[Primer] Nic Fit

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Originally Posted by MrIggins

I've liked Sylvan more, drawing cards is nice and we have plenty to do on turn 1, but I also don't own Guiles and haven't tried them.

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The benefit of Mirri's Guile is that you can shuffle away the top 3 after you peek but before you draw (fetches).
Still i prefer Sylvan Library 1 and 2 aswell before adding Mirri's Guile.
I used to play Guile as a one of in BUG Delver, pretty sweet T1 play.

So as for the Scape over Sneak question, i am currently not comfortable bringing Jund to the table. While the end game is pretty solid i still feel that Jund lacks the reach in removal and tools to fight combo in comparison to Junk. Altough i think junk lacks an alternative end game next to the "fair" plan. Thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

So as for the Scape over Sneak question, i am currently not comfortable bringing Jund to the table. While the end game is pretty solid i still feel that Jund lacks the reach in removal and tools to fight combo in comparison to Junk. Altough i think junk lacks an alternative end game next to the "fair" plan. Thoughts?

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That is very true but one could say that combo is at a "low" right now.
There are too many Delvers' decks flying around at the moment. So you can bet you won't face many or/and that you can lose 1 match and still get to top 8.

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

So as for the Scape over Sneak question, i am currently not comfortable bringing Jund to the table. While the end game is pretty solid i still feel that Jund lacks the reach in removal and tools to fight combo in comparison to Junk. Altough i think junk lacks an alternative end game next to the "fair" plan. Thoughts?

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You lose hatebears but gain an "unfair" plan that greatly accelerates your closing speed. Junk does better against the unfair strategies as a whole, but with how fair and grindy games can be in the current format I'd rather take the build with a more powerful proactive plan and better topdecks (which I maintain is Scape).

Is anyone playing Junk with Bob? I really want to make this work:

Lands (22)
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures (18)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk

Noncreatures (20)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
2 Crop Rotation
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Collective Brutality
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

Sideboard (15)
1 Maze of Ith
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crop Rotation
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Golgari Charm
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Nissa, Vital Force
3 Open Slots

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MrIggins

You lose hatebears but gain an "unfair" plan that greatly accelerates your closing speed. Junk does better against the unfair strategies as a whole, but with how fair and grindy games can be in the current format I'd rather take the build with a more powerful proactive plan and better topdecks (which I maintain is Scape).

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So it seems to me that the Scapeshift version is sort of a metagame predator, right? I am trying to figure out what to look for choosing a list that can compete (at least on average) in any given meta.


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Originally Posted by Bobmans

So it seems to me that the Scapeshift version is sort of a metagame predator, right? I am trying to figure out what to look for choosing a list that can compete (at least on average) in any given meta.


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Nic Fit in general is a meta predator. Different versions just perform slightly better in slightly different metas.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Nic Fit in general is a meta predator. Different versions just perform slightly better in slightly different metas.

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I know, but i cannot accept it.

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

I know, but i cannot accept it.

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"I reject your reality and substitute my own."

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

I know, but i cannot accept it.

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Have you tried Nyx Fit? Can attack a diverse/unknown meta simply because it has an answer for everything. Academy Rector for Dovescape, Overwhelming Splendor, or Cruel Reality/Sandwurm Convergence can give you a win against anything.

I've got a proposed list that gains a firmer midrange plan by adding 4 walkers (all token-producing to continue the Evo Leap plan), but haven't had a chance to do any testing.

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Originally Posted by Amulet of the HangingLamp

Is anyone playing Junk with Bob? I really want to make this work:

Lands (22)
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

Creatures (18)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Eternal Witness
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk

Noncreatures (20)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Path to Exile
2 Crop Rotation
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Collective Brutality
1 Sylvan Library
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Toxic Deluge

Sideboard (15)
1 Maze of Ith
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 Pithing Needle
1 Crop Rotation
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Golgari Charm
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Nissa, Vital Force
3 Open Slots

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I've played it before. I like pairing Bob with Ranger of Eos in Junk. Ranger, especially when you have the mana to use it is a fantastic card. It's basically a draw 3 (just one card is a 3/2 body) and there's some very interesting tutor targets like Walking Ballista, Sylvan Safekeeper, and extra DRS. I think that such a build has a lot of potential. 2 Rangers is the maximum you want, but it's a real good 4 drop, much better than Rhino in my opinion. If I were going to play it right now, my MB would look similar to yours except I would drop the Thragtusk and 3 Rhinos for another land, 2 Ranger of Eos, and a Walking Ballista. I would reconsider the Meren too, because it plays poorly with Ballista.

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Originally Posted by square_two

Have you tried Nyx Fit? Can attack a diverse/unknown meta simply because it has an answer for everything. Academy Rector for Dovescape, Overwhelming Splendor, or Cruel Reality/Sandwurm Convergence can give you a win against anything.

I've got a proposed list that gains a firmer midrange plan by adding 4 walkers (all token-producing to continue the Evo Leap plan), but haven't had a chance to do any testing.

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I have, but not recently. Feels that its plan can be disrupted easily since it leans on Rector so heavily. So the B plan here is either more creatures for a regular fair plan or go with more combat walkers?

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

I have, but not recently. Feels that its plan can be disrupted easily since it leans on Rector so heavily. So the B plan here is either more creatures for a regular fair plan or go with more combat walkers?

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I've won with Lingering Souls beats :D

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Originally Posted by Echelon

"I reject your reality and substitute my own."

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I quite enjoy my reality. Every deck I make is great.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

I have, but not recently. Feels that its plan can be disrupted easily since it leans on Rector so heavily. So the B plan here is either more creatures for a regular fair plan or go with more combat walkers?

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It's very hard to be disrupted, otherwise. The main problem is Surgical, beside that you have good answers against almost everything.

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Originally Posted by Yutao

Guile being popped by deed feels real bad tho.

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Meh, if you pop it you'll need it. We're fine with DRS and token producing combat walkers, so why should Guiles' CMC be a problem all of a sudden? If you feel bad for blowing up your own shit this is not the deck for you. Just accept that it will happen every so often, end of story. Besides, it's not that Guile doesn't do shit until it's blown up. How much card selection do you want it to provide before it's OK to blow it up..? Seriously, it gives you so much advantage over your opponent so quickly that it's perfectly fine to blow it up after a shuffle or 2.

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Originally Posted by Amulet of the HangingLamp

Is anyone playing Junk with Bob? I really want to make this work:

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Mirri's Guile also seems like a wonderful fit for Bob Fit.

I've been toying around with a straight GB build recently with a delirium package, it's felt solid. Emrakul is an amazing top end for fair matchups, esp when you can rebuy her with twin towers. It's almost a lock in the late game, and all are traverseable. I've liked that it's not too reliant on Explorers too and can do a good rock deck impression. With the Emrakul Grave Titan has felt unnecessary, might be better as another Tracker which has continued to be phenomenal. Grim Flayers have also been impressive. Anyone else toyed around with Traverse? Any nice creatures/lands I'm missing?

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Grim Flayer
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Minister of Pain
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Emrakul, the Promised End

2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited

2 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
1 Malstrom Pulse

3 Abrupt Decay

2 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library

2 Nihil Spellbomb

3 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Volrath’s Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire

SB
3 Lost Legacy
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Duress
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Karakas
1 Thoughtseize
2 Choke
2 Mindbreak Trap

@Whitefaces: You could try running a Courser of Kruphix. Its extra card type can be relevant for both Traverse and Emrakul.

T1 fetch, Therapy yourself and name Courser also means Delirium on T2 :laugh:.

Good shout, great with tracker as well. Not something to really traverse for but suits the deck well, so maybe even two copies of it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

I have, but not recently. Feels that its plan can be disrupted easily since it leans on Rector so heavily. So the B plan here is either more creatures for a regular fair plan or go with more combat walkers?

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There's an option for a sideboard fatty to bring in as a GSZ target as a secondary plan in post-board games, that has already been on our agenda for awhile. Sigarda, Titania, Carnage Tyrant, take your pick. Outside of Deathrite (and the 4c decks usually don't prioritize getting green mana out early), decks don't have a game 1 way to interact with Academy Rector or the bigass enchantment she brings out. Council's Judgment is about the only way, and Dovescape usually is the go-to for control decks that use it.

This is the list I'm thinking about, spurred by some ideas from Arianrhod.

More tokens, so Intents come in. Trying out Thoughtseizes main. Could see +1 GSZ +1 Eternal Witness instead, or lose the Thoughtseizes for Collective Brutality (actually that sounds like a fine idea since going back up to 4 Souls).

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Academy Rector

2 Fatal Push
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
2 Evolutionary Leap
4 Lingering Souls
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Dovescape
1 Overwhelming Splendor

2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion

4 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Gavony Township

sb::
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Helm of Obediance
2 Choke
1 To the Slaughter
1 Fatal Push
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtseize
2 Lost Legacy
1 Sandwurm Convergence

With a couple of Intents, Kevin had the idea of throwing in Helm post-board (alongside Leyline). If opponent's choose to side in Rest in Peace then that is also fine for that sideplan. Maybe the rest of the board could be tweaked for Intent targets or include a fatty to GSZ for (but I'd want to go back up to 3 GSZ for that).

Another list I've been tinkering around with, if it happens to stir any ideas:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Argothian Enchantress
2 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Courser of Kruphix
4 Riptide Chimera
1 Eidolon of Blossoms
1 Doomwake Giant
1 Carnage Tyrant

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Trial Of Ambition
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Trial of Strength
2 Sylvan Library
2 Cartouche of Ambition
2 Toxic Deluge
3 Green Sun's Zenith

22 lands

Riptide is a large 3/4 flyer, lots of value if it can stick around and bounce Trial of Ambition. Really wanted Oath of Nissa to work, since paying G every turn to look at top 3 and draw a card is crazy - but the stupid thing can't grab enchantments. Might still be fine as 1-of to grab lands/critters. Inspired by some of the last ideas in the sylvan plug thread.

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Originally Posted by square_two

There's an option for a sideboard fatty to bring in as a GSZ target as a secondary plan in post-board games, that has already been on our agenda for awhile. Sigarda, Titania, Carnage Tyrant, take your pick. Outside of Deathrite (and the 4c decks usually don't prioritize getting green mana out early), decks don't have a game 1 way to interact with Academy Rector or the bigass enchantment she brings out. Council's Judgment is about the only way, and Dovescape usually is the go-to for control decks that use it.

This is the list I'm thinking about, spurred by some ideas from Arianrhod.

More tokens, so Intents come in. Trying out Thoughtseizes main. Could see +1 GSZ +1 Eternal Witness instead, or lose the Thoughtseizes for Collective Brutality (actually that sounds like a fine idea since going back up to 4 Souls).

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Is there also a more standardized version of the deck, so i can at least determine what base cards i need to buy to build this? And i notice that the Starfield of Nyx version has fallen out of flavor?