[Primer] Elves!

Hello guys,

I was watching the replay of the semifinals Elves! vs RUG Delver @SCG Nashville (http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/501788127).
Around 34:07:15, i think that the Elves! player conceded the game too fast, let me make a boardstate recap :

# Elves! player (before passing the turn at 4 life)
Tapped : 1 Elvish visionary & 3 lands (including a Dryad arbor)
Untapped : 1 fetch (but no lands remaining in his deck i guess, plus going down to 3 is a bad idea vs burn spells), 1 Wirewood symbiote, 1 Birchlore ranger, 1 Elvish visionary
& a hand with nothing revelant but an Abrupt decay.

# RUG player (before untap) :
1 Tarmogoyf, 1 unflipped Delver of secrets, 3 lands
& a hand with an useless fetch

# Play
RUG player untap, flip Delver of secrets upkeep thanks to a Ponder. Then cast Ponder, the first top 3 card is a Lightning bolt, he reveals it and the Elves! player concede.

# Recommanded play
RUG player attacks with Tarmogoyf & Insectile aberration, the untaped Elvish visionary blocks Tarmogoyf, then tap this Elvish visionary + Birchlore ranger to float black, then use Wirewood symbiote to untap Drayd arbor, bouncing the Elvish visionary blocking Tarmogoyf, then tap Dryad arbor for green and Abrupt decay the Insectile aberration.

With this scenario you survive at least 1 more turn

Edit : Oh, i think the Elves! player noticed it a few second later :-(

5idn'( matter, elf player was at 4 life, as soon as he crqcks the fetch to play decay he,s dead to bolt.

RUG players also had rough//tumble in hand with bolt.

He didn't have to crack his fetch to make a black mana - he had Birchlore + untapped Visionary to do that and could untap the Arbor for the green mana he needed to cast the Decay.

He would've probably lost anyway, so it wouldn't have mattered, but still :smile:

I finished 5-2-2 at the event. I didn't have another fetch to put in and because of zero testing with no white, I stayed with the white splash. Sliver and teeg won me one game each, so I'm glad I stuck with it. There were a handful of times however where swan song would have been REDICULOUS. I may work on that next...my show and tell opponent and bug delver opponent who beat me woulda both lost to it.

oh...and I got a draw in round 1 with charbelcher. SA-Weeeet.

I found out that the key to beating miracles is hardcasting hoof into their countertop lock...no 8 drops on top??? ;)

esper stoneblade no longer scares me either. They run out of counterspells and removal just like all the other underground sea decks ^.~

I got $50 so I guess that's something.

Congrats to everyone seeing success with Elves lately. I can't wait to sleeve up later this month and give it my shot at success as its been far to long that I've sat down in a tournament setting.

This is directed at Julian, I would also like to inquire as to why you elected to leave out the Swan Songs for your last event. Is it because it was a smaller event? If so do you have a plan for Paris?

Is there really a point to side in discard against miracles? They play with the top of their library.

I like thoughtseize vs them...it can get a force/counterspell so you can resolve a spell with cmc > 1 (ie: natural order...or like I said earlier, craterhoof hardcast lol)

90% of the reason I want discard vs Miracles is to take their SDT on the play or gurantee my Pithing Needle to resolve.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

90% of the reason I want discard vs Miracles is to take their SDT on the play or gurantee my Pithing Needle to resolve.

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this 100%. w/o top, their deck is really awkward

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Julian23

90% of the reason I want discard vs Miracles is to take their SDT on the play or gurantee my Pithing Needle to resolve.

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So does your amount of thoughtseize depend if you're on the play or on the draw? (3 on the play, 2 on the draw for example).

Julian, how should I side vs BUG delver/Team America?

I add +3 Abrupt Decay +1 Natural Order +1 Progenitus +2/3 Thoughtseize
I cut (your main probably) -2 Herritage druid -1 Nettle Sentinel -1 Viridian Shaman? and -4 Glimpse because of Hymn? I think you keep at least 2 Glimpse vs any deck, am I right? And vs FoW decks it's still a nice bait. But what to cut? -1 Craterhoof -2nd Sentinel? Or add only 2 Thoughtseize?

Elves is still in the run for the GP!

Thanks for all the help ^_^!

I've been playing the TA matchup a lot with Jori (deviant) on Magic Online, it's probably the one I'm most experienced in. Since TA often sides out Hymns, I don't think they are as much of concern. But even if they keep, I still like Glimpse here as their clock is significantly slower than all the other Delver decks .due to their lack of 1cmc removal/reach outside of the 0-3 sb Disfigures. If you Decay Delver, you will usually have bough just the ~1.5 turns you needed to setup a semi-profitable Glimpse.

Thus far, I like:
+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Natural Order
+1 Progenitus

-2 Heritage Druid
-1 Craterhoof Behemoth
-1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
-1 Viridian Shaman (unless he's got 2+ Cages)
-1 Glimpse of Nature
-1 GSZ/Visionary/Glimpse - not to sure here. Depends a lot on the amount of Cages and Spell Pierces I see and whether you feel that your opponent is under the (false) assumption that he's supposed to take the control role.

Ruric is in theory good against Tombstalker but double blocking is still a thing and getting it Submerged is a total blowout. You want Progenitus.
Pithing Needle is something I would somehow like to fit a single copy of into the lest but I feel it might not warrant its inclusion. Prime target is Wasteland as it lets you develop your mana much better, i.e. not holding back Cradle. It's also got the bonus of turning off Liliana but I don't feel that's enough

Definitely keep the full set of Nettle Sentinels. You really want to minimize your vulnerability to Golgari Charm and have a reliable sac-outlet for NO->Prog. Also don't overcommit Symbiotes to the board. If you can afford to play it carefully (meaning that they either don't have Delver or you're able to Decay it) try to never have more than 1 Insect on the table at any given time (unless the situation really calls for it) because of Charm; in a perfect world, this will be the only creature you will lose to Charm in most situations.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Julian23

I've been playing the TA matchup a lot with Jori (deviant) on Magic Online, it's probably the one I'm most experienced in. Since TA often sides out Hymns, I don't think they are as much of concern. But even if they keep, I still like Glimpse here as their clock is significantly slower than all the other Delver decks .due to their lack of 1cmc removal/reach outside of the 0-3 sb Disfigures. If you Decay Delver, you will usually have bough just the ~1.5 turns you needed to setup a semi-profitable Glimpse.

Thus far, I like:
+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Natural Order
+1 Progenitus

-2 Heritage Druid
-1 Craterhoof Behemoth
-1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
-1 Viridian Shaman (unless he's got 2+ Cages)
-1 Glimpse of Nature
-1 GSZ/Visionary/Glimpse - not to sure here. Depends a lot on the amount of Cages and Spell Pierces I see and whether you feel that your opponent is under the (false) assumption that he's supposed to take the control role.

Ruric is in theory good against Tombstalker but double blocking is still a thing and getting it Submerged is a total blowout. You want Progenitus.
Pithing Needle is something I would somehow like to fit a single copy of into the lest but I feel it might not warrant its inclusion. Prime target is Wasteland as it lets you develop your mana much better, i.e. not holding back Cradle. It's also got the bonus of turning off Liliana but I don't feel that's enough

Definitely keep the full set of Nettle Sentinels. You really want to minimize your vulnerability to Golgari Charm and have a reliable sac-outlet for NO->Prog. Also don't overcommit Symbiotes to the board. If you can afford to play it carefully (meaning that they either don't have Delver or you're able to Decay it) try to never have more than 1 Insect on the table at any given time (unless the situation really calls for it) because of Charm; in a perfect world, this will be the only creature you will lose to Charm in most situations.

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Thanks!

Yeah, I didn't even think about cutting Ruric, because they don't even have Plow or Karakas. But they will side out Tombstalker, or that is what I see most of the time!?

You are right about Sentinel.. Damn charms! And cage is anoying but a lot of people only run 1, and you can always Decay it. Oh, and if I would play TA, I would keep Hymn on the play and cut it on the draw. But besides all that, it is an easy matchup don't you think? I might want to side like this:

+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Natural Order
+1 Progenitus

-2 Heritage Druid
-1 Craterhoof Behemoth
-1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed (I'm not sure, but don't know what else to cut. Sentinel is a 2/2. Maybe 1 Visionary but that's weird)
-1 Viridian Shaman
-2 Glimpse of Nature

Already feel like you did enough testing for the GP =)? Haha

Siding out a Visionary is definitely fine when you're up against an aggressive deck with evasion (read: Delver).

The matchup is definitely in our favour before boarding but can swing around a bit depending on how much dedicated hate they will bring in. God forbid they have several copies of Submerge as that card is highly synergistic with Delver and make it even hard for you to draw into Abrupt Decay.

Since it has Flying, I don't see them siding out Tombstalker. It's pretty much their best path to victory if they don't get in with an early Delver.

Besides not needing white mana, what are the advantages of viridian shaman compared to pridemage? Would pridemage in the main increase our odds vs miracles? It's beats for more (also costs 2 instead of 3) and you can cast it when you want to without needing to keep it in your hand. Is it much of a problem that it isn't an elf? (besides obvious applications with symbiote vs MUD). Same case for harmonic sliver but it sticks around to block or feed natural order.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blastoderm

Besides not needing white mana, what are the advantages of viridian shaman compared to pridemage? Would pridemage in the main increase our odds vs miracles? It's beats for more (also costs 2 instead of 3) and you can cast it when you want to without needing to keep it in your hand. Is it much of a problem that it isn't an elf? (besides obvious applications with symbiote vs MUD). Same case for harmonic sliver but it sticks around to block or feed natural order.

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The discussion was always between Harmonic Sliver and Pridemage, people used to play one of those together with a Viridian Shaman most of the time. Shaman was mostly used vs equipment, the other cards were for problematic enchantments. But most people dropped white completely. White was especially used for Gaddock Teeg, but harms our own gameplan and we now have Ruric to fight Storm =)! But when I played white I always used Harmonic Sliver, because you can kill Sneak Attack after a Show and Tell (if I'm right ^^)!

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Originally Posted by Lans89

The discussion was always between Harmonic Sliver and Pridemage, people used to play one of those together with a Viridian Shaman most of the time. Shaman was mostly used vs equipment, the other cards were for problematic enchantments. But most people dropped white completely. White was especially used for Gaddock Teeg, but harms our own gameplan and we now have Ruric to fight Storm =)! But when I played white I always used Harmonic Sliver, because you can kill Sneak Attack after a Show and Tell (if I'm right ^^)!

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While you can kill Sneak Attack when put into play off Show and Tell, your opponent still just need one red mana to annihilate you or to draw 14 cards.

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Originally Posted by lordofthepit

While you can kill Sneak Attack when put into play off Show and Tell, your opponent still just need one red mana to annihilate you or to draw 14 cards.

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True, but what about Omniscience :cool:

But would sliver/pridemage be useful in the main to combat miracles? The top 32 of the last scg showed that quite a few ppl play miralces.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lans89

True, but what about Omniscience :cool:

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The last time I mentioned something similar (the Bane of Progress-discussion), someone yelled "Yes, but OmniShow can just go and kill you at instant speed", so there's that. If they have it, you're dead before the trigger blowing up their Omniscience has resolved.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Blastoderm

But would sliver/pridemage be useful in the main to combat miracles? The top 32 of the last scg showed that quite a few ppl play miralces.

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Enchantments are less common then artifacts so I like to stick with Viridian Shaman in my main. Ofcourse, if your meta is filled with a lot of annoying enchantments, it can be the right call for you :smile: