Reports for tourneys where Enchantress has possibly placed would be found on Morphling.de
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Reports for tourneys where Enchantress has possibly placed would be found on Morphling.de
I've been messing around with this deck after putting it down for 6 months, my early testing leads me to many of the same conclusions I had last year.Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymos
Chrome Mox is cool but it cuts into enchantment count, it's really a toss up. You go off about 1/2 a turn quicker when you ramp into Moxes on that big turn but getting 2 Moxes in your first ten cards is like getting Hymned by your deck most of the time. I think I'm gonna stick without for now.
I don't see Ground Seal main. What problem deck is this addressing? I've seen GY strats on the decline lately but maybe that's just me. I still think this can be dealt with in SB best.
Dovescape + Shusher = <3. Totally owns many slow matchups and both are cards that probably belong in the deck anyways. Tested GSZ did not like it, your mileage may vary but I would have always rather dropped a Guile. On a related note I'll still never play this deck with less than 3 Guiles again, what a bomb.
I still like Blood Moon main, I mean there are a handful of decks it just locks down and sometimes you can just completely catch people with their pants down.
Sigil is crucial, why would you cut it for Teegs in the board? I've had many games where I never drew a card off an Enchantress and still won because I ramped up quick my Enchantress's got countered, I stuck a Sigil and hit the ground running with some 4/4's.
I'm all for cutting an E.Grass I'm down to 3, but I'm seriously considering putting it back to 4, there have never been more black creatures running around and Hexmage Depths is making a comeback not to mention about 3 flavors of deck to beat of the month run Progen.
I like Choke MD still as well. So many blue decks running around and no MD answers for a resolved Choke for many of them. Makes Grass much more relevant as well and since we are seeing less and less Daze... (well maybe more now that Hive Mind is coming back).
On a related note to Hive Mind I think Leyline is past its prime. I never really liked it but strongly considered running it for a second there at the end. I think the 3-4x tutor board is the way to go and a good candidate for Enlightened target of the month goes to Sundial of the Infinite. With 3x tutors (what I run) it gives you 4x shots at dropping one turn 2, then barring Force of Will once it hits play they have no answers usually. So then their only wincon is S/T for Emrakul which we should have 2/3 O Rings and a Karakas for post board all of which are uncounterable when dropped off a Show. Then of course you still have a couple extra slots for tutor targets for GY decks, Karmic Justice, and whatever else is a problem recently. The other option is 4x Angel's Grace but then you are completely throwing your SB at one deck which seems like a bad idea.
I've been playing a bit online lately with enchantress. None of the big dailies and such, just the 2 man ques. With Hive Mind I've been finding that if I don't get a sanctum early I lose to pact. If I do get it, then I'm golden. I'll grab a red source and sit pretty. I have a feeling I'm going to have to work out a better plan or else just look at it like the storm matchup. One of the two...Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
Ground Seal main is only collaterally about the GY hate. Ground Seal's ability to dig is one of the most consistently under-rated aspects of the deck-type by most Enchantress players.
I've been testing a lot of consistency issues and have found that between going to 19 non-Sanctum lands + 3 ESG/Mox and running 4 GSZ my mulligan rate has dropped dramatically. Of 60 goldfished games, only 2 required mulliganing below 6, assuming that any hand without a turn 2 Enchantress/Sylvan Library needed to be mulled. Exceptions for having multiple turn 3 enchantresses and ways to slow the opponent down (Grass mainly)
I don't see why you would ever run less than 4 Elephant Grass. I wish I could run 8.
Also, testing indicates that Gaddock might get cut. He fucks up your GSZ, which is big.
Since Enchantress is my pet deck, and I've been working on a new variant I decided I would join into the discussion. So since my metagame is filled with control decks I was looking for a way to make the deck more resillient to the avalanche of counters they can put on you in the early game. It struck me that Enchantress wants to be the control deck in most if not all of our matchups and to be able to deal with decks that are going to counter you you would need to resolve any form of enchantress effect OR any other way to gain card advantage. To achieve this I decided I was going to try and make a G/W/U list. This is what I am supposing:
4 Presence
4 Enchantress
4 Energy Field/Elephant Grass
4 Sterling Grove
2 Back to Basics
2 Solitary Confinement
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
1 Moat
1 Words of Wind
4 Brainstorm
2 Replenish
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Living Wish
// (flexslot, right now wishes for shusher, teeg, sanctum, emrakul and possibly maze of ith from the sideboard)
3 Wild Growth
2 Utopia Sprawl
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Dovescape
1 Sanctum
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
4 Forest
3 Plains
2 Island
Sideboard:
Wishboard:
1x Emrakul
1x Serra's Sanctum
1x Vexing Shusher
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Null Rod
1x City of Solitude
1x Replenish
1x Karmic Justice
To accomodate Brainstorm & Back to Basics I needed more shuffle effects and more basic lands. Luckily, this synergizes pretty well by simply upping our fetchland count to 8. Combined with 2 Enlightened Tutors and 4 Sterling Groves this gives us 14 shuffle effects. Having Brainstorm drastically improves both our transition into mid and lategame aswell as our opening hands.
Playing Blue also gives us acces to Energy Field and Standstill. I quickly dumped Standstill as a viable option, since we don't actually draw into reactive cards it's not nearly as good, but Energy Field is a very viable card. However, it combines badly with the amount of shuffle effects in the deck, and as such I'm still leaning towards Elephant Grass over Energy Field. I tried a list without Back to Basics and with Energy Field, but due to the increase of duals it didn't get any more resilient as it's easily killed using Wasteland, with no way to restore any sort of protection on instant speed. The only decks where it's actually better then Elephant Grass is most Zoo variants. I'm still considering a 3 to 1 split, but it seems hardly worth it.
You win the game by resolving a Words of Wind and locking the game with Dovescape and Shusher, or make a buttload of Angels with a resolved Sigil.
Sideboard seems obvious. Leyline vs Combo, which still sees regular play here in the Netherlands. I also really enjoy having 4 possible Enlightened tutors mainboard allowing alot of turn 1 tutor into turn 2 Null Rod, Wheel of Sun and Moon or later Karmic Justice and City of Solitude. Most of it should be relatively obvious.
Energy Field: Um, why? Sure, I can see it as a decent stall for early aggro, but in a control meta you're not going to automatically have an out to their counters T1+. Chances are a card will get countered thus EF dies. Not to mention the fact that control decks rarely ever have game plans to win in in the early stages of the game (T4-7) where Enchantress suffers most. Contrary to the semi-combo style of our deck we are at our core a control deck. Sure, you could argue that it if you don't attempt to cast anything it could stall for X turns until you reach a discard phase. Great, but in that time, assuming they don't already have a solid win-con, they've most likely had sufficient time to draw into more counters or some form of removal for a resolved spell. The point being that EF is a subpar choice IMO for a control meta, particularly since it has enormous diminishing returns against control decks where we're constantly trying to resolve spells.Quote:
Originally Posted by MVC
Back to Basics is a meta card so I won't argue this point too hard. However assuming your meta is more U-oriented control I would say MDing 2 City of Solitude would serve you better as opposed to SBing them. CoS once resolved auto-negates all counters until it is has been answered. This, to me, seems like it would be much better for you. It also wouldn't hurt to have Choke in the SB. BtB is great for its utility, but decks that Choke couldn't hurt (Zoo/Rock) are either already good (or horrible) MU's and I honestly wouldn't find myself desiring BtB to improve such MU's. Also don't forget that decks like Landstill or Ux-Control have numerous basics they can tutor up to respond to BtB. Remember that decks such as these often require only 1-2 basics to function in a decent capacity whereas Choke essentially locks down their entire manabase.
Runed Halo is a fair call as it can answer combo (to an extent) as well as various creatures and the dreaded Jace 2.0 but I, personally, would prefer O-Ring as it has a little extra utility for what it can answer.
