[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

Greg - I played your maindeck on Monday, and my sideboard was:

4 Mentor
4 Bob
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Serenity
1 Flusterstorm
2 Swords to Plowshares


I didn't get much chance to use it though.

Round 1 was against an unsleeved deck playing Gravestorm. I'm not counting this round...

Round 1a was against Eldrazi Shops - I just bareeeely lost Game 1 with Chalice on 1 on the board. I was on the draw, and cleanup discard griselbrand. Shallow Grave the following turn to draw a bunch to set up, but he has Thought-Knot Seer and Mimic on Board. I'm in a position to kill him with very little mana on board... he top decks Thorn of Amethyst, forcing my to Shallow Grave on his turn to make a Griselbrand blocker (I only had 2 mana open). He declines to attack, Griselbrand is RFG, and I have no more targets to reanimate during my turn. So i lose. Very close.

Game 2 I went to Mentors and made a mistake which cost me the game. I failed to Brainstorm back a Mentor to the top of my library when I found it to protect it from Thought Knot Seer off the top of his library. Naturally, he drew TKS and took Mentor. I lost. Whoops!

Round 2 was against TES. He drew better than I did and I died both games.

Round 3 was against Rogue Hermit. He drew better than I did and I died both games.

Round 4 was against UW stoneblade (I think). Mentor plan got him out of the board after he dropped Rest in Peace.

So the event wasn't great, particularly for testing out the sideboard. But that said, I did get a lot of maindeck games in, and I think you've convinced me to cut Tendrils (unless maindeck Ensnaring Bridge starts showing up) and run basically your maindeck. It made me think about lines differently and draw slightly less aggressively with Griselbrand (to get to Tendrils) and think more about shredding their hands and setting up for the following turn. But that's just fine. I'll keep on that 60 for now I think.

Sideboard... bleh. Not enough testing - if there is combo everywhere I obviously want the 2nd Flusterstorm. Almost want the 3rd Serenity too, as it is good against all kinds of decks (Shops, Tezz, D&T, Miracles). I saw that you recommended Needle to Shawn for the Shops matchup for Faerie Macabre - I think it may be reasonable to just not use reanimation (or use it minimally) in that matchup to make more room in the board. Swords answers most other targets for Needle in other matchups (looking at you Deathrite) outside of Wasteland - but we're running 2 basics now so I care less about that card.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tescrin

This has always been the deck I was going to try if I did combo and I think it's worth me doing it a bit but I had a few questions:
* How bad is the influx of Chalice Spam? I'm guessing the Mentor plan helps with that.
* What do you think of the Doomsday plan? I imagine I'd start with your side, but I originally thought the DD was hilarious/awesome.
* I need a bunch of stuff for it ($300 I think), do you think it's worth it?
[Entomb, Goryo's, Grisel, Emmy, Shallow.]

Thanks!

---

Went 3-1 in my local store beat random discard deck, budget burn, gwb zenith and lost against modern affinity (draw 14 with grisel and no reanimator spell)

Went 4-1 in an MTGO League in my first play with this deck. I was a couple of misplays away from starting out 8-0 in games.

2-0 vs. Deathblade
2-0 vs. Miracles (Cavern of Souls was unfair. I also attempted to reanimate the opponent's Mentor)
2-1 vs. 4 color delver
2-1 vs. Shardless BUG
1-2 vs. ....Tin Fins (this match featured two turn 1 wins)

3 Deathrite Shaman decks, Miracles, and the mirror. Not the most friendly meta.

3-4 in games with traditional plan
6-0 in games with Monastery Mentor

Quick Notes (Will expand later)
Mentor Sideboard
4x Monastery Mentor
3x Dark Confidant
2x Cavern of Souls
Monastery Mentor is incredibly strong; I did not lose a single post-board game other than in the mirror (where I did not board the mentors in). Reanimate has some synergy with the post-board plan, it may be interesting to try 2 maindeck. However, I was having trouble figuring out what to do with the remaining 4 slots after removing the combo (I would usually keep 1 Griselbrand and some number of entomb/shallow grave). I played Monastery Mentor as a transformational sideboard in Doomsday, but having more room due to not relying on Burning Wish is great; the two Caverns allow for extra land drops in wasteland matchups as well as single-handedly winning the Miracles matchup.

Sensei's Divining Top
I am running 2 in the maindeck and they have overperformed. This gives us the potential for a strong long game (we have almost as much card selection as ANT!) Obviously unfair with a Mentor on board. I think 2 is a good number.

Chrome Mox
I used two in this tournament; A quick calculation shows that the probability of not finding a Lotus Petal/Chrome Mox in the first 14 draws drops by 6% if only one Chrome Mox is in the deck, assuming that none are drawn in the opening hand (and by 3% if 21 cards are drawn). Further analysis needs to be done to see if a 15th land would be better here. I had at least 3 opening hands without a single land.

Discard/Goryo's Vengeance
I chose to play the 7th discard spell over the third Goryo's Vengeance (4 Shallow Grave and 1 Reanimate). This felt fine and, coupled with the maindeck Tops, I was able to win a couple of long games through counterspell-heavy hands.

Manabase
2 basics (Island/Swamp) were great; I was able to ignore wasteland for most of the matches. Does the deck need 2 white dual lands? I may try playing the 8th fetchland over the Scrubland.

Great job with developing the deck so far!

I am one of those skeptical of LDV, and I was thinking that Dark Petition would work quite well in it's place. Yeah, it costs more, but a deck with a bunch of rituals could theoretically get it pretty easily/reliably (I think it's a 92% hypergeometric at 1 copy and 84% at 2 copies.)

I'm guessing it's not terribly important as a 1-of, but given we find the card with no health cost; it seems better than LDV purely on the back of making it more live while we get the bargin.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tescrin

I am one of those skeptical of LDV, and I was thinking that Dark Petition would work quite well in it's place. Yeah, it costs more, but a deck with a bunch of rituals could theoretically get it pretty easily/reliably (I think it's a 92% hypergeometric at 1 copy and 84% at 2 copies.)

I'm guessing it's not terribly important as a 1-of, but given we find the card with no health cost; it seems better than LDV purely on the back of making it more live while we get the bargin.

---

I dont like this card in this kind of deck, we have dark rituals, petal but not cabal...

Burning Wish, LDV, and Grim all do the same, add consistency; through improved T3 kill rate, tutoring for transformational SB's, and artificial copies of SB cards. LDV is the best of the three, and having tried Grim, there is no way you are getting to 5cmc for Petition under typical circumstances.

That said, 2x Mox, 3-4x Carful Study and 2-3 Reanimate builds have greater velocity which sometimes trumps consistancy.

Went 4-0 tonight with this list:

4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance

4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Daze

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
2 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Children of Korlis
1 Tendrils of Agony

3 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Marsh Flats

SB:
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Dark Confidant
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Disenchant
1 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Massacre

--------------------------------

Match 1: High Tide
Both games were durdly due to Counterbalances on his end, but I he didn't have a CounterTop lock so I was able to grind him out both games by ripping apart his hand with discard. I didn't use the Mentor SB (don't really need it in this matchup, I don't think). Top was very helpful for me to find what I needed.
1-0

Match 2: Merfolk
Game 1 I comboed out on Turn 2 (he had no protection)
Game 2 I brought in the entire Mentor + Dark Confidant package, but lost due to a grindy match where my Mentor didn't get enough enough tokens going while he was able to build a steady army, with Chalice on 1 and 2 out.
Game 3 I hybridized the SB strategy with fewer Confidants and Mentors (risky of course because of flipping high CMC cards, e.g. Griselbrand), but Bob drew me 4 or 5 cards and I was able to rip out his hand of two Flusterstorms with Cabal Therapy and go off with a Griselbrand in the GY into a perfectly lethal Tendrils of Agony.
2-0

