Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dontbiteitholmes
Despite all that the metagame is starting to adapt to Sneak & Show. I think from here on out people are going to realize that Reanimator w/ Griselbrand is a nightmare matchup for Sneak/Show and a very solid deck on it's own. Sneak/Show can't risk running out a Show/Tell vs. Reanimator with so many nightmare scenarios (GBrand, Archon, Jin Gitaxis, ect.) not to mention a faster combo, better disruption, and more diverse fatty options (Blazing Archon G1 = GG).
The matchup is just bad times all around for Sneak/Show. I think Reanimator is going to establish itself in the next several weeks as the go-to Griselbrand deck and you are going to see Sneak&Show fall off heavily as a result. As this happens, the deck becomes easier to hate on. I didn't really think about it until it happened, but Griselbrand decks reached the next level before the decks trying to hate it out. If Reanimator succeeds in replacing Sneak/Show (and I don't see any reason it won't) we can just fall back to the same SB strats we've known all along for Reanimator (and Karakas becomes a much better answer when it doesn't have to worry about Sneaky Emrakul).
So once again I'm going to say wait and see what happens in the next couple weeks. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see Reanimator hate out Show/Tell at the GP.
You do realise that you are exchanging one deck that utilises show and tell for another one?
The fact that show and tell is a sideboard card is of little importance since it is show and tell that makes the deck have a decent post-board game against the field.
Also it would confirm RUG delver as the dominant counterstrategy and thus wouldn't change all that much.
Karakas would become slightly better although they do have answers MD, and given the speed of reanimator, reliably getting it into play would be very difficult.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reagens
You do realise that you are exchanging one deck that utilises show and tell for another one?
The fact that show and tell is a sideboard card is of little importance since it is show and tell that makes the deck have a decent post-board game against the field.
Also it would confirm RUG delver as the dominant counterstrategy and thus wouldn't change all that much.
Karakas would become slightly better although they do have answers MD, and given the speed of reanimator, reliably getting it into play would be very difficult.
Without the Sneak, Griselbrand isn't the next turn Sneaky Emrakul everyone fears and they are still vulnerable to GY hate (which is why they run Show in the first place) and just as vulnerable to counterspells and the same counterShows (Knight, Karakas, Drake) if they go that route.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lochlan
A reason:
Having more permission and a plan that doesn't involve the graveyard means Sneaky Show has a much better Canadian Thresh match-up than Reanimator, both pre-board and post-board.
Reanimator is certainly capable of beating Thresh, but it's shakier than the Sneaky Show/Thresh match-up. If Thresh continues to be a dominant deck in the format, I do not see Reanimator outright replacing Sneaky Show.
I do think that Reanimator is good right now and it will probably see more play after Reid Duke's win.
More permission? Reanimator has as much or more permission than any given Sneak/Show deck and some amount of that is discard which allows them to see what you are working with and decide whether or not it's a good time to go off, and their combo is cheaper which allows them to better play around Pierce/Daze.
Reanimator has a slightly worse M/U vs. RUG and basically every other deck, since it has easier vulnerabilities to account for.
Still, right now the decks to beat are RUG and Show/Tell. Reanimator is more or less the same deck it always was except now with GBrand in the RUG and other matchups but it has a HUGE advantage vs. Show and Tell decks. With a Show and Tell deck I couldn't think of a much worse deck to face off against than Reanimator, can you? It's literally the perfect inverse to the Show and Tell decks out there right now. It has as much disruption as you, it can Thoughtsieze you then Reanimate your Grisel or clear the path for it's combo, it can drop Grisel or Archon off your Show/Tells, it's combo is cheaper, the list goes on.
Show and Tell is a big deck right now but it can't beat Reanimator reliably. Now that the cat is out of the bag IMO you'd be crazy to bring a standard Sneak/Show build to an event where you expect Reanimator to show up (and go ahead and make that every big event for the next long while). If Show and Tell is being played Reanimator is the better choice right now, if Reanimator is being played Sneak/Show seems like a bad idea. It will take some (bad) people a little while to realize this so expect to see Sneak/Show slowly replaced over the next several weeks, but it will be replaced. Once the format flips to Reanimator it becomes easier to hate on. This is my prediction. I assure you some of the people who planned on taking Sneak/Show to GP Atlanta are probably changing their minds after tonight.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
joemauer
The meta hasn't turned into this. Griselbrand is new, so everyone is trying it out. Same was true for Jace2 a few years ago, and these days you don't see many Jaces around. Same is still somewhat true for Delver, though Delver is a powerful card in powerful decks that will keep appearing in top8s in the future, but I believe that even Delver will see a bit less play after a while.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
oh look
8x4 = 32 Brainstorms in yesterday's SCG top8
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=8458
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Awaclus
The meta hasn't turned into this. Griselbrand is new, so everyone is trying it out. Same was true for Jace2 a few years ago, and these days you don't see many Jaces around. Same is still somewhat true for Delver, though Delver is a powerful card in powerful decks that will keep appearing in top8s in the future, but I believe that even Delver will see a bit less play after a while.
although it's true what you said this whole commotion around Griselbrand and Show and Tell in common forums like the source or salvation contributed to people playing Sneak Show abundantly because they expected to be successful by playing the newest 'zomfgbroken' (at least from my perception). However, in my opinion, one cannot argue that the most recent Show and tell decks with Griselbrand don't warrant a ban of Show and Tell. Even in legacy, this is just too strong and besides there are no proper options to to deal with it. (im not going to elaborate that because it has been stated so many times now in this thread).