I don't agree with Brainstorm. Yes, its an amazing cantrip, but just because you splash blue doesn't mean you should run it. Unlike other decks running/splashing blue we can rely on Sylvan Library/Mirri's Guile that will not only fullfill the same function but do it better by upping the enchantment count as well as staying on green, the dominant color in our deck. Heck, you could even argue Ground Seal as it provides a useful utility while also replacing itself with a draw.
@ Living Wish: Not really ideal for your build of the deck. Firstly, running only 1, although reducing the risk of a somewhat dead draw, means that a) if the Wish gets countered/discarded you now have no way to obtain said Wish targets, and b) You're far less likely to draw into the 1-of Wish when required, even with our 8 Enchantress's. This is just the problem with Wish itself. Lets look at the Wish targets you've chosen:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Serra's Sanctum
1 Maze of Ith
Okay, so, a somewhat standard list for Living Wish (at least, in this deck).
@ Emrakul: Emrakul is win-more in a good majority of MU's. Against Mirror/S&T/long-game control he can find great use for us but considering your deck list hes far from ideal. Even builds such as mine running 4/4 Growth/Sprawl and 2 Sanctum have a difficult time trying to cast Emrakul, which I can imagine is even higher for your deck with a 3/2 split and only 1 MD Sanctum. True, you've got 1 in the board but if the Wish target is Emrakul you now have no way to retrieve that Sanctum. And let us not forget that if your opponent can answer that 1-of Sanctum you now have no way to cast Emrakul as Sanctum is considered our "cheat," for him. Even in an ideal board position a majority of the time by the time you can cast him you could just as easily win with any other wincon available to us. Its a rather rare situation for this deck where you absolutely require Emrakul to win.
@ Teeg: This is a fair Wish-target that provides a valuable utility, so I don't really have anything negative to say about him.
@ Shusher: Similar to Teeg.
@ Sanctum: Anyone, including myself, who has or is currently running a Wish list always picks to run a 1-of Sanctum in the SB, but you still IMO require that 2nd Sanctum in the main to complement the Wish Sanctum. Just because you can Wish for a Sanctum doesn't mean you can flippantly take out Sanctum and assume the Wish replaces a MD Sanctum because the truth is, it doesn't. MD Sanctum's can't be countered and can only be answered with nonbasic hate such as Wasteland or Moon. A SB Sanctum requires the opponent to use 1 of the 10-12+ counters on the Wish to negate it (which, as someone who was running 3-4 Wishes trust me, a counter on a Wish for us happens more often than you would think).
@ Maze of Ith: I can understand the use of this for answering their KotR or other such x/x creatures but what does MoI provide that would be better-suited by hate thats more universal such as upping the O-Ring count? In a more Aggro meta, sure, I could somewhat see a use for Maze>O-Ring, but in a control/combo meta O-Ring answers more threats that could hurt us, esp. opposing Emrakuls.
Ultimatly the purpose of Wish boards is to provide a toolbox with which to answer and threat (such as Belcher/Aggro Loam with Burning Wish) or to provide more instances of cards desired/evasion (such as Spring Tide(or whichever variant) with Cunning Wish). In the case of answering threats, our deck is designed to have universal utility against any deck. When looking at cards that give us issue, what card would you use to answer that couldn't be replaced by an enchantment which would also benefit from the 5-6 MD Enchantment tutors as well as enable Enchantress triggers?
In the cast of providing extra instances of cards, really the only card I would want to see more of is Sanctum which still necessitates you have 2 MD.
Living Wish is cute, but IMO suboptimal for this deck. Now, like I said before creatures such as Teeg/Shusher still provide very valuable utilities that can't necessarily be replaced with Enchantments so you may want to consider testing GSZ which not only fetches toolbox answers but provides extra instances of Enchantress.
@ Manabase
2 Islands seems excessive, esp. since the blue for this deck is intended as a splash, not the magical 3rd color. I am also warry at the 1-of Sanctum which, if destroyed, suddenly slows down your tempo amazingly with the only extra instance being a Wish target. If I had to alter your manabase, here is what I would do:
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
5 Forest
2 Plains
1 Island
I would personally opt not to run a basic island period (rather upping the Forest count) but thats a personal preference most people would prefer to avoid. I also removed 2 Misty Rainforest in place of 2 Flooded Strand as this enables a tutor of both duals as well as giving access to White which I've found in my build to be often times necessary over green.