Match 3: Enchantress
Game 1 I comboed out my second turn after Thoughtseizing his Solitary Confinement on my first turn with Griselbrand into Emrakul attacking first turn.
Game 2 I didn't bring in the Mentor package, as I would much rather go the combo route here. My opponent opened with a Leyline of Sanctity, I drew 21 cards with Griselbrand rather early without finding a second Entomb for Emrakul or Children of Korlis before running out of mana (no fuggin' petals), but I did get an Entomb finally, passed the turn, discarding Emrakul and shuffling, then on my next turn I Dark Ritual>Entomb>Goryo's Vengeance for victory with him on 13 life.
3-0

Match 4: Death & Taxes
We chose to draw beforehand just because it kinda sucks playing late only to scrub out of the money due to shitty tiebreakers, but I went on to win our fun match anyway.
Game 1 He played Mom first turn, I played a Marsh Flats and Lotus Petal and passed, and then he played a Phyrexian Revoker naming Griselbrand (thankfully not Lotus Petal). He passed, I played a land into Thoughtseize targeting myself, naming Emrakul (in my hand, obv), and Goryo's Vengeance for annihilator and nonlethal and he scooped, but even if he hadn't I had an Entomb and another Goryo's Vengeance in hand. Lucksack.
Game 2 I completely sided out the combo, partially for experimentation, but also because I know he's probably going to bring in RIPs, Canonists, etc. I went wide with a Mentor, getting me 4 Monk tokens, I Pithing Needled his Moms (he had two out), and Disenchanted his SfM Tutored-up Batterskull.
4-0 w00t

-------------------------------

The Daze was just for funsies, and I had only one opportunity to use it in the Merfolk match (which was incredibly satisfying to win against, because this particular Merfolk player wins almost every week), but missed my opportunity. I probably wouldn't use it again, or instead would go up to 3 just for the ability to bounce my Islands in that particular matchup. Understand, these games are normally 8-10 people and I get paired up against Fish almost every week as well.

The Massacre is nonbo with Mentor, but I figure it's better to build up a potential good hand and wipe a D&T board than just die.

As much as I love Lim-Dul's Vault, I didn't miss it at all this game, nor did I miss the Chrome Mox (that much). Additionally, I'll probably cut the basic Island, because honestly, the deck just ran so well and I didn't encounter much Wasteland so who knows?

I've re-fallen in love with this deck. Hopefully this adoration will last.

Copied Kyle's list and hit up the MTGO practice room. That mentor package is incredible. Beatup on NicFit, Beatup Shardless(i was down to 1 life and comboed out with Mentor and Monks), and some other random deck. Gotta play around with it more, but I have fallen back in love with our lord and savior G-Brand at instant speed. Shallow graved Children twice and did a tendrils at storm 2 to stay alive in time to combo out. Definately need more testing, but the deck is hillarious as ever.

Played in the Classic in Indy this weekend. Went 6-2 to make 16th on breakers.

List from this weekend: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=99993

I was trying out Defense Grid over some dumb wish targets and an extra Duress. I don't know if they were good. Two mana is a lot and really only helps if you're trying to play a really slow game which this deck obviously isn't trying to do. Sometimes it's just brown duress which is nice when you'd rather go off the next turn and only had one thing to do for the turn. Pretty unsure if the card is playable.

W - 2-0 Elves
L - 1-2 Shardless BUG
W - 2-0 Esper Stoneblade
W - 2-1 Eldrazi Stompy
W - 2-1 Death and Taxes
L - 1-2 Miracles
W - 2-0 UR Burn
W - 2-1 Sneak and Show

I can go into a breakdown of each match if necessary. But as usual with my version I got some free wins because I could just Wish for Goblins and some opponents don't board in graveyard hate after sideboarding because of it. Losing to Miracles was expected but I think if I played differently I probably win the match as my opponent kept garbage hands and just drew out of it (ban top). Losing to Shardless BUG was annoying since that deck is so bad against combo decks. I just spun the tires too much and lost under a Grafdigger's Cage into Tarmogoyfs. Flexibility of my Burning Wishes came in handy for this event. I played against a lot of different decks and it was nice to get appropriate answers for the given situation.