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tao
It is like seeing 7-8 Black Lotuses in Vintage top 8s. People should accept the format for what it is and remember the Maverick's resurgence of power a month back.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bilb_o
It is like seeing 7-8 Black Lotuses in Vintage top 8s. People should accept the format for what it is and remember the Maverick's resurgence of power a month back.
I'm inclined to agree that Brainstorm should not be banned, but your comparison of Legacy Brainstorm to Vintage Black Lotus is a poor one. Lotus is restricted in Vintage, afterall.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Justin
I'm inclined to agree that Brainstorm should not be banned, but your comparison of Legacy Brainstorm to Vintage Black Lotus is a poor one. Lotus is restricted in Vintage, afterall.
I think the point is that each card is an ubiquitous icon of the format.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Why do people complain about the ONE week Maverick took 7/8 spots in an open yet conveniently sidestep the YEARS of blue dominance?
People also seem to ignore the weeks and weeks of diversity earlier in the year, where Maverick and RUG were the top decks, but other decks were also placing including loam decks, nic fit, dredge, combo, etc.
Now it's starting to look like the Misstep era all over again. You either play fair blue decks or unfair blue decks.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
I put together a The Gate list and tested it for a while. Now I'm 100% sure that Show and Tell is not a problematic card and neither is Griselbrand. SnT isn't even a strong card, it's easier to counter than any other card in the whole format. The last time I said if something needs to be banned, it should be Sneak Attack, I wasn't completely serious, but now after testing, I think that Sneak Attack really is the most powerful card in the deck and the card they should ban if and only if SneakShow becomes the whole meta or something almost as ridiculous.
EDIT: The list was designed to beat both Show and Tell and Delver decks. I could have even improved the SneakShow match-up a little, but it would've greatly worsened the Tempo Thresh and U/R Delver match-ups.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kusumoto
I think the point is that each card is an ubiquitous icon of the format.
But Vintage's whole shtick is that cards are never banned (with the exception of ante cards, cards like Chaos Orb, and cards that take way too much time like Shahrawhatever). Appealing to it, quite frankly, seems an argument to ban Brainstorm. There's also the critical fact that Black Lotus fits into almost any deck regardless of color, so if Brainstorm (restricted to Blue decks) has a similar dominance, that's a problem.
Actually, Mental Misstep seems a better analogy because it can in fact fit into any deck. So by the argument you seem to be presenting, banning Mental Misstep was a mistake because like Black Lotus it was everywhere and could be in virtually any deck.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dontbiteitholmes
Show and Tell is a big deck right now but it can't beat Reanimator reliably.
This statement is contradictory because Reanimator plays Show and Tell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Awaclus
The meta hasn't turned into this. Griselbrand is new, so everyone is trying it out. Same was true for Jace2 a few years ago, and these days you don't see many Jaces around. Same is still somewhat true for Delver, though Delver is a powerful card in powerful decks that will keep appearing in top8s in the future, but I believe that even Delver will see a bit less play after a while.
You sir are in denial. The tops eight are becoming more Show and Tell/Delver infested and you just brush it off. Are you one of those guys that invested in 20 copies of Show and Tell when it was a $25 card or perhaps you have the perfect meta game deck created and don't want the DCI messing that up?
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bilb_o
It is like seeing 7-8 Black Lotuses in Vintage top 8s. People should accept the format for what it is and remember the Maverick's resurgence of power a month back.
Yes that is a totally legit comparison. Oh no ... wait ... Black Lotus is actually colorless which makes the comparison pretty poor. The fact the you can run Lotus in any Vintage deck even including Dredge without further requirements did not come into your mind?
I am not quite sure in which direction Wizards wants to push the format while I am pretty sure that banning Brainstorm alone would not solve "the problem" of the blue dominance - you would have to ban Ponder, Preordain and Jace along with Brainstorm to really impact the format ... and even then people might adjust and continue playing blue.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
kusumoto
I think the point is that each card is an ubiquitous icon of the format.
That is a fair point and the only reason to keep it. But claiming that Brainstorm is not an unfairly overpowered card like many people in this thread do is just wrong. The effect is too powerful for its Mana cost and tournament results have proven it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Awaclus
I put together a The Gate list and tested it for a while. Now I'm 100% sure that Show and Tell is not a problematic card and neither is Griselbrand. SnT isn't even a strong card, it's easier to counter than any other card in the whole format. The last time I said if something needs to be banned, it should be Sneak Attack, I wasn't completely serious, but now after testing, I think that Sneak Attack really is the most powerful card in the deck and the card they should ban if and only if SneakShow becomes the whole meta or something almost as ridiculous.