I'm also incredibly reluctant to reduce the count of Utopia Sprawl, esp. in this build. Albeit the "Forest only," rule sucks but it provides us with whichever color we need fixed for a mere G investment and, esp. in your blue-heavy build, I wouldn't suggest reducing them. I would prefer to keep the counts at 4/4 or 3/3 but you could just as easily do something like 2/4 of Growth/Sprawl.
Well, thats the bulk of what I have to say about your decklist. Sorry if I seem to get overly critical, but I'm just trying to be constructive. The meta in America is obviously going to be different from the Netherlands, so your average MU's are most likely going to be different so I'm sure some of your card choices have relevance.
Something I would like you to playtest is the old-school semi-combo GWu builds that ran Cloud of Faeries and Stroke of Genius as a win-con (which you could even consider running as part of your Wish list). I'm sure this won't work out, but its just a little hobby of mine to go back to the Enchantress roots from time to time. :D
Forlorn Egoist
Allright, as for Energy Field, I fully agree with you, as I stated above already I wasn't convinced about it, and indeed it's not even great in a control matchup so I'm not running it at this moment. I just mentioned it to show that I considered it and that there might be a possibility for it to work out.
With BtB, I party agree. It's true that most UW(x)/landstill lists can easily play around them, however it also shuts down their manland, and combined with Elephant grass if they're not running Swords or Thopter Combo, they usually only have Jace 2.0 as a viable wincon, with Batterskull being a hassle, but due to the fact that the germ token is black less of a clock then it usually is. The thing I love about BtB is that it can also shut down, for example, Zoo, The Rock & B/W Discard's manabase and really put you in a more controlling position against most of the decks in the meta nowadays.
I did have City of Solitude mainboard, and it is in fact a great card if resolved, however it is too often that I found myself struggling to finally resolve a city that I nearly sacrificed my whole hand to take their counters, and against Landstill lists it was usually even harder. This is also where Brainstorm comes in, because it gives you a quicker way to recover from an empty hand, something that can really be hurtful. I also had Choke sideboard, however I removed it in favor of the wishboard. I can see that it might be worth putting in my sideboard again, however I would have to see where yet.
In response to your Brainstorm points, I really feel like it gives you extra gas to seal the deal more quickly if you are already comboing out. If your not, and you're fighting a war of attrition it allows you to keep up with the opponent by replacing your enchantment effects. I too am abit worried about the enchantement count, but so far I have not had any problems running Brainstorm. In all honesty I never tried Sylvan Library yet, however I did try Mirri's Guile and even though I felt the effect was amazing, it was only that amazing when you managed to play it in the first few turns, but it would basically cycle for G if you drew it while your comboing off. Even while you were in a rut, it rarely happened that I was hoping for a Mirri's Guile over really most of the cards in the deck. In my opinion this means that you would have to run at least 3 md, or maybe even 4, to make it worth playing at all. I just felt that it wasn't good enough to warrant that amount of slots.
The Wishboard: I see your point here. Though I don't agree that it doesn't suit this deck in particular, a single Wish is very random and probably doesn't work all that well. I did test Shusher & Teeg mainboard with 2 zeniths and Dryad Arbor, and even though it worked well on many occasions, Shusher and Teeg were too often not what I wanted to cast and were dead in my hand, which is why the wishboard appeals so much to me.
I can get behind you on the Emrakul point, my original list didn't even have it because I felt it was too win-more aswell, and even though it still is I figured that having the wish might make it a worthwhile inclusion into the wishboard again. The Maze of Ith is there cause it obviously is quite good and I figured that while I was making a wishboard it would be a decent inclusion. In all honestly I haven't wished for it often yet, and I'm not sure I want to keep it there. As for O-Ring, it is indeed very good but I simply didn't find a place for a second one in my MB yet. It's probably better then Runed Halo against most decks, but as you said Runed Halo is good for the combo matchup which is mainly why it's there.
