bogs in the sb) and won two matches against lands in our last local tourney, one match 2-0, (against, of all people, steven menendian) and the other 2-1. (scooped early game one to take games 2 and 3 after he manabonds, zuran orb, endstep lands in, loam in the bin.) Against Steven, A nacatl, goyf, goyf draw got there with a well timed wasteland. Game two we both sit under blood moon until he finds his basic forest and K grips it, but he also unlocked my three wastelands on board, I triple waste his factories with the remaining one allready in the bin and play a bog out of my hand. He can't find enough lands in the rest of his deck to flame jab me out of the game as I soar to 26 off of two lightning helixes. He decked. The second lands player I played didn't hold open his ghost quarters games 2 and 3 and I dropped a blood moon with my basic forest and plains in play while he had no basic forest or mox diamond.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
// Lands
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
2 [ROE] Forest (1)
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
2 [ROE] Mountain (1)
1 [ROE] Plains (1)
2 [R] Plateau
1 [R] Savannah
2 [R] Taiga
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
// Creatures
3 [TO] Grim Lavamancer
4 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
4 [ZEN] Steppe Lynx
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [ALA] Wild Nacatl
// Spells
2 [DD2] Fireblast
4 [M10] Lightning Bolt
3 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [LG] Chain Lightning
4 [V09] Berserk
4 [UL] Rancor
is the build I've been playing around with on MWS. I don't know how much I like it, and I don't know much about zoo but its fun.
The problem with "pump" effects is that they open you up to 2for1s way too easily. They end the game quicker, but you just have to watch out how you use them. It's really a player choice on Rancor/Reckless Charge/Berserk effects.
Total agreement. You add on the phenomenon of confirmation bias, and it's not surprising how supporters more often remember the epic 30-pt trampling attacks than the devastating 3-for-1 routs caused by opposing removal.
There's a place for pumpers in Sligh or Berserk stompy, which deprioritize resilience and endurance for more devastating early power. However, for those that like a more measured but persistent level of pressure, Zoo fits the bill, and pumpers don't jive with the core goals and philosophies of Zoo. For those that want to blur the lines, I can see the appeal of trying them in Zoo.
P.S. If you're considering pumpers, Bonesplitter's pretty efficient as far as equipment goes.
unless I'm misreading the card, if you rancor something and they remove the nacatl, the rancor goes into your hand, not GY.
If you attempt to Rancor something, and they remove Rancor's target in response then you lose both.
Btw, what happens to Rancor on Goyf when Goyf gets Flickerwisped? E.g. does Goyf return with the Rancor still on it?
No, Rancor will just go to the GY and right back into your hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
Nop, it's countered because there's no valid targets. Rancor go to Yard and stays there.Quote:
Originally Posted by LordEvilTeaCup
So what about my list
-2 Berserk
-4 Rancor
+4 Lightning Helix
+2 Knights of The Reliquary
?
Teacup was replying to me. Fuzzy, I think you meant to reply to Neuad. Neuad, wouldn't Rancor be better than Berserk? It least you have the chance to play it multiple times, and without other pump you really can't abuse Berserk very effectively.
Yeah I was thinking about that as I played a bit and you're right.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
2x Rancor would be alot better then 2x Berserk without the Rancor pump.
I think Berserk is better for Zoo than rancor because it is instant speed, and if they were going to kill the critter anyways then it's no big worry. But in general, the points made by LB/kirbysdl are accurate.
@Media: Care to post a list? 4 wastes and 2 bogs? I mean I know Zoo can be tuned to stand up to Lands, especially if a developed scene hasn't hated the deck out. I'm just curious as my own list has PoP to combat lands, and that's about it.