EDIT: The list was designed to beat both Show and Tell and Delver decks. I could have even improved the SneakShow match-up a little, but it would've greatly worsened the Tempo Thresh and U/R Delver match-ups.
Of course you would think that Sneak Attack is more dangerous than Show and Tell after testing with a deck full of Sorcery speed Edicts. People relying on Countermagic will think otherwise, especially effects like Daze and Spell Pierce combined with Wasteland.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
A single blue isn't all that difficult to come by in fetch/dual.format either so the color requirement comparison is lacking as well.
Most decks that don't play Brainstorm do so because they don't have free counters and thus can't derp around creating a better hand the first turns of the game (which inevitably happens once you run less business in favor of filtering). Also Merfolk I guess but why they didn't adapt a fetchland manabase and replaced Ponder after the format moved away from stifle is just one of those mysteries for the ages.
EDIT: As for why BS isn't and shouldn't be banned, it's because it not only improves consistency but also promotes reactive gameplay by design. Games where players can react and interact to what the other player is doing are just better designed as games through rule of fun (as has previously been mentioned in this thread). This is also why runaway decks that minimize possible interactions always ends up getting components banned, not to uphold some arbitrary aggro/combo/control balance.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
joemauer
This statement is contradictory because Reanimator plays Show and Tell.
Reanimator sideboards show&tell. Duke's list had 2 in the sb and I didn't see it cast once although I'm sure he did at some point throughout the day.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tao
Nobody wants to hear it. They are in love with the notion that Brainstorm is some special card that can never be banned, mostly because they think they acting 'skillful', 'skill intensive' and 'semi pro' when they cast it.
<run on>
The fact that people are talking about banning Show and Tell and Griselbrand and implying all these cards are the problem when Brainstorm is so obviously the card that makes all these strategies and absurd 17 land mana bases work is just getting comical at this point.
</run on>
Brainstorm is so far and above the power level of some of the cards currently on the banned list that it makes the DCI look like fools. All these poor decks that at some point in a long 8-9 round tournament that had to keep 6 card mulligans without Brainstorm and lost were just fooling themselves. The magic fix for bad mana or no action all for the cost of U, and one life for a fetch ... either play it or win the dice roll and cast Chalice on 1. The poor decks that had to play fair 22 land mana bases were just wasting their $40, when you can play 14 mana lands and 4 wastelands and just fix it all for U.
Absurd.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Infinitium
A single blue isn't all that difficult to come by in fetch/dual.format either so the color requirement comparison is lacking as well.
Most decks that don't play Brainstorm do so because they don't have free counters and thus can't derp around creating a better hand the first turns of the game (which inevitably happens once you run less business in favor of filtering). Also Merfolk I guess but why they didn't adapt a fetchland manabase and replaced Ponder after the format moved away from stifle is just one of those mysteries for the ages.
EDIT: As for why BS isn't and shouldn't be banned, it's because it not only improves consistency but also promotes reactive gameplay by design. Games where players can react and interact to what the other player is doing are just better designed as games through rule of fun (as has previously been mentioned in this thread). This is also why runaway decks that minimize possible interactions always ends up getting components banned, not to uphold some arbitrary aggro/combo/control balance.
Now you have a 56 card format. Great job. You argument isn't an argument for *not banning* you've actually made a case for ubiquity which *is* an actual ban criteria (along with others). Even worse it's a ubiquitous colored card, in the color with the best creatures, and free counterspells.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
oRen
Yes that is a totally legit comparison. Oh no ... wait ... Black Lotus is actually colorless which makes the comparison pretty poor. The fact the you can run Lotus in any Vintage deck even including Dredge without further requirements did not come into your mind?
What he said. So the people who snap call 'wasteland' when Brainstorms ubiquity is brought up are missing them point entirely.
Quote:
I am not quite sure in which direction Wizards wants to push the format while I am pretty sure that banning Brainstorm alone would not solve "the problem" of the blue dominance - you would have to ban Ponder, Preordain and Jace along with Brainstorm to really impact the format ... and even then people might adjust and continue playing blue.
I disagree here. Ponder and Preordain are great cards for filtering and mana fixing, but they (in a world with fetch lands anyway) are leagues below Brainstorm for a number of reasons. One is the obvious synergy with shuffle effects (ponder touches this a bit but still isn't close to brainstorm). The other huge one is that Brainstorm is the best protection against disruption in the form of discard. You have to Ponder in your main phase. Ponder and Preordain would remain staple blue cantrips, but when Brainstorm is banned you'll see targeted discard become more effective (oh ... and also, targeted discard is 'skill intensive').
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
menace13
16 Delvers and 10 Show Tell(12 Grisel) in decks, 20 Delvers if counting top 16.
40 Brainstorms. Convenient that you left that out. 2 Chalice decks that were likely mulliganing to chalice on 1 to stop Brainstorm.