Great job Pomegrant! Glad to see that the No Miracles Zone finished in the money / prize wall tickets

I would love to hear a breakdown because that deck is just so cool.

Have you tried jamming a singleton Unburial Rites in the LED/Wish version of Tin Fins? Being able to entomb a reanimate spell and cast it via LED is a nice move ^^

Hi!

I'm fairly new to the forum (been lurking a while though) and got interested in playing TinFins a couple of days ago. I'm just a bit lost since there's several different lists and different sideboard plans.
mostly I wonder which is better right now:

reactive sb or mentor?
If mentor, how important is Cavern of Souls (since it's quite expensive)?
Tundra vs. Island?
Careful Study vs. Ponder?

I've been playing TES a while, and I'm looking for a similar speed and consistency (if possible).

I'm grateful for everyone who takes the time replying, I have read the primer and the last 3 pages but haven't found any discussion regarding the questions above.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DNSolver

Great job Pomegrant! Glad to see that the No Miracles Zone finished in the money / prize wall tickets

I would love to hear a breakdown because that deck is just so cool.

---

I can do a quick run down of my matches as I played against eight different decks and you want to do different things in all match ups.

2-0 Elves
Pretty straight forward. Their deck is just too slow to get underneath you, especially when they mulligan to 5 on the draw. I went Probe into Therapy something that didn't matter that much then played it slow to have a guaranteed kill and finished it off. I had a turn 1 kill in game two which is faster than a Deathrite Shaman.

1-2 Shardless BUG
I think is one of the better match ups in Legacy. Their deck just does nothing. However, in game 1 we play a discard battle and on turn 3 i played brainstorm, fetch, ponder, fetch, ponder and couldn't piece anything together to die to some tarmogoyfs. Game two is a quick affair, and game three he sticks a turn one cage followed up by two tarmogoyfs and I just can piece anything together. Unfortunate but losing favorable match ups happens.

2-0 Esper Stoneblade
I like this match somewhat. When they play white you never know how much stuff they really have, and the stoneblade players generally play a lot more cheap countermagic. This guy, however, had nothing over two games. He kept a fine hand game one that lost to a piece of discard and game two kept six lands and a Clique because it was a legal play.

2-1 Eldrazi Stompy
This was the first time I've played against the deck. In the abstract the spheres and chalices are obviously really good and they have a fast clock to back it up. It felt like a coin flip and played like it. The games I won were on the play and I could discard his thing or just combo. The game I lost he got to stick the a chalice and just murder me with dudes.

2-1 Death and Taxes
I think this is a favorable match up but they obviously have some great cards. Game 1 turn 1 on the play, i probe seeing thalia. I ponder, then next turn therapy the thalia. my opponent then draws Thalia and I just die. However, opponent has no idea what my deck is as I just showed him lands and cantrips, but probably easy to assume I'm playing ANT. Game 2 i have a hand of no lands, petal petal LED LED probe wish and make 12 goblins on turn one into him scooping. In game three my opponent has two rest in peaces and and ethersworn canonist and Karakas. I sideboarded in my Pyroclasm and got the canonist, but because he has no idea I'm playing graveyard stuff he only plays one RIP instead of playing the 2nd one plays a SFM. This gives me the chance to chain his RIP then combo off and kill him. He made the right line of just trying to kill me because I killed his Canonist but it lost him the game.

1-2 Miracles
My opponent revealed a card by mistake when shuffling and I see Counterbalance. I got locked in game one, then in game two i combo quickly when he keeps a hand without counter magic. Game 3 is where I probably punted it away. There was a turn in which he had just a top in play and no ways to deal with Griselbrand, and I could Reanimate Griselbrand. I chose not to because he has two fetch lands and if he can find a way to deal with it I don't have way to rebuild. He finds a counterbalance and I lose. I didn't yolo hard enough and got punished. Lesson learned.