I'm sure you are a much more experienced Enchantress player then I am, and I'll accept your manabase without hesitation. Maybe I did go overboard with the island count, but I mainly did it cause I ran more growths over sprawls since basic land is more reliable then something that can get as easily misstepped as growth/sprawl. My testing with something close to my current manabase showed that I was often missing out on green sources, and with the increased fetchland count I would basically always fetch green first, allowing me to play wild growth's on whichever land I would fetch next, which meant I could run less forests and more plains and islands. However if I'm going to run more forests, more sprawls also make sense so I think that in the end it won't matter much and your build might be more optimal.
Reasoning
In the end the reasoning for me to look for this build was cause I was looking to build a deck which would rely less on silver bullets in the mainboard (like City of Solitude, Shusher, Teeg, Aura of Silence etc) and would have better matchups against non-aggro decks and would be more consistent against more control-heavy decks due to not slowing down so much when our engine got countered. I also felt that Words of Wind was better then Words of War most of the time, even though it's not a direct wincon I felt it was more useful in the earlygame. Words of War has really only been amazing for me so far against fish, which can easily misstep elephant grass but will not always want to force a Words of War.
I did play abit with the old school CoF/WoW/Stroke decks and it was loads of fun but as you said, it's really not that viable right now.
Also, thanks for being as critical and straightforward as you are. I'm happy to hear other opinions and I'm hoping there's a way we can make this variant work out. An updated decklist could be:
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Elephant Grass
4 Sterling Grove
2 Back to Basics
2 Solitary Confinement
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
1 Moat
1 Words of Wind
4 Brainstorm
2 Replenish
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Living Wish?
// (maybe a sprawl instead of this slot? It would remove the necessity for a wishboard though)
2 Wild Growth
3 Utopia Sprawl
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Dovescape
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
5 Forest
2 Plains
1 Island
Sideboard:
Wishboard:
1x Serra's Sanctum
1x Vexing Shusher
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1x Null Rod
1x City of Solitude
1x Replenish
1x Karmic Justice
1x Choke
No problem. I'm happy to help out whenever I can. Enchantress is definitely a favored child of mine, although without Moats I feel I've taken it as far as I can at the moment. =(
I'm not necessarily implying that Wish boards have no place in Enchantress, I'm simply saying that its one of those things where you need to decide if the added utility of it is worth compromising deck/SB space. At the time I was running Wish here was my list:
3 Living Wish
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Peacekeeper
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Argothian Enchantress
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Serra's Sanctum
1 Bojuka Bog (Flex spot between this or several utility enchantments based on expected meta)
Albeit I dedicated more space than you did, but often times I was running into a problem where my aggro-defensive MD would lose to control because I compromised SB slots to deal with it and this is an issue I've seen come up with many Enchantress players where they construct the MD specifically to answer a more aggro or control meta and in doing so compromise their SB ability to answer the other MU archetype.
I think that given the proper cards/tuning/meta a Wish board could become an entirely viable subtype to our deck. As of yet, however, I think it occupies more the role of a trick than a strategical improvement of the deck. In my case once I removed the Wish board and replaced the SB with City of Solitude/Choke/Pithing Needle I noticed my ability to deal with control improve far more than it ever did with Wish, all-the-while permitting me to retain a MD more able to deal with aggro.
Wish boards have always been a personal favorite and I would love to see an Enchantress use them sucessfully in a tournament. However, as they have as of yet been unable to post decent tourney results or proven themselves viable from personal experience, my conclusion is they still require greater amounts of playtesting before being consider optimal strategies.
Forlorn Egoist
Replacing an Enchantress with a wish isn't something that occured to me yet, but it makes alot of sense.
As for City, Choke & Pithing Needle mainboard, with (in my opinion), the increased resiliency against control/U decks we don't need City & Choke main anymore. They are however stlill very good sideboard cards which I'll keep in. Against U control, I guess the BtB's come out and City & Choke come in but even without having those mainboard the BtB's will be strong against control decks and have a better game1 against non-blue decks like B/W discard & the Rock.