2-0 UR Burn
It was a Burn deck with Volcs and Delvers but no other blue cards. Game one she plays Delver, I probe, see burn cards, dark ritual into entomb, therapy, reanimate. Game is pretty close because she blocked Griselbrand with delver and bolted the delver. I was at six and knew she had a Lava Spike so if she ripped a one or a fireblast I would have lost. Game two it's more of the same. She leads of with rift bolt, I go island brainstorm, then find some combination of lotus petals and burning wish+LED to get a Griselbrand.

2-1 Sneak and Show
I have terrible breakers so there is no way I'd have a shot at sneaking into top 8 (it was a clean cut anyway) but obviously still play for top 16. Sneak and Show is a weird match up. Their show and tells are really bad so you can limit them to just having to kill through Sneak Attack. The best game was game 3 in which my opponent has a Grafdigger's Cage and a Sneak attack in play. I know he has Emrakul and Griselbrand so I'm dead next turn. I have a Defense Grid, 4 lands. I have a Brainstorm, Griselbrand, 2 Dark Rituals. I decide to ritual out Griselbrand and pay the 8. I'm at 15 so I draw 4 and hit. Petal, petal, LED, Dark ritual, duress, Burning Wish, Tendrills to win it. First time I've hardcast Griselbrand into comboing that same turn.

The day's undoing that I had in the board wasn't necessary and I'm glad that I cut it. I would have liked a 2nd Duress in the board against but I feel that Defense Grid was solid. It was nice to blank decks that just wanted to sit there with a ton of counter magic, especially flusterstorm. As for my performance, I definitely made some misplays during the tournament that probably cost me a shot at top 8. I don't think top 16 is a great result, but I'm happy that the deck performed well. This deck is still more than just a fun project and legitimately powerful.

Congrats on the finish, Pomegrant! Interesting list, glad to see it doing well for you.

I posted a tournament report for my top 4 at the Card Kingdom 1k last weekend: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...k-with-TinFins

What do you guys think of the sideboard plans that I proposed? Quoted:

Quote:

---

1. Painful Truths. This is the typical complement with Esper Mentor, but it has the problems of being 3 mana (already clogged with Mentor), vulnerable to the spell hate people tend to bring in (Flusterstorm, Daze etc), and still ahem painful.
2. Stoneforge Mystic + Batterskull. Stoneforge is ETB card advantage, and BUG decks have a real tough time beating a Batterskull in play. Miracles also has trouble with a recurring 4/4 if the game gets to that point. It's great against creature / tribal decks where Mentor isn't necessarily. Equipment helps the token plan. Very promising, but most likely needs a third white source.
3. Counterbalance. Yes. It's a huge bomb against Miracles especially since I can power it out turn 1 with Lotus Petal and doesn't get hit by either removal or Flusterstorm. It also allows me to cut Flusterstorms for my anti-combo slots, leaving more room for other matchups. It isn't great against Delver though. I think this is better in the right metagames, but overall weaker.

Potential sideboards:
4 Monastery Mentor, 2 Stoneforge Mystic, 1 Batterskull, 3 Swords to Plowshares, 1 Dread of Night, 2 Flusterstorm, 2 Serenity (and -1 Sea, +1 Tundra maindeck)
4 Monastery Mentor, 3 Counterbalance, 1 Sensei's Divining Top, 4 Swords to Plowshares, 2 Disenchant, 1 Serenity

---

I’ve tested 3-4 SFM + 4 Mentor. The plan is solid with a better creature matchup than Bob + Mentor.

I found Batterskull awkward, having SFM routinely eat a bolt/Decay and a 5cmc stranded in hand wishing for the rituals I took out. I ended up with 2x Jitte, which whilst better in TinFins SB, is not better against DnT or dedicated SFM decks that have access to Batterskull (and can cast it).

Unmolested, SFM was great. But unmolested I’d rather have a Bob with a trimmed down TinFin’s package and Mentor’s.

I’ve recently reconfigured the cantrips with 3x Careful Study + 2x Ponder with a second Reanimate. It’s certainly more explosive G1, and with a creature SB I’ve not missed the digging power of Ponder and LDV seeking Storm, Painter, or Doomsday parts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alastair

I’ve tested 3-4 SFM + 4 Mentor. The plan is solid with a better creature matchup than Bob + Mentor.

I found Batterskull awkward, having SFM routinely eat a bolt/Decay and a 5cmc stranded in hand wishing for the rituals I took out. I ended up with 2x Jitte, which whilst better in TinFins SB, is not better against DnT or dedicated SFM decks that have access to Batterskull (and can cast it).

Unmolested, SFM was great. But unmolested I’d rather have a Bob with a trimmed down TinFin’s package and Mentor’s.

I’ve recently reconfigured the cantrips with 3x Careful Study + 2x Ponder with a second Reanimate. It’s certainly more explosive G1, and with a creature SB I’ve not missed the digging power of Ponder and LDV seeking Storm, Painter, or Doomsday parts.

---

That doesn't really make sense to me. If you're concerned with the creature just eating removal, then wouldn't guaranteed drawing a card with no life loss be strictly better than not? The problem I was finding that I wanted more creatures for when I didn't draw Mentor, so an equipment that doesn't do anything without Mentor in play seems worse than Bob.

Did you play much against Delver? Bob is really bad in those matchups. It does shine against control though.

I tried Careful Study way back in the day (like...2012...man I've been playing this deck too long). It's great when you have Griselbrand in hand, but really inconsistent with only 4 creatures. It also encourages you to play more Griselbrands which are usually medium bad to draw. Don't really see why it would be different now.

phazonmutant:
I can see you winning with Emrakul hard cast, but isn't it easier on the clock and your head to play 1 Tendrils?

For sideboard, I like the Stoneforge Mystic package, I would play Jitte definitely with perhaps Stoneforge Masterwork or a Sword of ____&____.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TTX

phazonmutant:
I can see you winning with Emrakul hard cast, but isn't it easier on the clock and your head to play 1 Tendrils?

For sideboard, I like the Stoneforge Mystic package, I would play Jitte definitely with perhaps Stoneforge Masterwork or a Sword of ____&____.

---

Dead cards are dead cards, drawing tendrils early feels pretty miserable. The loop isn't actually that bad. often you just draw into the double bin and double reanimate to 22 them but sometimes hardcasting is needed. if anything the tendrils is mostly win more since you can just win via creatures attacking, barring like an ensnaring bridge.

The games are short enough that the clock is rarely an issue

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by phazonmutant

That doesn't really make sense to me. If you're concerned with the creature just eating removal, then wouldn't guaranteed drawing a card with no life loss be strictly better than not? The problem I was finding that I wanted more creatures for when I didn't draw Mentor, so an equipment that doesn't do anything without Mentor in play seems worse than Bob..

---

Fair point. SFM does draw you the card. All too often I was left with batterskull in hand and no prayer of resolving it in time, or the Germ being dealt with and a 5cmc rock left in play. Jitte was better, but I'm happy to just add 1-2 Jitte without SFM if I feel I need them (in say a DnT heavy meta). Late game when you are both hellbent, I find Bob the better draw bringing you into dig and hopefully a Mentor. Even the 2 power can get you there.

SFM was very good against Miracles before they brought in Mentor (and I see few legends build Miracles).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by phazonmutant

I tried Careful Study way back in the day (like...2012...man I've been playing this deck too long). It's great when you have Griselbrand in hand, but really inconsistent with only 4 creatures. It also encourages you to play more Griselbrands which are usually medium bad to draw. Don't really see why it would be different now.

---

I'm in on 4 X Griselbrand and 1x Emrakul with CS builds. CS digs almost as well as Ponder, and the card disadvantage can be ignored if you are on a 2-4 turn game plan. The increased T1 and T2 reanimates (4x SG 3x GV and 2x R) is I feel worth the card disadvantage. I'm of the opinion I'd rather increase the T1/T2 kills at the expense of post T4 wins; CS pulls double duty and adds velocity.