Now for a wishboard, let's look at the decks (I know of), playing with a wishboard:
Storm Combo (TNT)
Solidarity
Aggro Loam
Cephalid Breakfast
Junk Depths
Out of these only Junk Depths and Cephalid Breakfast run Living Wish.
Cephalid uses it to assemble it's combo faster which heavily relies on creature effects.
Junk depths uses it in a similar fashion as we do, a toolbox with various ingredients. The only thing transferrable would be Kataki, which I guess would make a valuable addition easing game 1 against affinity or metalworker.
So as a wishboard (I just really want to try it lol) I would like to propose this:
3 Living Wish
1 Argothian Enchantress
1 Serra's Sanctum
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Kataki, War's Wage
I feel that between Moat, Elephant Grass and Solitary Confinement I have no need for Peacekeeper as it is usually easy for our deck to ramp up to 4 mana turn 3 making moat a better option 80% of the time.
This also means that the extra Enlightened Tutors can come out of the sideboard because you have more acces maindeck to whatever is in there already. However, I would like to run an extra Enlightened Tutor to still enable turn1 tutor into Wheel or Null Rod.
This leaves this for a sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 City of Solitude
1 Choke
1 Null Rod
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Replenish
Wishboard:
1 Argothian Enchantress
1 Serra's Sanctum
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Kataki, War's Wage
This means I will have to cut two slots from the mainboard. Any suggestions as what those may be? (assuming I'll keep the blue splash and want to play 4 brainstorm)
I feel that with the addition of the wishboard we may go down to 3 Sterling Groves so that would be the first slot I'd cut. We might also be able to cut Words of Wind since the control matchup is already stronger and I feel that Words of Wind is the strongest on an empty board, while it's not all that necessary against the aggro matchup. And since we're not running Stroke combo it really might not be all that useful.
The decklist would look like this:
4 Enchantress's Presence
3 Argothian Enchantress
4 Elephant Grass
3 Sterling Grove
2 Back to Basics
2 Solitary Confinement
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Runed Halo
1 Moat
4 Brainstorm
3 Enlightened Tutor
3 Living Wish
2 Replenish
2 Wild Growth
3 Utopia Sprawl
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Dovescape
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Serra's Sanctum
1 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
5 Forest
2 Plains
1 Island
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 City of Solitude
1 Choke
1 Null Rod
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Replenish
Wishboard:
1 Argothian Enchantress
1 Serra's Sanctum
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Vexing Shusher
1 Kataki, War's Wage
How does this look? I intend to take this list or at least a BtB-based list to a few tournaments to see how it performs, I'll post results as soon as I have them. If there's any more suggestions I'm completely open to them.
@ Moat > Peacekeeper
I totally aggree but not all of us are fortunate enough to own Moats (although 1 Enchantress player in my meta MD's 2 of them, damn him *shakes fist*).
Yea, throwing the Argothian in the SB essentially gives you Enchantress's 9/10 although she now costs 4 rather than 2. :p
I don't particularly agree with cutting 1 Sterling for 1 ET. Yea, ET accelerates the target a turn earlier at instant speed, but Sterling provides shroud which is relevant, particularly against Bant. Not to mention the obvious "enchantment," advantage as well as recursion via Replenish.
The 3rd SB Replenish seems redundant. Granted its added advantage versus Academy Ruins/Engineered Explosives shenanigans but to that end 2 Replenishes seems more than enough, not to mention Ground Seal performs the same job while also benefiting you a card and providing tech against Dredge/Extirpate etc. etc.
Since you're running a blue splash: Kataki, War's Wage < Energy Flux
Forlorn Egoist
Yeah Moats are terrible to come by. I don't own any either, but the playgroup I'm in has a few so I can borrow one or two for tournaments, though I think two is too much maindeck.
So what would you suggest I would remove instead of a Sterling Grove if I want a 3rd ET maindeck? So far I've onlyl noticed that I want SG online soon against two decks; Decks running Vindicate and Zoo with theier QPM's. Other decks I've encountered usually don't run any MB bounce.
As for the Replenish sideboard, it IS usually dead but against any deck running Pernicious Deed or Engineerd Explosives you absolutely need it to even have a chance to win, cause you just lose to Pernicious Deed in general. However, I'm willing to change it, but I'm not sure what I'm really missing in my sideboard right now. Any suggestions?
@ Energy Flux, even though it's strictly better then Kataki, it isn't a creature and therefore I feel Kataki is still more suitable. If I need even more artifact hate game 2 I would just board in Null Rod. Most artifact decks just die if you resolve it.
I was thinking that maybe Grand Abolisher would be good in the board aswell, maybe instead of the 3rd replenish? It basically gives you 1 CoS mainboard and 1 sideboard.
If you want to beat control you are going the wrong direction. You need to drop as many "must counter" cards as you can and eventually they will run out of counters then you swamp them (unless they run MD Deed or something then you probably get stomped).Quote:
Originally Posted by MVC
Brainstorm is bad here, you really want Mirri's Guile. If it sticks it gives you the best of the top 3 cards of your deck each turn and you can used fetches at the perfect time to shuffle away unwanted cards not to mention it takes a lot of the sting out of a live Jace. MD Choke is a good start, I think 1/2 of the meta being blue makes 1x Choke good enough overall even though it ends up being totally dead in some MUs. MD Blood Moon is usually a must counter. Replenish of course. Every Grove can fetch the best enchantment in your deck. Enchantress's are must counter as they turn all your throw away enchantments into draw spells. Out of the board you should bring in 3-4x Vexing Shusher and Dovescape. Enlightened Tutor is bad vs. counterspell decks. Moat leaves most control decks with only Clique or Jace as a finisher. Runed Halo is a tough card for them many times. The list goes on.
I'm not sure if I'm going in the right or wrong direction, I'm just trying to take a new approach against control decks, especially when you're fighting a war of attrition. As said before, I still have to test this thoroughly so you might be right.
However regarding Mirri's Guile, it is indeed great but as said before they're so dead if you draw multiples it goes downhill quite fast. Of course you can argue that it's an enchantment and that it replaces itself, but that's ONLY when you have at least one engine out.
As to the rest your saying, I agree that's how you should play against control when your playing the standard G/W/r list, but that's not this list so I'm gonna wait untill I have more testing done relying heavier on blue before I make a comment about whichever list works better. Maybe I'll end up switching back.
Played a small tournament couple of weeks ago with this list:
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Sterling Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
4 Elephant Grass
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Blood Moon
1 Runed Halo
1 City of Solitude
1 Words of War
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 Replenish
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Plains
9 Forest
2 Serra's Sanctum
SB:
1 Emrakul
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Dovescape
2 Choke
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Vexing Shusher
1 Lignify
1 Karmic Justice
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Aura of Silence
Went 3-1 and became 4th (Worst opp-score of 9 point people)
Top 3:
1. Sligh
2. Reanimator
3. Manaless Dredge
I played against:
UW Control: 0-2
NO RUG: 2-1
Canadian Thresh: 2-0
Zoo: 2-1
I really like the builds with the splash for Words of War (and Blood Moon).
The SB is suboptimal for sure.
I have a problem with specific SB cards. Especially when it comes to what to bring in and what to take out. (SB Oblivion Ring vs Zoo and Planeswalker ? Carpet of Flowers only vs Combo ?)
What are your experiences ? And how do you sideboard in specific matchups ?
In general I wasn't so happy with Carpet of Flowers, 2 Vexing Shushers (-1 for the next time) and Lignify. They are leaving the SB for sure.
What are your thoughts on Dovescape ? Is it worth to play in the SB ?
Vexing Shusher is a card I was heavily opposed to for a long time. The thing is, I'm currently playing him as a one of in my board now that I've adopted GSZ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjedsen
Sideboarding is rough with this deck. A lot of times it is simply working to gain small advantages. Carpet of Flowers is something I bring in against all the blue decks. It usually replaces Wild Growth/Utopia Sprawl. Lignify is something I put in the board when Reanimator wells up in the metagame if I'm too stubborn to play something else.
I still don't think Leyline of Sanctity is good enough to justify the board space over an extra Confinement.
Dovescape is something I fall in and out of like with. In theory, it's really good against the bad matchups (combo) and potentially back-breaking in the mirror. I have yet to have an amazing breakout series of games with it. I tried it back at SC Indy and never drew/played it. At the same time, I didn't play against many of the stoneblade decks I was expecting.
Mirri's Guile is not so dead in multiples as you can always hold it and draw cards later when you have an Enchantress in play or if you need to dig hard for an answer you can lay 2 and use fetchlands to see 6 cards a turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by MVC
I saw the top 16 for the latest SCG and decided Enchantress is a strong contender today. I sleeved up 75 and drove down to Chicago for a weekly event just to test because what else am I going to do on a Monday night and went 3-1-1 losing fourth round to a misplay and drew round 2 to getting slow rolled (the guy wasn't intentionally slow rolling he just didn't know better and since it was a small event I didn't make a big deal about it).
Round 1 - NO RUG - Win
Round 2 - BG Aggro - Draw
Round 3 - UW Stoneforge - Win
Round 4 - Junk Depths - Lose (On some very poor playing on my part)
Round 5 - BR Goblins - Win (I almost can't lose this matchup)
My 75
// Lands
1 [6E] Plains (2)
6 [COM] Forest (2)
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
2 [B] Savannah
1 [B] Taiga
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
// Creatures
4 [US] Argothian Enchantress
// Spells
1 [SHM] Runed Halo
4 [VI] Elephant Grass
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [CFX] Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 [ON] Words of War
1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
2 [UD] Replenish
4 [A] Wild Growth
4 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
3 [JU] Solitary Confinement
4 [ON] Enchantress's Presence
2 [LG] Moat
1 [TE] Choke
3 [IN] Sterling Grove
3 [TE] Mirri's Guile
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SHM] Runed Halo
SB: 1 [CH] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [OD] Karmic Justice
SB: 1 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 1 [OD] Ground Seal
SB: 1 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 1 [9E] Blood Moon
SB: 1 [TE] Choke
SB: 1 [DIS] Dovescape
SB: 1 [10E] Aura of Silence
SB: 3 [SHM] Vexing Shusher
I haven't tuned this deck recently and I built it about 10 mins. before I drove down because I didn't want to be late. In the end I think my recent lack of playing with the deck cost me round 4 as I made pretty bad misplays games 2&3 against what is a pretty solid matchup. If the metagame keeps looking like it did last weekend in boston I feel like Enchantress is a pretty solid contender. We have plenty of MD spells that say Progenitus and Batterskull can't attack and Misstep is more of a speedbump to this deck than an actual answer most of the time.
What does Enchantress decks lose to? i tried playing various decks against it but ended up being completely locked all the time, my enchantment removal wasnt enough, it just delayed the lock one turn.
Fast clock and well timed counters, combo, board sweepers (unless you land Karmic Justice first), early counters on card draw engine + Jace and fateseal the game away with counter backup.Quote:
Originally Posted by zathe922
Those are the things I lose 90% of my games to. The other 10% is either nut draws by opponent or bad draws by me or misplays.
Is there another primer on this deck? Don't get me wrong, I think the "current one" on the front page has some value, but it's almost 5 years old and quite a few things have changed since then. I might want to pick up the deck at some point, but I would be a new Enchantress player and don't want to count on old strategy/advice.
Enchantress is one of the hardest decks to play. I would put it a close second to Solidarity as the hardest decks I've played since I started. My #1 piece of advice is to play often, a primer on Enchantress would have to be a million words long to cover everything and a lot of things you just have to learn by playing some games out. Not to mention the DTB change every 10 days and the most important part about playing Enchantress is knowing when the field is not favorable and putting the deck down for a while to play something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordofthepit